Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 906 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:25 am: | |
Does anyone know if these are the "death fences" around the Loyal Order of Moose Building on Cass? As in Lindell AC, JL Hudson Co, et al...I didn't see any sign for a demolition company but I didn't know if they advertise that fact or not. I was there a couple of days ago shooting some pixs of it and the GAR Building. Livedog2 |
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 693 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.173
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:29 am: | |
hmmmmm looks like it to me |
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5
Post Number: 328 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:34 am: | |
Check the "Classic Tour" section of this site. If I remember correctly it mentions that the basement of the Moose building extends beyond the actual building which in turn has caused the sidewalks to become unstable. The fence is to keep people from falling in. (Message edited by Johnnny5 on August 14, 2006) |
The_aram Member Username: The_aram
Post Number: 5018 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.124.8
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:03 am: | |
My info isn't very current on this one, but knowing a little bit about the ownership on that building, I'd be very, very surprised if those were death fences. |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 908 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:04 am: | |
I hope you are right because every one of those old majestic buildings of the past is worth saving! If they could talk the stories they could tell but I guess a lot of those stories do get told right here. Livedog2 |
Dan Member Username: Dan
Post Number: 1252 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.47.198.170
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:54 am: | |
They are not "death fences." The building has vaulted sidewalks, which where once glass and in the 60’s where replaced with concrete. The concrete has been failing for some time now. Those fences have been there for years. The Moose is not going anywhere. (Message edited by dan on August 14, 2006) |
Troy Member Username: Troy
Post Number: 180 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.37.213.65
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:24 am: | |
Ah but the death might happen. The annual chin tiki tour right now is cancelled due to the fact that the Chin's sold the tiki bar to one Mike Illitch a couple of weeks ago. Sad to say that it looks like the end. |
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 695 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.42.23.2
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:52 am: | |
Please school me.. but what does that have to do with the Moose building? |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 880 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:56 am: | |
They are adjacent to each other. One would hope that Ilitch would move Chin Tiki a block out of the way if the new Joe goes there or at least find a way to incorporate it with it. |
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 696 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 65.42.23.2
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:03 am: | |
ahhhhh |
Caseyc Member Username: Caseyc
Post Number: 598 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 206.18.111.5
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:05 am: | |
paging Blair McGowan... |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 910 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:55 am: | |
"Please school me," what does this mean?
quote:The building has vaulted sidewalks, which <where> once glass and in the 60’s <where> replaced with concrete. The concrete has been failing for some time now.
Livedog2 |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2067 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
The building's basement extends out under the sidewalk. The sidewalk is the roof of the extension. If the sidewalk breaks up you'll fall into the basement. Vaulted sidewalks are very common downtown. |
Fnemecek
Member Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1817 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.239.120
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:51 pm: | |
Thanks for the update, Dan. Now go finish editing "The Tower". |
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond
Post Number: 29 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 67.38.28.69
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:59 pm: | |
quote:Those fences have been there for years.
Why does this property owner get a pass? If the place has been a hazard for years, requiring the securing of the public right of way (with a ROW permit?), why isn't the "preservation community" riding this guy like Michael Higgins? |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 913 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:07 pm: | |
Thanks for the clarification on "Vaulted sidewalks", Ndavies. Livedog2 |
The_aram Member Username: The_aram
Post Number: 5019 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.124.8
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:09 pm: | |
If it's the public right-of-way, whose fault is it that the sidewalk is failing? the building owner, or the city? Read Dan's post again- the building isn't falling onto the street. I also think you need to take a look at who owns the building, and then go on your rant about the "preservation community." |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 914 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:00 pm: | |
Amen! Livedog2 |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2071 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:03 pm: | |
quote:paging Blair McGowan...
