  Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1075 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
MEAP math, reading scores 'scary' Education Mich. students' test results continue on downward spiral; experts say drop is due to more kids taking exam than in past. Catherine Jun / The Detroit News This year's high school graduates did far worse in reading and math on state standardized tests compared to graduates last year, prompting an expert at Michigan State University to call the results "scary." "What it's telling us is we're preparing less students for the higher demands of postsecondary work," said Sharif Shakrani of the Education Policy Center at Michigan State. On the Michigan Educational Assessment Program test, results from tests taken by this year's graduates dropped 7.8 percentage points in reading compared to last year's graduates. In math, the results dropped 4.5 percentage points. The latest scores released by the state Friday indicate a continuation of a trend that started in 2003. The bad news comes months after the state Legislature adopted new high school graduation standards as part of Gov. Jennifer Granholm's campaign to double the number of college graduates in the state. Only about 23 percent of Michigan adults have four-year degrees, placing the state 38th in the nation. Experts say that the drop in reading may mean schools are not doing their job or that students are simply not learning. Regardless, it is a difficult problem to tackle, since high schools vary widely in what types of reading they require. "We realize we have to reach all kids," said Martin Ackley, spokesman for the Michigan Department of Education. "We can't (tell) half of them to get there and half to not get there," he said. He said this year's drop is in part due to more students taking the test than in the past to meet federal standards stipulated by the No Child Left Behind Act. Even the traditionally high-scoring Plymouth-Canton district dropped in percentage points in reading and math compared to last year. Still, John Li, whose eighth-grade son, Randy Li, attends school in the district, said he's not too concerned because the district's margin over the state and county averages is about the same as last year. "(The drop in percentage points) probably indicates that the problems are much harder this year," John Li said. The state's new high school graduation requirements, which will take effect for freshmen starting in fall 2007, will make several core subjects like math a requirement in upper grades rather than an elective as it is in some schools. "If kids aren't taking the classes, how can they answer the questions on the test?" Ackley said. But Shakrani said the scores indicate that the standards need to be implemented sooner. Next year, the state will switch to the Michigan Merit Exam, a test based on the ACT college entrance exam. Some educators say that MEAPs aren't the best gauge for what students are learning. "The data is two years old," said Harvey Czerwinski, testing and assessment consultant for the Macomb Intermediate School District. "The scores are for the Class of 2006, but they're on a test the class took in the 11th grade." Macomb County's percentage of passing students was slightly lower than the state's averages, but he said that schools have instituted changes over the last two years, such as teaching algebra to students a year earlier. Writing and science scores were down slightly from last year: results in writing dropped 2 percent points and 1.6 percentage points in science. Social studies was the only subject in which students showed improvement: 36.8 percent of students tested met or exceeded state standards, up from 33.8 percent last year. [Edit: Fourth-grade MEAP math scoring was previously dumbed down three years ago; now, it's social studies tests' turn for their also being dumbed down.] Educators caution, however, that changes to the scoring and content of the social studies section of the test in response to chronically low scores make it difficult to determine whether this is actually an improvement. Sanford Cohen, an economics and geography teacher at Southeastern High School in Detroit, said the test has historically been an inaccurate barometer for social studies knowledge, sometimes asking subjective and overly complex questions. "The teachers themselves are left to literally wonder are we supposed to teach to a flawed test," he said. In Detroit, 19.6 percent of students passed social studies this year, up from 11.2 percent. For Jane Clark, a parent with two sons at Brighton High School in Livingston County, the school's poor performance might indicate that schools need to tailor their teaching methods to different needs of students. "Some people aren't made for school -- listening to the teacher talk and taking a test," she said. You can reach Catherine Jun at (313) 222-2269 or cjun@detnews.com. Detroit News reporters Christine MacDonald, Shawn D. Lewis, Charles E. Ramirez, Candice Williams, and Karen Bouffard contributed to this report. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 168 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.97.37 |
Interesting. As a teacher, I have seen the test and it is incorrect in many areas (the answers they accept are not really the correct answers!). Although, I must say that students' grade level reading in 11th grade is, on average, at a 5th grade level. Also included with those scores are hundreds of Special Education students who were forced to take the regular MEAP with no accomodations (as allowed by law). I wrote a Master's thesis on that very subject. It's hard to determine what to teach students because the test is changed so much and often doesn't follow state benchmarks (and next year, yet another new test). What they didn't report is that more students are taking and doing better on the ACT exam than in previous years. Many factors lead to lower MEAP scores. It's a LONG test (4 hours each day for 5 days), no breaks. By the time kids get to the reading and math portions, they are WIPED out and TIRED. Most adults couldn't take a test that long without at least a walk around break. Actually being involved in the administration of the test can provide insight into much of what is wrong. The problem isn't in the kids and teachers, it's in the test and the conditions in which it's given. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 145 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
My daughter had a learning disability and at the annual IEP meeting with her school administrators and special ed teachers, we were given the choice to opt her in or out of the MEAP testing. That option is no longer available to parents and all special ed students must take the MEAP tests. That is why the article states, "this year's drop is in part due to more students taking the test than in the past". It also explains why the scores tended downward , despite the larger numbers of test takers. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 146 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Detroitteacher, you beat me to it! You also correctly wrote, "By the time kids get to the reading and math portions, they are WIPED out and TIRED." Three years ago I volunteered to help the person at our local junior high un-box, distribute, collect and re-box the test booklets and scoresheets for the MEAP tests. She just had surgery and needed some help since the school had 975 students. By the end of the testing week we were both also WIPED OUT and TIRED! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 169 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.97.37 |
I've been testing coordinator before. I'll never do it again! They sent us the wrong tests, wrong kids, and it was sent during Easter Break and we were expected to test properly the day we came back!! It's a pity that students are not given accomodations(those who need them per their IEP) or breaks. I was just looking at the new testing info on mi.gov. Seems it will be a better experience for kids. PLUS, they get to use those ACT scores for college apps. Many kids don't take the ACT because parents won't give them the money, they miss it because it is Saturday at 8am or a plethora of other reasons. Now, at least, all kids will HAVE to take it (at least in theory) and there won't be any more excuses. This, at least, gives the kids some incentive to take the test. With the MEAP, there was no incentive because very few kids earned the scholarship... As a teacher, I hold zero weight in MEAP scores. I just kept my son home during MEAP testing (he also has a slight LD and would hyperventilate and break out ina rash in stressful testing situations (you should have seen him taking his driver's test!!) Glad they did away with the M-Crap test and are now giving the kids something they can actually use. Bet scores will skyrocket. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1077 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"Glad they did away with the M-Crap test and are now giving the kids something they can actually use. Bet scores will skyrocket." Scores will not skyrocket because there will be no norms for a while. What will happen are comparisons with better school systems in those states that value education (meaning--not around SE MI). | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 170 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.97.37 |
Livernois: The ACT is a norm referenced test. Scores will skyrocket because students will finally be able to use the test for something beside making the school look good. They will have a more vested interest in doing better than they did for the MEAP. Students get better scores on ACT than on MEAP anyway. (Message edited by detroitteacher on July 15, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1078 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
As I previously alluded, norm-referenced tests are a tribute to dumb-downedness. The dumbed-down ACT and SAT are "assessments" used to cull students (for college admittance, usually), whereas the criterion-referenced tests actually measure what the students know (aptitude). Norm-referenced tests make the schools, students, and teachers look good (or at least better) while not providing any judgment of what the students really know. The US always does miserably in norm-referenced tests with other countries. The US usually scores at or very near the bottom, internationally. In other words: The new tests amount to another fraud and a BIG COPOUT! For example, the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) was scrapped and dumbed down after January 1994. In its place, the Scholastic Assessment Test (also SAT) was substituted. One reason for the recent strengthening of the newer SAT Reasoning Test was due to the fact that a majority of today's high school seniors possessed a serious lack of writing and critical-thinking skills. Normative assessment Normative assessment is a style of assessment (or testing) in which the tested individual is compared to a sample of his or her peers (referred to as a "normative sample"). When a test uses normative assessment, it is said to be a "norm-referenced test" or "norm-referenced assessment." Alternative to normative assessment, assessments can be ipsative, that is, the individual assessment is compared to his- or her-self through time. By contrast, a test is criterion-referenced when provision is made for translating the test score into a statement about the behavior to be expected of a person with that score. The same test can be used in both ways. Robert Glaser originally coined the terms "norm-referenced test" and "criterion-referenced test". Most state achievement tests are criterion referenced. In other words, a predetermined level of acceptable performance is developed and students pass or fail in achieving or not achieving this level. Tests that set goals for students based on the average student's performance are norm-referenced assessments. Tests that set goals for students based on a set standard (e.g., 80 words spelled correctly) are criterion-referenced assessments. Many college entrance exams and nationally used school tests use normative assessment. The SAT, Graduate Record Examination (GRE), and Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) compare individual student performance to the performance of a normative sample. Test-takers cannot "fail" a norm-referenced test, as each test-taker receives a score that compares the individual to others that have taken the test, usually given by a percentile. (Message edited by livernoisyard on July 16, 2006) | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2734 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.195 |
