  Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 414 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
The following link is to the contract proposal set out by DPS. Mind you, this contract really hurts the newer teachers and will scare away teacher candidates. The highest paid teachers are also calling for a raise, while the newer teachers are supposed to take a pay cut, pay more for health benefits (the older teachers pay nothing toward health benefits). By the looks of the contract, what we would be allowed for health benefits will be drastically reduced. Thought some of you might be interested to see what the district has proposed as a means of cost cutting. http://www.dft231.com/dps_cont ract_proposals.htm | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1133 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Lunch duty makes $28 per hour?? Is there a seperate lunch staff in Detroit or are the teachers responsible?? I know in Brighton the wages are much lower, and in Whitmore Lake they start below $7 per hour..... | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 416 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Because teachers have to give up THEIR lunch to cover lunch duty, they are compensated (in addition to covering classes on their prep, which means absolutely no break at all during the day save the 5 minutes between classes to go to the restroom). It's a volunteer job and not many in our school volunteer. It's hazardous and requires teachers to do janitorial work as well as keep 300 kids under control. I did it for three years (not paid) and will never do it again! There is not a lunch staff, other than teachers. The number of teachers for each of the 4 lunch periods: 2 | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4820 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
Detroitteacher, That's how POOR the DPS School system is. It's going to back to 1850s culture schoolhouse style. Good luck telling the DPS Board for higher paycheck and smaller class sizes becuase they won't give it to you or the DPS teachers so ahead, STRIKE,STRIKE, STRIKE, and show your solidarity pride. And tell them NO WORK until the contract is made. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1285 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"Lunch duty makes $28 per hour?? Is there a seperate lunch staff in Detroit or are the teachers responsible?? I know in Brighton the wages are much lower, and in Whitmore Lake they start below $7 per hour....." That's just another little secret that the teachers and their unions would not have the general (taxpaying) public know anything about. Some schooldays were only 6 hours and 40 minutes long a few years ago until Michigan ordered some schools to lengthen their workday by about a dozen minutes. Most workers in real jobs put in a minimum 8 1/2 hour day or more usually nine hours, whereas teachers can get away with a workday only seven hours long and if they "work" during lunch, they get paid at a $28/hr rate. They can still eat during this time, so it's not as if they are giving up anything calorie-wise. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 285 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.181.41 |
So a teacher isn't a real job? | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 421 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Livernois: I challenge you to come do lunch duty for 1 week at the high school level (the only level teachers can do lunch duty). On average, I WORK about 12 hours a day (and work the weekends and holidays). 7 hours at work (I have to cover classes for absent teachers on my prep and tutor or help kids during my lunch), grade papers at home, lesson plans need to be made, I have to go to school to keep my teaching credentials (which means homework needs to be done for those classes), etc. Where do you get off saying I only work 6 hours a day or so? I WISH that were the case. We don't get 15 minute breaks every 4 hours. When we call in because we are sick we go back to mounds of paperwork, getting our classes back on track...my kids are there even when I'm not. I just don't call in sick.I even went in to work (not knowing, of course) with Menengitis (so serious I had to be hospitalized). I also go into work with the flu, ear infections, sinus infections and the like (you see, we catch this stuff from the kids). I think corporate America takes a day off if they are that sick. Corporate America also doesn't HAVE to do work at home, teachers do. Teachers volunteer (yes, not paid) to stay and chaperone sports events, dances, tutoring, extra help, etc. I have more of a real job than most. I am under constant scrutiny and if I make a mistake, there are 200 people to whom I need to answer (plus their parents). I'd like to see the average person go in and teach (and do a decent job of it). We not only teach, we: referee, counsel, advise, mother/father, provide food, provide money, coach, tutor, laugh and cry with our kids. I don't think coporate America can say that about their jobs. They don't touch too many lives and see a direct result, I do. Corporate America isn't also asked to reach into their pockets daily and buy supplies for their employer (teachers do that for kids and the school). I'm not asking for much, just to be able to live. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 135 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
With all due respect, you have NO idea what corporate america is all about. Most of us do have a really good idea of what teaching is all about. We all attended school and watched teachers at work our entire childhood. I have a lot better idea of what your job is like than you do mine. We know that your experience, if honest, is not reflective of most teachers. In a prior post you claimed you worked from (as I recall) 5:00 am to midnight everyday, I'm guessing that's not typical. If you think that you're not getting what you deserved then get a new job. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7754 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
And in the same vein if you think teachers have it so easy become a teacher. What you see in the classroom is not a 100% representation of all of the effort that teachers put into their work. Seems to me that a lot of people believe teachers are overpaid and have it so easy. If that is the case why aren't all of these people becoming teachers. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 826 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
Because becoming a teacher is like giving up on life....in my estimation. No chance for promotion, no chance of getting fired. Show up to work and they pay you money.....the thought of it makes me want to slit my wrists. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 120 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
quote: Most of us do have a really good idea of what teaching is all about. We all attended school and watched teachers at work our entire childhood. I have a lot better idea of what your job is like than you do mine. We know that your experience, if honest, is not reflective of most teachers. In a prior post you claimed you worked from (as I recall) 5:00 am to midnight everyday, I'm guessing that's not typical. ______________________________ ___________________ Spart, by your logic, anybody who has seen the movie Officespace knows what corporate America is like. Obviously you do not know any teachers, otherwise you would know that they DO spend 12 or more hours a day working. I know because I have 4 teachers in my family and see first hand all the work they do. My ex-wife is a teacher and I can't even count how many nights I spent by myself while she was preparing her lesson plans and dealing with the parents. Parents who were know it alls like yourself, and they all thought they were smarter then the teachers. You need to stop drinking the kool-aid that your right wing politicians heros are serving. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs a person can have. Nobody goes into it for the money, thats for sure. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 479 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138 |
Janna Garrison is very weak compounded by the fact that there isn't anyone ready to take over and it put in on the right course. Who's the alternative? The communist Steve Cohn! DFT needs someone highly credible with strong legal and finance backgrounds. Someone who recognizes that the way of doing things today differs greatly from the way things were done in the past, yet, still negotiates effectively. On top of this, DPS must negotiate with several other union groups on top of the DFT such as Operating Engineers. DPS has building custodians that have "building engineers" titles. These individuals get paid $60k and more when you factor in overtime. Yet, they are not engineers nor do they have engineering degrees. Now, let's talk about what they do: * Turn on the heat in the building. * Adjust the thermostats. * Hang bulletin boards. * Change light bulbs. * Change ceiling tiles. For $60k plus? That's insane and a ton more than a lot of teachers make. DPS has Attendance Officers and School Social Workers that make as much (if not more) than certified teachers make too - $40k plus. Again, insane! The system is completely out of whack and the 90% of black children making up the District suffer. It is a crime - Bring in DOJ and charge DPS with Civil Right violations against children that forces change to happen. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 136 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
"Seems to me that a lot of people believe teachers are overpaid and have it so easy. If that is the case why aren't all of these people becoming teachers." Ummmm isn't that why there are currently more teachers than positions in Michigan. Young teachers have to leave the state to find work. "Spart, by your logic, anybody who has seen the movie Officespace knows what corporate America is like." Are you seriously comparing a 90 minute movie to spending 7 hours a day for 12 years in a class room? | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 122 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
And you saw what they did away from the classroom? Its funny how everybody can pile on teachers for their small salarys but have no problem with crooks like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers and the like make millons. Don't try to tell me that they are overpayed, even at $70,000/yr which most DO NOT earn, it is still underpaid for the service they provide. Wake up and do some research before you make jack-ass comments. | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
This is a fasinating subject because nothing is all black and white just different shades of grey. On one hand the teachers are in certain instances underpaid and their salaries aren't keeping pace with inflation. But, then again who's wages are keeping up with inflation. The teachers want wage increases but how do you justify a wage increase? You can't justify it by the quality of the average DPS graduate. You can't justify it by test scores, the only way you can justify it is by time on the job. I heard the analogy with the automotive industry and the retort that kids are not cars...True. but the school and auto unions are set up with the same objectives and goals. At least the automotive unions have quality,sales and cost systems in place with their rank and file where a wage increase can be justified. For example I think the public would feel a bit better about the schools if their was a realistic method of removing incompetant teachers rather than that joke of a process in place now where the teacher has advanced notice of an evaluation taking place and all they have to do is take a vacation or sick day that day and they can do that multiple times. Yes, if you follow the process to the letter and the teacher cooperates your prize will be you get to move that teacher to another school to go through the same process all over again. Unfortunately this teachers union is ignoring the laws or supply and demand. If there is a strike, for the first time in history parents will have a true option. You can expect charter schools to step up their advertising and get more than the expected 10,000 students that were expected to leave DPS anyway. The teachers will get there increase, then probably find a significant number of them being laid off due to declining enrollment. All that being said the grey part is that I do think many teachers try and do a good job but between parents and some adminstrators it is very difficult to be effective. The problem is that the good teachers has allowed themselves to get lumped with the no-so-good ones and now they are flying into the face of economic reality. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 424 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Spart: Michigan has one of the best teacher training programs in the US. MANY people come from other states to receive their education then go elsewhere to teach. If you have taught in Michigan, or received credentials from Michigan, you can pretty much teach anywhere you want. BTW, I DO know what corporate America is like. Not only was I in Corporate America, I have family that are in Corp. America. C. A. gets paid vacations...teachers don't. I don't get paid for summers, Christmas, Easter and the other vacations I am forced to take. I love my job, that is why I am still doing it. I love my students and they deserve good teachers. There is not an overload of teachers flocking to Detroit to get jobs. I stay because I am dedicated. I could easily get a job in a more affluent district and make much more money. I want to be in Detroit. No one can fault me for that. I would, however, like to make a decent wage at my current place of employ and not have to take pay cuts. If DPS would supply me with what I need to do my job, instead of my having to go and buy it myself, then maybe I wouldn't bitch about the pay cuts. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 123 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
