Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning July 2006 Connor Creek? Previous Next
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Dtown1
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Username: Dtown1

Post Number: 66
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 68.253.101.134
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 7:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question about Connor Creek. Where was the actual Connor Creek neighborhood located (between what streets). Also, can you sort of describe how the neighborhood used to look like and how it looks now. I heard it usd to be on the spot where the Jefferson North Plant is. Is this true?
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

Post Number: 559
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This subject has been discuss in great detail before on this form. The discussion included postings of historical maps. I tried to search the archives but I couldn't find the thread. See search form on the left side of the home page.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2802
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/25121.html
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4315
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really wish Detroit would have saved some its phyiscal geography as it grew instead of literally flattening most all of the few hills and streams the landscape had.

Since Connor Creek has been discussed, could anyone post some maps of where the old Savoyard Creek used to run through? A search didn't turn up anything.

(Message edited by lmichigan on September 01, 2006)
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Ordinary
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Username: Ordinary

Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.79.89.113
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan,
Someone told me that the only place that really shows the way Detroit looked before it was flattened is Elmwood Cemetery.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4316
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've also heard Palmer Park, but that's really far north, and not part of the original city. I've also heard that Highland Park actually used to sit on considerably elevated land. Is there any truth to that?
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1546
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.203.223.68
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 11:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ft Shelby, and the aforementioned Savoyard Creek.

Fort Shelby
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Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2805
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 11:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From Burton's City of Detroit, 1922:

quote:

"Savoyard Creek had its source in a willow swamp, not far from the present intersection of Congress and Riopelle streets, and flowed in a westerly course. It is said to have derived its name from the fact that one of the early settlers near it came from Savoy. [Silas] Farmer says that the Detroit boys had a favorite fishing hole where the creek crossed Woodward Avenue. An old map shows that it emptied into the river near the foot of Fourth Street. The people living along the creek used it as a receptacle for all sorts of waste matter. After Fort Shelby was abandoned, lumber was taken from the fortification and used to protect the sides from falling in. As population increased and the quantity of garbage, etc., dumped into the stream grew greater, the stenches that arose from the creek rivaled those mentioned by the poet Coleridge in his description of the City of Cologne. In 1836 the city authorities declared it a nuisance and, at great expense, walled and covered it with stone, converting it into a sewer...



In a later chapter about the history of Griswold Street:

quote:

At the same session of the common council of April 30, 1827, it was resolved that the members of the council should meet on the following morning "on the military reservation to examine the River Savoyard with a view to alter its course." The result of this inspection was that it was resolved to deepen the course of the brook from its outlet, through the farm of Governor Cass, as far as the military reservation in the alley between Larned and Congress streets to Griswold Street. In order to reduce this plan to a certainty on the 5th of May, it was

"Resolved, that the ditch of the River Savoyard shall commence at the northwest corner of Mrs. Deveaux's lot and run thence in a straight line to the lane between Larned and Congress streets, at the westerly side of Griswold Street, thence on the northerly side of said lane to the easterly side of Shelby Street, thence on the southerly side of said lane to Cass Street, thence across said street to the present ditch, thence along said ditch to Governor Cass' line."

The Deveraux lot was on the southeast corner of Congress and Griswold streets, the lot subsequently occupied by the courthouse.

The ditch was to be two feet deeper than the present ditch, three feet wide at the bottom and five feet wide at the top. The contract for doing this work was let to James A. Armstrong.


This is a crude map of Detroit in 1796, drawn for an historical magazine in 1879, showing the course of the Savoyard though the town:

Savoyard 1796
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Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2910
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.211.42
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 12:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great info as usual. BTW, I have moved the Conner's Creek thread to the HOF. Click here to go there. Perhaps we can combine it with this under something like The Lost Waterways of Detroit, Primitive Detroit, Pre sprawl Detroit or some such name.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2807
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 12:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds good Lowell. I'll get Hornwrecker on that, pronto!