Detroitteacher, do not listen to Livernois. He clearly has no background in education, yet alone the administration of schools and the implementation of school curriculum. Students outside "SE MI" are no better prepared than those who reside here. The rural kids in northern Michigan don't have nearly the resources and industry that SE Michigan has. They also don't make up the majority of students at schools such as Michigan State and Michigan. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 171 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
By passing I meant that they get an acceptable score (usually for college admissions). Livernois: I can't argue with you. ANY test given to anyone won't be fair to each and every person. My point is that ANYTHING is better than the MEAP. At least the new test for Michigan provides students with a score they can use for something. The old MEAP was worthless to students unless they came from the elite schools (it provided a scholarship). Very few kids from Detroit earned that scholarship. I can brag and say that all of the students at Cooley who have earned the scholarship have been my students. There haven't been MANY. Talk to ANY teacher in Michigan who teaches high school and they will tell you that the MEAP was horrible. teachers have been pushing to get a different assessment for a long time. My opinion, they should use the portfolio system to measure student progress. KY uses it and it seems to work well for those students. A single test can't determine anything about a student or teacher, but since that is what the state has decided on using I'm glad they switched it to something that the kids can use to their advantage. It sure helps out kids who wouldn't have been able to take the ACT otherwise. At least the ACT test this year won't be subjectively graded by college students (as the MEAP is) who don't reside in the state. I say give the new test a try. Kids will take it more seriously than they ever took the MEAP (because they can use it for college apps) and this will, in turn, cause scores (or whatever you want to call how the state will evaluate how well students did) to increase. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 806 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 68.40.119.216 |
With most kid's attention span geared to a MTV type of world, I'm surprised anyone passed the test if it is 4 hours long. I was shocked to see the scores from River Rouge students though. I wonder how the guys that make the test up would do on it. | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 89 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 67.149.62.53 |
Look at the disparity in scores between bordering cities like Bloomfield Hills/Pontiac or Lamphere/Madison. Students are certainly receiving a much better education experience to reflect these scores. The formula is not working for funding from the state if some students/districts can't acheive a certain level of the MEAP. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 173 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Wilus: I doubt that any of the higher ups in the State Board of Ed could pass the MEAP (I'm not exhaggerating). The test is chock full of questions with wrong answers or the answers that they want aren't the correct answers. Sit down and take the practise MEAP (school districts used to offer this). Testing is also set up different in suburbs. Kids get breaks, breakfast, state of the art calculators, and access to textbooks and supplemental materials all year. DPS and kids in poorer districts don't get the same perks. It can not be used as a valid test because kids are not being tested exactly the same through the whole state. For the test to be valid, it needs to be given to each kid exactly the same. Right how there are too many options for school districts. Kids at Cooley didn't even get to use calculators this year (as the test allows). There were too many faults with the test from the get go. Just taking a test for 5 days at 4 hours a day is grueling to say the least! | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 103 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 69.246.123.118 |
I read somewhere (and now I can't find it) that a significant fraction of schoolchildren -- maybe one-third--will be considered learning impaired in the next 10-15 years. Now that's scary. Most kids I see in suburban schools as a substitute either are not capable of much algebra or if they are, they don't want to do the work. I tell them that numbers rule, but their priorities appear to be music and partying. There needs to be some serious attitude adjustmen, and it probably has to start with the parents. Some school systems are realizing that parents who have no knowledge or interest in science probably will produce kids with little interest in science. The same goes for math and reading. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 174 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.97.177 |
Max: I agree. Many more students are being labeled as LD because of the new interest in "something must be wrong with my kid" syndrome. My guess is that kids just aren't interested in the subject matter. Kids are sitting in front of the TV for babysitting service. There are staggering numbers of kids labeled as LD who probably don't need the label but it's an excuse... No clear answers on this subject. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1081 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Most of us have taken lengthy tests at one time or another. Why is taking MEAP tests with only a moderate degree of difficulty and having ample time for them such a problem? Back in 1978, I took and passed all four parts of the Uniform CPA exam: five tests, 19 1/2 hours spread out over 2 1/2 days. Then there was the day at Cobo where I scored very highly in four MTTC (Michigan Test for Teacher Certification) tests--two at the same time in the morning and two at the same time during the afternoon. They weren't the easiest tests either: 16-Science, 19-Physics, 22-Mathematics (Secondary), and 50-Computer Science. You just do what you got to do... (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 16, 2006) | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 175 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
When you took those tests, you were an adult! The tests also had some value TO YOU. The MEAP had no value for the kids. It meant nothing to them as they could use the scores for nothing but a scholarship. Those tests you took were given under the same conditions to everyone. The tests you took were also valid tests (the answers matched up to the actual corret answers...the MEAP had flaws). I also took the MTTC and passed with high scores (a very long test) but it meant something to me since my career depended on how well I did on the test. Just giving the test and sitting there for 4 hours with no break was hell. I can imagine what taking the test might have been like when it had no meaning for the kids. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2690 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.40.154.115 |
Ltorivia, please stop chiming in to attack others whom you don't agree with. You don't seem to have a background on many of the subjects that you comment on (and no what "your family and friends told you" and "The Michigan Citizen" don't count). | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 22 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
You also correctly wrote, "By the time kids get to the reading and math portions, they are WIPED out and TIRED." Cry me a river. Those same kids will play playstation games for 112 hours straight without getting tired. They fail the tests because the teachers, school and their parents failed them. Start teaching and stop blaming other people. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1650 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.118 |
Toledo law, what a completely irrelevant(categoricaly) and useless contribution to this thread. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 303 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 4.229.36.227 |
I HATED taking standardized tests when I was a kid. Even on those rare occasions when I tried to do well on them, I'd be OK for the first 45 minutes or so, but then I'd start to feel as if I had three dozen jackhammers going full blast inside my brain. Sometimes the jackhammers were in my stomach as well. By that point, all I cared about was getting the hell out of there, to a place where I wouldn't have to look at any more of those damn bubble sheets. And this was in the 1980s, when the tests were shorter and kids didn't have to take so many of them. I would probably be insane if I had to take those tests now. Yeah, I understand that the government and the public need to know what the kids are learning (or not learning) in the public schools. There are also instances where educators need to use standardized tests to assess individual kids-- for example, to see if a kid qualifies for special ed. But for the most part, I think the tests are overrated and overdone. Surely, there must be a better way? | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 176 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I am teaching. MY students score the highest in the school on those tests! MY argument is that the test is not a well written test and it holds no incentive for them to do well. Have you ever tried reading for 4 hours straight? That's a lot different than playing playstation. I work with the kids everyday. Can anyone else say the same thing?? | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 24 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
I guess these children will not be the ones to get a job where they have to look at contracts, financial statements, drawings, conduct an operation, etc for 8-10 hours a day. We will have to steer them to a job where they get a break every 30 minutes. To bad the Union is going out of busisness in Michigan. Sounds like lots of future workers. Good thing we have all these immigrants who are coming to our country willing and able work. Sounds like we are raising a bunch of lazy bums! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 177 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
If I don't gain something I don't do it. Whether it be personal satisfaction for a job well done or my paycheck or cleaning the house...what about the MEAP was motivating to kids? Nothing. Like I said, this new test, where they get ACT scores would be more motivating and prompt them to do better and try harder. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 578 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.43.107.72 |
I never tried once on any of those tests, they were all bullshit for the school system to look good. I even bombed my ACT yet I'm about to graduate from WSU. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 179 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Exactly what I am trying to say. That is how kids feel. I do hope that, with the competetive market now for college apps and such that kids do better on their ACT than on the MEAP. They have a more vested interest in the ACT. And Chitaku...congrats on almost being finished (I know that feeling well). