  Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1723 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 75.10.21.159 |
Here's a great article from This Old House Magazine on a DC row house that was restored to look nearly identical to how it was originally built, despite being a gutted-by-neglect former crack house. http://www.thisoldhouse.com/to h/knowhow/adding/article/0,164 17,1188612-1,00.html P.S. For those historic homeowners who don't get the TOH emails, it's a great resource. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1648 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Bvos, You know damn well you can't compare a house in DC to a house in Detroit. LOL | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1727 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
Well, the market isn't there in Detroit like it is in DC. Judging by trips I've made to DC and folks I know working in the real estate market there, I bet that house had a market value of $1 million + when it was completely rehabed. However there are many houses in Detroit that are similar in style to this DC row house and in similar pre-renovation condition. Just wanted to show folks that you can bring back the original beauty without compromising on the details. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1651 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I know the real-estate market isn't the same, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done in Detroit--which is what I think you're getting at. I was speaking to the idea that numerous posters on these boards tend to take offense when someone *gasp* dares to compare Detroit to somewhere else. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 541 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.137.12.82 |
If one is looking at the real estate market as a consideration, complete gut-rehabs are only feasible in very few areas of Detroit. E.g., historic districts, riverfront, CBD, Mid-town and New Center. Even with a skilled and efficient contractor, a basic non-luxury level rehab is going to cost $40-$50 per sq. ft. That exceeds the sales price per sq. ft. in well over 50% of Detroit neighborhoods. In contrast, DC and many other cities support much higher sales prices per sq. ft. even in very marginal neighborhoods. And at the same time, rehab costs are not that much more expensive than they are here. Row house "shells" as they call them in DC (often meaning a burned out dwelling) can sell for $150 sq. ft in neighborhoods that, shall we say, continue to support a thriving underground economy. Completed rehabs in such neighborhoods go for $300 sq. ft. and up. Of course, the market is even higher in the areas where crack dealers are not included as a neighborhood amenity. I wish the economics made better sense in more neighborhoods in Detroit. Maybe someday. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1733 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
I believe that most of the things talked about in this article cost very little more, if any, than the standard "off the shelf" stuff from Home Depot. If you have to fix it anyways, why not put a little more thought into it and make the finished project fit the house. The slight added expense of period millwork would easily be recouped in a higher sales price. Many other items mentioned in the article wouldn't cost much more than the standard stuff that would have been used for the job (especially if the Historic District Commission requires it). | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 673 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
I saw the first episode in the series on PBS. It was a fascinating episode. It's cool to see how the house turned out. They started the show out walking down the street which had all the inner city trademarks, bars on the windows, trash, dilapidated porches. I have to say the TOH folks seemed a little shook. They don't work on houses like these everyday, but the project director Elin was fully of ambition for the project. She reminded of a lot of young rehabber/preservationist types in Detroit. They originally went in the house and were saying they were going to preserve this and that. TOH came back in two weeks and it was totally gutted. So much for that plan. My favorite part was when they lowered the dirt basement floor by two or three feet to make the space usable. The basement had like 6 or 7 foot ceilings. They had 6 guys hand digging and dragging the dirt out in garbage bags for DAYS! I also think it's cool that they will sell it to a low or middle income family. Because I think they said that rowhouse would normally fetch like $600k once it was rehabbed. I think they bought it for $300k in that detroyed state. Overall a great episode. I'd love to see the following episodes. So my question is how can property be that valuable and the neighborhood still be run-down and dangerous? How is that possible? | ||
Czar Member Username: Czar Post Number: 3165 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 129.137.189.9 |
Here's the question I had on that series of episodes: how could a low income family afford the mortgage once the rehab was finished? Unless they sold it for under $100K. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 674 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Czar, I think "low/middle income" in DC is a lot more than in Detroit. DaninDC? | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1734 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
