  Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 215 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
As I was walking to class today, I saw some sidewalk chalk "art" promoting a "free Palestine" movie to be held on campus a few days in the future. The disturbing thing about it all was that the "artist" had included the language "Israel=White Supremacy" and "Zionism=Racism" on some of the ads. This struck me as outright anti-semitism and was very troubling. I saw some people who appeared to be University offical types inspecting the "art", but they didn't do anything about it (i.e. remove it). I'm all for debate and such, but this seemed to boarder on outright hate based on religious and cultural grounds, which has no place on a public university campus. Your thoughts? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1308 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
anti-Zionist, anti-Israel, but not anti-Semitic | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 216 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
I don't see hoe you can be the first two w/ out being the third. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4358 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Very easy, actually. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1309 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
the first two are political, the third is personal | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 217 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
So trying to run someone out of their home country isn't personal? I support the re-creation of Palestine, but not at the cost of driving Israel into the ocean, which is what some of these groups seem to be advocating. BTW, Israel=White Supremacy is a laugher. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1310 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
If I walk up and shoot you just for being Jewish it's personal | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 219 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
Isn't that what's going on over there these days? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1311 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
not all Jews live in Israel, not all Israelis are Jewish - if it involves the state it's politics, not personal if it's about the way you look, what entity you pray to, who your parents were, it's personal (Message edited by lilpup on September 07, 2006) | ||
Pistonian_revolution Member Username: Pistonian_revolution Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 141.217.63.155 |
the area that is now called Israel is not the home country of the jewish people. it was designated as a state for jewish people by the british following world war II. the british stole that land from the palestinians who rightfully called that land home. if you support the recreation of palestine, then you inherently support the elimination of Israel. im sick and tired of jews crying racism whenever anyone critizes israel. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4359 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Whoa, buddy, I don't support that, at all, Pistonian. I support a two-state solution, but not one at the cost of the other, though I do agree that the movement to Israel was nothing more than countless European invasions of occupied lands. That would be like me leading a group back to Africa to conquer lands as it was my old homeland, and with no regard to the people having lived their for centuries/millenia. The idea that the Jews, soley, own the land that is now the state of Israel outright is arrogant and racist at it's very best. Zionism is racism. It's no different than Black Nationalism or White Supremacy. I support the existence of the state of Israel, but not as a "Jewish State." And, that won't be realistic for two much longer as the Arab population in Israel is growing many times faster than the Jewish population. If they are truly a democracy and not a nationlist theocracy like they insist it is not, we will see how this turns out in a few decades when Arabs are the majority within Israel. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 220 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
If you're going to make an argument like that, then the Jews have every right to claim that land. The Jews lived in that area for thousands of years before they were scattered by the Romans and the Arabs. History doesn't start at 1948. The Temple, one of the central cultural icons of Judaism, was located in Jerusalm. Israel is home to the Jews. I support the creation of Palestine in areas that the British intended for the Palestinian people; the West Bank and Gaza. Of course, those lands were grabbed by Jordan and Egypt. It's interesting how the Arabs treated their own people in that situation. The creation of a Palestinian state does not inherently mean the elimination of Israel, despite what you believe. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 221 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
I'm sorry, but Zionism is not racism. If the Native Americans suddenly came in and kicked everybody out of North American (the Whites, Blacks, Asians, ect.) I doubt you would be claiming that it would be racism on their part, yet that is a hypothetical that is analogious to this situation. Zionism is people going back to their home land. I don't see anybody calling for the destruction of Liberia, but under you're logic that should be happening. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4360 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