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1083 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Parents Demand Dumbed-Down Tests --- An Unintended Bad Consequence Of The No Child Left Behind Act The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 is making the problem of cheating, low academic standards, and public schools lying to parents, even worse. Under this Act, the Department of Education now requires students to pass standardized tests. Failing schools will lose federal funding and other perks if their students consistently turn in a bad performance on these tests. Holding schools and teachers accountable, and expecting students to demonstrate what they’ve learned, sounds like a good idea. But this Act means that badly-taught students, victims of dumbed-down texts and bad teaching methods like new math and whole-language instruction, now have to pass difficult standardized tests they are not ready for. As a result, millions of students may fail these tests, not because they are dumb, but because the schools never taught them to read properly or solve a math problem without a calculator. Millions of high school students with low reading and math skills now risk not graduating from high school until they pass these tests. It is important that parents know the unvarnished truth about their children’s real academic abilities, but many parents are now frantic because they see their children’s failing grades on these new tests. As a result, they complain to school boards that they do not want their children taking these tests or not graduating from high school because of low test scores. To protect their children, many parents are now demanding dumbed-down tests to make sure that their kids graduate from high school and go to college. The No Child Left Behind Act is now forcing many parents to condone schools that dumb-down their tests and standards, instead of blaming these schools for their children’s failure to learn. This is a typical unintended consequence of more government laws that try to fix problems that a government-controlled school system created in the first place. State lawmakers in New York, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, and other states have yielded to parent pressure. They have scrapped or watered-down high-stakes graduation tests that proved too tough even for students in the so-called better schools in the suburbs. In Wisconsin, state legislators backed off plans to require high school graduation tests because of strong opposition by parents from affluent suburbs. One parent group calling itself “Advocates for Education” argued that high-stakes testing would not be fair to children and would hurt educational quality in the schools. Critics of the graduation tests were worried that the tests would put too much pressure on the children. Suburban parents lobbied parent-teacher organizations, and state legislators eventually scrapped the graduation test before a single high-school student had taken it. Similarly, New York and Massachusetts officials yielded to pressure by parents to set low passing grades for their new graduation tests. In Virginia and Arizona, state boards of education have backed away from graduation tests that were too tough for even the so-called better schools. Only 7 percent of schools in Virginia met new achievement standards, and 9 out of 10 sophomores in Arizona schools failed a new math test. In New York City, school authorities estimated that over 30 percent of the city’s 11th-graders would not be eligible to graduate if the English language standard that will take effect next year was being applied today. Diane Ravitch of the Brookings Institute in Washington is a longtime analyst of New York’s public-school system She estimated that in some neighborhoods, less than 5 percent of high-school seniors would qualify to graduate under the new standards. Parents, particularly those with younger children, should take heed. You don’t want to end up with high-school kids who may not graduate because they can’t pass the new tests. In Chapters 8, 9, and the Resource section of "Public Schools, Public Menace," I explore how you can circumvent these serious problems by finding real education alternatives outside the public schools. Article Copyrighted © 2005 by Joel Turtel. About the Author Joel Turtel is the author of “Public Schools, Public Menace: How Public Schools Lie To Parents and Betray Our Children." Website: http://www.mykidsdeservebetter .com, Email: lbooksusa@aol.com, Phone: 718-447-7348. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 17, 2006) | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 180 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Livernois: What you quoted up there is very true. My question is: What can I do in a few months with a junior who can't read at grade level or even enough to pass the High School test? I can do very little before they actually take the exam. Since I teach only juniors and seniors, it's hard for MY teaching ability to be questioned based on the test of my students. By the time I get them, it's too late to bring them up to grade level in reading. Although I stress much reading and writing, if they don't have it by the time they get to me, they usually won't get it. At the level that I teach, I am merely fine tuning skills taught prior to them having me as a teacher. I've been saying WAY up on this thread (or perhaps in another related thread) that we need to change curriculum. I am not a supporter of whole language or new math. I'm not even ALLOWED to teach grammar to the kids! I do it on the downlow. Most of my students read at or below a 5th grade level. I'm up against some odds but I really don't think it's fair for anyone to say I'm not doing MY job (someone said to start teaching and stop blaming people). If I taught elementary kids, I would agree with that, but I don't. Any suggestions? I do have an intense reading program (not whole language) and pre and post testing shows that my students raise their GLR by at least one grade but that is over a years time! I am always up for new ideas on what people may think will work. My firm belief is that good reading habits start at home LONG before kids get to school. It's not a parent's job to teach a kid to read but reading to them will help them enjoy reading. So let's NOT blame the teachers and star taking responsibility as parents and a community. Teachers can only do so much but when parents and the community and the state fight us and keep changing the rules of the game, then we don't have much to go on. I can't cure a kid of all their ills, teachers can't magically get a kid to read and love it when they are 16-17 yrs old. And, Livernois...I must ask this: If you are saying that teachers are betraying kids, are YOU out there teaching so that you can say that from a teacher's viewpoint? We have much more to deal with than just Johnnie's reading issues. Try dealing with 200 Johnnie's and their reading issues and someone riding your back because Johnnie didn't do well on a test and you could not possibly have prepared him for it because he's not in school because his mama needed him at home, or someone early in his school years missed something and he has a severe reading disability (dyslexia) and you've only had the kid for a few months before he takes the test. What then? Try stop blaming the teachers (at least those at the high school level) and start making everyone accountable and get the kid in school so I at least have a chance to make an impact!! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1084 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I taught for a while and definitely realized that teachers and education weren't in Kansas any more, and I wanted little part of it. And teachers are indeed a major part of the problem. US schools now cost close to a $trillion annually when most costs are included. Just witness their colossal failures. American schooling is primarily employment for adults with few actual benefits for students, errr kids. Little bang for those mega buck$. Read Martin L. Gross's book (available used for a couple bucks): The Conspiracy of Ignorance--The Failure of American Public Schools The most powerful indictment ever written about our education mess ... and the most jaw-dropping exposé to date from the pen of America's leading "bunkraker" The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools by Martin L. Gross That's what Time magazine called Martin Gross, whose national (and Club) bestseller, The Government Racket, turned up countless examples of wasteful government spending and inspired those "Fleecing of America" segments you see on the nightly news. Now, Gross takes aim at a target second only to Big Government in its baneful effects on American life: public education. Using the prodigious investigative and research skills that made him famous, he reaches a conclusion that should outrage every American parent, taxpayer and patriot: "Our children are less well educated today than at any time in our history" The culprits? What Gross dubs the Education Establishment: "the 5 million 'professionals,' from classroom teachers to state education commissioners, who constitute the near-monolithic force that controls our public schools" and which "can best be described as a conspiracy of ignorance, one with false theories and low academic standards. Well-conceived, internally consistent, it has been powerful enough - thus far - to fight off outside challenges and true change. All this at the expense of our schoolchildren." "This book is intended as just such an examination of that Establishment and its public schools, in all their facets. ... In this volume, I will set out to prove conclusively that the education of American children, from kindergarten through 12th grade, is a poorly cast and poorly delivered product." Highlights: * Why American student performance is even worse than official data would suggest * Proof that "even our supposed best are failing in comparison with similar students" in other countries * Under-reported: the American economy's growing reliance on the high-tech skills of foreign students * Why today's schoolteachers are academically inferior to the general population - though yesterday's were far superior * Why high school teachers are usually less well prepared in the subjects they teach than are ordinary college graduates * Documented: the explosive growth of overpaid education bureaucrats and "support personnel" * How parents are conned into believing that their child's school is an exception to the generally poor state of American schools * How teachers and administrators deceive parents about their children's true abilities * 3 ways to find out how your child is really doing in school * The psychologized classroom: how counseling and personality testing are used to undermine religious beliefs and traditional morals * "Confidentiality": it means that teachers and administrators know what your child is up to, but you don't * The shibboleth of "small class size" * Teacher licensing (aka "certification"): "a ritual without substance, requiring knowledge at the lowest possible level" * Why the best private schools in the nation avoid hiring state-certified teachers, like the plague * You know teachers and administrators are overpaid. But you don't know by how much. Gross supplies the shocking numbers * The debased curriculum: What ever happened to Geography and Trigonometry? * The dumbing down - way down - of English, math and science * Growing evidence of the superiority of phonics. Why the discredited "whole language" approach is still widely used * What children no longer learn in math class * The plague of calculators: few parents realize how much they're used in math education, and how destructive they are * Does poverty cause reading failure? Does "overcrowding"? How one inner-city public school proved those excuses false * Why Johnny doesn't know history: The sham of "social studies" * How the SATs were changed to inflate scores an average of 100 points * Warning: Does your child's teacher or principal use any of these trendy edu-speak buzzwords? * Why private and parochial schools deliver superior education, even when spending far less per student * A BILL OF INDICTMENT against the Education Establishment, outlining 19 specific deficiencies that need essential change * AN IDEAL PLAN for American public education, K-12 (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 17, 2006) | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 183 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
You are categorizing all teachers and not all teachers fall into that category. Granted, some do. Do schools fail kids, yes. I guess I don't agree because I can do other things but I choose to teach because I believe I am making a difference, albeit small, but a difference nonetheless. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 184 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I also think that people who criticize teachers and say we are part of the problem are cowards and are more part of the problem than we because they aren't doing the teaching or getting into/continuing to teach and have no right categorizing those of us who do. Basically, if you can't do the job, then don't bitch about those who do. If you want to place blame then YOU get into it and make the world right again. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1085 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The proof's in the pudding. It doesn't matter much that there are some fine, competent teachers in the mix. Their effectiveness is swamped by the less qualified and incompetents. The ugly fact is that today's teacher crowd primarily were C+ students in high school in an era of meaningless, massive GPA hyperinflation. C+ HS students today were the low D students prior to the 1960s with the realistic GPA standards in play back then. The median SAT/ACT scores of teacher candidates in college is around the 20 to 25 percentile level of the entire college pool of undergraduates. That's not good. The median ACT/SAT scores of graduating HS seniors is significantly higher than the median scores of elementary, special ed, and phy ed teachers. Again, not good. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1707 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.131.201 |