Another map of Connor's Creek, from ~1921:



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Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2911
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.211.42
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 12:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How does this look for the Savoyard from the description above with Mrs. Deveaux's lot the red square?
savoyard

Side thought: Wouldn't that, in fact, put the Savoyard Club in the Buhl Bldg. literally on top of the Savoyard?
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4317
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 1:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell, yes to your last question. The Buhl Building has a website, and it says the Buhl is built directly atop the site of the old creek, and that it runs underneath the ground as a sewer. That's why I was interested in knowing the full course of the creek.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1548
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.203.223.89
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 1:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've seen a map of the Savoyard, or have it on my computer misfiled somewhere, but that is pretty damn close to what it was. The main difference would be that the shoreline was more to the north, and there was the bluff along the river.

There was a lot of fill done since them. I'll have to go back and search the NOAA archives and get their viewing program again. They've got an extensive archives of period nav maps.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4319
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 2:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, apparently, like a lot of other cities, Detroit has reclaimed a significant amount of downtown waterfront land.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2746
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.72.53
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 3:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Having been to the Savoyard Club for a buddy's wedding in 1986, I am disappointed that the empty space hasn't been transformed into an entertainement spot.

The 26th floor of the Buhl Building has stunning vistas, and great views of the (hard to see) Guardian Buildings fancy top.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3228
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.129
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 10:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The changes needed to make the Savoyard Club ADA compliant were too costly. The passenger elevator only goes to the 26th floor, whereas the club is on the 27th. The freight elevator goes all the way to the top, but you can't transport passengers in a freight elevator.

The women's bathroom is on the 26th, and is not ADA compliant, and neither is the men's bathroom which is on another level.

The building owner ran through the numbers to bring it all up to snuff, and it was around $500,000, and that didn't even factor in cleaning up the disgusting kitchen. That was just too much for the building owner to carry, and nobody approached them with an offer to create a restaurant there.

The space is no longer unused, though. A new tenant moved in within the last year (not counting City Yoga).
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1931
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.228.57.79
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 9:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw the Connor Creek thread with mentions of Bloody Run/Parent's Run in it.

Does anyone know what it would take (ie. costs and physical work) to start the process of daylighting them? I say start at the Detroit River and work back to their source. Cities like Minneapolis have all/most of their original creeks and streams running through them, as well as much of the original topography, and the neighborhoods along these creeks are amongst the most desirable in the city. You literally walk a few hundred feet or so and you go from city living to being immersed in nature to the point that you forget you're in the middle of the city.

Unearthing Bloody Run/Parent's Creek is probably amongst the easiest/most logical. It basically runs along Chene St. which is greatly abandoned in many places.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3230
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.129
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 10:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since most of Detroit's creeks became part of the sewer system, I would put the costs of cleanup very high. This might limit how attractive they are to live next to, also. Look at Fox Creek and the troubles they have/had with Grosse Pointe poop flooding their yards.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4342
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.177.81.18
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 10:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most old cities don't even bother burying powerlines, anymore, let alone trying unearthing and restoring creeks for purely aesthetical purposes. It doesn't make a lot of financial sense, and especially for cash-strapped cities.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 126
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.14.20.35
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 11:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The City of Pontiac has plans but no money to daylight the Clinton River through downtown. It's mostly covered by surface parking lots.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1335
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 1:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Holbrook Creek was a bit larger than most at being around 25 feet wide. Is there still sizeable fluid flow from that creek?
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3231
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.129
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 4:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Holbrook is completely buried.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1344
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 7:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

buried meaning filled in? or diverted to the sewers?
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3234
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.129
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 8:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a sewer.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1345
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 8:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My question was about how much flow was from the creek. When it isn't raining, the storm sewer flow there should be mostly all "Holbrook Creek."
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3235
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.69.129
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's assuming the storm sewer and sanitary sewer are separate in that area. It's so old, I highly doubt it.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1346
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember a creek near my home as a kid in Milwaukee when one of the early shopping centers went in around 1955. There was a small creek that I never really noticed before and after a month or so, it just disappeared (into the sewers). The storm sewer would have emptied into another nearby creek.

On another matter, Milwaukee paid over $120 million to revamp a 9-mile long, urban creek--Lincoln Creek, four blocks from where I lived as a kid. We used to go "crabbing" there for crayfish all the time and catch and sell fifty or more of them apiece to fishermen or cook them ourselves. We used several lines of cord or string attached to meat or salt pork by a small dam by 47th Street built by the CCC during the Depression.

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