  Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1178 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
Any time I go to one of the casinos it seems like a lot of the money gambled is local. Certainly most of the license plates are local. I'm sure between the players clubs and W2Gs written to winners the houses have some idea of where they draw from, but I doubt that info gets made public. Do you think the casinos have been beneficial overall or do you suspect tey have just prettied up their corners while funneling money out of the area? | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 339 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
In my opinion, Casinos weren't built because they were good. They were built to keep that money from going to Windsor, that's all. The only people who would drive from out of the area are maybe folks from Toledo. Everyone else is closer to some other Casino. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 518 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
The only one benefiting from casino operations are the employees, vendors, suppliers and the house of course. House rules! Game over. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1039 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.79.9 |
The casinos were built to tap into all those autoworker pensions. The money is going to the casino owners out of state, instead of to businesses here where the broke gamblers would otherwise be shopping. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 129 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Ahem - you're forgetting who the biggest beneficiaries really are! The City of Detroit and the State of Michigan collect 24 percent of all Detroit casino gambling revenues. Their original 18% cut wasn't enough, so when govt. budgets got tight in 2004 they upped it to 24% and as a result, hundreds of casino workers were laid off. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 985 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Good effect... Occupies buildings downtown which would otherwise be vacant, brings people into the city, provides massive amounts of money to the city and state, creates construction jobs, and permanent hotel, restuarant, casino jobs, brings people and entertainment to the city, helps to make Detroit a destination | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1179 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
nowhere near there yet suppose it makes the city a 50 mile destination in competition with Windsor, but certainly not drawing away from Soaring Eagle or other casinos I've also heard quite a few accents in the pits -I'm sure outsiders have been brought in for some jobs | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 986 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
No problem if outsiders come for jobs, considering the population has plummeted. And no, Detroit is not a destination city, but the casinos help to create that feeling that detroit is looking for | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.8.7.53 |
Lilpup, Please define 'outsiders'. later - naturalsister | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1181 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
outsiders meaning employees from other casino locations relocated here instead of using local hires not entirely unexpected given lack of experienced casino supervisory workers here | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 679 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.214.106 |
The net effect of the the casinos has been positive. The tax revenue, jobs, and new business for suppliers, created by the casinos, is huge.
The vast majority of Detroit casino money stays in Michigan. The Ilitch family owns Motor City Casino, and Greektown Casino is owned by the Sault Tribe and few other local investors. MGM is the only Detroit casino with ownership outside of Michigan. The profits sent out of Michigan by MGM Grand account for maybe 2% of the total revenue generated by the Detroit casinos.
The casinos did bring in some management/supervisory people from other areas for the initial openings, due to the lack of local experience, but the vast majority of casino employees have been locals from day 1. Now that the casinos have been open for a few years, very few outsiders are brought in for Detroit casino jobs.
You can't determine the tourist potential before the permanent casinos are finished. The Detroit casinos bring in busses full of people from other states every single day, but that is just a fraction of the potential. When the Detroit casinos can offer hotel packages, we will see a significant increase in gamblers from outside the area. | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 1147 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
It's is amazing how many people are being brought in by busses. The casinos are fast becoming a popular destination to outside tourists. I guarantee that once the hotels are up and running more people will be coming to Detroit to spend the weekend. We fail to realize that MGM has said that there will be Vegas style venues within their walls and first rate entertainment mixed with good restaurants will definitely equate to over night visits in those establishments. I think it would be beneficial to use other hotels for overflow and allow them to offer Casino packages as well. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 29 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 68.250.8.47 |
My freind's parents live in Youngstown, Ohio. They take bus trips to Detroit to go to the casinos. Usually just day trips, but they have spent the night. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 203 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.232 |
The most expensive development in Michigan today is the MGM Casino. (~$750 Million if I'm not mistaken). And even if we only draw crowds from the surrounding suburbs, isn't it beneficial, since otherwise, they may not have spent any money in Detroit? Not to mention that the skyline of Detroit will soon be drastically different (hopefully for the better) with the permanent casinos. Of course, there is a social cost to casinos. People losing life savings, filing for bankruptcy, etc. I recognize, again, that public policy is almost always shades of gray, and these are the conflicting results that we must balance. | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 1149 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
I am glad you mentioned the skyline. I wonder if the Casinos will make that much of an impact on the skyline due to the fact that the buildings seem so much set back. I know from my view...I have two Casinos in view of my fron view and that is very beneficial to me. The Greektown Casino may have the best chance of showing off to the Canadians due to where it is being placed. Either way..I can't wait to see teh changes. | ||
Dillpicklesoup Member Username: Dillpicklesoup Post Number: 114 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 64.7.187.209 |
Casinos are nothing more than a different kind of poor tax- The probability of hitting it big at a casino are about the same as being struck by lightning- ditto for the lottery- a state sanctioned poor tax- want to do something good with your money? invest it or give it to the church.  | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1601 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
And what feeling is that, exactly? Atlantic City without the beach? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 818 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
The casinos' positive impact can be significant. Check out this story: NEW CASINOS: JACKPOT FOR WORKERS 3,200 jobs boost sagging construction industry http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060710/B IZ/607100351 | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1995 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Folks don't forget the majority of money spent at the casino in Canada was from Detroit and SEM. If people are going to gamble it is better that it benefits Detroit and Michigan then Canada. That is the only reason why I was for the Casinos because I rather the money spent in Michigan then Canada. The only thing keeping Detroit budget afloat is casino tax revenues. Casinos are one of the only industries that receive 0 tax breaks from the state. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1002 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Danindc, No, Detroit is trying to become a city for which everyone can come and enjoy themselves, whether it is museums, casinos, stadiums, restuarants and bars, etc, or jobs, and residential opportunities. Its not that hard to figure out. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1602 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
So when do the roller coasters open? Wouldn't it make more sense to let Michiganders spend their money at home instead of Cedar Point? I'm being a smartass, but other cities have figured out how to be vibrant without trapping people in three particular buildings. Atlantic City actually IS an "entertainment destination", moreso than Detroit, but the town is still a shithole. Perhaps you can explain the disconnect to me, motorcitymayor, since "it's not that hard to figure out"? If I'm not mistaken, Casino Windsor is still taking in the same amount of money on a daily basis (someone correct me if I'm wrong) as they were in early 1998. Wouldn't this mean that the money the Detroit casinos are reaping is instead diverted from other, more productive, economic uses? | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1003 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Read the article... 3200 Construction jobs 2100 NEW permanent jobs when completed, on top of the other thousands already employed. Of the employees at least 50% have to be, by law, Detroit residents, therefore increasing the economy of the neighborhoods which allows for a better life for Detroiters. It is one small step in the recovery/revitilization process of the city Casinos arent for everyone, but it allows those interested to come to Detroit rather than Soaring Eagle, or Windsor, or wherever. Not to mention, without the tax dollars Detroit would be in way deeper waters with the budget. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1603 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Are casinos the only way to generate these relatively low-paying jobs, though? Are there other ways to create the same number of jobs without removing so much cash flow from the local economy? Is there an alternative to boosting the coffers of the City and State? Since the answers to the above are all "yes", casinos are obviously not the only solution. True, jobs are being "created", but it's not as if the casinos are employing people off the street. The casinos are employing people who were most likely already employed in other, similar-paying jobs. Those jobs could be clerical, or in the service industry, retail, or whatever. The point is, there is a cost to the remainder of the local economy, due to diverted resources (both fiscal and human). Of course, the pro-casino people never recognize this, nor do they recognize the massive profits achieved by MGM and Mandalay, which leave the State of Michigan permanently and thus never reinvested. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1997 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Please list out the things that would actually work for the city. Dan like always you don't understand the market. Please tell why people that want to gamble would come to Detroit if there were no casinos. A lot of people that come to the casino would not come to the city if they were not there. People are spending money that might be spent in another state. A couple of your points are wrong. Detroit casino have stolen market share away from Windsor. Not all the jobs are low paying. 10 to 15 dollar an hour job with benefits is pretty good for a city with the poverty level of Detroit. When you make a point don't think about Chicago, NY and DC. Think about Detroit and what will work for it. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1004 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Dan, if you read the just posted article, you would see that the construction jobs were not given to people already making tons of money. According to the article, many of the construction workers had seen their salaries drop by 50% until the casinos hired them. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1604 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I'm not arguing about the construction jobs. How much does a table dealer make, though? Ten bucks an hour? That's likely comparable to what they were making at their previous job.