If I'm not mistaken, isn't Blair the guy that runs around criticizing the City for leaving buildings vacant and hasn't he been involved with many lawsuits against the City? All of which have failed or been tossed out? Perhaps he ought to lead by example and do something with the Moose Lodge. Also he could help out by not letting people trash Congress every weekend with those damn fliers and little postcards in front his other building, St. Andrews. Nice way to restore that one too! |
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond
Post Number: 30 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 67.38.28.69
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:06 pm: | |
Being a card carrying member of a local preservation organization hardly earns one the free pass this guy gets on what is clearly a blight. Parts of the buildings structural system supports the sidewalks. I suspect the neglect of said system is what has caused this deterioration. Things like damp, possibly flooded, basements without heat create some interesting freeze-thaw scenarios. There are two routes for the building owner to go: 1. Erect a perimeter wall based on the actual footprint of the building and eliminate this encroachment. 2. Embrace the asset (square footage) of this encroachment and pony up the dough to protect it. |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2073 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:38 pm: | |
Aram asked:
quote:If it's the public right-of-way, whose fault is it that the sidewalk is failing? the building owner, or the city?
The responsibility lies with the owner of the vault as they have an encroachment into City right of way. It is the legal obligation of those that own encroachments into City right of way to maintain the encroachment. I know this because I am part owner of a CBD building with encroaching vaults. In plain terms, the owner of the Moose Lodge is violating code. Given the fact that the facade of St. Andrews is not being maintained or cleaned, even when facade grant dollars are available, the amount of litter generated at St, Andrews that clutters the neighborhood where I will live very shortly and the continued decay of the Moose Lodge, the actual preservation ethic of the ownership is fair game for questioning. Maybe George Jackson WAS right when he said DDA were the 'real' preservationists in town...... The Moose Lodge was one of the 140 buildings on the conspiracy theory "100 Building Hit List". To my knowledge it has been ticketed twice. Once for a total of 8 code violations and a second time one year later for not fixing the violations. I don't know the status of the tickets, but in my wanderings I have seen no evidence of any attempt to repair the very clear violations like the collapsing vaults. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2628 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.206
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:38 pm: | |
Someone on this forum mentioned last year that Blair McGowan hasn't owned the Moose Lodge for at least 5 years now. Is that true? If so... it ain't Blair's anymore, if not... more misinformation on this Forum.... If he still does own it, he's probably encountering a common problem for this area... just try getting some financing for an area that even financial institutions expect to be an Arena in the future. (Message edited by Gistok on August 14, 2006) |
Swingline Member Username: Swingline
Post Number: 570 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.144.153.150
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:46 pm: | |
Not sure, but I don't think that he owns St. Andrews anymore either. |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2074 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:07 pm: | |
So be it then if McGowan is no longer an owner or partner, then I stand corrected. The last information I had was that he was still an owner or at least partner is both buildings..... It still does not change the fact that the owners of Moose Lodge are violating code and that the owners of St. Andrews, like many other clubs downtown, are huge contibuters to the trashing of downtown and don't seem to be held responsible for their actions. |
Caseyc Member Username: Caseyc
Post Number: 600 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 206.18.111.5
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:26 pm: | |
I didn't necessarily "page" Blair so that he could be called out and publicly flogged...Quite the contrary....6 or 7 years ago, he was quoted in the press (complete with on-site photo) as being involved with the Moose with an eye towards bringing it back as a viable space, and spoke in glowing terms about the Lodge. Whether or not he is still involved I have no idea. Folks are constantly tipping at windmills in downtown Detroit,and it sounds like his focus these days is more on the river (and back in Pontiac). That said, however, if the building IS in fact sliding into irreparable disrepair, he would be a good source of info on who in fact IS responsible, if he is no longer involved. If he is still involved (doubtful), then that's a good place to start. As for nightclubs being responsible for independent party promoters handing out flyers....you should start a separate thread on that gripe. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2629 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.206
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:37 pm: | |
Ndavies, I just reread my thread, and the comment about "misinformation on the Forum" was not directed at you, but maybe at whoever told us last year that the Moose Lodge had a new owner. My bad! |
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond
Post Number: 31 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 67.38.28.69
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:46 pm: | |
It's all public record.