quote: But, then again who's wages are keeping up with inflation. ______________________________ ___________________ Politicians. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 137 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
DetroiteJ72: Your logic impaired posts coupled with the name calling leave me to believe that you either lack innate intelligence or should have spent more time in school. (Message edited by spartacus on August 17, 2006) | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 124 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 66.184.3.44 |
Perhap you should spend some time watching a teacher for the whole day.(including what they do at home) Then you would be better qualified to comment about their jobs. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4837 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.165.50 |
Detroitteacher, Even though the Detroit Public School system gives you severely reduced pay, bad classrooms, ignorant kids and lack of suplies. You know are true dedicated teacher that never give up on the childrens' futures. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 138 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
Detroitteacher: When people talk about compensation they usually ignore the pension issue. Defined benefit pension plans have become quite rare and are extremely valuable. How does the pension work for DPS teachers? I'm assuming you get X% of your highest salary assuming you have worked y years. Could you fill in the blanks a little? | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 425 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Quote: if their was a realistic method of removing incompetant teachers rather than that joke of a process in place now where the teacher has advanced notice of an evaluation taking place and all they have to do is take a vacation or sick day that day and they can do that multiple times. I so agree with that. I wish we could get some of those teachers OUT of the classroom. They are hurting the kids and ruining the reputation of the good teachers. The evaluation process is a joke. I have an open door class, anyone at anytime can just walk by and see what I am doing. DPS has already borrowed 5 days pay from its teachers and now wants to borrow more. I don't see how the teachers can support the district and themselves at the same time. I beleive that if someone with any sense would go in and igure out where all the money is going (4 million disappeared) and stop the no-bid contracts (usually they have to pay twice for the same job because the yutz who did it the first time screwed up. ie Cooley's roof is STILL leaking to the point we had to shut down stairwells because the ceiling was falling down, despite having been fixed two years ago). Teachers now must clean their own rooms, buy their own supplies, etc. Where in corporate America does this happen Spart?? | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 426 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Spart: I'm still relatively young so pension hasn't been an issue with me. Here is what I know from what I have to do (which is different than older teachers). I pay into my MIP (retirement fund) from each pay. The district pays a percentage of what I pay into it. I also have a seperate TDA account that I pay into that the district does not. The TDA is voluntary. What the district kicks in for my pension is not much per pay (can't give an exact number at the moment). The pension plans for older and retired teachers is different than mine. I don't know the specifics on theirs. Just as the older teachers pay nothing toward health insurance whereas I pay for medical/dental (I guess that is where my beef is...). The older teachers are demanding a pay increase, and still pay nothing for benefits. I'll be perfectly happy if they keep my pay the same and not take anything away (like they took this past year) but not make me pay anymore for my benefits (I just received a letter that they were raising my portion of the payment). I say make the older teachers (hired before 1992) pay for some of their benefits, as well. That might cut down on some costs, right there. | ||
Mumbly Member Username: Mumbly Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.212.123.134 |
Most of us office workers can only dream of having an entire summer off of work. We're chained to our cubicles while teachers are outside enjoying 2-3 months of sunshine and fresh air. (Must be nice to have all that time available for long, leisurely trips.) Also, office workers rarely get 16 consecutive days off for the winter holidays like teachers do. Oh, and teachers' pensions are much more solid than office workers' pensions. | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
There needs to be a fundamental change in the way Detroiters think about their schools and their school system. As long as people act like the primary reason for DPS existance is to create jobs for people or so that school board members can influence who gets what contracts then the educational aspect of what DPS is all about will get lost. The students and teachers as a result will become secondary. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 431 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Who gets months off? Not me! I attend classes, do workshops, prepare for the next school year, etc. All at my own expense. We get two weeks off at Christmas (much like an office workers vacation time) but we don't get paid for that! Office workers get PAID vacations if they so choose and they can decide WHEN to take a vacation. Teachers can't. Long leisurly trips? I took 2 days and went to TN (to pick up a family heirloom that couldn't be shipped). That is the extent of leisurly vacations. Know the facts before becomming jealous!! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 433 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Ah, and pensions? Did you see what they did to the Firefighter's and Cop's pensions?? I don't think mine is all that secure, which is why I sack money away in my TDA. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1857 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
Looks like the teachers are headed for a strike. Not a smart move IMO: http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20060821/NEWS01/ 608210330 | ||
Cris Member Username: Cris Post Number: 424 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.227.30.129 |
Gamblingman, can I have your phone number so I can call you from my boat each weekday during the summer while you are working in a windowless casino and I'm enjoying my summers off? I love being a teacher! | ||
Cris Member Username: Cris Post Number: 425 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.227.30.129 |
Detroitteacher, I've been teaching for quite a few years. When people act jealous (which many of them here are doing) just smile. Your boss knows how many hours you really work. Let those who know nothing and think they are experts on the teaching profession just because they sat in classrooms as kids go about their business. They will always be out there, and it will never change. I no longer waste my precious energy and time arguing with idiots about my profession. And if they're not paying you enough, start sending out your resumes before you get too high up the pay scale and don't want to lose your seniority. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1075 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
DPS has nothing to do with determining teachers pension, it is defined by the state and run by the state, but paid for with schools allowance money. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 458 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Exactly Bob. Cris, I already have too much seniority to switch districts. Besides, I LOVE where I am at (the kids, not the red tape). My pay is fine (if they were paying me where I should be according to my contract), it's just all the BS that goes with DPS. I don't plan on leaving DPS anytime soon. As far as the strike goes, just remember, we don't get paid for our "strike". No strike pay at all. I am NOT in favor of striking (for numerous reasons but most of all the kids need to be in school on time...they lose enough over summer and extra time off just puts them further behind). | ||
Rasputin Member Username: Rasputin Post Number: 3764 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Excellent post, Cris. Black-atcha ..... | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1860 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
As a Detroit homeowners with kids who will be of school age in just a few years, my wife and I have been watching the DPS very carefully. We'd love to send our kids to a public schools, but right now we're not real comfortable with the idea of DPS, at least in its current state. If the teachers went on strike I think the damage to the district all around would be far greater than any gains made by the teachers. If you think 10,000 students lost a year is bad, just watch what a strike will do. No parent wants to put their kids in a school district where the start of school is in jeopardy every year, let alone all the other problems. If the teachers strike, the DPS will crumble away into nothing faster than it already is. All the work that's being done to recruit students who's parents have a choice of schools for their kids will evaporate. These parents will pull their kids in a heart beat. And getting them back will be way harder than trying to keep them in DPS even with all the hassles they're currently dealing with. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 459 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Bvos, I agree. However, I see an abundance of kids who started at other schools (in the fall) and usually end up in DPS at some point in the semester. Many times it's after the official "fourth Friday count" so DPS doesn't get the money for those kids. This happens for a variety of reasons. many kids who leave DPS do come back, it's just after count day and their numbers aren't reflected for budget purposes or media purposes. I agree that a strike would jeapordize alot in DPS. I am NOT in agreement with a strike. I'm anxious to get back to my kids. DPS does have many great teachers and it would be a shame if the district can't get its act together to retain those teachers and the kids. Teachers are supposed to meet at Cobo on Sunday for the unofficial vote on whether to strike or not. Keep your fingers crossed. Might want to watch the news that night and see what the verdict is. Unfortunately, nuts like Steve Conn often steal the show and get folks riled up. DPS teachers have been hurt countless times by his rallying and nonesense. Anyway, that's my perspective. I'll be voting to go back to work. | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 13 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I bet the head of the DFT even if she personally did not want to strike almost has to in order to keep the teachers happy. I'm afraid that the teachers might be going into a "win the battle, lose the war" type of situation. Even if the kids that DPS might lose comes back they won't be back until after the fourth Friday count and that's not going to help the budget for this year. I'm already hearing certain charter schools ramping up their advertising in anticipation. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 317 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.181.41 |
Bottom feeders are always ready to take advantage of a situation. I always wonder which side Steve Conn is really on. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 460 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Steve Conn has his own agenda. Not sure what that agenda is...but he has one. He's toxic to say the least!! I know many teachers who don't want to strike. Most of them are like me, newer to the profession and raring to go. Firstandten, you are right, Charters are already waiting with baited breath. They keep our kids until after count day and then find some way to get rid of them. Hurts DPS and the kids. Sad situation. Please hope and pray that we don't strike. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 484 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138 |
Janna Garrison and the DFT versus Bill Coleman and DPS - What a joke! All DPS students but especially Detroit's black school children, representing 90% of the district, continue sufferring! It's a crime! | ||
Moreta Member Username: Moreta Post Number: 264 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
All the school children suffer, not one race more than another, when a district is in such trouble. I mark segments of my school years by the strikes. I remember my mom giving me worksheets to do to keep me occupied and engaged when the teachers were on strike and I was in elementary school. I remember the long strike of the fall of '92 when I got a full time job just to pass the time as the strike ate away at my senior year. Strikes are horrible for all the kids, the seniors, the entering kindergarteners. This district has to get its act together and address the administrative issues that result in such an adversarial relationship with its teachers, not to mention the financial mismanagement that has resulted in this constant battle with the budget. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 464 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I agree that strikes are terrible for the kids. I feel for my seniors who will be behind in everything if we strike. There needs to be some type of system in place (I don't care WHO oversees it) where there is a viable medium. The financial fiascos that have plagued the district need to be looked at. They are continuing despite a new board, audits and all sorts of other things. The teachers, for the most part, are on the side of the student. What we really want is for safe schools, materials and supplies, and class size management. We would also like for building subs to be reinstated (right now, we cover classes for absent teachers, often to the tune of zero break during the day). We realize that the economy is horrible and enrollment is down. Having smaller classes and supplies (oh, like books) might bring in more kids. It's all logic. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 471 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Edison pulled out of Inkster schools. Where has it left them? Back at square one. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 472 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