Livernoisyard, the website about the book that bashes public schools is from an author promoting "Internet private school." Internet private school? What the hell is that? Adults can take on-line courses, but not children. Since I have no children I have no desire to look into this. However, Livernoisyard, maybe you can elaborate more on what this internet private school is all about. I don't want to knock it unless I have more information. Livernoisyard and Toledolaw, you folks are forgetting that you are adults now. You have more patience to sit down and take a four hour test, most school-aged kids don't. Toledolaw, let me just assume that the law in your name has something to do with you going to law school and perhaps being a lawyer. If you do look at contracts and documents at your job you don't look at them for 8-10 straight hours. You may work going over them for 8-10 hours, but you don't look at them for 8-10 straight hours. You take coffee breaks, lavatory breaks, and lunch breaks. You call people on the phone and have conferences with co-workers and clients. The fact is you don't sit at your desk a straight 8-10 hours so don't assume that school children can sit uninterrupted for long periods of time to take a test. Also, as Detroitteacher has said, the tests you've taken and passed to get a law degree or to become a lawyer were required, if you wanted to do what you do. You had a vested interest in passing them. Children taking the MEAP don't have a vested interest in passing it. If passing it meant passing to the next grade or graduating, then maybe the students would have a vested interest in passing it, but as of now, they don't. Given this fact, how can the teacher or anyone else convince students to do well on the MEAP if they don't have an incentive to do so? (Message edited by royce on July 17, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1086 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I have no idea what that private school's about. It's probably a clearing house for home schooling parents. That would make sense because they've been around for years now. Gross has been writing for over a decade on education and other areas. He was once a teacher or administrator at a private school, I thought. I even talked to him on one of the rare times I ever called into a talk show seven years ago--the Jim Bohannon Show on WXYT--back around the time when I was teaching in a Downriver burb and the Archdiocese. His views on school reform are similar to the usual guys: Sowell, Sykes, Bennett, Cosby, Williams, etc. Checking him out should be a good project for you. Write up a composition about it, post it, and we'll grade it for you... | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 186 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Quote: He was once a teacher or administrator at a private school, I thought OK, Private schools are MUCH different than public schools. One does NOT have to be a certified teacher to teach at a Private School!! You are taking a few people's opinions about schools and turning them into gospel (much like Rasputin does about the black issues). Like I said, if you don't like the state of affairs in public schools, get off your ass and go into teaching and change things! (My challenge to anyone who complains about the state that schools are in now) Granted, schools aren't what they used to be but then again, neither are the benchmarks. Back in the day, teachers taught what was necessary to succeed in life. Now, our hands are tied to teach what is on some stupid test and THAT keeps changing. BTW, I was a straight A student in high school and scored a 35 on my ACTs in the 9th grade (so that theory of yours is thrown out the window). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1088 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
No individual teacher is going to change any stodgy, dysfunctional public school system, especially when the combined effect of unions, government agencies, and ed mills are tightly intertwined. That best she (usually) can do is to educate whatever kids she has. However, I had a fair number of teachers (many with about a dozen years service) tell me that they were quitting. One 34 yo told me her husband threatened to divorce her because she brought all the BS of her job home every night. She got a "real" Masters this time, not what passes for one from the ed mills, in business marketing and couldn't be happier. Never looked back... This scenario is but one snapshot, illustrating that not is all OK in Education City. But telling anybody that he (she) should also do what you already know is wrought with failure isn't a sensible approach either. A fundamental change in the governance of education (not necessary schooling) is needed. It won't happen in MI due to the presence of the teachers' unions, the ed mills, and politicians and bureaucrats--a cabal or "conspiracy of ignorance" as Gross paints it. Most of what transpired is just lip service by Granholm and Engler and others before them. But getting rid of the MEAP criterion tests is a definite dumbing down. By having the pampered kids "passing" the norm-referenced tests will surely be hailed as a "success" by teachers and their administrators. At the same time, any real gauge of education would have been lost. IOW, MI (being a definite bottom-feeder in education) will just get worse, and it'll show: Fewer businesses will choose MI (especially SE MI) for their firms. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8634 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.54.70.86 |
LivernoisYard, all anyone has to do is look at the family structure and a person can see that the so-called dumbing down of America started when families began to disintegrate. How many parents do you know even push their kids to do their work? Not many. Most either turn a blind eye to it or do the work for their children. BTW: Kids coming from poor schools have also impacts those MEAP scores. Take a look at Warren Consolidated, Many kids from DPS are now starting to go to these schools and they jsut can't keep up thus lowering the overall score of each school (and then lowering the amount of funds the school receives). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1089 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
It's easy to see once good school systems becoming laughing stocks due to students from other communities attending them--either because of migration or transferring into them. Wayne-Westland was adversely impacted by Inkster. [Over 75% of Inksters kids deserted Inkster's public schools during the 1990s.] It would be a safe assumption that any decline in any inner-ring burb's education is attributable to current or former residents of the city of D. But the dumbing down has been ubiquitous and pandemic, so Detroit's current or former populace is only one cause. Much of southern Oakland and Macomb Counties is also dumbing down. I read somewhere that even West Bloomfield had a 13% functional illiteracy rate! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 187 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
If everyone who thought like you do, Livernois, would get off their collective asses and become teachers or become involved in education, then the system WOULD change. No one wants to do a damn thing except blame teachers. I only have the kids so long and can only do so much. I have extremely high expectations for my students and they rise to my challenge. I don't dumb down anything. The MEAP is not a valid test (have you ever taken one?). My challenge again, get off your ass and DO something instead of just giving lip service. Get on the school board or the Michigan Dept of Ed. if teaching isn't your thing. Everyone just sits by and passes judgement. At least I can say I am out there in the trenches trying to do what I can with 200 kids a year. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1090 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I put in my time. Others can take over. Most teachers are dedicated, but money drives the whole industry. And teachers are highly compensated for the skills needed for the job. Detroit teachers (on paper) started eight years ago at $34K at the bottom of its pay scale. However, back then, NO ONE really started at that pay level. Instead, the minimum pay was $39K, plus Cadillac perquisites, (fourth pay scale from the bottom). Still another game that DPS played for public-relations purposes back then. [I don't know what the pay scale goes down to today, but it's higher than it was back then.] And as with most anything, follow the money... | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 188 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Where in the hell did you get YOUR info?? Try not getting a cost of living increase in 4 years. Those who started 4th step up from the bottom were SCIENCE teachers, who are in short supply. Try being laid off each year...with no certainty that your job will be there next year. Try paying for Master's level classes out of your pay ( no they don't pay for it) because continuing your education is a requirement for keeping your certificaiton. Doesn't sound like you were in it long enough to get the facts. You put in your time...what a cop-out. Nothing like passing the buck to someone else. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1092 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Hey! I got drafted during the Vietnam War. So, I suppose I should also be drafted to continuely teach in one of the most dysfunctional school districts on the planet? Good (and bad) teachers are simply cannon fodder anyway in DPS. Face it! Academics isn't anywhere near priority #1 in DPS and hasn't been for eons. And the burbs are now discovering this also, in case they haven't already known. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 190 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
If you don't want to be part of the solution, then quit bitching. If you think you can do a better job, then do it. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1093 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
This academic backwater will not improve until it sinks still deeper. It will require a fundamental shift in the mindsets of people, particularly in SE MI, who now quite frankly do not value having themselves or their kids being educated. Much of the rest of the country will simply acquire a bigger piece of the booming prosperity which could otherwise have come here, but won't--ever--unless SE MI's residents quite literally "wise up." Figure on seeing more "For Sale" signs, more vacant plants and stores, fewer jobs, etc. in the five major counties in SE MI. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2736 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.195 |
Livernois is an old, bitter, delusional, no-good-for-nothing weirdo who is all talk but no substance. Don't like the current direction of the administration? Do something about it! Don't turn you nose up high thinking like you're the almighty Savior when you won't even try to help the kids (and their families) do better in school. These kids suffer from the lack of role models and the fact that live in hyper-segregated neighborhoods. When most of your neighbors are the same race and color as you, don't be shocked that they don't talk, act, or think like their Bloomfield Hills peers. Hypocrite. Typical roundabout conservative hogwash. Get off your high horse, Livernoisyard. (Message edited by ltorivia485 on July 17, 2006) | ||
Moreta Member Username: Moreta Post Number: 242 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 69.133.83.137 |