quote:Property Address [collapse] 2115 CASS , 48201 Owner Information [collapse] ANBAN INC Unit: 01 822 OAK WYANDOTTE, MI 48192
quote:Searched for: ANBAN, INC. ID Num: 323663 Entity Name: ANBAN, INC. Type of Entity: Domestic Profit Corporation Resident Agent: BLAIR J. MCGOWAN Registered Office Address: 22241 MIAMI GROSSE ISLE MI 48138
|
Fnemecek
Member Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1823 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.62.221
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:00 pm: | |
The last time I talked with Blair, he did own the Moose Lodge. I'll let him explain what he intends to do about it and/or I'll ask him when I next see him. As for St. Andrews Hall, he sold the last of his interest in that one more that a year ago. I know because the FoBC used to use it as our mailing address. We had to stop when he sold the building and all interest in its operations. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2631 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.206
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:04 pm: | |
Well it looks like Blair McGowan still owns the Moose Lodge. I met Blair at a 1998 fundraiser for saving Hudson's at Intermezzo's. I vaguely remember that conversation... Blair was complaining that he couldn't do anything with the Moose Lodge because of the possibility of the Arena moving to the west Foxtown site. IIRC he said that banks won't touch his building for financing because of that cloud hanging over the area. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2632 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.206
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:09 pm: | |
And as for Chin-Tiki now being Ilitch owned... lets hope that Atanis Ilitch talks his dad into something creative for that building, even if it has to be moved. Let's at least hope that it remains SECURED until west Foxtown is developed. |
Dan Member Username: Dan
Post Number: 1253 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.149.196.25
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:59 pm: | |
I feel compelled to respond, since I am Blair’s son. My dad has for many years explored options for renovating the Moose. He was prepared to do so prior to the announcement of Comerica Park. At that time the stadium was announced to be West of Woodward, right on top of the Moose, rather than renovate a building he would have only lost (via imminent domain) he invested those monies in Pontiac (Where he has been involved in 5 historic renovations, with 3 more under construction right now). The choice was made to move Comerica Park East of Woodward, but my Dad’s resources where already tided up, and it became difficult to find more money to renovate a building in an area in limbo. For the Record: He is no longer a partner at St. Andrews. I would also like to point out that the club flyers around town are annoying as hell, but as Casey pointed out they are usually the work of outside promoters, AND they represent thriving businesses downtown. St. Andrews has exposed a great many suburbanites to downtown, if part of the cost of doing that is being annoyed a little with some flyers then I think it is worth it. I don’t throw the fliers from my windshield on the ground. I take them and throw them in the garbage, or set them on my desk. You can criticism my Dad, but it doesn’t matter, he has dedicated a tremendous amount of time and money to preservation and social causes in this city. That fact doesn’t give him “the pass” on the Moose, believe me, he feels that frustration and pain more than anyone. He loves this city and has worked hard to keep the Moose from becoming a parking lot, and will continue to do so. It may have some water damage, and it may have a screwed up sidewalk, but that building is built solid, and it is not going anywhere. When our current project in Pontiac is complete, there will be movement at the Moose. I know his next goal is to see that building restored. http://www.detroitmoosehall.co m (Message edited by dan on August 14, 2006) |
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man
Post Number: 808 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:12 pm: | |
Thank you Dan, and even though I don't know Mr. McGowan at all, I do know that he ran St. Andrews Hall and the Shelter in downtown Detroit for many years, especially during alot times when NO ONE came downtown EVER. They were both a great impetus in my life to start coming downtown back in the late 1980's....... |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2633 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.90.149
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:12 am: | |
Thanks for the info Dan. Glad to hear that the Moose is not going anywhere. I always thought that it would make a wonderful entertainment neighbor for a new Hockey Arena! Since most of us have never been inside, can you describe the interior for us?? |
Cafe Member Username: Cafe
Post Number: 1340 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 84.162.2.7
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 7:18 am: | |
There are some pictures on the web site that Dan posted. Dan...you are a very nice and professional man. Thank you for addressing the concerns about the Moose. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 2099 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.138.127
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:14 am: | |
