  Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1974 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 71.144.117.136 |
Allow me to step back for a moment... I think now is a good time to survey what our downtown needs the most; with the Book-Cadillac, a definite blockbuster deal, now actively undergoing early renovations, and the casino hotels also underway, we can turn our attention to the next big thing. The restaurant and hospitality industries downtown are certainly flourishing, and with the city attracting more big events, they should expand further and thrive. But when it comes to major real estate and job-creation projects, there is a lot that could still happen... Of all of these possibilities--some, all, or none of which may occur--what will benefit downtown the most and why? In other words, let's exchange our thoughts and share our wish-lists on these and any other possibilities you may think of. 1) Quicken Loans downtown HQ. 2) New Olympia Stadium in/near Foxtown 3) Broderick Tower renovation 4) Completly filling Merchant's Row with retail and residential tenants. 5) Destruction of and new public (or private) use at the site of the Ford Auditorium 6) Cobo/Joe convention center expansion or revamp. --- 7) Monroe Block development 8) Gratiot/Chrysler development 9) Woodward/Fisher development If you could only choose one of those first six imminent possibilities, which would you choose. I know I would accept getting only one of those things done if in exchange for the other 4 we could have 1,000 new downtown residents in various smaller, renovated buildings, in addition to other small-scale infill projects i.e. near Foxtown, the stadia, and other parking-lot laden areas. I would go into discussions on what's most important in the East Riverfront and Brush Park revitalizations, but those seem like seperate topics. And now that the MC Depot issue is back to square one, we'll leave that alone, too. | ||
7even Member Username: 7even Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 198.109.26.18 |
I think all of them are very important to the city, but I think I will pick #1 due to how many more people will have their job located downtown. I figure more people more business, at least at lunch. Besides these 6 possibilities I think that a big box store is needed. I am not saying the big box needs to look like a big box. I think the best possibly for this may be the Monroe Block. | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 575 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 71.227.91.150 |
Its gotta be #1. What downtown Detroit needs is more jobs so that more white collar people are willing to move downtown and spend money there. I ponder how far all this development of lofts, structures and merchant shops can go, considering that the people needed to sustain these things don't live near them. Now that its a whole lot safer and easier to live downtown(CBD) I believe the white color workers that work there are more willing to move there. More quality jobs would increase the chances of this. | ||
Super_d Member Username: Super_d Post Number: 958 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.255.239.32 |
#1 and #4 super d(motordetroit) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1975 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 71.144.117.136 |
I agree guys, it's all about getting jobs down there so that more people who may be interested in living in/near downtown may have that opportunity. If you work in Livonia, living in Detroit or downtown is something you go out of your way to do. 7even, once we reach a certain critical mass of in/near downtown population (we'll know when this is) then all of the chain stores and additional small businesses will really arrive en masse. The 9-5 aspect of the city can only go so far in terms of bringing in smaller businesses and filling vacancies (although adding more 9-5 workers certainly doesn't hurt), but once there are thousands of people around to make the central city 24/7, then we'll see more chains, grocery stores, and maybe a big box (I think Michigan avenue or the area west of the Lodge and south of Corktown...or perhaps on Gratiot outside of downtown) | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
It will never be a central city 24/7. wake up and smell the coffee...move to livonia if the drive is too far. did you forget the name of this site...HOME OF THE FABULOUS RUINS. Sorry to bust your bubble...POP! :-) | ||
Mountainman Member Username: Mountainman Post Number: 102 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 153.90.110.121 |
Mani: Wow, negativity. Livonia is hands down one of the biggest, blandest crap holes in the enitre country. You really think Livonia will stand the test of time. Once the people who live there grow old and die it may be hard to grab new residents buy into the nondescript sprawl of a hell hole. Why are you even on this forum? As far as my vote goes: #1 and #3 | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10409 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236 |
...a cheese cake factory. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 616 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 69.136.147.97 |
i always see adds on craigslist hiring for a downtown detroit hooters. Tacky hospitality at its finest | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
I don't care about livonia. It sounds like a disease. So if you want to move there...good luck! It's called reality. Cha~ching. I am on this forum to drop a bomb on your house! | ||
Firefly Member Username: Firefly Post Number: 15 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Hooters is tacky. I agree wholeheartedly. I prefer to go with Jal and open up a Booters in downtown Detroit. Hooters don't work downtown because Black men love big ol' booties. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 718 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.61.194.237 |
