Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Loyal Order of Moose Building... « Previous Next »
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 906
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know if these are the "death fences" around the Loyal Order of Moose Building on Cass? As in Lindell AC, JL Hudson Co, et al...I didn't see any sign for a demolition company but I didn't know if they advertise that fact or not. I was there a couple of days ago shooting some pixs of it and the GAR Building.

moose

Livedog2
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 693
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.246.10.173
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmmmmm looks like it to me
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 328
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check the "Classic Tour" section of this site. If I remember correctly it mentions that the basement of the Moose building extends beyond the actual building which in turn has caused the sidewalks to become unstable. The fence is to keep people from falling in.


(Message edited by Johnnny5 on August 14, 2006)
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 5018
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.41.124.8
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My info isn't very current on this one, but knowing a little bit about the ownership on that building, I'd be very, very surprised if those were death fences.
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 908
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope you are right because every one of those old majestic buildings of the past is worth saving! If they could talk the stories they could tell but I guess a lot of those stories do get told right here.

Livedog2
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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 1252
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.47.198.170
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are not "death fences."

The building has vaulted sidewalks, which where once glass and in the 60’s where replaced with concrete. The concrete has been failing for some time now.

Those fences have been there for years.

The Moose is not going anywhere.

(Message edited by dan on August 14, 2006)
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Troy
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Username: Troy

Post Number: 180
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.213.65
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah but the death might happen. The annual chin tiki tour right now is cancelled due to the fact that the Chin's sold the tiki bar to one Mike Illitch a couple of weeks ago. Sad to say that it looks like the end.
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 695
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.42.23.2
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please school me.. but what does that have to do with the Moose building?
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 880
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.242.215.8
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are adjacent to each other. One would hope that Ilitch would move Chin Tiki a block out of the way if the new Joe goes there or at least find a way to incorporate it with it.
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 696
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.42.23.2
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ahhhhh
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Caseyc
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Username: Caseyc

Post Number: 598
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 206.18.111.5
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

paging Blair McGowan...
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 910
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Please school me," what does this mean?


quote:

The building has vaulted sidewalks, which <where> once glass and in the 60’s <where> replaced with concrete. The concrete has been failing for some time now.




Livedog2
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2067
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The building's basement extends out under the sidewalk. The sidewalk is the roof of the extension. If the sidewalk breaks up you'll fall into the basement. Vaulted sidewalks are very common downtown.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1817
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 68.255.239.120
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the update, Dan. Now go finish editing "The Tower".
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Buddyinrichmond
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Username: Buddyinrichmond

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 67.38.28.69
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Those fences have been there for years.




Why does this property owner get a pass? If the place has been a hazard for years, requiring the securing of the public right of way (with a ROW permit?), why isn't the "preservation community" riding this guy like Michael Higgins?
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 913
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the clarification on "Vaulted sidewalks", Ndavies.

Livedog2
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 5019
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.41.124.8
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it's the public right-of-way, whose fault is it that the sidewalk is failing? the building owner, or the city?

Read Dan's post again- the building isn't falling onto the street.

I also think you need to take a look at who owns the building, and then go on your rant about the "preservation community."
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 914
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen!

Livedog2
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2071
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

paging Blair McGowan...




If I'm not mistaken, isn't Blair the guy that runs around criticizing the City for leaving buildings vacant and hasn't he been involved with many lawsuits against the City? All of which have failed or been tossed out?

Perhaps he ought to lead by example and do something with the Moose Lodge. Also he could help out by not letting people trash Congress every weekend with those damn fliers and little postcards in front his other building, St. Andrews. Nice way to restore that one too!
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Buddyinrichmond
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Username: Buddyinrichmond

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 67.38.28.69
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Being a card carrying member of a local preservation organization hardly earns one the free pass this guy gets on what is clearly a blight.

Parts of the buildings structural system supports the sidewalks. I suspect the neglect of said system is what has caused this deterioration. Things like damp, possibly flooded, basements without heat create some interesting freeze-thaw scenarios. There are two routes for the building owner to go:

1. Erect a perimeter wall based on the actual footprint of the building and eliminate this encroachment.

2. Embrace the asset (square footage) of this encroachment and pony up the dough to protect it.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2073
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aram asked:

quote:

If it's the public right-of-way, whose fault is it that the sidewalk is failing? the building owner, or the city?




The responsibility lies with the owner of the vault as they have an encroachment into City right of way. It is the legal obligation of those that own encroachments into City right of way to maintain the encroachment. I know this because I am part owner of a CBD building with encroaching vaults. In plain terms, the owner of the Moose Lodge is violating code.

Given the fact that the facade of St. Andrews is not being maintained or cleaned, even when facade grant dollars are available, the amount of litter generated at St, Andrews that clutters the neighborhood where I will live very shortly and the continued decay of the Moose Lodge, the actual preservation ethic of the ownership is fair game for questioning. Maybe George Jackson WAS right when he said DDA were the 'real' preservationists in town......