DPS needs something that will work on a permanent basis, not just a temporary fix. It worked a long time ago is not a reasonable solution. It's not the teaching that needs fixing so much as the "teachers need updated materials with which to teach" that is the problem. I'm not saying that there aren't some awful teachers, there are. I can't really do much teaching when I have kids standing, sitting on top of my desk and on windowsills. They say enrollment is down. I don't see that. MY enrollment is up. 60 kids to a room isn't fair for the teachers or the kids. We just don't have the space. It's things like this that teachers are fighting about. Honestly, I am hard pressed to see much learning going on with the conditions of the classrooms as they are now. I need books, desks, supplies. I'm willing to keep my pay the same, just give me stuff for my students and stop borrowing money off of me (I really don't have it to lend). I'd like to see the crappy teachers fired (these are the same people who are at the highest salary, don't pay for benefits, and do nothing but make my job more difficult by not teaching or expecting anything from the kids). I'd like to see alot but I doubt if it will happen. It's a sad day when an employer has to borrow money from its employees just to stay afloat and still can't provide a quality service. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1076 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Any of these corporate companies that have "taken over" school have left it in worse shape than it started in, and then ends up pulling out. Edison was a complete failure with the Inkster schools. The problem with these corporations taking over schools (and charter schools for that matter) is the company is trying to make a profit (and allowed to by law), so they cut as many corners as they can to do this. The biggest corner they cut is taking care of the teachers and staff. The staff is paid so poorly, and their benefits are so bad, that there is an extremely high staff turnover rate. It is rare to find teachers that stay in a charter school longer than a couple years. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 474 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I know a Principal at a charter school and he offered me a job (working with at risk kids). He couldn't pay me half of what I am making now. I was amazed. I know a few charter teachers and they hate their jobs. Teachers and kids come and go at alarming rates. At least I can say I love my job (well, the kids anyway). I'm not charter school bashing. My son went to a charter for a few years. It's great for some kids but horrible for the staff. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4858 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.84.90 |
OH OH, When I explain to the Ghettoman about corporte takeover of public schools. He said to me that " There are evil!" "THEY" don't necessary provided educational curricular activities to the teachers and students. He also said to me that corporate sponsord public schools are APT!! "THEY" would drain away a child's chance for a productive future in America. And he gave me this article to explain why: by John F. Borowski For several years, I have watched a torrent of corporate-sponsored materials enter our schools: coloring books by the coal industry, biotech giants proclaiming that genetically engineered foods are needed to feed a growing population, and logging interests that justify the vast clearcuts that scar our public lands. As a science teacher, I struggle with inadequate budgets and overcrowded classes - as do my colleagues around the country. Free curriculum can be a blessing, an opportunity to bring new and exciting materials into science courses. But I worry that new teachers, strained for resources and unfamiliar with the bias inherent in these materials, may be aiding and abetting this propaganda campaign. Here's an example: Ford Motor Company recently donated $1.5 million dollars to "Provider Pals." This puppet show is designed to put a face on miners, loggers, and ranchers: a very happy face indeed. It's organized by Bruce Vincent, an outspoken defender of logging, mining and grazing on public lands. Vincent and his band of "providers" apparently show the city kiddies how wood, meat, and other resources are brought to the market. Teachers and students get to play logger or cowboy for the day, roping plastic cows and counting the rings of a giant redwood slab. But this is lying by omission. The students won't learn about the practices of ranchers who routinely trap, poison, and snare predators. And the teachers won't receive modules on the downside of cutting forests and replanting sterile rows of monocultures - or the threats to water, wildlife, and climate from massive fragmentation of clearcut logging. Will the miner character describe the practice of mountaintop removal in West Virginia that is tearing up mountains and leaving a legacy of acid drainage and strip mines for the future? Who is going to expose these practices? After all, no good citizen would criticize American icons like the cowboy and logger. "Provider Pals" wants us to know that loggers, miners, and ranchers are good, hardworking rural folk. And that's a valid message. But unless urban kids have access to the whole story, like the downsides of forestry for profit, programs like this one are akin to corporate commercials. TEACHING IN LOGGING COUNTRY I teach in a small logging town in Oregon. In past decades, corporations like Boise Cascade and Weyerhaeuser destroyed millions of acres of watersheds, fragmented forests, and used "cut and run" techniques, caring little about workers and their communities. Then the logging industry spent millions of dollars building the public perception that Spotted Owls and environmentalists were trying to destroy the livelihoods of workers. As a result, even broaching the subject of logging in our local high school is seen as sympathy to environmental zealots rather than a logical step in reaching sustainable forestry techniques. The New York Times recently exposed the American Petroleum Institute for trying to create "junk science" curricula to downplay global warming and discredit the Kyoto Protocol. The Institute - along with the American Coal Foundation and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers - helped fund a module on energy for Project Learning Tree, an educational program funded by the American Forest Foundation. Learning Tree teaches that "managed tree farms" are forests. Children learn timber jargon, such as board feet, cruising timber, and silviculture. It leans heavily toward the utilitarian approach, as if forests are nothing more than fiber farms. When Learning Tree is challenged to explain their glaring omissions, they state that concepts such as fragmentation or dangers of herbicides may be too intense for children to learn. In the K-8 module, terms like clear cutting or monoculture are rarely mentioned. How can that be? When its funders are the most notorious clearcutters on earth (Sierra Pacific, Weyerhaeuser and Pacific Lumber) it's not hard to come up with the answer. While there are some good ecological activities, the slickness of the materials and their sheer volume (the K-8 module is more than 400 pages long) can lead teachers to believe that this is the end all to forest education. Here's where large sums of cash (from the very deep pockets of the timber multinationals) have crafted an illusion too good to be true. Unfortunately, since environmental organizations haven't provided much sound curricula, teachers are being bamboozled into using Learning Tree materials. Growing state budget deficits mean less funding for curricula and more temptations for educators to use corporate curricula that offer a fast-food approach to learning. And this serves corporate America very well: As long as students have literacy in environmental issues, there will always be people like Rachel Carson and César Chavez. The time is ripe for ecological science to be mandated before high school graduation. This generation of students faces tough ecological challenges, and we can teach them to be ecologically fluent. Young citizens should be capable of comprehending the laws of nature, the organization and limitations of ecosytems, how climate governs natural communities, and the rules of energy that dictate the fate of planet earth. Armed with this knowledge, they can analyze climate change, the accelerated rate of extinction, and the limitations to consumption. If they're ecologically literate, they can challenge economic pretexts that often ignore the true cost of energy extraction or fail to calculate the environmental degradation into our GNP. And maybe most importantly, ecological themes can make other subjects more relevant and exciting. Team teach Silent Spring (Rachel Carson's classic on the dangers of overusing pesticides) in English class with a chemistry teacher. Have a civics teacher explain the process by which the Endangered Species Act became law. Have the ecology and economics teacher set up a debate on the pros and cons of extracting oil from the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, while addressing alternatives like wind and geothermal energy. Ecological science establishes a connection between students' lives and the natural world. It gives kids a sense of worth when they bring in life experiences that translate into knowledge about nature. Students quickly recognize that complex issues demand a basic level of competency in science, and that opinions quickly crash if they are built on misinformation. Ecological science demands that students "know the data" and then they have the ability to analyze and dissect the information. Discussion and critical thinking, even in the face of corporate come-ons, will determine the best possible road to sustaining resources for eons to come. John F. Borowski (jenjill@proaxis.com) is a marine and environmental science teacher in Philomath, Ore. Fall 2002 The Ghettoman told me and STREET PROPHETS that to watch out for LIES from other people when they give out sources. For you will accept it and call it TRUTH. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 476 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
So Danny, what you meant to say is that your info was wrong and that you changed your opinion about corporations getting involved in schools? Am I clear on this point? Plain English, Danny, plain English. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4860 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.85.147.122 |
Detroitteacher, The Ghettoman made me change my viewpoint about corporations in the public schools. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2882 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.211.213 |
This is a great discussion. Being former teacher - for two years, $200 a month and housing - I hear a lot misunderstanding about what teachers do and the nature of their job. Should any ever be honored to work in that profession, and I hope you do, the first thing you will discover that your first task is as baby-sitter to 30 and often more kids. Before any teaching gets done, you must corral that herd of cats, get them to a degree of attentiveness and then maintain that. This achieved through a combination of cajoling and veiled threats, but in the end it is achieved by the respect you earn. The emotional and physical strain of that, even in an orderly class, is immense and quickly weeds out the weak. Children reach out to you like a parent even when in defiance and the drain of that emotion on you is intense. If you have a short fuse, like some on this forum, you will probably leave in a straightjacket or handcuffs. In old urban America that task is vastly complicated by the home environments of the babies who you sit. 70% will be from single parent homes, most living at poverty levels, most growing up amid violence and crime with limited supervision and many with disabilities. Class clowns and troublemakers can be handled in ones and twos, but if there is enough they will break the learning environment. Folks, this is not easy work and that is all before class starts. Think back on your school days. Remember those teachers who made a difference in your life. I know you can name them instantly. And why does every one dread a strike? Because, who is going to do the babysitting until it is settled. Oh, but let's talk about how it will disrupt the kids education instead. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1077 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Well said Lowell. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 477 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Lowell, I couldn't agree more. Well said. I dread a strike mainly because I am anxious to get back to work (not to mention no money coming in for bills). I guess I dread a strike for many different reasons than most folks. I am constantly playing mother to teens (not that I mind) but it is draining on the psyche. I feel the kids in my classes can sometimes be closer to me than their own parents (which is sad). It's teachers they turn to when they need money for bus fare or a hot meal or just some advice regarding life. I tend to get classes FULL of troublemakers because I am known as the teacher who can reach those kids with my unconventional teaching methods. Just getting them to settle down takes a good 10 minutes (each class period). That is 10 minutes of instruction time I don't have. Tack on a few more minutes to deal with the home issues (no pen, paper, etc). A few more minutes to distribute books (I don't have enough for each kid to take home) Much of the class period is wasted doing things that people don't realize teachers do. I come home exhausted and must still grade papers, do lesson plans, think of a new way to get Johnnie to understand the lesson, do MY homework, cook dinner, pick up my house, attend class, spend time with MY child, pay bills, grocery shop, read whatever I have to read to refresh myself for tomorrow's classes (I have three different levels of classes to teach...so multiply lesson plans and all the daily prep times 3), attend and volunteer to chaperone extra curriculars to show support to my students, tutor Johnnie after school because he's fallen behind (ok, so it's 10 Johnnies). I am probably fogetting some of the things I do on a daily basis that is added on to an already hectic day. I'm not complaining, this is the profession I chose and that I love. I just wish more folks would really understand all that teachers do. Teaching is not like a corporate job where people leave their work at the office and go home to go about their lives. OH, I also forgot worrying about the little cherubs who are in not so great living situations. That takes alot out of a person, too. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1078 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Since we have been touching on the subject of charter schools, here's an interesting study just released. http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCAT ION/08/22/charter.schools.ap/i ndex.html | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1868 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