The Jews, if their events of history are even true, are not anymore indigenous to Palestine/Canaan than any of the other people that have lived there. The idea that they "own" that land anymore than anyone else in that region, is ridiculous and arrogant. If you really want to go back into their history, why don't you tell the story of how they conquered Canann in the first place, displacing and murdering all of the men, women, children, and livestock of the region, and all of this was supposedly "blessed and condoned by God." Seriously, please don't try and argue from the religious/nationalistic perspective, because it's down-right offensive and ridiculous. If the Jews want to argue they conquered Israel outright in the middle of the last century, that's a legitimate argument, but the "we were here first" is not only debatable, but arrogant. BTW, I never liked the idea of Liberia, and it's clear it was a mistake in how it turned out today with the small American "elite" ruling most of the important parts of the country. The difference is that the American's at least had the decency to purchase the land from the indigenous peoples. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 07, 2006) | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 222 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
What the hell does that mean, Mel? They have every right to that land, they were run out of it by greedy usurpers. The idea that they don't belong there is arrogant and ridiculous. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4361 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
What I meant by that, is that we can't take religious text as fact, at least not the only fact. But, seriously, how far back do you want to go with his? Again, the Jews are no more indigenous to the area than anyone other indigenous people's of the area. You act as if what is today Israel is was empty when the Jews arrived. They lived amongst MANY other ethnic groups. How is their original conquering of the land any different then when they were ran out and disperesed by the Babylonians? Again, if you want to argue they've fought hard for the land, and that they've won it that way, that is a fair arugment, but this arrogant schitt that this is soley their land is ridiculous. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 223 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
The fact that the Jews got ran out by the Romans and the Arabs isn't based in a religious text, it's found in many secular texts as well. Any historian worth his salt will tell you the same. A better description of it is that many other ethnic groups lived amoungst the Jews, not the other way around. The Jews always controlled that area and the "gentiles" lived amongst them. Again, they were driven out by other groups. Now, the Jewish state was established only when the dispora Jews had gained enough wealth to return to the area. The circumstances surrounding the Middle East at the time were very helpful to their cause as well. Put it this way, if the Indians wanted to kick us out, they wouldn't be able to do so because they're not in a position to do so. Not saying that it's fair, we are on their land, but that's the way it is. The circumstances were just right for Israel at the time. I also believe that Israel was helped along by th European powers because they wanted the Jews out of Europe. Anti-semitism was high in Europe at the time. Still kinda is. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4362 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
I'm not denying they got ran out, but this entitlement idea to the land needs to stop. Again, how far back in Canaanite history do you want to go? Again, it was the Hebrews who went in conquering an already occupied land if you want to go by religious texts. To try and make it that this was always Hebrew/Jewish lands is revisionist history, at best. I'm not necessarily arguing against the legitimacy of the current Israeli state. That's another debate, altogether. But, I will not bend to the racist idea, at all, that what is now Israel is somehow inherently "Jewish lands," and especially if Israel wants to proport itself as a representative democracy. Seriously, what kind of dangerous precedent does that set? | ||
Newlaster Member Username: Newlaster Post Number: 190 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.136.136.209 |
Whatever their message---right or wrong---they have and deserve the right to say it. If not on a university campus, Then where? | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 501 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 70.160.37.222 |
Was this your first time to the WSU campus? You will see this stuff every day. Have you seen any sidewalk chalk messages advertising a rally against "America's racist genocide in Iraq" yet? Or "America's illegal occupation and Crusade against Islam?" Have you gotten any handbills from the Communist student union yet? You will if you are there long enough. I'm totally fine with people being morally opposed to the Iraq war and Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, but the thing you have to understand about WSU is that the politics of that campus are just to the left of Karl Marx. I do not support the Iraq War and I did not support Israel's overreaction in Lebanon, but the people on the WSU campus take it to an absoulte extreme that you wouldn't see anywhere except maybe Berkley (CA) or Ann Arbor. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4957 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
WSU... mostly is a anti-discriminatory research college. People can promote their regimes to any lost and confused hip cool skinny young adults. Even offend someone with abusive languange. OH Well! that's the freedom of Speech in America. | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 53 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 69.209.197.177 |