What aspects of the local market don't I understand? That Detroit is undereducated, has poor transportation, or is economically balkanized? The way you phrase your statement, it seems to have a pre-ordained solution--that gambling money is necessary to sustain the local economy. Did you think that maybe it's not as important to "draw" people into town as it is to keep money cycling through the local economy repeatedly?
What is that supposed to mean? Does Detroit not function on the same principles of economics as the rest of the universe? | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 530 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.164.188.114 |
Danindc makes good points about casino gaming and whether it should form a piece of any region's revitalization strategy. But making the choice to use gambling is kind of like jumping off a cliff. Once you do it, it's very difficult to go back. Detroit has already made the choice, for better or worse. In this context, I find it somewhat pointless to discuss whether gambling is good for Detroit and this region. The casinos are here and will be a part of this region for decades to come. We now need to master how best to leverage their presence to improve our economy and quality of life while minimizing the harmful fallout. As for Atlantic City, many lessons can be learned. Gaming has existed there for close to 30 years. Detroit accomplished far more in the way of civic improvements and revitalization in its run-up to the Super Bowl than Atlantic City has achieved in those 30 years. Corruption and poor political leadership have held that city back. But make no mistake, race has played a paramount role as well. The politicians in Trenton have no problem accepting the tax revenues while for the most part sloughing off AC's problems as issues requiring local solutions. Like many other urban areas, the schools are a major anchor weighing down the local's ability to make progress. AC residents and families who achieve a middle class income through casino employment usually head for suburban communities in order to secure a better education. Atlantic City is an amazing example of the negative power of a low achieving school system. Think of it. The city is on the beach, contains entertainment options galore and should have no problems through tourism and gaming from achieving budget surpluses for years to come. Yet, the place languishes. Even if the place can't attract middle class families to strengthen the schools, why can't it attract some of the region's millions of empty nesters or retirees who are looking for a retirement near the beach. Hmmm, could it be that racial diversity isn't at the top of the wish list? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1605 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
If that doesn't sound familiar to everyone reading this thread, you probably shouldn't comment on the topic. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Right now the casinos are a zero sum gain from my view. Only one is locally owned, by Marian Illitch. If Barden got a casino, he would have been paying city taxes on his earnings as he was a city resident at the time of application. I don't know where he currently lives, but I would not blame him if he left. Profits from the casinos mostly go to outside the region; with MGM in Vegas getting a nice chunk and the Keewadin band in the UP getting another nice chunk. Of the taxes, much goes to the state coffers, which can be spent elsewhere in the state, and Detroit gets a portion of it as well. Part of the deal to get this was to reduce the income tax; this has been done and the income tax is currently .6 percent less than it was before. The reason why this is not enough to make up for the holes in Detroit's budget is many folks that are employed continue to leave the City, leaving those who are left to shoulder more of the burden. The overall economic impact has not yet been felt. Detroit will be placed much higher in the convention and visitors business once the Hotels and convention spaces are finished. With the additional room, we will be able to better compete for business when COBO is taken over for two to three months of the year for the auto show. These additions will spin off additional jobs for people in the hospitality industry and the suppliers to the industry (with a nice bump for everyone from cab companies to IT folks who set up for technical displays for trade shows). | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1606 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I'm not necessarily writing off casinos as a tool for economic development. What I'm contesting is that everyone wants to point to two things--jobs and taxes--and immediately conclude that casinos are good. Where is the thorough cost-benefit analysis? If I can remember back 10 years, we were told that casinos would provide all kinds of spinoff development like restaurants and hotels--maybe even some retail development. Can any of the casino backers explain why, despite increased numbers of visitors to Detroit, there haven't been ANY spinoff developments in eight years? Bueller? Bueller? I'm just saying, that as with any sound and reasonable economic development plan/scheme, a thorough cost-benefit analysis must be considered before embarking. And I don't agree that casinos are in Detroit to stay. They could easily be made illegal if found to have a large enough negative impact (threat of lawsuits from the owner/operators nothwithstanding). | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 770 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.221.183.220 |
I know from doing tours of Detroit with people from outside of the area that they ALL ask where the casinos are. Additionally, I have helped organize group meeting in the Detroit area and we always mention the casinos as something to do and there is lots on interest. The casinos, with all their problems, do help the overall entertainment mix in the area. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 13 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
I know my cousin in the Pawn business does better than ever! Is that economic development too? Minor restraunt spinoff can be seen in Greektown; but there was already a pretty good restraunt crowd there before. Retail has improved slightly in that area as well. The rest of the restraunts and retail can be traced mostly to synergy created by Compuware and GM centralizing everything downtown. You can also make the case that Carls is hurt by the Motor City, as the additional traffic from the Lodge freeway at night blocks those who want to go out to eat. those folks probably say forget Carls, and end up in greektown. One may need to look at things such as the Hilton Garden Inn or the Holiday Inn and upgrade to other hotels and ask, are these the result of casino traffic? I can't honestly say I've seen any survey done, though perhaps the visitors and convention bureau has done this. Room occupancy rates could be another factor to look at; or number of people served at Pegasus on an average night. I don't think the data is there, or can be constructed in a meaningful way to support to what degree the casinos have benefited the city. What about alternatives? For example, what if we went full into showcasing musical talent (i.e., filling all existing venues nightly, expansion of the movement and other music festivals, would the return have been better? Could we have had the dollars exchange more frequently at the local level to provide even more jobs? | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1998 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Dan again you show your ignorance, just because economic principles are the same doesn't mean what works in one city will work in another city. There has to be a market for it. You never consider market factors into your ideas so what will work in NY and Chicago won't necessarily work here.