Detroitteacher, You forgot the job of playing amateur doctor/psychologist. Can't tell you the number of people I know who've said a teacher pinpointed the issue that helped their doctor/psychologist figure out what was going on. I wear glasses because one of my elementary teachers said I show all the classic signs of someone who's having trouble seeing the chalkboard. My brother-in-law was diagnosed with a learning disability as the result of a middle school teacher saying he might have one. After seeing a psychologist it was a relief to him and his parents to figure out what the source of the behavioral problems was as well as how to create appropriate and effective behavior modification plans to deal with it. He went from nearly failing to an A/B student in one school year. He may have become a high school drop out if it wasn't for that teacher. I know of other teachers who have helped diagnose kids as having lead poisoning, allergies to certain food products, etc. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 479 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Yes, I did forget that hat. I keep a ready supply of Bandaids and a first aid kit because, everyday, someone has an "accident" and I am the one who patches them up (we have a nurse but the kids think she is Nurse Cratchet). I've helped many parents see the light when it comes to learning disabilites. Not that I am an expert but I can tell them what I see in the classroom. A few of my students have received the extra help they need because I have mentioned things to parents or other teachers. One of my students was slightly autistic and no one had a clue. Since this is the field I want to go into (eventually), I knew the signs. This was a high school sophomore and, up to that point, everyone just thought the kid was "stupid" (his parents words). On the contrary, the kid was very bright in certain areas, he just had some quirks that prevented him from doing certain things. He could read beautifully. He understood zero of what he read. He was also very patternistic. Everything had to be done in order. Anyway, I digress. The young man is now on his way to being a broadcast announcer on radio(as I said, he can read beautifully). That is what his dream is and he is working toward that dream. I am not a miracle worker, nor am I some demi-god who can solve the world's problems in education. I am just a person who cares for her students and will stop at nothing to help them. I don't agree with the strike but if it gets something accomplished (smaller classes, books, supplies)for my students, then so be it. I'm not in this for the money or the vacations (because I really don't get any with all the prep work I have to do for the coming year). I am in this because it's what I was meant to do. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4862 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.166.19 |
When teachers strike in the name of solidarity the students lose. Oh Well! that's free eduction in America. 230 years ago when free education was starting. A teacher would get a schoolhouse, a home, family treatments and pay. Now today when the schoolhouse is just a memory from Laura Ingalls Wilder's "LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRARIE". More teachers demand solidarity within their contracts with the board before they teach the students anything. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 480 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Danny, how is a schoolhouse, a home (I WISH I got a home with my job), family treatment (I assume you mean the student's families welcomed the teacher because many teachers back then lived with student families...both my grandmother and great aunt were teachers and did this), and pay. Is this not what today's teachers are asking for? Your post is contradictory. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4863 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.166.19 |
Detroitteacher, If you have seen the FOX show "BOSTON PUBLIC" in which is not on the air anymore. There you will see lots of fictional teachers getting pushed, beat up, yelling racial slurs at the students and getting shot at. But they have to prepare to defend themselves while they teach the students culturally biased history. Today the " GOLDEN RULE" is long gone. Now its " EVERY TEACHER AND STUDENT FOR THEMSELVES". | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 482 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Danny, what the HELL are you talking about? Boston Public was NOT reality (neither is Boston Legal...do you believe everything you see on TV??) ! It was fictional. Some hollywood people dreamed that up. If you would have said Dangerous Minds, your arguement would have been more convincing. That movie was more realistic. Your last post makes zero sense. Teachers getting beat up and shot at yet still teaching. Danny, if I was beat up or shot at, I'd get the heck out of the profession because staying would get me killed. Anyone would do the same thing. Your ideas have nothing to do with the thread. It's not every teacher and kid for themselves. Why in the heck do you think we are fighting so hard? For us? Hell no. If I wanted better pay and less stress, I'd switch professions. I would, however, like the mismanagement of funds to stop so that we can better use those FOR education and not some stupid party at a hotel for administrators and teachers (it was on the news and it was true), how about DPS paying for cell phones for those in the Ivory Tower? How about new office furniture for the CEO, one table cost a few grand, (while my kids sit on windowsills)? THAT is what we are beefing about. It is all about the kids, in the long run. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4864 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.166.19 |
Detroitteacher, Do you know something about a schoolhouse? A house, one room fill with a average compacity of 20 students from grade 1 to 6. with a room and board and, pay and family treatment in their home. In a Amish country, their are still one room schoolhouses in existance. But in Wisconsin Supreme Court, Yoder vs. the Board if Ed. ruled that all Amish kids MUST send their kids to regular ed. if they wanted too..,As long as cultural biased education does not interfere with the Amish way of life. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 483 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Oh, and not once have I heard a teacher use any type of racially charged language at a kid. I have, however, heard kids call teachers everything but their name. We are expected to just brush it off and continue on. We do just that. If we don't, we are fired (yes, that is an offense that one can be fired over) or we go insane. Teachers take alot of abuse and still continue on. I'd like to know exactly what you do for a living, Danny. Doubt you'd feel the same way and preach your CRAP if you came to work with me and see what I do for just a few days. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4865 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.166.19 |
Detroitteacher, I heard about this debauchery of you being abused to grown kids. Other teachers in most public schools in America felt the same way. If a teacher felt abused in any way. They should escort the student out to hallways and have a complaint in writing. All teachers MUST stand up against this abuse or face it with fear everyday. I have seen it a long time ago when I was in Detroit Public Schools in elemetary and High School. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4866 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.166.19 |
Detroitteacher, What hollywood did to make seen reality with the public school system was the preview from reality. Hollywood can play make-believe, but the teacher/student debacle happens in real life. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 484 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Danny, very rarely are teachers abused. We can usually handle things in our classrooms. Are you saying we abuse kids? Sometimes there is no escorting a kid anywhere. We don't lay hands on kids and if you have ever tried to move a 130+ pound kid without touching them if they don't want to go, it isn't happening. As a matter of fact, we aren't allowed to put kids INTO the hallways for any reason. What happened a long time ago when you were in school isn't what's happening now. Like I said, come in and sit in my classes for a few days and do what I do on a regular basis (just the day to day stuff). You aren't really addressing the issue on this thread. Quote: I heard about this debauchery of you being abused to grown kids. I really don't understand what you are trying to convey. You contradict yourself when the going gets tough. You slam teachers in one post and then say we should fight back in another. Which is it? | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1099 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
Don't waste your time fighting with Danny... he's "special needs" | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4867 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.166.19 |
Detroitteacher, In Some Detroit public school buildings, and maybe NOT your DPS school buildings. Some teachers DO escort a troubled student out in the hallways and write a complaint about that student. Maybe the DPS school that are you teaching have their own code of conduct of how to maintian a safe a secure school. Maybe YOU or other teachers don't escort the child in the hallways. But I do know that you would do something to that student if he ot she disrupts the class. Or you rather just go on teaching that student do the class clowing. My editorial doesn't have to be right nor wrong. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 485 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I'm merely doing the same thing to Danny that I do with my at risk kids. I am trying to get him to clarify a statement, support his opinions and stick to an opinion instead of contradicting himself all the time. I'm also interested to know what Danny thinks and not what the Ghettoman thinks. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 486 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
If I escorted disruptive kids to the hallways that would eat up the entire hour. I deal with the kid directly and usually don't have many issues. There are already too many issues to deal with without having to stop everything, leave my class unattended and escort Boo-Boo the Fool to the office. I didn't say you are right or wrong, I just want some clarification so I know what the heck you are talking about. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1873 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.79 |
Detroitteacher, I'm starting to question your intelligence here. Just let Danny be Danny. That's his job on the forum, to add some non-sense postings and lighten things up from time to time. Kind of like that special needs person every church has that's always interupting the service or the pastor's sermon. Keeps you humble as well as focused on the big picture of things. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 490 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Gotcha...no need to question my intelligence  | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 497 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Here is a list of contract proposals set forth by the Detroit Federation of Teachers. I don't think teacher demands are unreasonable (we can do without one or two of these but overall it seems fair). The district wants us to take a pay cut of 18-20%, reduction in health benefits, etc. Any other opinions? http://www.dft231.com/contract proposals.htm | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1482 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 75.10.9.42 |
I see a strike is starting. I feel sorry for the kids who once again are put in another dire situation and that continues to erode their education and confidence. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 529 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