The D definately needs jobs the most. Everything else falls into place when people can work. | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 28 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
What about education?? Schools...where people can actually get a proper education for real jobs. Unless corner store gas stations, subway and Hooters are suffient jobs to draw people to Detroit and sustain it. | ||
Mountainman Member Username: Mountainman Post Number: 105 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 153.90.110.121 |
Education is key. Without it, no hope. Hooters? That's urban development? | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 719 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.61.194.237 |
What about folks who have education, and are forced to move away to find a "real jobs"? | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 90 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.75.220.9 |
Mountainman, you're an idiot. I love Detroit, but I live in Livonia, and here's the shocker: across the street from my house, there are three houses with couples in their 20's, along with my girlfriend and I who are 26 and 24, respectively. The rest of my neighbors are in their 30's and 40's, with families. Livonia is not a craphole, it is simply a well-kept suburb that consistantly maintains higher incomes and lower unemployment the much of the metro region. I'm sorry if you can't handle the fact that some people would desire to live in the 'burbs, but that's just reality. I am so sick and goddamn tired of the constant ripping-on that Livonia gets. Rip on Canton if you want to rip on Sprawl, Livonia is actually pretty dense for a suburb, and not that far from the central city. As for Quicken loans, I don't understand why they're the savior of the city. The latest speculation I hear is that Dan Gilbert is moving to Cleveland, and while he intends to maintain offices in the Metro Detroit region, he will move the "headquarters" with him. So, let's not get too excited about the possibility that they'll move downtown. I think #6 would prove to be very important to the region economically, but I really hope that #3 occurs in short order, too. | ||
K_solomon Member Username: K_solomon Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 199.178.223.4 |
I would have to say #1. If that were to happen, 4, 7, 8, 9, could be direct results. I do agree with Wazootyman that the COBO expansion would be better for the region. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 863 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
Things that should be on that list: 1) Elimination of the income tax This will go a long way toward encouraging businesses to move downtown. The income tax may not amount to much, but it's a mental impact similar to a parking ticket. Yeah, people can afford it, but they hate paying it. 2) Reduce crime citywide This will probably do more to improve business in the city, including downtown, than anything else. Downtown may still be Disneyland to the Resputins, but it's still Detroit to most everyone else who doesn't live in the city. The elephant will have walked out of the room once people feel safe. 3) A prosperous Book Cadillac This will show that such large-scale renovations work. A successful Book Cadillac will open door after door for more restorations of historic buildings. Preserving that bit of history is a significant part of what separates Detroit from the rest of the pack. As for the rest, I would say 1 (Quicken HQ), 3 (Broderick restoration), 4 (Merchants Row fill out) and 6 (Cobo expansion) in that order are the most important. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2062 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
1. Improve DPS 2. More education options for Parents 3. Better schools 4. Crime reduction If the above happens most things on Mack list will follow. The only way Detroit will actually have a renaissance is to educate the masses so Detroit doesn’t have the highest poverty rate of all major cities. If 1, 2 and 3 happens 4 will automatically be reduced. In fact my #1 for the city would be to sell the water department to the highest bidder dump the money into an endowment that would provide $20,000 to $25,000 college scholarships to all kids that grow up in the city and graduate high school. | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 948 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.221.183.220 |
More Downtown jobs of all kinds - jobs will bring people who will buy/rent housing, buy at retail stores and drive demand for more stores, more people on the streets will bring even more people as the Downtown does not look so desolate. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.30.115 |
Bringing jobs and businesses into the city would obviously improve the overall well being of Detroit, but the city has to make it worthwhile and less expensive. The city tax laws need to be changed first of all. Why would anyone want to pay so much more to live and work in Detroit? I am naive, maybe someone could explain this to me. A complete government overhaul would be a priority in my humble opinion. Has anyone ever gone to the Wayne County Building and left feeling good about the experience, like your mission for going there was accomplished? I would venture to say that after your visit you left feeling upset, confused, frustrated, belittled or perhaps angry even if your visit was for something as simple as getting a copy of your birth certificate. If companies or small business owners are thinking of coming into Detroit and stop by City Hall to face similar service it would be hard to erase that memory from their minds. Improve City Government, leadership and infrastructure, make changes to Detroit tax laws then maybe things will take a turn for the better. | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 951 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.221.183.220 |
