  E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 871 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
Why can't Detroit do something like this? If we can throw millions of dollars toward facade improvement grants, why can't we throw a few thousands toward encouraging green roofs or channel Cobo's rain runoff into the Detroit River or at least put some plants on the roof of city hall? Greening of Chicago Starts at the Top Floor Mayor Pushes Urban Ecology Into the Mainstream By Peter Slevin and Kari Lydersen Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, August 10, 2006; Page A03 CHICAGO -- Atop the scalding eighth-floor roof of the Chicago Cultural Center, workers dripped sweat as they planted row upon tidy row of hardy plants, the latest signal of one big-city government's determination to be green. On other downtown rooftops, tall corkscrew-shaped turbines will bridle the winds that race across the plains. A new roof on Chicago's vast convention center will channel 55 million gallons of rainwater a year into Lake Michigan instead of overburdened storm drains. Skeptics snickered 17 years ago when Mayor Richard M. Daley added flowers and trees to the city's honey-do list. They scoffed at the apparent folly of beautifying a sprawling, gritty urban landscape, figuring Daley for a modern-day Potemkin. A few tulips, they figured, would be the end of it. But the city-kid mayor raised on the rough-and-tumble South Side stuck with it. The greening project grew strong roots, giving Chicago a reputation as one of the nation's most committed environmental cities of any size. The company it keeps is not Newark and Detroit, but Portland and Seattle. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/09/AR2006080901625.html?referrer=email (Message edited by E_hemingway on August 10, 2006) | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 3162 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
Well, we could stop apologizing for the trees growing off abandoned buildings, then. "Hey, it's not blight, it's environmentally sensitive!!" | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 805 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
"Green" is all relative.....where do you think all of the rainwater goes from all of the roofs now? Around here, it goes into the Detroit river, in Chicago, it already goes into lake michigan. While I'm all for landscaping to soften the gritty edges around here, a few trees and some grass aren't going to clean up anything. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 93 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Lets get the Riverfront taken care of first. You have to look at Chicago's central core more critically. The Loop area outside of the park area to the east, is mostly comprised of impervious surfaces (concrete, asphalt, buildings). The larger areas of impervious surface you have the more prone you are to flooding of basements and having run-off contaminate your streams and rivers. While Architecturally the Loop is phenomenal, it lacks these spaces even more than Detroit does. Where they do have outside plazas or squares, there is often times no grass; only trees and in seperated planting areas; which are often times a self contained unit. Therefore the next time you want to complain about a gravel parking lot in downtown Detroit, it could be worse, at least grave is a pervious surface! : ) The Riverwalk includes a softening of the shoreline. Why is this green? Because it will provide habitate for fish and turtles and increase the biodiversity of the river. Soon you may even see cattails regrowing along the river where it has been softened. You may even find a bird of prey swooping down to pick up a fish in the non-migratory season. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 872 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
I'm not complaining about the riverfront. That has been well thought out in terms of environmental concerns. But why can't the city be more proactive in encouraging green thinking? Take the green roofs idea. Any home that is in the shadow of mature trees will have a much lower electricity and heating bill each year than a house with no nearby trees because the trees shade help keep the house cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. Green roofs work on the same premise. They provide shade and insulation, allowing buildings to cut both electric and heating costs by as much as a third with the right green roof. These roofs also help reduce rain run off and, if properly maintained, last longer than traditional shingle or peet gravel roofs. In the long run with gas and electricity prices increasing at an alarming rate, such conservation more than pays for itself. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6573 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
http://www.greeningofdetroit.c om/member.htm | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 873 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
Greening Detroit is a great organization that does a lot of high-quality work. But imagine what it could do if the city emphasized that type of work on a level comparable to Chicago. Look at what the story says:
I know a lot of people believe comparing Detroit to Chicago is unfair or unrealistic or whatever. But that doesn't mean we should discard a good idea just because Chicago is at the forefront of it. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 95 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Hemingway, all I am saying is give it time. We already have some examples. Did you know that the Ren-Cen has always had a green roof? Did you know that the athletic club level of the Milender Center has a lush green lawn? We already probably have the world's largest Green roof at Rouge assembly. Maybe we can start by identifying buildings that might be candidates. You mentioned Cobo, but to be fair an engineering study needs to be done to see if appropriate areas can hold the weight (we sure know that the deck area can, but was there a reason why when Cobo was expanded that the parking deck wasn't? I'd like to submit others for consideration: MGM Grand Casino NBD/BancOne/Chase Compuware Joe Louis Arena Ford Field Regional malls such as Fairlane, 12 Oaks, Great Lakes, Somerset... (Message edited by Detroitplanner on August 10, 2006) | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2045 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