For all the latest news, see the DFT website. On that site is a letter from the AFT supporting DPS teachers. http://www.dft231.com/new_page_1.htm Unfortunately, they called for the mass meeting to be on a Sunday...many people, such as myself, had previous engagements. I hope we don't strike! I've already had many emails from students asking me about it. If we do stike, though, be sure that what we are striking about is the kids. Without adequate classroom materials and the ability to retain and attract QUALITY teachers, the kids lose out. (Message edited by detroitteacher on August 27, 2006) | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 266 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 68.62.6.138 |
Do teachers in Michigan still get fined for each day into the school year that they strike? I remember that being the case when I was in school, which pretty much rendered the teacher's union powerless | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1084 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Yes, the teachers do get fined for each day they strike, but by law they have to have a hearing for each teacher, which would be a huge cost for the government and school district, so we'll see what happens. | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 16 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Detroitteacher- I really understand where you are coming from with this but teacher strikes have always been about more money,better benefits etc. The smaller classrooms and other items that directly affect students if put on the negotiating table is taken off after everything is said and done. My problem with this is that many of the high tenured, highest paid teachers are also some of the worst teachers in the district whereas many of the newer teachers are some of the better ones. As a taxpayer I rather see the increase go to those lower teachers on the totem pole to get them up to market rate and retain them. Bottom line is there is no accountablity within the union structure. I would love to have the ability to reward teachers such as yourself with increases,but by the same token I sure don't want to give increases to the teachers going thru the motions. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 530 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Firstandten: Thanks for the words of support for we youngins. Considering the dire news of a strike, please pray that this goes by quickly and the kids are back at school on Sept 5. One of the school board folks even said that he saw where we were coming from and we pretty much had no choice. If teachers are given what is due them (I'm not talking about the crappy teachers, the only thing due them is a good firing) then the classrooms will be better places. Teachers are ticked because the district borrowed money from us and then turned around and gave the Principals a raise last year. If the district is crying broke then they should not be giving folk raises while taking money from others. The teachers are also mad because the district has been mismanaging funds for YEARS and now we are paying for that. My opinion, take a look at Lonnie Bates' records while he was on the board and see who he was paying and for what. Bet they find a bit of cash if they do that. Even though I don't agree with striking, I will be on the picket line for a little while tomorrow just to put in my appearance. Hopefully, a solution will be agreed upon soon. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 531 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
The way striking has gone in the past for DPS is that we have to go longer into next summer and we don't get paid for that time. DPS has informed us that, even if we did not strike, we would not be getting our first paychecks as planned on Sept 5th. I opt for year round pay so there should NOT have been any interruption in my checks...but that isn't how DPS says it is going to be. I'd be working 2 weeks for free either way it's sliced. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 349 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.181.41 |
Detroitteacher, I am so sorry. And I offer my solidarity. Nobody does this easily - it's incredibly difficult. I'll see you Labor Day at the front of the march. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 532 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Thanks for the words of support Oldredfordette. It's discouraging, to say the least, to have to inform my students of this info. They've been emailing me in droves. Many have said they will come to march with us in support. Now I really need a sugar daddy (we must keep our humour going here). (Message edited by detroitteacher on August 27, 2006) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2385 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.29.74 |
Can't help you there, DT, but thanks for your attempts at educating the know-it-alls who think that teachers work 6 hours a day, lesson plans are thought up on the drive to work, papers are graded by elves in the basement, credentials are ordered from the back of comic books, and the summer is when teachers can be found jet-setting around Ibiza and the French Riviera, partying with supermodels. I've taught part time as an adjunct, worked as a sub in LA and taught English to execs in Mexico. If all goes well, I will resume working on a teaching cert in Jan...Perhaps one day I will finish all of those endless ed classes. I wish you and all the other Detroit teachers lots of luck. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 351 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.181.41 |
Are you assigned a picket or will DPS HQ be a picket target? | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2143 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Detroitteacher, please stop with your propaganda this strike has nothing to do about educating the children of Detroit. If the teachers were worried about the children they wouldn’t strike. This strike has to do with getting a raise in pay whether the money is there or not. How is it that giving a teacher a raise puts more money in the classroom? Sounds like more money in your pocket to me. Now if it truly is about the children and paying teachers more means a better education for them I ask. Does that mean teachers are half assing it because they don’t think they are being paid enough? Does a shitty teacher automatically become a good teacher with a pay raise? It is nice to know that if teachers get a raise they will work harder. I have no problem with teachers wanting a raise but don’t try to sell it as it is about teaching Detroit’s youths. Simply state that “you want more pay” because only the simpletons on this website will actually believe that it is about education. It amazes me that folks go into a profession knowing what it pays then go to work for one of the poorest district in the state then wonder why there is no money to give raises. I cannot wait until the teachers start crying about the layoff that will be coming the second half of the school year. Remember if you strike parents are going to send their kids to other districts or schools which means even less money for the district. Which in the end means less students then anticipated and layoffs during the school year. Remember there is only so much money the district has it doesn’t grow on trees. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 534 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
We are all picketing outside of our individual schools. I'll be at Cooley... Thanks for the support Barn...it really does help. Where can I order up some of those elves to live in my basement and grade papers? Are they on the same page as the ad for teacher cert in the back of the comic books?? Keep plugging away at that teacher cert and all those classes. It really is a rewarding profession (most of the time). The kids need great teachers and we are getting to be a dying breed (great teachers, the old ones will never leave and continue to muck things up). | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 43 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
Why do these teacher unions want to keep destroying the education needs of the DPS children? For what over a 5% raise? They don't deserve a 5% raise. If anything, a 5% decrease in salary might get them motivated to the point where their kids actually start learning. I didn't know a raise was warranted for passing a child who could barely read. This is just another example of why parents don't want to send their kids to DPS. Teachers care more about making money then teaching the children. | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 44 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
Does anyone know if parents have ever sued a teachers union/individual teachers for intentionally depriving their children of their right to an education? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4901 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
NOW DPS TEACHERS, STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE!!! SOLIDARITY FOREVER! VICTORY AT LAST! THIS IS WAR THAT WE WILL WIN. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3685 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
Obviously, some on this forum have missed or ignored Detroitteacher's very salient points. There seems to be faction on this board who seem to think that being paid a wage that allows more than gruel and water, let alone gas and electric in their homes is unreasonable. I applaud Detroitteacher and her passion for her profession. Is it too much to grant a livable wage to teach the next generation? I see much bitching about other nations scoring higher in the education of their youth. Get what you pay for? | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2144 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Jams are you saying that the Detroit's teacher suck and are not working very hard? | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2145 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Jams what teachers make is a livable wage where the hell do you live that 70,000k is not livable. Hell if all the teachers moved to Detroit they would be some of the richest people in the city of Detroit. Jams I think the poverty level is about 19,000k. So most teachers that are starting off make twice that amount and the ones that have been there awhile make over three times that amount. So your statement that they are living on gruel and water makes you look very ignorant. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3686 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
Merchantgander, By no means. Would you spend the time and energy that people like Detroitteacher expend for the money and respect she receives? Hell, being able to sell soap ads brings a person millions of dollars and respectability, yet, the most important of products, the minds and ambitions of the next generation should be left to the lowest paid and least respected. Think about it for a minute, was there not a teacher in your past who had a huge impact in your life and led you to where you are in your life now? What is that worth? | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1483 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Nothing if there is no school. No matter how much they think the board and district has wasted money, there still is no money. Instead of hurting the kids with this strike why not go after the board and its mismanagement. Instead they demand 15% raises to bring their salaries within the top 10% of the Wayne, Oakland and Macomb County. Problem is on average their district recieves almost 3 grand less per student due to an eroding tax base. (per TV News) | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2146 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
No _____________ Jams not debating whether teachers play an important role in society. I responded to the stupidity of your post that teachers don't make a livable wage and if you paid them more they would perform better. _________________________ Lets be realistic, most people in America want to make more money. Most people in America think they are underpaid. There is no proof that paying these teachers more will improve their performance or make them better teachers. If you give them a raise they will still be bitching that they don't make enough money or that they should be paid more. If teachers had any confidence in there ability to teach children they wouldn't be scared to death of pay for performance. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3687 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
So shall we replace teachers with a volunteer force similar to fireman in rural townships? | ||
Paulc Member Username: Paulc Post Number: 79 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 159.53.46.143 |
Detroitteacher - although I applaud your great efforts and profession, and understand what your job fully entails (mother and step-mother are both teachers)- as well as being pro-union, I think _sj_ just said it best... We are seeing far too often these days, the unions becoming the "scapegoat," when they pull the trigger to strike at a time in which the parent company / organization, etc. should instead be held accountable in the public's eye. It is simply playing into their hands. Look at Delphi, Northwest, etc. - the public perception becomes..."look at these greedy union employees who want more, when the company is suffering..." instead of "look at -insert comany here-'s inability to effectively manage their finances, etc." As teachers, you should use your great craft to educate the public - in this case of the mismanagement of the school system. It is all perception. Just my two pennies. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2147 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Jams stop acting like teachers make the same amount of someone working at a fast food restaurant. Obviously you agree with everything I am saying but your pro-union mentality just won’t let you say it. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3688 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