Good point Qweek. Having dealt with Oakland and Macomb counties and cities within them, as well as Wayne County and Detroit - Detroit and Wayne County are by far the worst. Rethinking City and County government and how they deal with their residents should be in the top ten. | ||
Mudflap Member Username: Mudflap Post Number: 173 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 75.10.4.241 |
-Nail Salons -Check Cashing Stores -Dollar Stores -Storefront Churches They are everywhere but downtown... office worker need their checks cashed too! | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2064 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
I don't think you folks understand that it is more beneficial to the city to educate it current residence so they can obtain jobs. The city definitely needs to create more jobs and bring in new residents that have jobs and already are educated but that won't solve Detroit's problems. Detroit population is roughly 900,000. Detroit would benefit more if 100,000 residents were moved from poverty to middle class then if 100,000 folks that were already middle class moved to the city and the population went to 1 mil. Educating current residents so they are qualified for good jobs is more important then bringing jobs into the city that will be filled by outsiders. Detroiters need to be able to take care of themselves instead of expecting the government to take care of them. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.30.115 |
Merchantgander, your post reminded me of an old joke, not that your post was funny though. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? One, but the light bulb has to want to change. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1041 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
All the time... | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 682 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
Low education is not just a Detroit thing. It seems like all of Metro has this problem, especially Wayne County. Plus, education doesnt mean a thing for Detroit unless Detroit can offer the high paying white collar jobs that are associated with education. The thread is what downtown needs... Downtown needs improvement, but not as much as people think. Its pretty good, with great places to eat, drink, party, and play. However, not too many in the region go to Downtown. Maybe if Downtown was advertised to the suburbanites? 20 somethings will go to downtown on there nights and weekends instead of royal oak or pontiac? But all of this is a pipe dream, this region is afraid to go into a "black" city. Then again, its probably not black people they are afraid of, its ghetto black, in which they assume every jersey wearing, bling showing, wobbly walk, person out there is in a gang. And will shoot you if you get into an argument with them. On second thought, that sterotype maybe true... just in case, Detroit should also advertise as a warning that when getting into an argument with someone, walk away and be safe. Point of the story, Downtown needs more people. Whether it be through jobs, residents, or attractions, they need more people. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1978 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 71.144.117.136 |
Mudflap, you forgot the cell phone outlets. In all seriousness, though, you folks are making great points, and a uniform tax cut is certainly something which makes sense to me. Making Detroit better for a business's bottom line is the best thing to do. So many reasons cited for causing the inhibitions for people doing business in Detroit would be thrown out the window if it was just plain cheaper to do business in Detroit. Plus I think word is getting around to most right thinking people that downtown is actually safe and clean and you can't get away with bashing it anymore. Regarding the taxes, though, Detroit has the potential to be the Laffer curve's best supporting case yet. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2066 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
I know what the thread is about and downtown needs more educated folks so they can obtain jobs. | ||
Planner_727 Member Username: Planner_727 Post Number: 25 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 69.87.150.106 |
I definitely choose #1, echoing many other posts. More white collar jobs would mean more draw for downtown residents and businesses. More of those mean more essentials stores including drug store, grocery, etc which are all currently not avaliable (except the new CVS). To respond to Wazooty, Livonia is one of the worst communities when it come to sprawl. I live in adjacent Redford Twp, which has 1/3 of the land area but over 1/2 of the population of Livonia. One of the prime indicators of sprawl is neighborhoods that have low densities of residential homes. Never mind the numerous long, straight dead-end streets in Livonia... the densities of the neighborhoods promote isloation and prevent a sense of community or place for the City as a whole. Based on SEMCOG (not best source, but good for comparison), the following densities of residential developemnt ranked least to most in the given communities: 1. Farmington Hills.... 2.55 Dwelling Units/Acre (DU/AC) - this is only within areas developed as residential 2. Livonia............. 3.10 "" 3. Canton Township..... 3.34 4. Southfield.......... 3.67 5. Sterling Heights.... 3.79 6. Redford Twp......... 4.42 7. Warren.............. 4.66 8. East Detroit........ 5.11 9. Westland............ 5.29 10. Mt. Clemens......... 5.36 11. Royal Oak........... 5.79 12. Detroit............. 