Please show me your proof that no development happened because of the casinos. Go to Greektown and ask the restaurant owners that would have to close down if they were not able to accept casino vouchers. How do you know the money invested in Greektown would have happed if the casino wasn’t there? Where is your proof that a person making $15/hrs with benefits would be able to get a similar job if the casino were not here? Stop talking out of your ass please. If you are going to make statements actually have some facts. No one in the fucking world knows if Detroit is better off or worse with the casinos. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1607 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
There's a market for crystal meth wherever dealers set up shop, too. Should Detroit legalize meth in order to tax the hell out of it? After all, God only knows what meth dealers would do for a living if they didn't have rocks to sell. Merchantgander, YOU were the one who said "NY and Chicago"--not me. I actually made a comparison of Detroit to "Atlantic City", but you would rather childlishly call names and say "nyah nyah" without any counterargument. If you want to rely on a crude level of discourse, then I can't help you. Thanks to those who actually take this topic seriously and are willing to consider questions and points of view that may or may not agree with what they already know. More ignorance:
The above quote is from Earl Grinols, who has a PhD in economics from MIT. He has studied externalities of casino gambling fairly extensively (about 15 years), and has begun objective models for a rigorous cost-benefit analysis. The above link is from here (NOTE: Not NYC or Chicago): http://www.limaohio.com/story. php?IDnum=27279 But, ya know, it's easier to make shit up. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1005 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Crystal Meth, and a large legitimate business are completely different, danindc. All of your examples are full of bullshit. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1006 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Crystal Meth, and a large legitimate business are completely different, danindc. All of your examples are full of bullshit. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1999 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Dan your problem is you continually state your opinion as fact and never put real data forward. Dan please read your comments you arrogant ignorant prick. You have not stated one fucking fact. Everything you write is your opinion. Please realize that and no one on here gives a shit about a dickhead from DC. The problem is when someone questions your stupid ass opinion you play the victim card like a little bitch. Now start getting some actual fucking proof the casinos have hurt Detroit or shut the fuck up.
Here are a few of my responses please point out what is made up. Please go through and poit out all the shit I made up. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1608 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Well, the quote from Grinols that I arrogantly made up (because I'm such a prick like that), pointed that the costs of gambling are typically triple what the benefits are. Does quoting a researcher with 15 years experience in the field not count as fact? If the restaurants in Greektown are benefitting from the casinos, then why are there no new restaurants near MGM or MotorCity? But, I'm the arrogant bastard apparently, because I happen to live somewhere else. I'm full of shit, somehow, and don't understand Detroit, yet you can't really explain how. If all you can do is call names, maybe you should go play with the kids. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2001 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Again Dan you avoid the question I have asked Please point out the shit I made up. Please tell me where Detroit would be able to create the same jobs and same amount of revenue. I have asked the questions and like always you have no answer. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2002 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Dan you didn't read that article did you? I didn't see any numbers related to Detroit or casinos. Remember most research papers start with a thesis and then have a goal of proving it right or wrong based on the researchers intended goal (numbers are easy to manipulate). But here are some of my favorite quotes from the article you posted.
Again show me some facts or one study that shows that casinos have hurt the city of Detroit. (Message edited by Merchantgander on July 10, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1609 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Well, I would start with industries that are being deprived of money that is being spent at the casinos: restaurants, theaters, retail establishments, even vendors at Tigers games (who, despite having the best record in baseball are drawing less fans than some last-place teams). All of these would employ the same people who are working at the casinos for comparable wages, without costing triple the benefits, as noted above. MGM, you are oversimplifying the argument by assuming that money=good. You haven't considered any externalities, any shifting or reallocation of entertainment dollars, or any negative impact whatsoever. Just saying "Detroit needs casinos because our money is going to Canada" is a specious argument, as the negative impacts are going to Canada as well. Sure, Casino Windsor took somewhat of a hit because of the Detroit casinos, but they still do a healthy business. This means that additional money is being put into gambling--money that used to cycle through the local economy many more times than it does now. You also claim that restaurants in Greektown have benefitted from the casino. Perhaps you didn't consider that people are spending less money on meals overall, in order to have more money for gambling (that was the gist of an article I read today). If there is indeed, spinoff, then why is there none by MGM or MotorCity Casino? Casinos are designed to be self-contained drive-in, drive-out entertainment. The idea of spinoff is bunk, at best. Now, can you explain to me the Special Detroit Market Forces I don't understand that make all of the above a trivial point? Maybe you'd also like to take the opportunity to tell Detroitplanner and Swingline that they're arrogant and full of shit, too (but maybe it's okay they have an opinion, since they live in Detroit. Or do I just not understand that either???). | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1007 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Umm, there is no shortage of vendors at Comerica, and attendance is up 21% already. The next home stand will be packed with the fireworks this weekend and then the White Sox coming into town... The casinos are not depriving $$ from the tigers, in fact many times I will hear people say, "hey after the game lets check out the casino," which is a big improvement over "lets get the hell out of Detroit" | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 14 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
"Maybe you'd also like to take the opportunity to tell Detroitplanner and Swingline that they're arrogant and full of shit, too (but maybe it's okay they have an opinion, since they live in Detroit. Or do I just not understand that either???)." Good point, Adam Smith never lived here as well, I guess he don't know econ either. BTW, I'm thrilled the Tigers are putting butts in the seats again. However, the new stadium is designed to be much smaller than the old one in terms of number of seats. We're up 21 percent, thats great; but after putting out years of a defective product, and Detroit being sports hungry; you think they would be up much more than that. You did make an excellent point about the Tigers helping the Casino, but what is not known about how the Casino hurts the Tigers. No one stands outside the gate looking in saying to their friends "if we did not blow all our money at the casino, we could be in their blowing our money on ovverpriced hot dogs and pepsi" | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1009 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Well, the attendance will continue to skyrocket. Proof- I have a season ticket plan which provides free vouchers and the ability to switch games...well, the tigers keep on mailing cards saying that because of increased ticket sales, I can no longer use those vouchers for certain series. You can bet this next homestand will pack the stadium, and in turn pack the bars, restuarants, and casinos downtown. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2004 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Again Dan you have no proof that casinos are bad for Detroit. Now where is your proof that "industries that are being deprived of money that is being spent at the casinos: restaurants, theaters, retail establishments" would have opened if casinos did not exist. Tiger’s attendance is affected by a team that was horrible for ten years. Attendance is better this year then last year and has been getting better as the year goes on. In fact they have actually sold out a few games this year. Bad example by you. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/ attendance Tigers are 17th out of 30 but I noticed that they have more fans attend games then some other cities that don't have casinos. Dan just admit it that there is no proof that Casino are bad for Detroit. Go ahead and admit that I am right. This is what I stated earlier:
Now say it with me here I will help you out just say this out loud "it is my opinion that casinos were a negative for Detroit. I have no proof of it is simply my opinion. It is alright for people to have an opposite opinion of mine I will just choose to ignore what their opinion is." Now don't you feel better? The first step is admitting you have a problem. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 349 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
Attendance has been way up since they came back from the last extended road trip...what, like 3 weeks ago or so? It was admittedly disappointing before that, as the Tigers were stuck with a bunch of early home games, when the weather isn't so great in Detroit, and people weren't confident in the Tigers yet. That helped to drag the averages down, but it's been way up lately. Over the season, they're averaging 69% full...considering the slow start (in attendance), that's not bad. I bet we'll see record breaking crowds for the Sox series (maybe they won't break Opening Day records, that all depends on how many SRO tickets they decide to sell...my money is on them being able to fill as many as they want to sell) Oh, and there are no last place teams above the Tigers in attendance. The only teams bad enough to mention are the Cubs (and Wrigley will always sell out) and the LA Angels. Seattle is only now in last place because the Tigers just put them there, and even so, they're only 2.5 games from first. Quitcherbitchen. (Message edited by focusonthed on July 10, 2006) | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2005 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Detroitplanner let me help you out because you need it. You don't have to live in a city but you have to understand the areas market. Simple example that both of you might be able to understand. One city might be able to command 500 per sq/f that doesn't mean every city can get 500 sq/f. Economic principles do not change but market forces are different in every city (demand is not the same all over). This is what determines what is economically feasible city to city. What might be bad in one city doesn’t make it bad in another. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 974 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
No, that's only because they charge $8 for a beer. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 16 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Can we have this thread closed?? Y'all are going to just raise each others blood pressure over arguing minor things. | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 198 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
Ron QUOTE; The most expensive development in Michigan today is the MGM Casino. (~$750 Million if I'm not mistaken). How much are they raking in if they can pop 750 mil for a new building? I'll tell you what, travel the expressway and see the cars that back up on those ramps on Friday and Saturday night loaded with Detroiter's just waiting to give their money to the casino's, they aren't Caddy's, Lincoln's or Benz's, that's for sure. casino's are doing an Atlantic City or Gary, job on Motown. I guess it's not the fault of the casino's though if people are stupid. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6317 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
This might be off-topic, but MOTHER OF GOD WOULD PACY PLEASE LEARN HOW TO USE AN APOSTRPHE? Not every word that ends in the letter "s" needs an apostrophe. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1610 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Detroit still can't balance its budget, has high unemployment, and middle class flight continues--ergo there's no "proof" the casinos are good for Detroit, either. Is it my opinion casinos are bad for Detroit (or anywhere else)? Yes. The evidence certainly seems to point that way. What's not being noted here is that there are NUMEROUS studies on the benefits of casinos, and very few on the negative impacts. Casino owners have a nasty habit of paying for studies that tout the benefits of casinos, so that they'll be allowed to open more locations and make more money (kinda neat, huh?). Not too many people have a financial stake in touting the negative externalities of casinos, though, and the cities and states certainly don't want to be confronted with contradictory research when there are mathematically illiterate people to rip off. Independent research firms aren't being paid to slam casinos, only to tout them (much like convention centers, actually). As a result, there are but a few professors in the nation who have actually studied the issue, Grinols being one of them. The money the casinos are making isn't coming from thin air. It is most certainly diverted from other uses, and being funneled off to Vegas (or Northern Michigan, as the case may be). | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1653 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
Or to 2211 Woodward? | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 200 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
itsjeff QUOTE: This might be off-topic, but MOTHER OF GOD WOULD PACY PLEASE LEARN HOW TO USE AN APOSTRPHE? I'm dismayed your fixated on me and it is "off topic" but since we are "off topic" MOTHER OF GOD, WOULD ITSJEFF PLEASE LEARN HOW TO SPELL "APOSTROPHE"? (HE ALSO COULD HAVE USED A COMMA AFTER "GOD" IN HIS POST TOO.) Check yourself before correcting others. I know you get a charge out of being petty though. Wow, you must have a Master's Degree in grammar from Petty U :-) | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6318 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
Compared to your ignorant ass, I'm a Ph.D. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2006 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.91.250.131 |
This has been going on even before the casinos were here so I don't see how these problems were brought on by the casinos. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1611 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I don't see how they were brought on by the casinos either. They weren't fixed by the casino revenue, either, though. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2007 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.91.250.131 |
Agreed but I am not the one that brought it up as "ergo-- there's no proof". Those problems existed before which makes your post 1610 inaccurate but your post 1611 is accurate you should have stated that the first time. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1613 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
No, my post 1610 was not inaccurate. If the casinos were positively benefitting Detroit, wouldn't it be reasonable to infer that the increased revenues reduced pre-existing problems of budget deficits, unemployment, and spurring redevelopment? After all, when casino promoters were campaigning for legalization in the mid-1990s, they did promise increased tax revenue, increased employment, and spinoff development. I think it's a fair question. Does anyone have numbers handy? | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1012 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
It is obvious that the casinos have helped with the budget deficit and unemployment. Without the casinos Detroit would have 100's of millions more in debt. Without the casinos, thousands of construction workers, and thousands of permanent workers would be jobless. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1614 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
^^^All things that should be borne out by numbers, then, especially if they're so obvious. Of course, then one would have to quantify the negative impacts to accurately measure the positivity/negativity of the casinos. For example, how much additional money has been spent on police overtime, gambling addiction, welfare payments, etc. since casinos opened in Detroit. This is a question that requires a rigorous academic analysis. OBVIOUSLY, there are no obvious answers. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2422 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.222 |
Detroitplanner, where did you get your information on Carl's?? Last I heard they were doing fine and that the Casino actually helped their business. I would think that having a busy neighborhood would help Carl's, cuz that stretch of Grand River was certainly a dead zone before MotorCity arrived. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1615 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
An article from the April 9, 2006 Philadelphia Inquirer, as they approach legalization of slot machine gaming: http://www.philly.com/mld/inqu irer/news/special_packages/slo ts/14300898.htm | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 201 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
itsjeff QUOTE;Compared to your ignorant ass, I'm a Ph.D. You make mistakes correcting me and I'M ignorant? So, aside from your being corrected and revealed to be thin-skinned you now claim, by virtue of your post, to be intimate with my ass. Your Ph.D must be in proctology :-) | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 509 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.246.29.185 |