low/mod. income is a relative thing, especially in DC! The building is 3 levels so if it were turned into a condo and each floor sold for $200k that would be considered very affordable in DC. The non-profit group could also rent out the whole place or each floor to make things afordable as well. There are also grants that can be obtained by non-profit housing groups to subsidize the rent or purchase price so it's affordable. About 3 years ago I was in DC in the 14th & U St. area. I toured a house very similar to the TOH project house that just one year earlier was literally a crack house. It was on the market for $1 million. There were houses on the same block that were in very sketchy condition. I was told a few weeks later that the developer got the $1 mil. asking price for the house. It seems that a big driving force in DC real estate was proximity to the Metro. The closer you are to a Metro, the higher the property values and/or the possibilities of gentrification. If only that kind of stuff happened in Detroit... | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2709 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
In many big cities >300K at best gets you a crappy "starter" home or a run-down home in a _really_ bad neighborhood ... or a condo in a weaker neighborhood. Imagine paying +350K for a condo apt in one of those mid 60's apt buildings scattered along the southfield service drive or Greenfield rd on Detroit's westside. That's what the market is like in DC, NY, LA, SF ... In metro DET 350k$ still gets you pretty much ANYWHERE you want ... (in some of the pricier areas you might be talking condos and not homes at this pricepoint but there is realestate available pretty much anywhere ...) Yay Detroit! | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 676 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Yeah, being from Detroit I can't even fathom gentrification on that scale. I mean, Million dollar crack houses! nuts! So it's safe to say no one will recognize that street in DC in a few years. Amazing. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 677 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Yeah, a friend of mine in Toronto says the crappiest most run down house in the worst neighborhood in the city goes for $200k. Their 800 sq. ft. 29th floor condo was like $250-300k. Unbelievable. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1655 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Yeah, that's pretty much what it is. This city is very different than when I moved here 5 years ago, what with all kinds of houses being fixed up. Let's just put it this way: a new studio apartment will fetch at least $300k. A "middle class" rowhouse in the District will run in the range of $500k-$600k. Then again, it's not unusual at all for a "middle class" couple to easily clear $100k a year in income, even in their late 20s/early 30s. Now, as far as the real-estate market driving the viability of rehab, I think that's only true if you're looking to rent a place out or flip it. If you're planning to stay put in a while, there's no reason why someone in Detroit can't do the same thing. After all, how many "typical" people run numbers to determine ROI before doing home repair and renovation projects? | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1700 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
When I lived in DC, those crack houses were going for $75k, one bedroom condos in decent Adams Morgan/Kalorama buildings were going for $80k, and even one bedroom condos in nice buildings in Dupont were going for $100k. Rented a three bedroom rehabbed apt. in Adams morgan for $1100/month. And it was really nice, with off street parking. This was not that long ago (mid 90's). The gap was not that great between there and here. However they have jobs, educated people, amenities, public transportation, and retail. So, in actuality, it seems to me that the fact that the gap was so small in the early/mid 90's is more the anomoly than the fact the gap is so large today. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2710 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
I'd be shocked if salaries in Metro Detroit are lower than salaries in other big cities ... (and Detroiters are probably HIGHER paid than people in LA). most new homeowners there make do with mortage payments that would be staggering to metro detroiters. IT is kinda like $3/gal gas vs $1.25/gal gas (times 105 lol), ya get used to it and adjust in other ways. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1726 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.152.173 |
There is a house on Selden, just east of Cass and across the street from the Detroit School of Arts, that looks very similar to this DC rowhouse. Someone has been working on it. New windows have recently been put in. Anybody know the history of this house and who is renovating it? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7567 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Bear in mind that public transportation allows families to put more into their homes and less into cars. If Mrs. jt1 and I lived in a region with solid mass transit we could probably afford much more. Figuring $6/1000 of home a total car payment, gas and insurance bill of $500 equates to an extra $80,000 of home buying power. But who needs any type of mass transit. What benefit does it offer? | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 680 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Very very very very good point Jt1. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1737 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