The Moose Lodge was one of the 140 buildings on the conspiracy theory "100 Building Hit List". To my knowledge it has been ticketed twice. Once for a total of 8 code violations and a second time one year later for not fixing the violations. I don't know the status of the tickets, but in my wanderings I have seen no evidence of any attempt to repair the very clear violations like the collapsing vaults.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2628
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.206
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone on this forum mentioned last year that Blair McGowan hasn't owned the Moose Lodge for at least 5 years now. Is that true? If so... it ain't Blair's anymore, if not... more misinformation on this Forum....

If he still does own it, he's probably encountering a common problem for this area... just try getting some financing for an area that even financial institutions expect to be an Arena in the future.

(Message edited by Gistok on August 14, 2006)
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 570
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.144.153.150
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sure, but I don't think that he owns St. Andrews anymore either.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2074
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So be it then if McGowan is no longer an owner or partner, then I stand corrected. The last information I had was that he was still an owner or at least partner is both buildings.....

It still does not change the fact that the owners of Moose Lodge are violating code and that the owners of St. Andrews, like many other clubs downtown, are huge contibuters to the trashing of downtown and don't seem to be held responsible for their actions.
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Caseyc
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Username: Caseyc

Post Number: 600
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 206.18.111.5
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't necessarily "page" Blair so that he could be called out and publicly flogged...Quite the contrary....6 or 7 years ago, he was quoted in the press (complete with on-site photo) as being involved with the Moose with an eye towards bringing it back as a viable space, and spoke in glowing terms about the Lodge. Whether or not he is still involved I have no idea. Folks are constantly tipping at windmills in downtown Detroit,and it sounds like his focus these days is more on the river (and back in Pontiac). That said, however, if the building IS in fact sliding into irreparable disrepair, he would be a good source of info on who in fact IS responsible, if he is no longer involved. If he is still involved (doubtful), then that's a good place to start.

As for nightclubs being responsible for independent party promoters handing out flyers....you should start a separate thread on that gripe.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2629
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.206
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ndavies, I just reread my thread, and the comment about "misinformation on the Forum" was not directed at you, but maybe at whoever told us last year that the Moose Lodge had a new owner. My bad! :-)
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Buddyinrichmond
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Username: Buddyinrichmond

Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 67.38.28.69
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's all public record.

quote:

Property Address [collapse]

2115 CASS
, 48201




Owner Information [collapse]

ANBAN INC Unit: 01


822 OAK
WYANDOTTE, MI 48192





quote:

Searched for: ANBAN, INC.

ID Num: 323663

Entity Name: ANBAN, INC.

Type of Entity: Domestic Profit Corporation
Resident Agent: BLAIR J. MCGOWAN

Registered Office Address: 22241 MIAMI GROSSE ISLE MI 48138


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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1823
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.212.62.221
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The last time I talked with Blair, he did own the Moose Lodge. I'll let him explain what he intends to do about it and/or I'll ask him when I next see him.

As for St. Andrews Hall, he sold the last of his interest in that one more that a year ago. I know because the FoBC used to use it as our mailing address. We had to stop when he sold the building and all interest in its operations.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2631
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.206
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well it looks like Blair McGowan still owns the Moose Lodge. I met Blair at a 1998 fundraiser for saving Hudson's at Intermezzo's.

I vaguely remember that conversation... Blair was complaining that he couldn't do anything with the Moose Lodge because of the possibility of the Arena moving to the west Foxtown site. IIRC he said that banks won't touch his building for financing because of that cloud hanging over the area.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2632
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.206
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And as for Chin-Tiki now being Ilitch owned... lets hope that Atanis Ilitch talks his dad into something creative for that building, even if it has to be moved. Let's at least hope that it remains SECURED until west Foxtown is developed.
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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 1253
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.149.196.25
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel compelled to respond, since I am Blair’s son.

My dad has for many years explored options for renovating the Moose. He was prepared to do so prior to the announcement of Comerica Park. At that time the stadium was announced to be West of Woodward, right on top of the Moose, rather than renovate a building he would have only lost (via imminent domain) he invested those monies in Pontiac (Where he has been involved in 5 historic renovations, with 3 more under construction right now).

The choice was made to move Comerica Park East of Woodward, but my Dad’s resources where already tided up, and it became difficult to find more money to renovate a building in an area in limbo.

For the Record:

He is no longer a partner at St. Andrews.

I would also like to point out that the club flyers around town are annoying as hell, but as Casey pointed out they are usually the work of outside promoters, AND they represent thriving businesses downtown. St. Andrews has exposed a great many suburbanites to downtown, if part of the cost of doing that is being annoyed a little with some flyers then I think it is worth it. I don’t throw the fliers from my windshield on the ground. I take them and throw them in the garbage, or set them on my desk.