Please reread my specific words. I'm not a teacher nor do I have children, but I realize the most important thing our society should offer is education to the next generation. Yes, 70grand is a livable wage, yet, you seem to think that is outrageous for the services performed. I disagree. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 352 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.181.41 |
Come on Jams. We want the cheapest teachers for the least amount of money we can get away with paying them. And if they don't lay down and take it, we will paint them as radicals who are trying to bankrupt hard-working taxpayers! We know you agree ADMIT IT ADMIT IT! Fuck those kids and the professionals trying to "teach" them. They'd probably teach them "science" and stuff anyway. | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 45 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
Have they earned a raise? If so, based on what guidelines? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1319 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
So what will these overpaid teachers do when many of them become fired midway through the year when the funds just aren't there? The tax money will have been all spent by then. The shortfall now is projected to be $189 million this year alone. DPS once had some 260 thousand students and not the 106 thousand or so today (and dropping by some ten thousand annually as of late). How many more years can DPS go on spending its outrageous outlays while "educating" around 40% of the numbers of students it formerly budgeted for (and still bases much of its outlays on "phantom," imaginary students)? Fire many of the teachers now if they don't want to work here. Maybe, for once, they'll see just how economically devastated Detroit and some of the burbs are becoming. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3689 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
BLAME TEACHERS, EXCUSE STUPIDITY | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2148 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Help me out where did I say teachers wages were outragoues. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3690 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
What do you think is appropriate compensation for the job they do or should do? I personally think Detroitteacher and her type is worth more than her weight in platinum. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4907 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
SOLIDARITY FOREVER!!! SOLIDARITY FOREVER!!! SOLIDARITY FOREVER!!! OUR UNION MARCHES ON!! | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1484 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Maybe, but as I have had this discussion with many a union worker. Where does the money come from? The district does not have the money for 15% raises over the life of the contract. Have the teachers who were hired before '92 pay 10% of their health care just like all the other teachers hired after '92. Now we have some more money to talk about wages. Now it would be a different story if the district were showing surpluses but as we all know this is one of the poorest run districts in the country. (Message edited by _sj_ on August 28, 2006) | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2149 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
It amazes me how many people on this site cannot think intelligently. Everyone please get out of your pro-union and anti-union box for once and think on your own. Lets do a question and answer segment to help all of you out. Does DPS management waste money? I have never gone in and performed an audit of DSP but I’m going to say “yes” Can DPS management control all outside factors that play a large role in there expenses? No, DPS management has no control over the outrageous cost of their healthcare and there pension obligation. (For folks that always want to blame management for a companies failing there are a ton a factors that can affect a bottom line that they have no control over. If you are not smart enough to understand this point there is no hope for you.)The only control they have when cost spiral out of control is to charge employees more or cut costs. Will teacher perform better if they receive a raise? No, unless they are half assing it and don’t think they are earning enough to work hard. My guess is there is not one person that said paying teachers more will improve performance would agree with the above statement. My best guess is that good teachers will continue to be good and bad teachers will continue to be bad even if raises are issued. Do teachers earn too much money? I say no but each individual person will have an opinion of what they think a teacher is worth. If you think teachers are underpaid and deserve a raise where does the money come from? I cannot answer this question and no else advocating raises can answer this question. Trust me just because you think it is the right thing to do doesn’t mean the money will be there. There is only so much money to spend there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Some words of advice for everyone. We live in a great country that allows us to make certain decisions in life. One decision we are allowed to make is what profession you want to go into (I know sometimes there aren’t any jobs in that profession but shit happens.). Every teacher out there decided to become a teacher knowing full well what the pay was and what their job required. If you don’t like the situation you are in leave the district or the profession. What do I think a teacher should be paid? What the market will allow and what a district can afford. (Message edited by Merchantgander on August 28, 2006) | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3691 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- quote: Think about it for a minute, was there not a teacher in your past who had a huge impact in your life and led you to where you are in your life now? ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- No _____________ Your one word reply has haunted me and saddens me. My teachers always encouraged me to step up to the next level on the learning process. They left me with a curiosity about the world I live in and a search for answers that lead to more questions. For that, I'll always appreciate them. There is no dollar value, I can apply. Edit for typo. (Message edited by JamS on August 28, 2006) | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 354 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.181.41 |
See Jams? It's the teachers fault! Read Detroitteachers posts, it's obvious she hates her students and wastes their time and our money. Get out of your anti union box Merchantgander. There is no worker you think is worth their wage, there is no CEO you don't defend. What the market will allow my ass. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3692 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
Oldredfordette BRAVO, (applause, applause)!!! | ||
Nanska Member Username: Nanska Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 84.146.229.35 |
What will it take for the State of MI to take over the City of Detroit School District? The DPS schools have been bad for decades, I know, grew up in the Dexter/Davidson area and things were so bad at the local school back then, that my family scrimped and sent me, and all of my cousins to parochial schools. I do not know if the State would do a better job managing the schools, but the DPS has had the job, and did a lousy job for way too long. And the real victims ( continuuing ) are the students who have to go to these substandard schools. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3694 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
We tried that. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 67.38.81.149 |
Um...didnt the state already do that? I dont think that worked out too well. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4908 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.84.105 |
The State did take over the DPS since 1999. Since then the state will only give DPS the grants and funding to run the entire school year. | ||
Nanska Member Username: Nanska Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 84.146.229.35 |
Really? Must have missed that news. Have been out of the school system for long time. But something HAS to be done. The poor performing school system, along with so many other things, is a major problem in getting families to move into/back to the City. And as far as the teachers being overpaid at 70K a year, I don't think they are. Not with the tough job they have to do. That is not the starting salary is it? I do not think that salary is the most imp. issue. The lack of supplies, the crumbling school bldgs., the increase in student/teacher assaults, etc., and most imp. the continuuing mismanagement by the DPS School Board. Those are the issues that need to be addressed and solved. Just do not see these issues being resolved in the DPS schools. Ever. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 536 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Quote: where the hell do you live that 70,000k is not livable. I DO NOT MAKE ANYWHERE NEAR 70 GRAND A YEAR!! They don't want us to take a paycut from LAST year's wages, hell, we haven't had a raise in 4 years! They want us to take a paycut from the wages of 2001! I just need to make a decent living. Keep in mind, I pay out of pocket for classes so that I can keep doing what I love. The media tells the public what they want. If you have questions, just ask me. Maybe if the district paid for books, supplies, general day to day stuff, then I wouldn't bitch about my pay. Unfortunately, they don't pay for much of anything (I have to make copies at Kinkos and pay for them out of pocket). I purchase supplies for my class. What other corporation makes its employees do that?? I love my kids, I love my job but I also need to feed my own kid and put a roof over my head. Many great teachers will leave Detroit because we just can't pay our bills. Sad! I tried to call DTE and tell them that my wage hasn't gone up (not to mention my employer BORROWED money from me last year) and could they please lower my bill to reflect what I would have paid in 2001 (which is where my wages stopped). They laughed. If you are critical of teachers and why we are doing what we are doing, I plead with you to cross our picket line and go teach the kids in the conditions in which we must teach. You wouldn't last 2 days. The CEO says kids will be in the class on Sept 5. Go teach them. I'm sure they won't turn away volunteers. Oh yeah, you must pay for your background check and fingerprinting yourself. The district doesn't do that for you. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3695 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.23.116 |
Keep it the public eye until it is resolved. We are talking about a generation who will take their place in society. Shall we just concern ourselves about the "price"? Or is education of our youth something we reserve for the "elite"? | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 537 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Oh yeah! The state did take over until last school year. Situation wasn't much different when they were in control. Still mismanagement of money, no supplies, no back up for teachers in cases of violent students, no books, no chairs, leaky roofs...etc. I challenge anyone who thinks they can do better than the job I do to please go do it. I am all for getting the crappy overpaid, do nothing teachers the heck out of there...but then you have teachers like me who bust our collective asses for our kids and get screwed. I just want what I rightly deserve...4 years of a salary bump (it was promised and I worked for it already), the money DPS OWES me (because they borrowed it). You don't borrow money from employees and then tell them not only are they NOT getting that money back but their pay will decrease this year, too. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4911 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.84.105 |
Detroitteacher, That was so sad that you and the rest of the Detroit Public School teachers have to pay out of their own pockets to buy school surplies. DPS is now going back to the 1850s old schoolhouse era. Their leaders in the school board don't give a HOOT about the Detroit Public School Teachers and their children's future. Even the parent(s) had it up to here with this debacle. Some of them may even think about sending their child to suburban schools or those EVIL charter schools. Dr. Coleman and school board have the grant money, they just don't want to pay it. For this is the Capitalist society, where GREED is the law and our leaders don't care about you and your earnings, they only car what's good for society. | ||
65memories Member Username: 65memories Post Number: 283 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.50 |