If you dont want to use religious text to prove that Jews have a right to that land you can just go back to when the British Mandate was created. First of all obviously the Brits owned that land so the Palestinians never had their own land in the first place. Additionally, the lands given to the jews in the mandate, was complete crap number one, but number two most of the area already had a majority jewish population. The jews came to those terrible areas. The palestinians gladly sold the land because it was so terrible and felt there was no way it could be irrigated. The palestinians have no itention of accepting the British mandate, the war of independence started, and the arab nations lost giving the Jews the areas that were supposed to part of the palestinian state. The palestinians have had plenty of opportunities to accept two state offers, but their extreme hatred of the jews will never let them think rationally. That being said the students have the right to voice their opinion and im actually glad the students there are voicing their opinions, but a statement like Zionism equals racism is as close to being anti semitic as you can get without actually saying Jewish equals racist, which is just dumb. | ||
Wmuchris Member Username: Wmuchris Post Number: 405 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 141.217.44.112 |
Might have somthing to do with this event on Campus today http://events.wayne.edu/view.p hp?view=3155&speaker=0&list_id = | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3865 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
This discussion sounds eerily like pre-war Germany. "It's anti-semitism only if it's personal"?? Please. As they say, first they took the Jews. Those of you sticking up for the Jewish state (starting with Tndetroiter and others) keep it up. We all know that if there was KKK activity, or other anti-AA graffiti or protesting on WSU's campus, they'd be run outta town, so much for the "free speech" argument, even if it "wasn't personal". Europe is full of "non-personal" anti-Semitism and it's revving up here. "Zionist" is codespeak for "Jew", or, for those who wanna split hairs, those who support Jews (I could call it pro-Jewish-life but I won't). Such shouldn't be tolerated any more than the "N" word - for I could say "it isn't personal" couldn't I. As I've said before, if Israel tossed all her weapons into the sea, there would be another holocaust, but if everyone in the Middle East except Israel melted down their weapons, there would be PEACE throughout the region. WSU officials and others should stand up to this stuff. I suspect you'd then see the real power and people behind this. Perhaps you've noticed that Jews themselves are reluctant to defend themselves, I'll leave that to Jewish posters to explain. However, when despots are saying today that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth and all Jews killed, anyone with a sense of decency needs to stand strong against anti-semitism in any form here in the USA. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 1089 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Stay vigilant, they're behind every tree! Livedog2 | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 224 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
Chris, No, that's not it. I believe that it's some Middle Eastern student group showing a movie on campus to be followed by a Q & A session. That's fine, they have every right to do that. But when you advertise w/ material such as "Israel=White Supremacy" and "Zionism=Racism", that crosses the line to purely discrimatory speech, which is unacceptable. Do you not think that there are Jews on campus who were offended by that? Lmich, do you believe the Arabs have a claim to Morroco? Because under your logic, they don't. That area was controlled by blacks before they were run out by the Arabs. Should the blacks in Africa be screaming for their land back? Israel overreacted in the most recent round of violence over there, but to say that "Israel=White Supremacy" is simply wrong and motivated by hate. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 647 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
The state of Israel is a human rights violator, tortures prisoners, holds people without trials, builds walls to imprison its own people, invades neighbors, has one of the world's largest armies. There are so many reasons to dislike Israel. Where's the surprise that people in this country are against Zionism and Israel? The extremist Zionists in this country love to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but the two are separate and distinct. For an idea that you can oppose Israeli aggression and not be anti-Semetic, read Israeli newspapers like Haaretz or magazines like Tikkun. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3870 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Detroitnerd = clueless. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1130 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
Not any different from super_d insinuating that white men need guns because they have small penises or Danny calling Ferndale "Gaydale" or Livedog referring to "towelheads"... ahh, the list goes on and on... Which makes me wonder why you even post here since this place is obviously unacceptable by your example...? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3872 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Nice try, Susanarosa. The examples you cite were on an internet forum, not the sidewalks of a public university. Perhaps open use of the "N" word, both here and on WSU's campus, would make your world complete? | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 225 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