7.99 Notice that even Canton Township's residential development is more dense than Livonia's. I won't debate that Livonia is a great place in many ways, including safety, location, and it's mix of residential, commercial, and industrial uses. It is also located close to the central city (as close as 15 mins to downtown). It has great access to freeways, a thriving industrial cooridor along a major regional rail line, two good suburban colleges, and a variety of recreation offerings. However, to make the argument that Livonia is not sprawling in both residential densities and development pattern is completely false. Every commercial development in the City is either a strip mall, fast food, or a mall. 95% of the residences would have to drive to do anything outside of thier yard. And before you try and say 'at least we're a City and not a charter twp', the only reason Livonia became a City was so it could collect tax on the race track! I apologize for going off-track with this rant, but I wanted to put at least a few numbers behind often half-hearted claims that Livonia is sprawl City. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 504 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
And now for the opposing viewpoint, here is Danny. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1202 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"Low education is not just a Detroit thing. It seems like all of Metro has this problem, especially Wayne County. Plus, education doesnt mean a thing for Detroit unless Detroit can offer the high paying white collar jobs that are associated with education." It's not just that Metro Detroit has low education. Recent polls indicate that both students and their parents are dangerously anti-intellectual. That's a mindset attitude which isn't expected to change anytime soon. It takes about a decade and a half for a respectable education. A couple years' effort in schooling is meaningless and won't make any difference. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7652 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
How much of this stems from the manufacturing base that has kept SE Michigan going for all of these years. Previously one could make a damn good living without considering education as an option. Due to that mindset it seems that SE Michigan has been dumbed down over the years. Now that so much of the manufacturing base is leaving that isn't an option like it was in the past. The whole region needs to realize that counting on high paying manufacturing/union jobs is a sure fire route to failure in our region. The question is: How long until the people in our region wake up and take education seriously? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1979 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 71.144.117.136 |
Planner, it's a point well made. Livonia is certainly not on its own though, as just about any place which is beyond 8-mile or Telegraph Rd. and built after WW II exhibits low density planning. Unfortunately, more metro Detroiters have accepted this crap than rejected it. Back to downtown...if Quicken builds at the Statler site (which is all fine and good with me because Washington Blvd. needs that hole to be filled in desperately), how long until a plan is announced for the Hudson's block? I thought something was supposed to be said on that this summer. | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 33 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
tetsua... good luck! | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 34 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
What do people want when they move to a city? ~lower taxes ~low crime ~grocery stores ~pedestrian shopping ~not to have their cars or homes broken into ~jobs ~variety and entertainment ~good schools ~parks where kids can play ~to live in a active community ~good health care facilities These things were not founded on Suburbia. These are normal human needs that should be met, no matter where you live. Crime happens everywhere but the balance in Detroit is tipped. Detroit is serioulsy injured. Probably the last city in the US which still has not recovered from such devistasting effects of racism. You are not going to find the balance of these issues in Detroit. I grew up in the inner city in the 70s, post riots when Coleman Young was is the house. The city has been on the decline since the 60s and for better or worse it AIN'T CHANGED. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 658 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.173 |
Mani.. do you live in the city now? | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
Currently no, I moved out of the city five years ago for the second time. I live five miles away from the city right now. My roots are in the city of Detroit. I was born and grew up by the old tiger stadium until i was 18 years old. I have family and work in the city still. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1981 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 71.144.117.136 |
I'll hear you out, Mani, and your points made above--things which everyone wants in a sensible neighborhood to live in--are well taken. We really need to break up a city this large into neighborhoods when we assess using these criteria. Generalizations serve no purpose. When you assess central city neighborhoods i.e. Midtown and Downtown--the subject of our conversation--the fact is that they fulfill most of your criteria. The schools, clearly, will lag, but there really aren't any outstanding public schools anywhere in the state anymore. You also can't say that Detroit, taken as a whole, is still on the decline. The investment $$ and general interest flowing into the city currently are unmatched over the past 40 years. Total population can no longer be the gauge of a city's health. Somehow, despite government debt and a much-disliked mayor, the city shows signs of life it has lacked for decades. | ||