You also can't overlook the accessibility of casino jobs. Most comparable paying service jobs are located suburbs and in a city where 1/3 of the residents don't have a car and the lack of decent mass transit, it's major contributor to unemployment. It's certainly beneficial to the city to have jobs for residents that don't require travel to Troy or Auburn Hills. Also as others have mentioned until the permanents are completed we won't know the full impact. The addition of hotels, convention space, and theaters changes these to true entertainment complexes completely changing that nature of casino's in the city. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 260 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.212.35.13 |
One of Guindon's greatest Free Press cartoons, published a couple of months before the temporary casinos opened.... Panel 1 - A guy is withdrawing a wad of cash from the teller at his bank. Panel 2 - Same guy dropping his cash down a sewer grate, bill by bill. Caption: "Things to do while waiting for the casinos to open." | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6320 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
The City of Detroit for FY 2005-2006 collected $153 million from the Wagering Excise tax alone against a total revenue of $1.373 billion. This represents 11% of he total revenues of the City for FY 2005-2006. That does not include property and payroll taxes paid by the casinos and their employees respectively. Detroit's FY 2005-2006 final deficit was $63 million. Without casinos the defict would have been closer to $220 million. Moving forward, the excise tax is conservatively estimated to total $190 million in FY 2008-2009, the first year the permanent casinos are expected to be open. That is nearly equivalent to the expected property tax revenues of $197 million for the same year. Anyone who thinks that the City would be solvent right now without the Casinos is mistaken. Keeping the City out of bankruptcy while seeing a minor but statistically insignificant increase in the regional "reporting" of gambling addiction is a positive net effect. Keep in mind most casino agreements for most regions / cities require them to do one or more of the following: 1. Establish and fund the protocol and mechanism for tracking a largely previously untracked phenomenon. 2. Establish and fund hotlines for gambling addiction counseling that never existed before. No wonder that there is now a reporting and tracking mechanism and widely advertised support system that there would be an increase in the reported occurrences of gambling addiction. The fact that the increases are not statistically significant leads me to believe that number of new cases of gambling addiction has been negligible. | ||
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect Post Number: 207 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.243.32.9 |
Casinos are part of a major con that has been forced down the peopls throat. They are a building type designed to turn people into losers. They lie to people (You can get rich quick and without great effort.) They pay off politicians to allow those things to get built. (They were voted down several times in Detroit before Lansing let them do it). They have a minimal effect on an economy. They don’t really create anything; they just suck away other people’s income. The ads show happy people having a great time, but in reality, go to a casino, and the people look miserable. How interesting that an activity once the vocation of gangsters and criminals and other low-lifes, is now fully entrenched sector of corporate America. I understand what people are saying about adults being allowed to gamble out of their own free will. And the fact that when something is desired people will do anything they can to get it, even if it is illegal. Gambling and taking risks are a normal thing that people do to in life. Starting a business is a risk. Getting married is taking a gamble. But these are risks that you have a much better chance of being successful at. And in the longer run much better for society. What the Casinos do is comodify the natural risk taking drive, that people have, and stack the deck against them. They want to make losers. They will take every penny a person has without blinking an eye. The issue that gamblers gamble out of there own free will also does not take into account that the Casinos make over 50% of their profit from people who have a “problem” with Gambling. For every problem gambler there is a mortgage not paid, a kid’s education not paid for, a car repossessed, and on and on. They make more misery for the world. You see it in the faces of the people in those places. They are horrible ugly building types. Ever see a nice Casino? There has never been one. They are designed to destroy the sense of time, grab people and hold them, to keep people from thinking, and to loose impulse control. What a despicable way to make a living. Aside from Vegas, which was nothing to start with, there has never been an effective urban redevelopment plan based on Casinos. Not one! | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1014 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
DaninDc, Itsjeff just provided the number that we were arguing all day. Pretty clear now, isnt it? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 135 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
According to the Detroit Auditor General, the final 2005-2006 deficit was likely to be about $136 million, since none of the deficit reduction strategies implicit in that $63 million budgeted deficit number were implemented in time. That means that without the casino revenue, the deficit for the 05-06 budget year would have approached a staggering $290 million dollars. Call me mistaken if you want, but I believe that the city of Detroit would be much closer to "solvency" today if there were no casinos and their Assuming no casinos, the mayor and council would have found it politically impossible to justify approving a 2005-06 budget with a quarter-billion dollar deficit while identifying (as they did this past year) only $69 million in deficit-reduction initiatives to be implemented during the year. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1189 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
http://resourcescommittee.hous e.gov/archives/109/testimony/2 006/fultonsheen.htm Found this while Googling for info relevant to this thread (was actually looking for info on the spike in local bankruptcies a few years ago) | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 695 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
This x-Detroiter living in Las Vegas is chuckling over the nasty words hurled at the casino industry in some of the above posts. I enjoy casinos greatly, play only with expendable money, and can lay claim to ten grand being my biggest hit so far on the slots. I'd rather spend a great evening in a casino blowing fifty bucks than I would paying triple that to go to some rock concert and lose my hearing. Hey, to each his own.  | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2008 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Dan your statement was inaccurate because you were saying that the casino caused those things. If they already existed then the casino didn't cause them. Now you are accurate to say that casino to cure all of those things but there is no proof that all of those things wouldn't be worse if the casino didn't exist. Now I do find it hard to believe that Detroit would be able to make up the tax revenue because casino pay taxes on gross receipts (before expenses), pay an city income tax like other companies, pay property taxes, forgave the city debt and allowed them to keep all the land they accumulated on the river, and set up a multi million dollar fund for the creation of small business in the city. I'm sure I forgot some of the other things that came up in the casino agreement. I'm sure if gamblingman was posting on here he would know more about the casino agreements. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1040 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.79.9 |
I know I'm late on this, but Pacy, you don't need apostrophes when a word is plural, only when it is possessive. Got it? That means you drive your Cadillacs without an apostrophe, you eat your Coney dogs without an apostrophe. Only trot that sucker out when you go to work at Ford's, say. When in doubt, LEAVE IT OUT. It's painful to read your copy. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2009 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Since everyone is helping out pacy one more tip. Use this for quoting \ quote{Your text} but no space between the \ and the word quote. | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 202 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 136.181.195.84 |
Pffft QUOTE: When in doubt, LEAVE IT OUT. It's painful to read your copy. To think how our ancestor's built a country out of raw wilderness and worked from sun-up to sun down leads me to believe you have women's hand's if it gives you "pain" when you read. Maybe you are just too delicate. By the way, is "Got it?" (your post) a sentence? subject-predicate | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4517 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.84.88 |
Those 3 Detroit caSINos can only 5% revenue to City of Detroit. And 95% goes to Vegas. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6325 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
The plural of "ancestor" is, shockingly, "ancestors." Not, "ancestor's." Is there anything we can say or do to help you remember that? Maybe if I made some sock puppets and came up with a jingle? | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 203 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 136.181.195.84 |