You can pass judgement on something without having to become one of the condemned. I'm not a teacher and will never be. I have no desire to teach (although at one point in my life I thought I might). I can still see what the educational establishment is accomplishing and look objectively at its failings. Being a teacher or school administrator is not the only way to improve things. Raising the level of debate with parents and educators is just as valuable. Less ridiculing of the messenger and more genuine conversation about the message please. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1094 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Let the facts speak for themselves. This is what USA Today says about DPS [notice how much better the second worst city compares to Detroit]: Big-city schools struggle with graduation rates Updated 6/20/2006 11:26 PM ET WASHINGTON — Students in a handful of big-city school districts have a less than 50-50 chance of graduating from high school with their peers, and a few cities graduate far fewer than half each spring, according to research released on Tuesday. Fourteen urban school districts have on-time graduation rates lower than 50%; they include Detroit, Baltimore, New York, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas, Denver and Houston. TABLE: Graduation rates for 50 largest districts in U.S. The findings present a bleak picture and are sure to generate controversy as lawmakers and others push to keep U.S. students competitive globally. While the basic finding that the nation's overall graduation rate is about 70% is not new, the study suggests that graduation rates are much lower than previously reported in many states. It also could bring the dropout debate to the local level, because it allows anyone with Internet access to view with unprecedented detail data on the nation's 12,000 school districts. Among the nation's 50 largest districts, the study finds, three graduate fewer than 40%: Detroit (21.7%), Baltimore (38.5%) and New York City (38.9%). The advantage of the new study is that "you could apply it to any and all school districts in the country with the same validity — and the same problems," says Michael Casserly of The Council of the Great City Schools, an advocacy group for large urban districts. He says it's still unclear whether researcher Christopher Swanson overstates the problem. Swanson's analysis, strictly speaking, is not a calculation of dropout rates but of graduation rates; it estimates the probability that a student in ninth grade will complete high school on time and with a regular diploma. Adding to the debate: The study is sponsored by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which promotes its own brand of high school reform. Last year, Bill Gates called U.S. high schools "obsolete." The study, which uses 2002 and 2003 data, the most current available, finds that public schools graduate 69.6% of an estimated 4 million eligible students each spring, meaning about 1.2 million students likely won't graduate this year. That means about 7,000 students drop out per school day, Swanson says. Researcher Lawrence Mishel of the Economic Policy Institute says Swanson's figures "seriously understate graduation rates, especially for minorities." They say that just 52% of blacks graduate, and 57% of Hispanics. Mishel says by comparing the number of graduates with the number of ninth-graders, Swanson exaggerates the effects of the "ninth-grade bulge," in which many ninth-graders are held back a year before tackling more advanced work and, often, state-mandated exit exams. Mishel's most recent research puts the overall U.S. graduation rate at 82%. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2738 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.195 |
Again, Livernoisyard is quoting false statistics. Detroit does NOT have a 21% graduation rate. Detroit Public Schools AND the Michigan Department of Education criticized the results because they did not take into consideration the number of students who LEAVE THE DISTRICT. They are not DROPOUTS. They just leave the district for another city/county or charters. For example, consider Detroit, which Swanson says had 22% graduation for 2003. Detroit's PK-12 enrollment also shrank from 173,742 (in 2002-03) to 150,604 (2003-04), a net outmigration that would lead to an artificial deflation of Swanson's measure. That doesn't mean that Detroit is a great school system. It means that Swanson's measure is largely useless for Detroit. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1095 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I see... DPS schools are so good that all those kids are choosing to be educated somewhere else. Reminds me of rats jumping off a sinking ship. DPS's graduation rate is nowhere near its claimed 56% figure. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2739 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.195 |
Neither is it 22% either. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 304 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 4.229.60.117 |
I've noticed that the elementary school kids are being taught more basic academic skills than they were 10-15 years ago. They're receiving phonics instruction now, rather than a steady diet of whole language. They have to pass a spelling test every week, whereas in the 1990s the kids were encouraged to use "invented" spelling and their teachers weren't allowed to correct them. (It damages poor little Cody's self-esteem, you know!) In math, the kids have to memorize the basic facts before they can use calculators. Hopefully, these kids will be in better shape as teenagers than the current crop of high school students. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1096 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The Catholic schools used phonetics (the term used previously) probably as far back as 100 years ago, perhaps longer, for teaching reading and spelling. The education "professionals" who some decades ago introduced the "whole word" nonsense were probably the same folks who came up with "New Coke," costing Coca-Cola literally $millions in lost revenue. This article about orthography was in the paper recently: Spelling is way to(o) hard, critics say Despite lack of public interest, advocates continue to push for overhaul of complex English language. Darlene Superville / Associated Press WASHINGTON -- When "say," "they" and "weigh" rhyme, but "bomb," "comb" and "tomb" don't, wuudn't it maek mor sens to spel wurdz the wae thae sound? Those in favor of simplified spelling say children would learn faster and illiteracy rates would drop. Opponents say a new system would make spelling even more confusing. Eether wae, the consept has yet to capcher th publix imajinaeshun. It's been 100 years since Andrew Carnegie helped create the Simplified Spelling Board to promote a retooling of written English and President Theodore Roosevelt tried to force the government to use simplified spelling in its publications. But advocates aren't giving up. They even picket the national spelling bee finals, held every year in Washington, costumed as bumble bees and hoisting signs that say "Enuf is enuf but enough is too much" or "I'm thru with through." Thae sae th bee selebraets th ability of a fue stoodents to master a dificult sistem that stumps meny utherz hoo cuud do just as wel if speling were simpler. "It's a very difficult thing to get something accepted like this," says Alan Mole, president of the American Literacy Council, which favors an end to "illogical spelling." The group says English has 42 sounds spelled in a bewildering 400 ways. Americans doen't aulwaez go for whut's eezy -- witnes th faeluer of th metric sistem to cach on. But propoenents of simpler speling noet that a smatering of aulterd spelingz hav maed th leep into evrydae ues. Doughnut also is donut; colour, honour and labour long ago lost the British "u" and the similarly derived theatre and centre have been replaced by the easier-to-sound-out theater and center. "Great changes have been made in the past. Systems can change," a hopeful Mole said. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 192 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Quote: Fourteen urban school districts have on-time graduation rates lower than 50%; they include Detroit, Baltimore, New York, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas, Denver and Houston A large percentage of those who don't graduate don't come to school on a regular basis. Absenteeism is extremely high in urban schools. I can't teach them if they don't have their butts in the seats. THIS is a direct result of PARENTS not holding a high regard for education. Reading that last article was painful and doesn't teach the kids anything. That crap is part of the problem. What does changing coke have to do with anything in education? I realize that being a teacher isn't the only way to change things. However, Livernois is directly critical of the state of affairs of public schools and condemns those who ARE trying to help kids yet he wants no part in being part of the solution. His facts are wrong (atrition and absences make up the majority of non graduating students). Anyone who would like to see what is really going on in schools is more than welcome in my classroom. Be prepared to do the work that my students do and be treated as I treat them. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1060 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
The thing they left out about all this is one, they have included sub groups that were never counted before in the test (this partially accounts for the lower scores). Test scores for NCLB were down nationwide, not just in Michigan. Not to mention everything that has been mentioned is wrong with the MEAP. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 193 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Bob: I did mention it way up in the thread such as including ALL special ed kids. Those who are severely cognitively impaired can take the Mi-Access test but ONLY one percent of a districts population can be counted in those results. Anything over the one percent is counted as a ZERO. Hence, the scores plummet. Not to mention NOT allowing students accomodations as required by law, as long as they are written into the IEP. None ever are because it's a costly and often impossible task to give each student individualized accomodations. The system is faulty across the board, no argument there. I jsut hope that with the newer test idea (ACT plus Michigan's own sub tests in Social Studies and Science) that things will improve. My belief is that, in today's society, people don't need to actually have to memorize much and be able to spit out facts. What they do need to know how to do is problem solve. The ACT is a predictor of that. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4586 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
You all know what! If our kids should do their math homework like their teacher told them to and continue to learn more on universal mathematics. Then they have to score poorly on those so-called standarized MEAP tests. Let's see they can do better on those ACT tests. Which I called WELFARE QUIZES. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4587 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
It's so hard to get our America's children to used their left side of the brain for mathematical purposes. Most of time they use their right side of the brain to absorb all of that pop-culture junk. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1097 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"What does changing coke have to do with anything in education?" So, you can't make the analogy? Both phonetics (phonics) and Coke were working fine until some self-proclaimed "experts" had to impose their wills and ruined both. It took Coca-Cola close to a year to reclaim its drop in market share after it re-instituted the former Coke formula that it dropped as "Classic Coke." Unfortunately, it's apparently harder for the educationists to admit their mistakes. That's why it took another generation or two before "whole word" was rejected as another colossal failure. That's probably why many Detroiters and others (including many on DYES) cannot spell well. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1651 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.178 |
It is my understanding that spelling is no indication of intelligence but more a matter of memorization. The unfortunate result is that some think spelling is not important and don't bother to edit or check spelling in situations where it matters significantly. And with computers and spell check it is practically fool proof. I was a better speller when I was younger.I did learn phonetics from the nuns at St. Thomas in Ann Arbor in the 1960's.As my memory lessens I find I am unable to spell as well as I once did.............what this has to do with this thread I am uncertain but here it is anyway | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 148 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