Jcdfde5 Member Username: Jcdfde5 Post Number: 17 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.43.115.185 |
fire fighters and police officers | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1104 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
I agree 100% with you Jcdfde5, than and education. With those three things, everything else follows... | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2787 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Jobs, and good Career opportunities, especially for those who are newly out of school... Better options for transit, snd more diverse recreational options (not that it is not diverse now) | ||
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect Post Number: 221 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.243.32.9 |
What all good cities need to be viable are: 1. MONEY; the ability to support yourself, raise a family, and throw a little cash around for the hell of it. 2. SAFTEY, only stupid people or people without the means to relocate will stay in an area where there is danger of bodily harm for themselves, or especially their loved ones. 3. SPIRIT; a sense that the place is important, that people care about it because it is worth it and has meaning. I think Detroit has had all these things in the past it has either lost some because of things out of its control, or squandered them as a result of bad decision making and poor leadership. I think that things may also be looking up. The Penske led cleanup campaign is a good thing. The tech incubator is a good thing. Compuware downtown is a good thing. Lofts downtown are a good thing. Even “cool cities” is a good thing. There are lots of good things happening. We need to do it like the way I make love to a woman. Keep pushing all the buttons until you find the ones that work. (I don’t know if that is true or not but I just wanted to post it) A couple of things I would like to see built Downtown: two first class elementary schools, and a middle school, all to feed Cass Tech. (HINT HINT, want to know what pulls families to the burbs). Newer schools would help the area attract a population that wants to put down roots. One or more “mega churches” similar to what is being built in exurbia, or even similar to some of the newer big ones in Detroit. Only smaller like “mini-mega churches” I think schools and churches and jobs are the building blocks for community. | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 39 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
Wait...and good sex! | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.153.127 |
and another thing, make Tiger Stadium a park for little leagues and recreational teams. Rent out the fields, have snack bars, tournaments etc. Wouldn't that be a thrill to play out there? Enjoy & employ, a win win situation, plus we've got to save it. It is too depressing seeing it wither away. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 171 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
24 hour, 7 day a week frequent safe SMART public bus service. Please sign petition http://savethefueltax.org | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4730 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
Trainman, Up to your public transit miracles again? SMART will increase the 24 hour buses service for all of the Tri-county areas. The SMART bus system depends on ridership. The higher the ridership the more schuedule routes, the lower the ridership the lower the routes. SMART needs to make money for a fuel, paying the combined bus unions by means of health care pensions, retirement pentions and other things. But it also needs millage money to keep it going. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 185 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Yes, it's true. In my website, I support the SMART tax but I think it is a mistake to not use the fuel tax also. The use of multiple tax mechanisms ensures a balance of funding options known to increase federal grants and ridership. I show this using SMART/DDOT ridership figures and many references. There are many documents that show how best to maximize the use of mass transit. Sure, there will always be some waste but we need to kick some serious ass in Detroit like what we did to put the World on wheels. Yes, Danny. Detroit can have a really awesome working class bus system and the efforts to bring out the best in both DDOT and SMART is the answer in my opinion. Since, you want the SMART tax then thate OK because in Livonia we will also pay. So, lets work to lower costs and fight the freeways then not just Livonia will come but many will join. We should have lots of tax sources and revenues for mass transit and concern ourselves with making them work. I'm game for a Lansing protest to get state revenue sharing restored for mass transit because thats the true purpose and meaning of transit funding. You see, this benefits all of us with compassion and thats what will pass the SMART tax but more is needed by our state to make it work. | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 71 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
Downtown needs fruit and vegetable stands on every corner. This will create a sense of community as people stop to buy on orange and some peanuts and say hello to friends who work in the penobscot or guardian or wherever. This is what people like, to greet each other, and feel like there is a community. It brings people together, all races. | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 160.39.243.181 |
how about just a place to buy fruits and vegetables? | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 300 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.215.246.96 |
Eastern Market is great for that. | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 73 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
Not goog enough. |