itsjeff QUOTE:The plural of "ancestor" is, shockingly, "ancestors." Not, "ancestor's." Is there anything we can say or do to help you remember that? Maybe if I made some sock puppets and came up with a jingle? GOTCHA! I did that on purpose. If you were a fish I'd be reeling in a big sucker right now!:-) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1616 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Mikeg, you took the words out of my mouth. How many of you guys would start a business if your accountant only told you the potential revenues you would earn, and neglected to inform you about rent, taxes, insurance, payroll, and other operating costs you would incur? I'm glad that some of you are confident enough to make informed decisions with only half the information available. | ||
Missnmich Member Username: Missnmich Post Number: 525 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.32.180.75 |
Whoa! Is it hot and humid in Detroit today? Everybody, cool off ... And it[']sjeff, I love you to death, but unless you belong to "it", you're a fine one to be lecturing about the proper use of the apostrophe! Pedantic in the Ozarks ... | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
When I originally registered, you couldn't have punctuation marks in a username. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2425 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.195 |
Sumotech.... um... I think you got your history wrong.... the 1996 state referendum (i.e. statewide vote), where 52% of the people who went to the polls voted in favor of casinos. Governor Engler was not pleased, but the vote of the people of the state of Michigan is why we have casinos today. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2012 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Dan why do you continually make decision with only half the information? Dan you need to understand the big picture, you have to take everything into account when forming an opinion or making a decision. The fact that you an agreed with Mikeg proves how little you understand the city you continually post about. Mikeg makes an assumption the a city government that has been avoiding hard decisions for over 25 years would have all of a sudden became smart and decide that they need to cut cost and balance the budget. The CC and the mayor cannot balance the budget with casino funds what the hell makes you thin k they would be able to do it without them. If they cannot agree to balance the budget today why would you assume that with a 100 mil less they would be able to do it. I can tell you have no concept of finances. Here is an easier one for you lets see if you can get is it easier to cut 100 mil or 200 mil from a budget. If you understood Detroit bureaucracy works or politics worked you would see how flawed Mikeg logic was with that statement. P.S. I believe the city government in Detroit sucks in no way do I make excuses for their incompetence. I simply don’t believe and there is not track record or proof that incompetent people become more competent when things become harder. | ||
Missnmich Member Username: Missnmich Post Number: 526 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.32.180.75 |
itsjeff- Oh yeah, huh? That's why I couldn't be Miss'n'mich when I signed up. It took my daughter to figure this out! Mea culpa, my friend ... | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 205 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 136.181.195.84 |
missmich, itsokay itsjeff doesnt happen toagree withmy viewpoint's so hetries toshow meup. WhenI throwit rightback athim hehas a littlegirl hissyfit. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 350 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
HelpIcan'tfindthespacebar. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
Pacy, I wish you could understand how annoying it is to read bad writing. It's like listening to sixth graders play Mozart. Maybe if you were more literate, you'd understand. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 699 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Hey, gang, wouldn't it just be easier to ignore posters who annoy you for whatever reason? That's what I do. It just ain't worth getting all steamed up over cyberwords; life's too short. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
I could ignore the bad grammar. Or I could ignore the constant negativity. But I just don't have it in me to do both. If your only purpose on this board is to do nothing but bitch, while being practically illiterate, it just... I... you don't.... oh, nevermind. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2014 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Ray I wish I could ignore Dan but now that Skulker has left someone has to pick up the ball and run with it. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
I think MikeG's idea is excellent. I, too, wish I had more money and less debt. The obvious solution is for me to take an 11% pay cut. That will force me to cut even more spending, therefore making things better. DaninDC seems to think there are portions of the equation (costs) that are missing in making a determination of whether the casinos have been a benefit or detriment to the City. So far we know that the casinos bring in more than 11% of the city's total revenue and have provided over 3,000 jobs. That's the income side. So what's the cost side? The expense side includes increased police presence in and around the casinos. That's paid for by a fund created by the casinos from what I understand. The expenses also include some social and monetary costs through increased gambling addiction. So far there has not been a statistically significant increase in gambling addiction even though there is now rigorous tracking of addiction as there was not in the past. Also, the casinos pick up the tab for the crisis hot lines and the monitoring of the addiction rates, so that's not a cost to the government. Using Dan's logic, smoking, drinking, internet use and any other form of activity that is addictive out to be curtailed or abolished. We see how well the ban on drinking worked. People are worried that the money flowing into the casinos is taking money away from other economic activity. Seeing as it is mostly discretionary entertainment money, I don't see how it affects in any meaningful way things like milk, home or automobile sales. Its simply transferring "mad" money from one entertainment form to another. Should we ban Netflix because its taking money from movie theaters and Blockbuster Video? Two of the three casinos are owned locally. That profit stays in the area (remember that 24% of the gross receipts stays in the area in the form of the wagering excise tax). The profit from the other one goes somewhere else like Las Vegas.....kinda like the profits from Blockbuster Video, Star Theaters, and Applebees goes back to corporate headquarters that are NOT in the region. Huh. There appears to be an actual potential INCREASE in the amount of revenue retained in the region if folks are using their Blockbuster budget at MotorCity or Greektown because its not flowing to Wayne Huizinga in Florida! A good chunk of the folks visiting the casinos are coming here from out of town, either as part of a convention or sporting event or on tour packages, bringing a big wad of cash from OUTSIDE the region that gets deposited here through the excise tax. Once the new rooms are open, even more will flow in from outside the region. So the costs that Dan seems to think haven't been thought about HAVE actually been thought-about and, compared to benefits, the City winds up with a HUGE net gain, IMNSHO. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2015 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
The actual percentage is more than that. Only the profits would leave the state. The 24% is based on gross receipts. All their payroll expense stay in the state, all their expenses paid to local vendors, they have to build and pay for their casinos w/ hotels. Then they pay SBT, Detroit’s corp. income tax, personal property tax and property taxes. While I am sure MGM does ship a good amount of money to Vegas there is allot of money that circulates back into the local economy. (Message edited by Merchantgander on July 11, 2006) | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 206 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
itsjeff Quote: If your only purpose on this board is to do nothing but bitch, while being practically illiterate, it just... I... you don't.... oh, nevermind. You start with me TOTALLY off topic about grammer, then go off on a nut when I call your "mistakes" and you claim all I do is "bitch"? You sir are laughable. Face it you got your thong in a bunch because you corrected me while mis-spelling and using bad grammer yourself and then getting called for it. :-( Awwww. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 701 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Sigh. "Grammar", pacypacy. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 682 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.214.106 |
Danindc, You are totally wrong with this aspect of your argument. The jobs created by the casinos pay far better than you think. The vast majority of Detroit casino jobs are held by local people without college degrees. Without the casinos, most of these people would be working at Wal-mart, cleaning offices, slinging fast food, or working some other job in the $7-$10 per hour range (with no benefits.) A janitor at at Detroit hotel or office building will make 7 or 8 buck an hour, with no benefits. The same job at a Detroit casino pays 13 or 14 bucks an hour, with a great benefit package.