I volunteered to help the MEAP coordinator (see my post from last Sat night on this thread) at the suburban junior high school where my children had attended and where my wife currently works as the attendance clerk. Over the years while my children were attending, I volunteered my time as a parent leader of various committees, study groups, etc. for our school district. Since taking an early retirement as an engineering manager, I've begun working as a substitute teacher at the secondary level in our school district. Even though I am not a professional educator, I think I've developed some valid opinions about the state of our public schools based on my experiences, so here are my two cent's worth: -- We have too many parents who set up their children for failure because of the low value they place on their child's education. Children will respond and rise to to the level of what is expected of them. Unfortunately, if the parents place a low level of importance on education, this is reflected in the attitude of their child. If the parents do not consider it important that their children attend school regularly, the child misses too many opportunities to learn. If the parents pull their child out of class on a regular basis for things like an annual one-month vacation in December or to work temporarily behind the counter of their family business, the child gets so far behind, they give up. If the parents rely on the school to discipline their children when they skip instead of adding their own punishment on top of it, the child gets a subliminal and wrong message. If the parents paint the child's future for them at an early age as being nothing more than what they did or what they want them to do, there is no room for the child to dream and strive for something different and better. -- We have too many parents who fail to discipline their children at home and it seems that they also fail to teach them proper public behavior and to respect their teachers and other authority figures. On top of this, we also have too many public school administrators who fail to back the efforts of their teachers to maintain discipline. Weak administrators tend to back off from making tough and consistent disciplinary decisions in the face of aggressive parents who insist "my child couldn't have done that". All too often, if two children are being disciplined for similar but separate offenses, the child with the aggressive type parents will get a lighter punishment than the child of parents who do not "fight" it and instead try to teach their child a valuable lesson regarding accepting the consequences of one's own actions. -- Most teachers I've met are caring individuals who go the extra mile to make their lessons interesting and to motivate their students. However, there is that 20% or so who are either incompetent or just there for the paycheck and should have never been allowed to continue working in a place of learning. We found that one of the benefits of volunteering at our children's elementary school is that you would eventually learn which teachers were not held in very high esteem by their peers or the office workers. As a regular volunteer, we also learned that while we could not request a certain teacher for our child's upcoming year, we could ask the principal that our child not get "so-and-so". The principal would always respond that they couldn't promise anything, but in the fall we were never disappointed. For much of this, I blame the unions, which protect the weakest performing members at the expense of the best performers. If teachers ever want to be fully recognized (prestige as well as pay) as the professionals they are, they need to shed their collective mentality and stand willing to defend their worth as individuals. For the rest of it, I blame the school administrators, who either cannot or will not use their contractural rights as an employer to improve the performance of their weakest employees or fire them if they do not improve. -- With respect to the MEAP testing, I claim no expertise regarding testing methodologies. However, my opinion is that the legislature and educational testing bureaucrats have created a monstrosity that appears to be worthless for making valid assessments of progress within a district or even relative comparisons between different school districts. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 195 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Mikeg: Glad someone else sees what I do on a daily basis! Your post was exactly the truth!! I agree, unions have protected the horrid teachers and that isn't fair to the kids. We know who those people are and pity the kids who have them for instructors. A normal day for me is to have those students (who really want to learn and who have a desire to go to college), who have the horrid teachers, in my room during their lunch period doing classwork for MY class. They don't get a grade on it but they do get the extra support they need and experience in doing a research paper (the correct way) or a portfolio. Does the pricipal know this? Yes. Can he do anything to get rid of those "teachers"? He's trying. It takes mounds of paperwork, etc to get a teacher on unsat status. With the Highly Qualified status for teachers, MANY of those who aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing will be GONE, no questions asked. They haven't taken the time to become highly qualified. My only hope is that I never get to be one of those teachers. If I wake up on a regular basis and don't want to go to work, it's time to get out and do something else. If the MEAP is so woderful, they would have kept it as a valid test. It's not and the state is starting to realize this. You can't say it's because we are dumming down anything, the ACT is accepted nationwide, not just in Michigan. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1099 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Money talks and bull shit walks... It's inevitable that states stuck with dysfunctional school districts will yield to the dumbing-down pressures when literally $millions of funds are dependent upon their dysfunctional kids squeaking through the simpler ACT-type tests and not failing the meaningful criterion-based tests. States stocked with well-performing school districts (not MI, BTW) will keep the more meaningful MEAP-type tests because their kids are better educated and are not in danger of exposing any evidence of improper schooling/learning. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 198 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
It's the test that determines well performing schools. Could it be that Michigan just has a crappy test? MANY well performing states choose to use alternative assessment methods (portfolios) rather than a test. If the ACT is a "simpler" test, then why is it accepted at EVERY university in EVERY state for admissions????? State tests are NOT accepted for admissions to universities. Usually, the higher the ACT score the lower the GPA needs to be to be accepted. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1100 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The ACT is a norm-referenced test used mostly for culling purposes. Its grading is not set a priori. That way nobody "fails," and all that is measured usually is a percentile rating [which does point out who's been naughty or nice to a very limited degree]. But, you should know that. Using norm-referenced tests in a general dumbing-down environment, everything should come up smelling rosy, even in a manure pile. But, it doesn't look too hot if one school's percentile rating is low. But hey! It's very hard to "flunk" these types of tests. Some just don't do as well as others... | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2700 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.40.154.115 |
Again Ltorivia, stop attacking someone because you don't agree with them. Talk about "quoting false statistics", you're the person that tried to pass of the results of combining two different polls, conducted by two different sources, from two different years in order to make a "point" about college rankings. And since you're trying to support DPS and a state agency's graduation stats, why not also point out the many other sources that criticize those numbers as inaccurate? Furthermore, speaking of "an old, bitter, delusional, no-good-for-nothing weirdo who is all talk but no substance", let's look at your background on this forum. You routinely use "Rasputin", "what my friends/family told me", "The Michigan Citizen", and "I go to Northwestern" as supports to your knee-jerk "points". Now speaking of "doing something about it" and "trying to help the kids", the first thing out of your mouth any time reforms to DPS are discussed is "My mother won't have a job". So save the righteous indignation and hypocrisy. What these kids are suffering from is getting a bunch of mixed signals from people like you in the(ir) community. People using them to further their own socio-political agendas. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2701 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.40.154.115 |
Detroitteacher, the ACT is not "accepted at every school in every state". Most of the more elite, private schools only accept the SAT. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1115 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The SATs are common in the Northeast and the West, whereas the ACT rules in the Midwest and Southeast. Most colleges today rarely insist that both or a specific ACT or SAT test be taken any longer. Any of them is OK. You can confer ACT on Wikipedia for that. OTOH, Mensa no longer accepts for its admission selection the GRE, ACT (since 1989), or the SAT (after January 1994) due to them having been dumbed down within the past 12 to 17 years. Mensa blurb about ACT/SAT: Mensa accepts individuals who score in the 98th percentile on standardized IQ tests such as the Stanford-Binet. New scores on certain common tests, such as the SAT and the GRE, are no longer accepted, either because they no longer are considered intelligence tests or because they no longer measure scores up to the 98th percentile, although older scores on these tests are accepted. On the SAT, for example, scores from 1994 and earlier are accepted. Mensa administers its own tests for those who do not already have qualifying scores from other tests; each national Mensa group has its own rules and procedures for administering tests. Because different tests are scaled differently, it is not meaningful to compare raw scores between tests, only percentiles. (Message edited by livernoisyard on July 19, 2006) | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 445 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138 |
Here's what I know about Detroit high school MEAP scores (excluding Renaissance and Cass-Tech). None have 50% or more of their 11th graders scoring in the proficient levels in Math and English Language Arts. FYI, MEAP proficiency is determined by a student scoring in Level 1 and/or 2. Making AYP (in very large part but not all) is determined by a schools Level 1 and/or 2 proficiency rate in the Math and English Language Arts categories only. This means that Science and Social Studies scores, although very important overall, are not factored into a school's AYP status. Here's something I think everyone should keep in mind. Detroit has THOUSANDS of children in grades 3-8 that are scoring near, at, or above statewide MEAP averages. This tells me that our children are as smart as anyone anywhere in Michigan. Unfortunately, as our children get older, they become increasingly less proficient in core subject areas. I argue that it's not because they can't do the work or comprehend the work. Rather, we as community of Detroiters don't place enough value on education. For example, there is vocal minority of people that we allow to disrupt school board meetings and get elected to school board seats. We also allow unions to tell us how the district is going to be run. And, we allow school leadership appointments to be made without comment or accountability. We as the silent majority sit back and refuse to actively participate. It's crime that we are allowing so many children, specifically black children, receive a poor education. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 201 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
My bad, Mensa candidates are FEW and FAR between!! Can't count what THEY want. Rarely do I see students who attend (or have even heard of) the following SAT only universities, the rest of the colleges in the US will accept the ACT, so your demographic theory is out the window since there are more than 11 universities in the SAT demographic you provided: (taken from http://eaop.ucsd.edu/Links/tes ts/ACT-SAT-only.htm) SAT-ONLY INSTITUTIONS INSTITUTION CITY STATE California Institute of Technology Pasadena CA Harvey Mudd College Claremont CA Art Institute of Boston at Lesley Coll Boston MA Loyola College Baltimore MD Central Maine Medical Ctr Sch Nrsng Lewiston ME Wake Forest University Winston-Salem NC Charles E Gregory School of Nursing Perth Amboy NJ CUNY-Bernard M Baruch College New York NY CUNY-College of Staten Island Staten Island NY Webb Institute of Naval Architecture Glen Cove NY Johnson Technical Institute Scranton PA Morena: I couldn't agree more with everything you've posted. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2742 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.195 |