How are you going to pay for it. In a choice between an arborist and a cop or fireman, I'll take a cop or fireman. In a choice between water at my faucet and grass, I'll take water. In a choice between garbage collection and plants, I'll take the garbage collection. We aren't Chicago. We don't have any money to do this. The city can't afford necessary services and you want the city to pay for more planting. Get real. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 97 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Not all green roofs are dictated by the Mayor. Most are the result of a developer. I'd agree with NDavies that the City should not pay for green roofs until appropriate funding is found. How about it hemingway? Wanna have a bake sale? | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3579 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.21.37.77 |
Some of the largest corporations might disagree with that, IE:
http://www.usgbc.org/News/USGB CInTheNewsDetails.aspx?ID=2501 There was a time when industrial and natural landscapes were in opposite corners of a pretty bloody boxing ring. Now that’s all being changed. Ford hired sustainability guru William McDonough to redevelop the Rouge Center, where the F-150 is built, and they’ve ended up with the largest green roof in the world. Plus a load of other eco-innovations that bring industry and nature together. The 10.4 acre sedum roof insulates the building, provides a habitat for birds and insects, produces oxygen to offset the factory’s carbon dioxide emissions, and purifies rainwater. “Instead of having a chemical-based storm water treatment plant,” Ford says, “this system mimics nature.” Down on the ground, the area... ...surrounding the buildings has also been landscaped for natural water run-off and habitat creation. And not just that: the plants outside the factory and microbes on their roots use an experimental process called phytoremediation to remove manufacturing contaminants from the soil. Using an eco-system to your advantage rather than destroying it—hooray! Ford’s also testing a system to make hydrogen fuel for fuel cells (used with photovoltaic cells to power the factory) out of leftover volatile organic compounds—Fumes-to-Fuel, they call it. They’re rendering as much industrial waste as possible harmless or—even better—useful, which definitely shows the mark of McDonough’s C2C philosophy as well as the continuing spirit of Henry Ford’s industrial innovation. ::Ford Rouge Center ::William McDonough + Partners [by KK] http://www.treehugger.com/file s/2004/12/ford_rouge_cent.php | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 874 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
But this is a critical time for encouraging such policies with all of development occurring in the CBD and greater Grand Boulevard loop. The Ren Cen and Millender Center are a nice start, but why not city hall or the Compuware HQ or possibly a new Rock/Quicken Loans HQ or whatever goes on the Hudson site or the developments along the riverfront or the new buildings planed for Wayne State or the Tiger Stadium project? There are a lot of possibilities at this point. If the city or state or whatever provides a tax credit to these devlopments for putting in green roofs or some other environmentally concious technology than it could go a long way in helping discard the negative aspects of the rustbelt stigma. It would emphasize how the city is moving toward becoming a metropolis that embraces cutting-edge ideas. Such policies also help make the city more attractive to educated and environmental concious residents, workers and businesses and increases the quality of life for those that live here. It's not a cure all for the city, but it's a step or two in the right direction. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1676 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
This is where the building industry is going. A lot of owners are realizing they can save enormous amounts of money on their utilities by embracing sustainable design, even if it may cost a little more up-front. As energy prices rise, the savings will increase. All I know is when green building makes the Wall Street Journal (as it did last week), you know the tide is turning. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2089 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.138.127 |
I might be wrong but I think the BC/BS parking garage was supposed to have a running track and grass on top of it. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 875 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
I'm not advocating the city going on a CCC-style hiring spree of aborists or environmentalist. But the right sort of policies can go a long way. For instance:
The right incentive, waiving fees or providing quicker passage through bureacracy, can make a huge difference without hiring anyone. If the city is going to give out tax breaks galore, it might as well drive a little bit better bargain. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2046 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
Offering grants takes money away from other things. Waiving fees takes money away from other things. The only thing we should be waiving fees or offering grants for are things that will promote long term employment of city residents. (Message edited by ndavies on August 10, 2006) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 876 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