Wrong. Dealers make about double that amount, not including the benefits. The cage cashiers, slot attendants, countroom workers, and most of the other unskilled labor jobs pay $15 or more. When you add up the benefits and wages, most of the unskilled labor jobs at the casinos pay about twice as much as similar jobs in the region. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1617 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Well, by the logic of itsjeff and erikd, Atlantic City should be an economic powerhouse, with Tunica, MS not far behind. Both of those places have casinos with many more out-of-town visitors than Detroit. You guys keep thinking what you want, and have fun pissing your money away. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1024 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
detroit will have fun reaping the $$ from the casinos, not pissing it away. | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 209 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 136.181.195.84 |
Ray1936 QUOTE: Sigh. "Grammar", pacypacy. "Sigh", is not a proper sentence Ray. Why would you post it as such? From the way you and Jeff run to correct people one would think you two know it all, so why the sentence faux pas? | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1717 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.187.234 |
Hey, I have a great idea: why don't all of you go masturbate. Right now. Do it. You will waste less time, and you'll feel great when you're done. All this DaninDC bullshit about "choosing what you want" as if it isn't already in place, and this quibbling among four anonymous posters on a forum no longer known for having qualified or insider information is so crazy. I mean, at least gambling occasionally gives a payoff for the time spent. All you get out of this is a rash, so why do you do it? It was the same thing on the Asian Village thread, Lmichigan insisting he/she was going to do a complete analysis of available parking on the riverfront and PROVE that the new Beaubien Place parking structure was not necessary. Except ... it's already built and open. And Conrad Schwartz at GM probably won't take your call to hear the results. So fellas, when you stack your facts against each other and decide you win this casino argument, what are you going to do? "Hey, I spent ten hours on it but I totally out-argued this guy on the internet!" I mean, at least MG is like "look, just say you disagree." Try to get a little perspective on it all, folks. It's just a spiral of negativity. And Pacy, whether you like it or not, all the goading has led to you writing completely legible, fully constructed sentences. So stop arguing with everyone who corrects you and enjoy your new literacy. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 779 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
Don't have time to post right now (I have month-end), but I wanted to throw a couple of numbers out there to chew on: The GROSS GAMING tax rates are City of Detroit, 12.9% + 1.25% Municipal Fee; State 12.1% = 26.25% PLUS the casinos contribute 9 Million apiece each year to fund the Gaming Control Board (ALL other municipalities take this fee from their gaming tax)(9MM equates to another 3% for Greektown) Let's not forget that the casinos GAVE the city of Detroit the riverfront land (150Million) AND bailed them out of their budget woes in 2002-2003 to the tune of 80MM, rough numbers, in return they got the ability to reduce the hotels to 400 rooms, and in thanks, the STATE LEGISLATURE turned around and added tax to their pockets. The average worker at Greektown Casino actually earns $45,000 per year PLUS a benefits package that is untouchable anywhere.......(Most lower-paying jobs have been laid-off since the state tax increase)....I will post more later. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1618 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Well, Dialh, since you mentioned "literacy", the thread topic is "Net Effect of Casinos", not "Should We Open Casinos?". If you don't want to play along, then don't. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2677 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
DaninDC, don't take it personally, masturbation is dialh's answer to just about everything ... (plus he is kinda preaching to the choir giving that kinda advice in an internet forum ...) One issue that hasn't been mentioned is opportunity cost of the casinos. This of course is highly speculative but ... Had the political energy, realestate, calories burned, $$ etc NOT been spent on developing and maintaining the casino biz AT THE EXACT TIME many other big cities were undergoing more traditional "improvements" AND the economy was doing well back then (both locally and nationally: the auto biz was booming, the stock market was booming and there was investment $$ available for all sorts of stuff) who knows what sorta stuff mighta popped up. Consider CLE, MIL, STL and PIT as examples of sorta similarly crappy rustbelt cities that did not go the casino route and had significant infrastructure, commercial ad residential developments in the 90s. It seems detroit missed out on this stuff when the getting was good and now $$ is really tight and the economy is shaky for realizing these things in DET. (That said, I don't think that most of these developments in these other cities is particularly great in terms of dramaticly "saving" a moribund town, but imo neither are casinos.) | ||
Keystone Member Username: Keystone Post Number: 225 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 63.241.158.33 |
I think Rustic's point is on the mark. Seems Detroit in the 80's/90's was looking for that 'big project' to solve a lot of problems. Not that big is bad, but what makes a great city is the easing up on the barriers to entry to entrepreneurs and small business owners. Detroit is legendary for making it tough to succeed. And, of the three casinos, Greektown has done an exceptional job of promoting businesses outside of the casino walls. I remember walking around Greektown in the mid 90's when Trapper's Alley was about empty and thinking the heyday of the district was long gone. Now I look and see a destination as good (or better) than it ever was. Net result of gaming: huge success. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6358 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
May I ask you guys what big projects you think Detroit would have accomplished had there been no casino gambling? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1620 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
May I ask why big projects are necessary? Rustic, since you mentioned opportunity costs, I think this would be a fine time to recall the east riverfront, which Archer killed for the casino theme park that never came to fruition. With a little investment and a lot of hard work, that could be a happening neighborhood right now. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 781 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
I'll answer your question Jeff, there would have been absolutely NO projects that generated over 8,000 new, permanent and full-time jobs in the city of Detroit. Zilch, none. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 782 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
That being said, I agree with earlier posts that point out that the City of Detroit needs a complete and utter overhaul of its governmental policies/procedures/attitude. Business and residents should be welcomed with wide open arms, not told what they can't do and overtaxed. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2679 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