I find it hypocritical that you folks are willing to give this guy a free pass for the exact same thing you would be willing to persecute Illitch or Higgins for. |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 685 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:37 am: | |
The ballroom reminds me of the layout of the House of Blues venues. |
Itsjeff
Member Username: Itsjeff
Post Number: 6609 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:49 am: | |
I feel compelled to respond, since I am Blair’s son. Oh oh. We need to talk. Jeff McGowan |
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 235 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.227.13.201
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:16 am: | |
Difference between McGowan and others: 1) McGowan has a track record of working to restore old buildings. 2) McGowan would not have been complicit in allowing an historic building to be demolished by the city of Detroit. 3) McGowan is my father too... Detour Detroit McGowan I'm tired of the lies!!! |
Itsjeff
Member Username: Itsjeff
Post Number: 6610 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:22 am: | |
It isn't generally known, but Rasputin's last name is "MCGowan," too. I'd always dismissed it as coincidence, but now I'm not so sure... "Who's yer daddy?" "Rasputin." |
Michael Member Username: Michael
Post Number: 767 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.74.6.49
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:22 pm: | |
I am Spartacus! oh, sorry, I don't know where that came from. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2634 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.105
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:33 pm: | |
Merchantgander... how is BANKS WON'T FINANCE BECAUSE ARENA MAY GET PUT THERE... being hypocritical??? Unlike GCP and Capitol Park... no banks will touch any redevelopment in that area (yet).... it's not that difficult to understand! (Message edited by Gistok on August 15, 2006) |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 927 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:42 pm: | |
Does anyone have any photos of St. Andrews Hall they could post here or a link to where some photos might be? Livedog2 |
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond
Post Number: 32 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 67.38.28.69
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:32 pm: | |
How many banks finance entertainment venues? Isn't that usually a private investor niche? If it were a residential conversion I am sure there would be several banks willing to finance the project. Who wouldn't develop this place when it's, to paraphrase, "70 percent incentivized"? Why wouldn't a bank finance simply because an arena may go near there? I am sure most development bankers, unlike most here, understand that eminent domain is no longer an option in Michigan. |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 930 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:47 pm: | |
This is a painted sign on the back of the Loyal Order of Moose Building. I can read "Detroit" at the top and "Dancing" on the second line but I can't read the rest. Can anyone else read what the whole sign says? Livedog2 |
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 256 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.65.11.152
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:58 pm: | |
The bottom line looks like "every night except monday" The top does not look like "Detroit" to me |
Caseyc Member Username: Caseyc
Post Number: 607 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 206.18.111.5
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:04 pm: | |
most assuredly the top says "NEKKID." Nuff said. |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 932 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:08 pm: | |
Good eyes, Thnk2mch! I think you're right. Now, "NEKKID" might mean something to you, Caseyc but it doesn't mean anything to me. What does it mean? Livedog2 |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2636 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.159
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:09 pm: | |
I'm not getting into a pissing match over eminent domain. But for 7 of the last 8 years no banker would touch that property because of it. Now we know that the rules for Eminent Domain have been severely restricted. Mr. McGowan has a proven track record of historic preservation (unlike some of the others mentioned). Just because he doesn't have a plan TODAY doesn't make him or the rest of us a hypocrite... As Ndavies so succinctly put it... "how many of the rest of us who bitch or criticize have put our money where our mouths are? It's so easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain about others." |
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond
Post Number: 33 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 67.38.28.69
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:12 pm: | |
Well said Gistock. I'm just a toothpick farmer out here in Richmond with no room to talk. |
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2
Post Number: 933 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177
| Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:14 pm: | |
Here's the other painted sign on the back of the Loyal Order of Moose Building. Livedog2 |