True, but look at the potential of what it can get in return. A greener city is more attractive to everyone, yuppies, industrialists and unionists alike. Have you ever heard anyone complain that there are just too many trees on their block or about the green roof on a plant or commercial building? Those types of things can go a long way toward raising property values and attracting tourism dollars. That means more tax money overall to hire more cops and firefighters. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2048 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
Sorry, it doesn't buy you anything if the trash isn't picked up first, if the traffic lights don't work, if the schools suck, if houses burn down due to lack of firefighters or if the murder rate is one of the highest in the country. Nobodies going to care about the landscaping if they can't get essential services. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3580 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.73.6.164 |
E_hemingway, If you're joining the ranks of us whacked-out, greeny, hippie, treehuggers, here's the website for you. http://www.treehugger.com Damn, I guess using an enviornmentally-friendly approach in today's society just won't help create jobs, save water and energy. I wonder what the CEO of Energy Conversions would say to that. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 877 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
Green policies aren't tied directly to poor performance of essential city services. Do we prioritize everything so we only concentrate all of our resources on one area, say crime, before working on anything else, say consistently working street lights? Should the money to build Campus Martius been put toward crime prevention? I know it was donated money, but should that generousity be put toward more police instead of the park? I'm not saying green policies should be the focus of city government, but there should be at least a small place for them. Yes, controlling the crime rate and having top-notch firefighters are essential, but so is taking care of our environment. We live here after all.
Do you think Ann Arbor's green policies didn't play a part in Google's decision to set up shop there? It may not have been the deciding factor, but does anyone not believe Ann Arbor's green policies don't significantly contribute to the city's quality of life that attracts the likes of Google and other high-tech firms? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2049 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
Do you really think google would have moved to Ann Arbor if they had one of the worst crime rates in the country, one of the worst school systems in the country, and one of the highest tax rates in the state. I'm sure the landscaping would have still brought them in. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1677 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
If the City of Detroit itself were to embrace sustainable design, it could actually SAVE some of that much-needed money that it currently spends on electricity, water, heat, air conditioning, sewer, etc. The private sector is starting to learn the benefits of green design. Now all it takes is the City and local design community to be there to support and encourage the private initiatives. Baby steps, folks. Baby steps, but you gotta start somewhere. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 878 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
A few green policies and essential services aren't mutually exclusive. You can have both. You're telling me that in the massive city budget, there isn't room for a few hundred thousand in tax breaks for a few dozen green roofs? And just because some money gets moved around doesn't mean another police officer is going to be lost. That's scare tactics, plain and simple. Why don't you just say that green policies wouldn't support the troops or let the terrorists win? | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3581 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.73.6.164 |
The City and State cries for new jobs, new industries yet when something is suggested that may lead to new technologies, it seems to be brushed off as merely too expensive. With the industrial background as well as the agricultural background, this State and region should be at the frontlines of Biotechnology. This is not just pretty landscaping. It is a source of jobs and job creation that should be encouraged. Biofuels and utilizing concepts in biodesign might be a big part of our rebound if encouraged. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1117 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Wasnt there talk about doing something similar to this with the COBO roof, but the parking issue got in the way??? Perhaps the city could offer tax incentives to building owners who put in a certain amount of this greenery on the roofs of downtown buildings. The tax savings could help with rent rates based on the low occupancy of many of the buildings. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 98 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
Speaking of green, has anyone seen who killed the electric car? There is a guy in Troy who is making solar panels that can be used to shingle roofs! Could you imagine that sort of technology? Even if it is used to just run fans, on warm, sunny days, t will save a the house owner quite a bit on energy costs. WOuld it not be cool if we could use this forum as a way to craft a model policy to give to the Council and Mayor of Detroit or any of the suburban communites? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2614 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.90.124 |