I'm sorry Susan, but can you point out to me where I said that such behavior is acceptable? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 648 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Nice, meaty response, Karl. Just what we've come to expect from ya. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10565 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.118.137.226 |
So chalk art is our biggest concern in the city? hahaha If only we could do away with that nasty chalk art that offends people, then things would truly turn the corner in Detroit. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1131 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
You didn't. And I never inferred that you did. I'm glad you think that the behavior of some here is unacceptable as what was unfortunately written on WSU's campus. And Karl, I have no clue why you think that I would condone the useage of the N word. You obviously missed the point -- I believe that the usage of any of the derogatory terms found on the sidewalk of WSU as well as on this internet forum should be considered "unacceptable." And I'm glad Tndetroiter feels the same. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1944 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
I've seen posters for the even around campus and in many classrooms. I think there are enough legitimate concerns with Zionism that it is protected by the free speech category and not in the racism/xenophobia category. Remember that this is a public university with a sizable Arabic student population as well as Arabic funders. They have every right to express their concerns just as the Jewish students and funders do. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 226 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.224.239 |
Advertising for the event is fine. Writing "Israel=White Supremacy" on the sidewalks is not. Also, nice red herring, Supersport. | ||
Sknutson Member Username: Sknutson Post Number: 686 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 67.114.23.202 |
The sad thing is, we could have had a two-state solution in 1948.....if the Arabs would have accepted it. Or for that matter, there could have been a two-state solution from 1948-1967, when Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordon controlled the West Bank. Israel may have its faults, but I sure would rather be an Arab in Israel than a Jew in ANY Arab state. And since all of what is now Jordan was part of the British Mandate, I wonder if this movie advocates "freeing" the Palestinians from Jordanian control, and the destruction of the Hashemite Kingdom? (Message edited by sknutson on September 07, 2006) | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 54 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 69.209.197.177 |
The fact that detroit nerd just made those asinine comments just shows how ignorant he is. I actually am very hesitant to respond to it just so that I dont even legitimize anything he said. Where is this data that you have concerning Israel torturing prisoners and violates human rights. And I dont know what invading neighbors means but Israel has never invaded a neighbor without being provoked or invaded by the other arab nations or terrorist groups supported by those nations. As for holding people without trial, thats just plain stupid and Israel is probably one of the only nations in the middle east that has a legit court system. Finally, they have one of the worlds largest armies because they are consistently invaded by other arab nations in the area all becaues of an extreme hatred and anti semitic sentiment by the rest of the arab nations. Palestinians have had many chances to accept proposals even after losing multiple wars along with their anti semtic counterparts within the region. Im not saying Israel is perfect but the are blatantly held to a different standard than almost every other nation in the world. Get your facts straight detroit nerd and then get back to me. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 364 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4 |
Zionism is a racist policy and Israel is a racist state. IMO it is nearly impossible to make a logical argument otherwise. Their constitution is based on the "Right of Return" which allows Jews to come from any country and automatically gain citizenship. No other race or group is afforded the same privilege, not even those who were forced from their homes when Israel was formed. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to maintain such policies (It's their country and a democracy), but to consider your country a "Jewish State" and then deny that there is inherent racism against non-Jews makes little sense (Edited). (Message edited by Johnnny5 on September 07, 2006) | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2944 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.81.50.7 |
I am someone who supports Israel, who has lived there for three month, has been a kibbutz volunteer and more. However, I am not so blindly supportive, nor are countless Israelis, to overlook its shortcomings. Deandub, there are countless reports of Israeli uses of torture that can be easily googled up such as this Amnesty International report. Just because Israel’s overall democratic and open-minded society outshines its neighbors, does not put it above criticism. It has skeletons in its closet just like this country, so while it is a good place, it is not perfect. Liking and supporting a country and criticizing its policies is not a contradiction. Unfortunately, there is a hard core of zealots who will attack any criticism of Israeli policies as anti-Semitic and attempt to divert serious discussion by muddling the distinction between the State of Israel and Jews and Jewish history. Likewise it is easy to jump from someone scrawling on a sidewalk '"Israel=White Supremacy" and "Zionism=Racism"' to indicting a movie you have not seen and presuming that whatever jerk wrote that BS had anything to do with the film or speaks for it and launch that into an anti-Jewish as opposed to an anti-State of Israel conclusion. I am not talking about right and wrong; I am talking about illogic and non sequiturs. Karl obviously has not walked around WSU or maybe any secular campus. Otherwise he would know that KKK, N-word, Nazi, anti-Semitic [both Jew and Arab] and other hate group scrawlings are and always have been rampant in nooks and crannies. The Purdy Library john stalls were the worst at WSU. One could peel off generations of hate there. The full gamut of opinion will always be found at places like WSU. That’s why it is called a university and not monoversity. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 1091 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