MetroDetGuy, you are WRONG. Most "elite private universities" accept both the SAT and ACT. They prefer the SAT but that does not mean they won't accept the ACT. Show him who's smarter, DetroitTeacher! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 202 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I'm a girl, we develop faster than boys do!!  I've done a Master's Thesis on How High Stakes Testing is not an indicator of intelligence in students (specifically with LDs but I found oodles of research to back me up for the general ed kids as well). I will yell it from the rooftops, my students are smart!! They just lack the discipline and resources that many other students (in those elite districts) have. I will say this until the day I die, "not having reading material in the home, from birth on upwards, is destroying our kids!!" **Excuse the babbling, my son has kidney stones and this has caused my brain to turn to mush with running him back and forth to the hospital and listening to his bitchiness (ust be the testosterone). | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2743 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194 |
You need to watch out for MetroDetGuy and Livernoisyard. They are two of the most conservative (and sometimes idiotic, especially MetroDetGuy) members on this forum. At least Livernois tries to defend his statements in his initial posts. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 205 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I think I proved MetDetGuy wrong when I named off the 11 colleges that DO accept ONLY SAT scores. I was mistaken saying every college accepts ACT scores. He, however, was even more wrong for spouting demographics as the basis for SAT or ACT requirements. If I am not mistaken, those schools that accept SAT are smaller and don't offer a wide curriculum. The MENSA statement was just WRONG! Check out their website and requirements: http://www.mensa.org/index0.ph p?page=10 MetDetGuy, back up your statements with proof! It's more valid that way | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1063 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
No Child Left Behind, claims that all children learn differently, but let's test them all the same. We're going to be hearing a lot more about this in the next year because NCLB is up for renewal next year, and the GOP just proposed a $100 Million voucher plan to help students in underperforming schools. Another proposal to energize their base before election time, but something that will be discussed in length in the next year. Also Detroitteacher, I love your point about reading at home, many studies have shown this is one of the things that can help children the most, yet very few parents are actually doing it at home. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 207 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I agree with you, Bob, about all students learning differently. Not ALL students do well on tests (my son is living proof, his IQ is highly above average, yet his tests scores would prove that he needs special services). He's more of a hands on kid. Ask him to do it and he can, ask him to get it right on a test, and he bombs. Instead of spending money elsewhere, parents should be given book vouchers so that they can go buy books for their kids!! I have an extensive lending library in my classroom and I require kids read, on their own, daily (they have to keep a journal). I also hand out summer reading suggestions (books I loved when I was a teen and are diverse). Many of my students take my books home for the summer and bring them back in the fall. I have had very few that have not been returned. Teachers can't do it all, we need parent support and that goes back to before birth!! (I was reading to my some in utero). | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 150 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Remember "Reading is Fundamental"? Truer words were never written or spoken. However, even the best programs like RIF are no substitute for what parents can do for their children on their own. Encouraging regular reading in the home at an early age will have a positive impact on a child's ability to spell, write coherently and learn from books. Unfortunately, too many adults shirk their responsibilities and expect teachers, social workers and bureaucrats to do their work for them. Then, when they don't like the results, they look everywhere but in the mirror for someone to blame. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1118 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Detroitteacher: "The MENSA statement was just WRONG! Check out their website and requirements: http://www.mensa.org/index0.php?page=10" Hey! Why don't you spell out just what was incorrect? Are you just putting a URL in your misleading message and expecting that anybody just assume it was accurate or truthful??? You call that being honest or truthful? Or, are you just unaware of Mensa's policies? I'm been a Mensa member for eons and know its membership criteria. Mensa does NOT accept ACT test scores taken after 1989 for its IQ criterion and likewise for the SAT tests taken after January 1994. Many standarized tests have been dumbed down through time. Anybody with a modicum of intelligence and common sense should be able to determine that after noting the Mensa no longer accepts many of the current tests. In the list below, N/A means that Mensa does not accept that particular test. Qualifying test scores American Mensa accepts scores from approximately 200 different standardized intelligence tests*. Often potential members have taken acceptable tests at other times in their lives and don't realize they may already qualify for membership. While the following is not a complete list, applicants often ask about the following tests. Please note that all documentation must be the original or a notarized copy of the original. Review of your qualifying scores may be delayed if your documentation does not meet this requirement. Tests commonly administered by school districts: California Test of Cognitive Skills IQ 132 Differential Ability Scales (DAS) GCA 132 Otis-Lennon Tests IQ 132 Otis-Gamma Test IQ 131 Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test (NNAT) Individual and Multilevel Forms: Ability Index Score of 130 or above Stanford Binet IQ 132 Stanford Binet 5 IQ 130 College preparatory tests: ACT Composite prior to 9/89 29; GMAT (Percentile rank of verbal + quantitative)** 95 GRE prior to 5/94 (math + verbal) 1250 from 5/94 to 9/01 (math + verbal + analytic) 1875; Henmon-Nelson 132 LSAT*** prior to 1982 662; 1982 through 5/91 39; effective 6/91 163 Miller Analogies Test (MAT) prior to 10/04 (raw score) 66; after 10/04(total group percentile score) 98 PSAT (taken in junior year): prior to 5/93 180; effective 5/93 N/A PSAT (taken in senior year): prior to 5/93 195; effective 5/93 N/A SAT or CEEB: prior to 9/30/74 1300; from 9/30/74 through 1/31/94 1250; Tests administered by private psychologists: California Test of Mental Maturity (CTMM) IQ 132 Cattell IQ 148 Differential Ability Scales (DAS) GCA 132 Reynolds Intellectual Assessment Scales IQ 132 Stanford Binet IQ 132 Stanford Binet 5 IQ 132 Wechsler Adult and Children Scales IQ 130 (WAIS and WAIS-R, WISC, WISC-R, WISC-III, WISC-4th Edition) Note: Short form not accepted Tests administered by the military: Army GCT**** prior to 10/80 136; effective 10/80 N/A Navy GCT**** prior to 10/80 68; effective 10/80 N/A Mensa reserves the right to alter or change these scores as the tests shown are renormed or restandardized. Mensa will appraise all applications individually and reserves the right to make the final determination about the acceptability of any test. Please note that all documentation must be the original or a notarized copy of the original. Review of your qualifying scores may be delayed if your documentation does not meet this requirement. * Many intelligence test scores will qualify you for Mensa, but Mensa's supervisory psychologists will have to individually appraise the documentation. Almost any test with "achievement" in the title is not acceptable for Mensa admission. American Mensa does not accept unsupervised testing as proof of eligibility, specifically unsupervised testing administered electronically or via Internet-based tests. ** Unlike most tests, the qualifying score for the GMAT is based on the percentile of the total score. There are three columns on the score report, each with a numerical score and a percentile. You're looking for the percentile next to the score in the "total" column — if it's 95% or greater, the score qualifies you for Mensa. *** Submitted documentation must be an original copy mailed from the testing agency, LSAC. Printouts from Web sites or PDFs will not be accepted. **** The only scores that Mensa can accept are the AGCT scores from the Army and the GT scores from the Navy — before the use of the ASVAB (9/80). The new military tests are vocational aptitude tests and are not suitable for Mensa admission. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 20, 2006) | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.162.180.158 |
A very good post from Morena: Low achievement levels in the Detroit Public Schools constitute the single most significant obstacle to the sustainable and permanent revitalization of this city. Detroiters must understand that if we can improve our schools, an improvement of our quality of life, crime levels and household net worth will all follow. If Detroiters could stop using the DPS as a political pulpit and an employment safety net, and start treating it as a place where children can safely grow up and acquire the ability to become lifelong learners, Detroit would become a far different and better place. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2702 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.144.117.160 |
I should have been more specific. Actually Detroitteacher, I proved you wrong, and even Ltorivia (who is known for her knee-jerk emotional outlashes, bragging/ego, lack of factual accuracy, and serious gaps in credibility) had a moment of non-emotional honesty and proved you wrong. Yes, in "official" written policy, many schools "accept" both tests. However, in PRACTICE, selective, top institutions STRONGLY, STRONGLY PREFER the SAT (you're smart, read between the lines as to what that means to admissions depts and applicants alike, it's not that hard to figure out ). You would often see SAT (focused) takers also take the ACT, but not the other way around. Hmmm. In my past work in (high school) college admissions advising, most of the students taking the ACT were looking towards public, state universities of varying levels of difficulty in admissions. However, the SAT takers were generally focused on the more academically prestigious and private schools which had more difficult admissions requirements. Also, you might want to take a look at your own list again. Not one of the ACT only schools listed is anywhere near a selective university. Most are community colleges or lowest tier schools. On the other hand, several of the SAT only schools are in the top tier of selectivity. Detroitteacher, you might want to stick to the classroom rather than any actual college admissions advising. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1655 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.190 |
I am certainly not as smart as you Livernois.And I say that in all sincerity and with whatever humility I might posess. It is(on a lghter tone) a bit humorous that you missed your typo on your most recent post on this thread.And I do wonder what your being a member of Mensa has to do with anything regarding this topic.I believe your smarts are reflected in your posts .......even with a typo!! | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 447 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138 |
Well here's another important fact for everyone to remember (since there are some folks here focusing on the ACT/SAT exams). Beginning 06-07, all Michigan 11th graders in public schools will be taking the ACT exam. The nice thing about this is that students will not have to pay $40.00 to take it because the state will cover the costs. The results of this test will be very interesting. In Detroit, the average ACT score has been right around 17. Now, ALL 11th graders will take the test and I'm sure the results will be dramatic. My guess is that there are approx. 25,000 11th graders in Detroit (public and charter). Because taking the ACT will be required, I expect the Detroit average to drop below 17. None of this means that a Detroit 11th grader scoring a 17 or lower is not capable of being admitted into a college/university or becoming a sucessful college student. However, keep this in mind. Most universities require an ACT of 21. What I learned a long time ago is that if you have a GPA of 2.75 or better but a low ACT score, a university will still admit you. In Detroit, often times, you don't see correlations between GPA and ACT scores. Some graduates have 3.5 or better and ACT scores of 14, 15, 16. If my observations are somewhat on point, that also means that universities will have to continue offering remedial classes for in-coming freshman and these students will be on 6 year graduation plans. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1122 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