I'm not sure I would want Cobo Rooftop parking lot water running into the Detroit River... there's all the leaked oil, transmission fluid, leaking antifreeze. Rain runoff does not mean CLEAN WATER runoff. All that water running into your storm drain still has to be treated before discharge into the river. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1119 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Thats a good point, Gistok. Thats why perhaps some sort of landscaping could coexist with the parking lot on Cobo, to help absorb with some of that runoff | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2051 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
BS - The City is operating in a cumulative deficit of over $225 Million. There is not room to move a couple hundred thousand dollars or give $ 1 million in grants. IF you are so enamored with the idea, put together a proposal and shop it around to the foundations that would be interested in tackling the issue and helping the City instead of just criticizing. That's how the Greening of Detroit got started. They recognized that the City was having to make tough choices, identified a need and stepped up to fill the need. Golly - Heres one foundation to start with.....that is already encouraging green building for community groups.....maybe they could expand the program to help the City WHICH DOESN'T HAVE THE UP-FRONT CASH TO DO THIS. http://www.kresge.org/content/ displaycontent.aspx?CID=8 http://www.kresge.org/content/ displaycontent.aspx?CID=7 http://www.kresge.org/cms/uplo ads/HQfacts.pdf http://www.kresge.org/cms/uplo ads/HQdesignteam.pdf http://www.jsonline.com/story/ index.aspx?id=411028 | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 99 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
I'd think one of the biggest green policy that the city could have would be curbside recycling. If we can't afford that, how are we going to pull of more tax breaks? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2052 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
You won't get curbside recycling until the incinerator is shut down. The incinerator economics already don't work. Adding recycling makes the numbers worse. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 879 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
Excuse me, but I live in this city. I pay taxes and vote just like everyone else. I have every right to criticize it if I want to. As silly as it sounds, the people at city hall still work for the citizens of this city. It's still my right to make my voice heard, even if it's on an Internet forum. This is not pie-in-the-sky crap. Green policies are serious policies that are used by other major cities. Chicago just happens to be taking a lead in them. I'm not saying we should mimic everything they do, but it doesn't hurt to take a page or two from their playbook. And don't give me this, "Oh my God the budget's falling!" bull crap. If there's room for huge property tax breaks on new development then there's room a few thousand worth of tax breaks for green roofs or other environmentally concious technology. This is about longterm thinking and planning in the city, not about what will get us to the next financial year. When it comes down to it, this is a quality-of-life issue more than anything else. BTW, I would expect to see a big change in the way the city handles it garbage once the incinerator bonds are paid off in the next couple of years. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1122 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Way to go, E_Hemingway!!!! | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 518 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.246.29.185 |
I'm sorry, but tax breaks for development and this green stuff can't even be remotely compared . Last time I checked the city was in much more desperate of development, giving up money that could be the difference in attacting a company Quicken so we can plant some trees or someone put green roof is stupid. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2057 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
Yawn, What are you 15. Unable to take a little criticism. What you fail to realize is the tax incentives for new housing and new businesses lead to a net gain in tax receipts. An enviromental incentive only leads to lowered tax reciepts. If you don't fix the big picture items such as crime, schools and infrastructure, you will be left with the barren fields and empty office buildings we currently have. Without fixing the tax, crime, and school issues more businesses and middle class will be leaving the city. Enticing people and businesses to move into the city will do more for the environment than half asssed environmental incentives. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2616 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.105 |
On a different note... has anyone noticed that there are hardly any mature trees downtown? I mean the city keeps planting them, and then a few years later the get ripped out again when some other development idea gets into their head. Even those trees in Grand Circus Park are young. I know that trees get in the way of businesses signage. Then maybe we shouldn't be planting them where they eventually obscure signs. But I think that ripping them out repeatedly is a big waste of everyones scarce taxpayer dollars. Or the city should be planting dwarf trees, instead of the fast growing Locust trees that keep getting ripped out. And as far as not planting trees on lower Woodward between Campus Martius and Hart Plaza because it would block the view... I think that's sorta dumb. Had the city kept the ones that were planted there originally, they would have grown tall enough so that there would have been a view under the canopy. The locust tree in my back yard (planted 30 years ago) has a 20 foot tall "view" underneath the leaf canopy. (Message edited by Gistok on August 10, 2006) |