It's easy to criticize when you haven't had 6 million of your tribe slaughtered!!!! And, shame on you that are from that tribe that criticize anyway!!!!! If we had a perfect world we wouldn't have to resort to the tactics we use to survive. Political correctness is your suicide pact but not mine!!!!!!!!!! Pacifists can say and do the things they say and do because of the acts of the warriors. If you don't believe that try to start a country in the Middle East without an army and see how long you will last. Place a Star of David on your flag and you won't even get started. So, keep bitching, moaning and whining because you can and don't forget who to thank. And, that's all without the benifit of poppers!!!!!!!!!!!!! Livedog2 | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 649 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Deandub, Why don't we leave out the theatrics and the name-calling for a moment. ("Asinine" and "stupid" and "ignorant" and stuff like that.) Israel tortures its detainees. Where is the documentation? Well, Human Rights Watch is generally well-respected, and they issue reports condemning Israel's human rights record. (hrw.org/english/docs/1998/08/ 20/isrlpa1280.htm) That report says, "Israel's use of torture, arbitrary detention, and hostage-taking were among twenty-one violations and areas of concern addressed by the United Nations Human Rights Committee in its first review of Israel's implementation of the ICCPR, which ended 31 July 1998. " Human Rights Watch called on Israel to: * Immediately end the practice of torture, amend domestic law to be consistent with the covenant’s prohibition of torture, including adopting a definition of torture consistent with international law, and make public the guidelines governing interrogation procedures; * Immediately end the practice of holding detainees as hostages, both inside Israel and in the territories under its control. Persons held as “bargaining chips” should be immediately released; * Immediately end the practice of arbitrary or prolonged administrative detention, and revise its laws to ensure that all detainees are guaranteed at minimum the right to prompt and effective judicial review of the lawfulness and conditions of their detention; the right to receive an explanation of one’s rights upon arrest in one’s own language or soon thereafter and to be informed of the specific, detailed, and personalized reasons for the deprivation of liberty; the right of immediate access to family, legal counsel, and a medical officer; and the right to be released and seek compensation if the detention is arbitrary or unlawful You dont know what I mean when I say Israel invades its neighbors? Well, they just finished invading Lebannon a few weeks ago. They have invaded the lands around them and conquered them since their inception. Let's get one thing straight: No country ever says, "We're going to go in there, take their stuff, kill them, and take their land." Every country that has invaded any other country always claims to be doing it for the best of reasons. Take the recent U.S. invasion of Iraq. It was called a "pre-emptive strike" so we can "stop them before they strike us". What was it though? It was an invasion. Similarly, Israel has couched its invasions, bombings, hostage-takings, etc., in the language of self-defense. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. When a country blows up a neighboring country's power plants, highways, sewer systems, schools, hospitals, and government buildings, how seriously should we take claims that it's done to rout a terrorist organization? It sure sounds like an invasion to me. As for holding people without trial, it's called "administrative detention." The Nation reported that "Israel holds more than 9,000 Palestinian prisoners, about 900 of whom are under 'administrative detention,' i.e., without trial. It has held some of these prisoners for longer than three years." As for Israel having the largest army because it's surrounded by hostile nations, that's what the Israelis say. Why are they hostile? Could it be because Israel has been enlarging its territory through war, oppressing the Palestinian people, and making life miserable for its neighbors? Even in Israel, many there feel that these tactics are creating more animosity among Arab and Muslim nations. There you go, buddy. | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 59 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 69.209.197.177 |
Im not even going to read the rest of the post, because just from glimpsing at it I can tell it doesnt make sense, but either way I was not name calling. I was describing your comments. Those are called adjectives. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 650 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Deandub11, If you're going to debate Israeli policy so hotly, you should acquaint yourself with the facts. Especially when you say somebody is ignorant and demand them. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 227 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.225.108 |