GPA criteria run all over the place from school to school, district to district, to the point that they are very unreliable. Class rankings in many states (WI, for one) are used for state college admissions because they are more reliable when GPA criteria differ. But even class rankings wouldn't mean much in notoriously bad schools. Best of the very poor, for example. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 20, 2006) | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 210 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I don't claim to be an expert on college admissions policies. I am, however, an expert on my students. Someone mentioned MENSA so I checked out their website and provided a link. Nothing more. What it said on their site wasn't really clear. I applaud you for being a member. I qualify for membership but chose not to join for a variety of reasons. I am sorry to say that colleges, et al. DO look at GPA and ACT/SAT scores together. I have MANY college admissions folks coming to my classroom throughout the year and tell my students what is needed. Higher ACT = lower GPA. Higher GPA = lower ACT. Not always the rule but many times colleges will work with the kids. Extra curriculars also figure into the equation. The ACT only schools on that list are schools that will ONLY accept the ACT. The 11 on the list of SAT only schools accept ONLY SAT. ALL others accept either test (you didn't figure that out??) so go look at the list AGAIN yourself. Read between THOSE lines (it was pretty clear). MetDetGuy: You mentioned something about YOU being in college admissions? I never denied that the more elite schools generally have students who take the SAT. I thought the focus here was on Detroit where very few students can afford elite schools so they don't even apply. I have had MANY students who could "smart" the socks off the most brainiac kid at an elite school. Too bad the monetary resources for the DPS student weren't the same as the elite school's kid. College costs money, my students don't have much in the way of a college fund or money to pay for more than 2 or 3 applications. They don't take the ACT because of MONEY. Having kids take the ACT in 11th grade will BENEFIT my students and I'm all for it. At least they will get the chance that all the other kids get. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1127 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"I have had MANY students who could "smart" the socks off the most brainiac kid at an elite school. Too bad the monetary resources for the DPS student weren't the same as the elite school's kid." Probably so, from time to time. However, if such unique standouts couldn't qualify for some kinds of academic scholarships would surely deflate the validity of that claim. And there are a number of not-for-profits to look out for them. HS counselors are PAID to see that their students are informed about scholarships. Are they also asleep at the helm? | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 212 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Livernois: Yes, counselors ARE asleep at the helm. VERY few kids this year got scholarships or even applied (although they have to apply for at least 3 for their portfolio in my class). It's sad that we do have counselors who don't do their jobs. Not to mention that most of those students aren't encouraged at home to apply and many parents that I deal with don't want their kids going "off" to college. They want them to live at home (mostly to take care of younger siblings). Sad, but true. Many outside sources do not want to invest in DPS kids. Also sad, but true. No easy solution. I do what I can but I am but one person. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2704 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.144.117.234 |
Detroitteacher, instead of trying to one-up someone, show how smart you are, and cover your ass, why not just admit that you were wrong, instead of trying to put someone else down and back away from a false assertion by talking in circles. The point to any thread on a forum is civilized debate of opinions and getting accurate information (facts) out there. Yes the main topic was standardized testing in Detroit. I was making a correction to one small aspect (an incorrect point that you made), you chose to (try to) get smart. Here's another correction: GPA is looked at in conjunction with curriculum difficulty. A high GPA doing average or below average work doesn't really mean anything. On the contrary, high GPA and low standardized test scores can (and often does) say alot about curriculum difficulty (learning disorders aside). As for being pretty clear, my point in comparing the "official" SAT only vs ACT only schools on your list was quite clear, and you know that. Playing dumb isn't the way to go on that one. By the way, it's not a competition, you could have simply said that some of your students would be on-par with the best students at an elite school. Again, it's not about one-upping someone. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 723 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
To anyone with kids of any age, here's some advice. Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about eleven (11) things they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachers created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world. Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it! Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself. Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice- president with a car phone until you earn both. Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity. Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them. Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room. Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life. Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time. Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs. Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one. If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English -Thank a soldier! Livedog2 | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 152 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
^^ While that is a very interesting list and one I can support, it was not written by Bill Gates. From urbanlegends.com: The text itself a pared-down version of an op-ed piece that appeared in the San Diego Union-Tribune on September 19, 1996. It was written by Charles J. Sykes, best known as the author of "Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why American Children Feel Good about Themselves, but Can't Read, Write, or Add." (Message edited by Mikeg on July 20, 2006) | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 727 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Thanks for the correct source. Like you, I still think the words are the important part! Livedog2 | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 214 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Didn't seem like I was one upping anyone. This thread is about students and that is also my JOB. I also deal with the MEAP/ACT tests. Can't get any more "upped" than that when it comes to this topic. I'm just putting in my two cents like everyone else. Why so defensive? | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2706 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.144.117.234 |
Sorry Detroitteacher, playing innocent isn't the way to go either. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2744 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.195 |
"who is known for her knee-jerk emotional outlashes, bragging/ego, lack of factual accuracy, and serious gaps in credibility" That sounds more like MetroDetGuy to me. Are you kidding yourself? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1129 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I too doubt that Gates originated what he spoke about. Charles Sykes, an education expert in Milwaukee--a reformed ex-liberal, BTW--is Milwaukee's #1 rated talk-show host on WTMJ. He used that also upon occasion, so it's probably somewhat old and possibly has been edited a bit. You can pick up Sykes's 3 1/2 hour program via streaming. He was a frequent guest on 50 KW WISN until WTMJ hired him away from its own newspaper--The Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel (TMJ)--several years ago. I worked at both those stations at times during the 60s and 70s and missed listening to them until they both adopted internet streaming. It's a strange turn of events, but WISN once owned the Milwaukee Sentinel before Hearst had it and afterwards sold it to the Journal. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 21, 2006) | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 735 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 12.108.190.1 |
My favorite quote above: "Have YOU ever tried reading for 4 hours straight?" Is this a joke? You can't be serious. Talk about a telling comment. Reading for four hours is not some kind of challenge. I would call it a routine daily occurrence for millions of knowledge workers. It's 3:00 am and I've just spent 14 hours reading technical documentation. Toughen up you cake eaters. No wonder the world is mopping the floor with this state. Weak, undisciplined, pathetic. This should be our state motto. We are going to be economically mauled by hundreds of millions or people in China, India, here in America, all over the world who relish achievement and hard work. The young people coming out of suburban Detroit high schools seem to me to have the mental capabilities of ten year olds compared to their counterparts in Europe, China and even other major US cities. I can't possibly imagine what the public school system has done with them for 12 years. It breaks my heart, because they're not dumb. They could have been taught. They could have been given productive skills. These kids are victims of a dysfunctional culture and its even more dysfunctional public school system. But don't listen to me, public school advocates. I'm just an employer who has to make do with the crappy work product you've generated for just a little while longer until I can move or outsource these jobs to another state or country. Sorry to be the messenger you all hate to hear, but WAKE UP. You may be able to save some small percentage of your kids. (Message edited by ray on July 21, 2006) (Message edited by ray on July 21, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1134 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Ray seems to know what engineers and others have to do on a regular basis involving reading text for long hours on both a daily and weekly basis. I put in over sixty hours myself of technical editing an embedded-microcontroller's debugger manual since Saturday. So, I have the same sentiments about not feeling sorry for the little dears and their parents or teachers when they continually complain, "It's too hard!" As a teacher for a while in Detroit and Downriver, that was a standard excuse for not trying to do anything for a surprising percentage of the kids. We never used that line during my school years, and if we did our teachers would have thought we were just kidding. Some parents complained that their kids could not do very well in the fifth grade because of their third grade teacher. BS, another cop-out. Almost everything the kids learn up through middle school these days, especially in English, is now covered usually about two or three times, minimum, over a two/three-year span, although it's presented a bit differently--either in more depth or as a review. But these same kids always seemed to have plenty of time for their hand-held games they weren't supposed to sneak into school. Teachers tell me that confiscating games is an every-day occurrence for many of them. Another observation: For my K-12 education--public-school kindergarten, grades 1 through 10 in a parochial school and two years at Marquette University's prep school, and grades 11 and 12 in a public school--we bought all our books each year, new or used, and sold them at the beginning of the next year if we chose to. Today, students rarely ever buy their own books and rarely read them outside of class, although it's usually permitted to take them home. The band instructor (grades 5 through HS senior) at a Downriver district where I taught said he seldom saw the students take books home and many of his students at the schools did not even practice their instruments, either. But hey! That's just what I witnessed, and that's why many teachers quit after a short time. The kids, their parents, and peer pressure, make it almost guaranteed that only some 20 to 30% of them will put in the effort to educate themselves. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 21, 2006) |