in fact, Detroit teacher, things deteriorated during State control. Buildings are in terrible condition due to the State's indifference. The was much fiscal mismanagement during Burnley's reign. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 538 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Yes, that is what I was trying to say. I wasn't there long enough before state takeover to really know much of the conditions. I started in 97 so was only there a year prior to the takeover. When I first started, things were a mess and got progressively worse as time went on. Teachers aren't only fighting for our pay. We also want reasonable class sizes (60 kids is too many when I have enough space in my classroom for 30). We also want safe buildings, no more leaky roofs, etc. This really is about the kids (at least for me and those like me who do our jobs and do them well). | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2150 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Oldfordette, I know you are not the smartest person in the world but please point out where I blamed the teachers, where I said the CEO wasn’t at fault, and where I said Detroitteacher hated her students. You won’t be able too because I never said it. Please re-read all my post this has nothing to do with unions. Unlike you I actually evaluate each situation independently. The DPS is broken and needs to be blown up. The DPS can be summed up pretty easily to many bad management decisions, bad teachers and bad parents. Oldy you need to get out of the house and join the real world one of these days. It is not all cotton candy and rainbows. Now for the last time people should make what the market will allow them to make (no judgment on if it is to much or not enough). I don’t care what people make. Unlike you I could careless if people make more or less then me. Oldy please tell me where the money is going to come from and please remember there is no smart arm out there to pay the teachers. DT, I ask you where is the money going to come from? Who are you going to let go so teachers can get a raise? What programs are you willing to cancel? DPS has to work with a balance budget there is no magic credit card to swipe. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 539 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Coleman refuses to allow an auditor to come in and look at the books, so we assume he has something to hide. They have the rainy day fund (in the tens of millions). I call this one damned rainy day. He also says kids will be in school on time, with or without teachers. Administrators will be in the classrooms. If he has that many admins then he has too many! | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2151 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
DT, I don’t know if you are a good or bad teacher. I don’t know whether you care or don’t care about your kids. Unfortunately that doesn’t matter this is strictly economics. You keep telling everyone to try to do your job. I didn’t want to be a teacher that is why I am not one. No one held a gun to your head and said you have to be a teacher and you have to work for DPS. If it sucks quit and find a new job. Why do a job that makes you miserable? If other district s are so much better why not go work for them? | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2152 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
See DT that wasn't to hard fire Admin staff, spend the rainy day fund and find the money hidden under Coleman pillow. Which admin staff are you willing to fire? Hopfully the people you put on the streets won't have to feed their kids. You should go work on the admin side. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 540 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I'm talking about the admin downtown. Why isn't my kid just as important as theirs? I still have to feed him. I make roughly 100 grand a year less than the admin downtown. How about we cut their salaries to make ends meet? The district already borrowed money from teachers...and now they are saying we won't get that money back. The district won't make cuts where it doesn't hurt folks salaries and benefits, although our union has suggested ways to do just that. I'd be willing to stay at my CURRENT payrate if the district will pick up the tab and fix the copiers, purchase books and supplies that I am responsible for buying because they don't. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 489 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138 |
Coleman = Joke Garrison = Joke Granholm = Joke Detroit Delegation = Joke Kilpatrick = Joke Bully-Cummings = Joke Legal action/intervention is Detroit's only hope. Bring in the Department of Justice and a court appointed federal monitor to right this shit - I mean ship - naw, I mean shit! | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 357 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.181.41 |
So when everybody is arrested or federal marshalled, then what? | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 541 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Economics?? How is this for economics...DPS borrowed money from teachers last year (a week's pay per teacher) and then turned around and gave the Principals a 10 percent raise! THAT is worth being pissed about. If you cry poor and broke, act poor and broke! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 542 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Funny thing, Oldredfordette...the cops came by today (in fact, they were cruising by all day). They stopped to talk to us and we jokingly asked us when they were going to arrest us. They said they'd refuse because they are in the same boat as the teachers. Now THAT is solidarity!! Thanks to everyone who is supporting (not necessarily agreeing with) DPS teachers!! | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 490 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138 |
Here's more economics: Based on the Detroit Free Press report in yesterday's paper, there were 103 DPS schools that did not make AYP. Each of the 103 schools that FAILED to make AYP has a principal that received a 10% raise. On average, an elementary school principal receives approx. $75,000 plus is annual salary, middle school approx. $90,000, and high school approx. $100,000 plus. Automatically add 10% to each principal's salary x 103 schools. Each of the 103 schools on average enrolled approx. 500 students in grades that determined the school's AYP status. Because AYP is determined using averages, let's assume that 300 students per school scored below passing levels. 103 x 300 = 30,900 students' Reading and Math skills are below expected grade levels. More specifically, let's look at DPS high schools that failed to make AYP. I counted at least 30 of them that FAILED to make AYP. AYP high school scores are based on 11th graders Reading and Math performance. Let's assume there are approx. 150 11th graders in each of the 30 DPS high school's that FAILED to make AYP. Of this number, only 10% score proficiently in Reading and Math. 30 x 135 = 4,050 students current 06-07 seniors are not proficient. And so on and so on .... And everyone wants a damn raise. Bring in DOJ! | ||
Opus Member Username: Opus Post Number: 24 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 72.241.34.10 |
For those that are not in the education profession, AYP is a system that measures progress made by a school. The problem is that it is a segregated system. It measures progress seperately for each race, special needs category, etc... Soooo if there are 10 white chilren in a school of 500, and these 10 white kids never show up and don't achieve, the whole school does not make AYP. It does not matter that everyone else is doing fine, if one subgroup does not meet AYP, then the school does not make it. Seems fair doesn't it!! AYP is one of the worst parts of No Child Left Behind. The other great part about AYP is that it goes up every year. So in theory, if a school has 99% of their children passing, the next year, they are required to have 100%. If they do not make 100% they fail to make AYP. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 543 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Morena, you forgot to add in there the Assistant Principals who also got a 10 percent raise! High schools have 3+ each. Not sure about middle and elementary. Opus, your facts are correct. Many schools do not make AYP simply because a few kids don't show up. A school does not make AYP unless they have 95 percent of their kids taking the test. That number that 95% is taken from is from the 4th Friday count. Many kids leave the school prior to testing but after 4th Friday. It's not a peachy system, to say the least and there are many flaws. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 2154 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.91.250.131 |
DT, I am not against Admin being let go or forcing them take pay reduction. I am for whatever it takes to get the job done with a balanced budget. I applude the fact you are willing to "stay at my CURRENT payrate if the district will pick up the tab and fix the copiers, purchase books and supplies that I am responsible for buying because they don't." but unfortunately you are probably in the minority. As for as the police arresting you, this has nothing to do with solidarity and more to do with the DPD regularly not arresting people. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 491 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 216.45.2.138 |
Quote: "... Soooo if there are 10 white children in a school of 500, and these 10 white kids never show up and don't achieve, the whole school does not make AYP." Not true. 30 students or more determines a sub-category, not 10. Also, black students account for 90% of the DPS student population and in most cases, account for 99% of a school's population. Quote: "AYP is one of the worst parts of No Child Left Behind." Prior to 2002, there was no accountability system in place. AYP creates accountability. Quote: "So in theory, if a school has 99% of their children passing, the next eyar, they are required to have 100%. If they don't make 100%, they fail to make AYP." Not true. Without getting into more specifics on AYP, let's just say that any school demonstrating 99% proficiency rates in Reading and Math are doing outstanding and all the staff should get bonuses/raises! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 544 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
My students are the kids who earn the scholarship for the MEAP. That should keep me at my current rate of pay...if test scores are an indication of what teachers are worth. | ||
Opus Member Username: Opus Post Number: 25 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 72.241.34.10 |
So, MEAP scores, Stanford tests, Iowa tests, graduation rates, etc... were not a method of measuring student performance? AYP is a constantly moving target that has far too many nuances to even begin to properly measure overall student performance. It would be like participating in the Decathalon and not doing well in the long jump, therefore, despite finishing first in all of the other events, you don't win. So it is 30 kids to a sub-group, my bad, but it still is a segregated system. Imagine being one of the kids from the failing group. Imagine the conversation, well we didn't make AYP because the damn white kids,etc... didn't come through!! Why even measure by race?? Accountability is a term that comes up when speaking about those you do not trust. Why did education work in this country all through the early part of the 20th century and onward without AYP?? Because the parents at home gave a damn and made sure their children were learning. They did not need a government report to tell them what was going on, they paid attention in the first place. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1867 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.241.32 |
I've seen lots of numbers thrown around on this thread. How many hours a teacher works or doesn't work. How much he or she gets paid, relative to other career options. How much money other people in the district get paid. Yada. Yada. Yada. In my opinion though, there's only one number that really worth talking about: 7.59% 7.59% That's how many students at my local elementary school met or exceeded the state's standard for performance for 7th grade math. The rest of the numbers weren't all that spectacular either. http://warrendale.blogspot.com /2006/08/judge-orders-negotiat ions-in-teachers.html | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 545 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Unfortunately, it's the special ed kids that cause a failing AYP grade. Only 1 percent of those kids can qualify for accomodations. If more require accomodations then their score doesn't count (it counts as a zero toward AYP). DPS has MANY special ed kids which, in turn, causes schools to not make AYP. It's a complicated issue and the public perception of this is vague, at best. One of my Master's thesis was on this topic. It's available for reading, just contact me. Also, we are working with what parents send us. By the time a student is a Junior in high school, if they can't read, I can't perform miracles in a few months time so that kid passes the MEAP. I can do everything in my power to help this child, but there are bigger issues at stake than whether he can pass the MEAP and I tend to focus on those issues first. I'm more worried about the whole child, rather than an insignificant portion of test taking abilities that the kid has or doesn't have. There was another thread on this forum that discussed standardized testing and its problems. A kid doesn't test well if they are hungry, abused, depressed...all of which happen DAILY in my class!! AYP is a joke...not 100 percent of the kids will be proficient in all areas. Can anyone on this forum say they are proficient in everything academic? I can't! | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 492 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.242.214.135 |
Here's the main point and what should be the priority. In all DPS high schools, with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 tops, there is an overwelming percentage, as high as 85% to 90% of 11th grade students that cannot Read and do Math at grade level. I'm sure everyone agree's that this is totally unacceptable. On top of this, students and their families are leaving the city and district in droves to the tune of 10,000 student departures annually. Obviously, this causes a fiscal crisis while the DFT demands pay increases. The definition of insanity. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1869 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.241.32 |
Many? I'll believe that. 92%??? No way.