I just checked out the CNN/Money cost of living calculator. http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools /costofliving/costofliving.htm l A family making $100,000 annually in Detroit would have to make $129,945.52 annually to make up the difference. Despite housing costing 70% more in DC, a 25% cost of living increase isn't that much more that Detroit, especially considering that a lot of jobs in DC pay at least 25% more than comprable Detroit jobs. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2711 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
It is more than public transportation as prices in car bound suburban enclaves in these same metro areas have also boomed. (also metro areas woefully underserved by public transportation have also boomed) Public transportation access is a circumstantial selling point but not THE cause of the housing bubble in these cities. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7569 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Those areas are anchored by strong city centers which helps the appeal of the suburbs, not vice versa like here. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2712 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
LA? | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 681 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
True Rustic, but you can afford a lot more house if your family owns 1 car instead of 2 or 3. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7570 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Exception, not the rule. I think. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2713 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
Jt1, pretty big exception but okay ... Seattle? Miami? Eastsidedog, yup cutting back on cars is ONE thing that people do. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2366 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.20.197 |
Detroit, where the living is easy...  | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2714 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.14.165 |
track75, yup when it comes to housing quality and bang for yer buck in a major US city, metroDetroit pretty much can't be beat. (as to longterm ROI, employment prospects etc etc that is a bit sketchy but anyway ...) btw, where have ya been? you've been pretty quiet lately ... | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2367 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.20.197 |
Been hangin out a bit on the west coast (Michigan's). No computer, no problem, mon. Real easy living... Plus the forum S/N ratio has been a little low lately. If DC/NYC/SF/etc. are the "growth" metros, Detroit and Michigan are "value" plays. Perhaps some day when the P/E of the "growth" metros becomes unpalatable for some (and our economy recovers) we'll be back in fashion and our living may be a bit less easy. Or maybe we'll continue to be just another part of the "boring Midwest". Either way's OK by me. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1657 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
If by "value" you mean one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation, lagging economy, budget deficits, outmigration of educated people and jobs, and low appreciation of real estate values, then you are correct. Why does every thread have to get so defensive about Detroit until it turns into a pissing match? This is a thread about a house rehab, and suddenly people feel the need to rationalize living in Detroit. Get over it, already! | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2368 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.20.77 |
Relax, Dan. Despite our one-state recession, when one looks beyond all the doom and gloom, there are many here who continue to do well and are enjoying all the city and state have to offer. What's wrong with that? It is a "value" scenario. It works for some. DC works for you. Enjoy. I thought we were having a nice discussion on this thread, you've characterized it as "defensive", "a pissing match" and "people feel the need to rationalize". What's going on in your head? | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 682 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
So has anyone else seen the episodes on this rowhouse on PBS? | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1740 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.0.137 |
Why watch a boring show when you can have a pissing match here on DetroitYES! | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 249 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.148.87.134 |
Track75, I like your securities analogy. Living in Detroit/Michigan is unpopular, not the trend, and is therefore underrated. That should make it a good long term investment. After all, despite ups and downs in unemployment rates, it would take a lot of pressure and a long long time for most of the region's six million people to leave, and it will take a long time for much of the region's vacant housing stock to become as worthless in some inherent way as it is in today's market. OTOH, you have a place like Phoenix which is all about expected (perhaps unsustainable) growth. Right now may be a good time to bet on growth but growth cycles end and are replaced by value, right? | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2715 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.234.183.131 |
track75, yeah I agree with you about both metroDetroit's QOL (if I could find meaningful employment in the region I'd be back (modulo convincing the wife to move back home)) and the recent state of Dyes. Re the DYes S/N ... ya know you can do your part to bump the gain a bit by contributing quality content ... (btw amidst the recent static one of the best threads ever on Dyes recently happened: the Long Blocks thread -- lotsa good detroit stuff in that thread) |