itsjeff, not to echo DaninDc (who I usually find myself butting heads with more often than not on this forum) but who said big projects? None of the following represents a BIG project in fact most would have easily fallen within the noise of the casino machinations. Atwater is a terrific example, atwater was a funky puttering but viable entertainment district with genuine honest to god organic loft redevelopments and a few buildings ripe for conversion to residential by commercial companies and was sacrificed at the altar of casino speculation by an administration at that point looking to move on to greener pastures and now sits in ruins. These are ruins created SINCE Mr. Lowell started this site. (Actually the BC is another one ... if you believe that the Detroit hotel market is underserved well the prospect of hundreds of additional casino rooms (that never got built) HAD to have stalled the potential redevelopment of this building, right?) Another example is river park extension upriver from hart plaza ... this has been discussed in various forms since AT LEAST hart plaza was created. What if work had stated on it mid 90's and the anticipated follow on realestate etc. was underway? Pick a few of your favorite abandoned, mothballed, ruined, or recently torn down buildings (BC, Packard, Lee Plaza, MCS, Tiger Stadium, Statler, ML, ...) Every single one of these buildings were in better shape 5-10-15 years ago than today (with the exception of the BC which the city has spent millions on to prep for redevelopment). Look at Lowell's apt building tour, I am certain that EVERY one of those buildings was in better shape then than now. New Center was in much better shape mid 90's vs today. Detroit's population in the city was ~20% higher. There were more children in schools. Metro Detroit and Michigans aging population was younger. If you buy the hype, another decades worth of hip and cool creative class types were lost to CHI and NY etc ... and frankly how many more generations of talent can Mi realisticly hope to produce hemmoraging it's best and brightest as it has been for decades now. (note: I dont believe anything need be done to specificly coddle or attract these kinds of people but many others DO belive this so I include it) Auto companies were giving out thousands of $ bonuses ... etc. etc. THAT was the time to do stuff in the city but instead it was casino casino casino ... and now when the regional economy is tettering on the brink of oblivion and the US is mired in wars of no return racking up huge debt with no end in sight our balance of trade as nearly upside down as in the colonial times ... NOW ya wanna build hundreds of lofts and new housing in the city? ... NOW ya wanna talk mass transit ... NOW ya wanna talk property tax cuts ... yikes! ... the time to do that sorta stuff was back when our biggest problem concerned Monica Lewinsky and Altoids ... Itsjeff you asked for a big project ... okay here is one instead of casinos: what if Detroit could have attracted Toyota or Honda to build it's HQ instead. That would be bigger than the roll of the dice of casinos. Hey maybe that's a low probability crapshoot but then again is Detroit sucking tourist from CHI and TOR to play at it's Casinos? that's a crap shoot too. The thing about the gaming industry is it requires customers with $$$$. If those customers are almost certianly majority local, since it doesn't directly provide a good it drains the people of the region of $$ that they could spend on other things, invest whatever. Sure it provides a service, entertainment, but since it is a highly regulated industry where the state has an interest in keeping revenue high you can't expect market forces to wiggle their way in to drive down profit margins to the benefit of the customers. It is an extremely costly form of entertainment. The same criticism is true of destination casinos, except at least with those they are competing with other places to atract tourists so there is some market forces at play ... further with the erosion of good pensions and benefits in the region how many middle and lowermiddlecalss metro detroiters are there going to be in 10 15 years with the spendable $$ to spend at the casinos? Sorry but the opportunity costs of going with casinos was and remains significant. Perhaps it doesn't outwiegh the casino jobs and the tax revenue, but it is significant, imo. (Message edited by rustic on July 12, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1621 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
And more significantly, those opportunity costs haven't been measured and documented, so it's impossible to tell whether the ROI has been positive or negative. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 109 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
On August 8, 2006 we should all vote NO to defeat the SMART property tax. Then sell SMART to the Casino's for just one dollar. And then all the buses will be full and Downtown Detroit and the Airport will always have frequent 24 hour, 7 day a week clean, safe bus service. Or, vote YES for more freeways and parking lots by supporting the SEMCOG Multi-Billion freeway expansions to pay for the trucking companies. The truckers will be voting YES next August because they know the facts. But, Do You? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2434 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.115 |
Thanks Trainman, I was gonna vote no, but you've annoyed the piss out of most people on this forum ever since you got here with your horribly weak analogies and your obsessive compulsive behavior..... Go see a shrink! .... and by the way.... you've convinced me to vote YES! | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 114 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Gistok Great!!!! I want you to vote YES. Then you will pay for my bus ride because I live near the border of Detroit. Have you ever heard of reverse psychology? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6396 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
And have you ever heard of psychology? | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 119 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I really don't care if SMART renews the property tax or not. Please vote YES or NO. Livonia was only able to opt out by paying the same tax as everyone else. It's against the law for our state to shut down SMART should the SMART tax fail on August 8, 2006. So, if you vote NO, only the increase is defeated and you will pay the same as before. This was made public in 2002 in the newspapers and media when SMART could keep the lower amount of property taxes and the same amount of state funds as protected by federal laws should their proposal fail. There is no evidence to support the position that SMART will shut down or lose state funding if the property tax renewal is defeated. There is much evidence that shows that raising local taxes does not necessarily mean more federal transit grants or improved transportation choices. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 685 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.214.106 |
Thanks for pointing out the stupidity and pointlessness of all these forum discussions... If you don't have "qualified or insider information" recognized by dialh, or high-profile corporate execs on your speed-dial, there is no point to any of these discussions. I have also grown tired of ordinary people expressing their opinions on current events. For example, I am tired of people without 'insider information" blathering about Iraq. What do these people even bother taking about it? I see no point in ordinary citizens discussing this topic. If you don't eat lunch with Condi or Bush, please shut up, because you have no influence on the decisions. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 150 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
We can gamble on August 8, 2006 and support the SMART property tax renewal which includes spending $533 Million dollars to expand 18 miles of the I-75 freeway in Oakland County or vote NO. The choice is up to the taxpayers. We can be stupid and throw our limited transportation tax dollars away. Or, we can all be SMART and Just Say No. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4623 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.235 |
Trainman, I think you misunderstood the SMART property tax renewal. Voting YES to renew the property tax will the SMART busses running the our economy for the Tri-county area going. It didn't mention in the ballot that there's going to be a sudden FREEWAY expension project comming. Voting no on SMART tax renewal means NO MORE SMART BUSSES AND HELLO DARTA. In which our leaders don't have the plans yet. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 383 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
Oh my God. |