We're not talking about every student being on the honor roll. We're talking about them simply meeting academic expectations. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 546 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Morena, I agree with your figures on the reading levels. I have Juniors and test them at the beginning of the year for their grade level reading. Very few are reading at grade level. I do help them, make them read, and incorporate some unconventional techniques into my class. By the time they are done with me, 90 percent of them have raised their grade level reading, but it still isn't at the Junior level. I work with what is sent to me. I can't perform miracles. I say every kid should be exposed to reading from birth and that just isn't happening. I am but one person and can't fix it all. I really can't focus on individual kids and making sure they are doing what they are supposed to be doing (reading time, quality of books outside of class, etc) when I have 60 kids in a class and 25 of them don't have a seat. I'm open to suggestions. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 547 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Latest news is that a judge ordered DPS and DFT to negotiate for 24 solid hours. From 6pm tonight until 6pm Tuesday night. Let's hope this gets resolved! There has to be a middle ground someplace... | ||
65memories Member Username: 65memories Post Number: 284 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.73.59.125 |
Speaking of Special Ed, in most high schools the Special Education department is the largest department in the building, surpassing the English department, which used to be the largest. When I started in education 39 years ago, most high schools had 2- 4 special ed. teachers. Now most schools have 12, 13, 14+. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 548 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
We have a large portion of the staff for special ed. Not to mention we have the former Dexter Training School as part of our building now. THOSE students' test scores are also built into our AYP. They are severely cognitively impaired (and they surpass the 1 % rule) so their scores are counted as a zero, even though they can take the MI-Acess and other forms of assessment. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 493 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.242.214.135 |
And here's the other unconfirmed figure that I would like to see DPS be open about and answer before asking for pay raises. Here's what I want to know. How many of the 11th graders have been part of DPS since starting school at the elementary level? I'm willing to bet that this number is high. If MEAP testing and AYP started in 2002, that means this year's 11th grade students being tested were 7th graders in '02. Someone explain how thousands of students can pass through the system without being able to read and do math at grade levels? I thought social promotion ended years ago? How can teachers and the DFT expect to be given pay raises when these facts exist? DT: I commend you for the things that you say you do for students in your classroom. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 494 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.242.214.135 |
This is exactly the kind of legal/court action I'm talking about: http://www.pressofatlanticcity .com/news/newjersey/story/6522 714p-6373738c.html Hey Ron, if you read this, I encourage you to use your law skills and act on this on behalf of Detroit school children and their families. You want to show leadership? Taking action on something like this would be far greater than any contribution you would've made as a state rep. And remember your HS mission statement, "Men for Others". | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 495 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.242.214.135 |
In case the link doesn't work for you. From the pressofAtlanticCity.com Parents sue schools to have public pay to send kids elsewhere By GEOFF MULVIHILL, Associated Press Writer Published: Thursday, July 13, 2006 TRENTON, N.J. (AP) - Van Ness Crawford wants to get his triplet sons out Newark's Malcolm X. Shabazz High School, where the majority of students in the past two years have failed standardized tests in both math and language arts. Crawford, a single father who works as a travel coordinator for a law firm, says he cannot afford private school and the boys, who are about to enter 10th grade, are stuck on waiting lists for magnet schools. Now, he's trying something more drastic: suing to use public money to get them into another school - possibly a private one. Crawford is the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit filed in state Superior Court on Thursday against New Jersey and two dozen school districts with low-performing schools. The plaintiffs assert that their children's right under the state constitution to a thorough and efficient education is being blocked by policies that make it difficult for them to attend other schools. "I'm concerned about why, when I'm told that though the neighborhood school is not doing its job, why my children have to stay there," Crawford said. "To me, it's like sending them on a suicide mission." Crawford and other plaintiffs in Crawford v. Davy want public money to be used to send their children to private schools or more successful public ones. Their lawsuit would affect about 60,000 students in nearly 100 schools around the state where more than half the students in the two last years have failed state standardized tests covering both math and language arts, or where three-quarters of students have failed one of those tests in both years. Many of the schools are in needy districts that already get extra help from the state. Under the remedy spelled out in the lawsuit, the students' families would be able to take the amount of money being spent per pupil by their current school and use it to pay tuition at other schools, both public or private. This concept, often referred to as school vouchers, has been approved in various forms by lawmakers in a handful of states, including Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin and Arizona. Advocates disagree on whether the programs have improved the education of either the students who leave the public schools or those who stay. Efforts to pass a voucher system in New Jersey have never picked up much traction. Other lawsuits trying to force states to use public money for private education have failed in California, Illinois, Florida, New York and Georgia. But Clint Bolick, president of the Phoenix-based Alliance for School Choice, said he feels that the state Supreme Court's history shows it could rule in their favor. He also said other state courts often follow New Jersey's leads on important matters. To advocates of broadening school choice, it's a Civil Rights issue that keeps poor children trapped in low-performing schools - the flip slide of white leaders in the 1950s and 1960s who blocked school integration. "We really have people today who have the audacity to stand in the doorway of these black schools and saying these children cannot come out," said Dan Gaby, the executive director of Excellent Education for Everyone, a Newark group that is backing the lawsuit. The state Department of Education did not comment on the lawsuit. Steve Wollmer, spokesman for the influential 190,000-member New Jersey Education Association, said if the lawsuit is successful, it would hurt public schools by taking money from their coffers. That, he said, could undermine the improvements being seen among the youngest students as a result of another New Jersey lawsuit on school equality, Abbott v. Burke. As a result of that 25-year-old lawsuit, New Jersey has taken steps to improve 31 poor districts including offering free preschools for three- and four-year-olds, building new schools and revamping school curriculums. Reforms are being planned to improve high schools and middle schools - but Wollmer acknowledged that the question is whether those reforms will be too late to help older students now. "This parent, Crawford, he'll tell you: 'What are you going to do for my kid today?'" Wollmer said. "That's a tough question." | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2771 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.73.196.174 |
Detroitteacher - Lies Lies Lies Lies. Whoever spread the rumor that Assistant principals and principals got pay raises needs to stop. Principals and assistant principals have not had pay raises since 2000. My OWN mother is a (high school) DPS principal and she had to give up 10 percent of her salary last year and again this year. Recently, we received a letter from the DPS Benefits Center that there will be an increase in health care co-payments. My mother is still waiting for money that was rightfully hers for six years thanks to the corruption of the Burnley (and now Coleman) administration. Where is the proof of this so-called pay raise? My mother should not have to look for a second job if that was the case. ESPECIALLY IF SHE DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE A CUT IN HER SALARY. Janna Garrison needs to shut her mouth up. |