You can criticism my Dad, but it doesn’t matter, he has dedicated a tremendous amount of time and money to preservation and social causes in this city. That fact doesn’t give him “the pass” on the Moose, believe me, he feels that frustration and pain more than anyone. He loves this city and has worked hard to keep the Moose from becoming a parking lot, and will continue to do so. It may have some water damage, and it may have a screwed up sidewalk, but that building is built solid, and it is not going anywhere.

When our current project in Pontiac is complete, there will be movement at the Moose. I know his next goal is to see that building restored.

http://www.detroitmoosehall.co m

(Message edited by dan on August 14, 2006)
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 808
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Dan, and even though I don't know Mr. McGowan at all, I do know that he ran St. Andrews Hall and the Shelter in downtown Detroit for many years, especially during alot times when NO ONE came downtown EVER. They were both a great impetus in my life to start coming downtown back in the late 1980's.......
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2633
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.90.149
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info Dan. Glad to hear that the Moose is not going anywhere. I always thought that it would make a wonderful entertainment neighbor for a new Hockey Arena!

Since most of us have never been inside, can you describe the interior for us??
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Cafe
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Username: Cafe

Post Number: 1340
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 84.162.2.7
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 7:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are some pictures on the web site that Dan posted.

Dan...you are a very nice and professional man. Thank you for addressing the concerns about the Moose.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 2099
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.138.127
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I find it hypocritical that you folks are willing to give this guy a free pass for the exact same thing you would be willing to persecute Illitch or Higgins for.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 685
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.212.169.194
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The ballroom reminds me of the layout of the House of Blues venues.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 6609
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel compelled to respond, since I am Blair’s son.

Oh oh. We need to talk.

Jeff McGowan
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 235
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.227.13.201
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Difference between McGowan and others:

1) McGowan has a track record of working to restore old buildings.
2) McGowan would not have been complicit in allowing an historic building to be demolished by the city of Detroit.
3) McGowan is my father too...

Detour Detroit McGowan
I'm tired of the lies!!!
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 6610
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It isn't generally known, but Rasputin's last name is "MCGowan," too. I'd always dismissed it as coincidence, but now I'm not so sure...

"Who's yer daddy?"
"Rasputin."
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Michael
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Username: Michael

Post Number: 767
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.74.6.49
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am Spartacus!

oh, sorry, I don't know where that came from.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2634
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.105.105
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merchantgander... how is BANKS WON'T FINANCE BECAUSE ARENA MAY GET PUT THERE... being hypocritical???

Unlike GCP and Capitol Park... no banks will touch any redevelopment in that area (yet).... it's not that difficult to understand!

(Message edited by Gistok on August 15, 2006)
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 927
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone have any photos of St. Andrews Hall they could post here or a link to where some photos might be?

Livedog2
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Buddyinrichmond
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Username: Buddyinrichmond

Post Number: 32
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 67.38.28.69
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many banks finance entertainment venues? Isn't that usually a private investor niche? If it were a residential conversion I am sure there would be several banks willing to finance the project. Who wouldn't develop this place when it's, to paraphrase, "70 percent incentivized"? Why wouldn't a bank finance simply because an arena may go near there? I am sure most development bankers, unlike most here, understand that eminent domain is no longer an option in Michigan.
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 930
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a painted sign on the back of the Loyal Order of Moose Building. I can read "Detroit" at the top and "Dancing" on the second line but I can't read the rest. Can anyone else read what the whole sign says?

dancing

Livedog2
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 256
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.65.11.152
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The bottom line looks like "every night except monday"

The top does not look like "Detroit" to me
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Caseyc
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Username: Caseyc

Post Number: 607
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 206.18.111.5
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

most assuredly the top says "NEKKID." Nuff said.
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 932
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good eyes, Thnk2mch! I think you're right.

Now, "NEKKID" might mean something to you, Caseyc but it doesn't mean anything to me. What does it mean?

Livedog2
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2636
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.159
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not getting into a pissing match over eminent domain. But for 7 of the last 8 years no banker would touch that property because of it. Now we know that the rules for Eminent Domain have been severely restricted.

Mr. McGowan has a proven track record of historic preservation (unlike some of the others mentioned). Just because he doesn't have a plan TODAY doesn't make him or the rest of us a hypocrite...

As Ndavies so succinctly put it... "how many of the rest of us who bitch or criticize have put our money where our mouths are? It's so easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain about others."
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Buddyinrichmond
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Username: Buddyinrichmond

Post Number: 33
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 67.38.28.69
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said Gistock. I'm just a toothpick farmer out here in Richmond with no room to talk.
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Livedog2
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Username: Livedog2

Post Number: 933
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's the other painted sign on the back of the Loyal Order of Moose Building.

sign

Livedog2

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