Off topic, but please, let's stop calling the U.S. action in Iraq a pre-emptive strike. A pre-emptive strike is where you know the other side is about to strike you and you, instead, strike them first. A pre-emptive strike is legal under international law. Almost anybody w/ a brain knows that Iraq was not about to strike the U.S. when Georgie did his thing. A preventative strike is one where you rationalize your actions because the other side might have struck you somewhere down the road. It is illegal under international law and almost every serious political scientist and jurist of international law believes that this is what the U.S. did in regards to Iraq the 2nd time around. Sorry to get off topic, but that little symantical issue really irks me. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 228 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.225.108 |
BTW, almost all the Arab nations have been calling for Israel's distruction since 1948. To say that the hatred for Israel that is possessed by its Muslim neighbors is a result of Israeli aggression is way off base. Some of Israel's actions have no doubt made the fires of hatred burn brighter in the Muslim world, but you have to wonder if Israel did those things because it felt threatened by the Muslims in the first place. I guess it's a bit of a chicken and the egg type of scenario. Also, if you were totally surrounded by people who all wanted you dead, I'd imagine you'd be a little trigger happy, too. Doesn't mean that their actions are justifiable, but you can begin to understand them. It's a very tough and complex situation over there. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1489 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Funny, that is the exact reason the PLO was formed and exists, to create conflict. Israel was created to re-establish a Jewish State. | ||
Sknutson Member Username: Sknutson Post Number: 687 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 67.114.23.202 |
Perhaps if the Palestinians stopped their terror.....http://web.amnesty.org/library /Index/ENGMDE210062006 | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3875 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Detroitnerd said: "You dont know what I mean when I say Israel invades its neighbors? Well, they just finished invading Lebannon a few weeks ago." You forgot that one teeny tiny little detail: first Hezbollah (representing Lebannon) came into Israel, killed 6 soldiers and kidnapped 2 more, taking them back into Lebannon. To date I don't believe they've been released. Before this "little" incident (compare it to Mexico coming into the USA, killing 6 of our soldiers and kidnapping 2 others back into Mexico - and not returning them) things were relatively peaceful between Israel & Lebannon. So maybe you can resume your story from there. Seems that Israel might have had some reason for going ballistic. | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 62 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 69.209.197.177 |
Like I said I dont really want to get into his post, so I didnt see the remark, but Karl thank you. I dont defend Israel in every situation, but this one is so obvious. A terrorist organization supported by other arab nations and maybe not supported but definitely not disarmed according to the UN resolution by Lebanon came over the border for no reason whatsoever as Israel wasnt even stationed within their borders and attacked Israel's army. The mexico analogy is right on point. This shouldnt even be a discussion. If this was the US and/or were christians there would be a completely different twist from the media and other protestors. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 651 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Good point on "preventative" and "pre-emptive" Tn. I don't know about these blanket statements about Arab and Muslim countries all wanting to wipe out Israel. I think the perception here in the United States is skewed because the political establishment and the media are solidly behind Israel no matter what. As for those Palestinians, yes, Amnesty is right: They shouldn't target civilians. Same goes for the Israelis, who fly helicopter gunships over the streets and blast civilian passers-by with missiles. Targeting civilians is wrong, but if one of the players is an imprisoned people surrounded by walls and checkpoints, and the other is one is a massive military with the latest weapons provided to it free as well as a large, undisclosed nuclear capability, well ... who deserves more censure? | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 63 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 69.209.197.177 |
Additionally, again Israel has never attacked a neighbor without provocation and if you are trying to say that the nations around them are hostile because of conquering lands, making life miserable for neighbors and for how they treat the Palestinians let me tell you this. The lands the conquer and keep are only for their own protection. they have won every war that was started by the other arab nations and only kep the lands necessary to keep their people out of harm. If the wanted the couldve kept much more after winning a war not started by them. Also, concerning the Palestinians, none and I mean none of the arab nations give two shits about the Palestinians unfortunately. It is a cover for their hatred of Jews. The Palestinians are being used as pawns. for example, when Israel made peace with egypt, a condition that was put on the treaty by the Israelis was to give egypt the gaza strip and they could let Palestinians act under their own rule, but the area would be owned by Egypt. Egpyt's response was ok forget peace. If you are going to make us take the gaza stip we arent going to make peace with you. If they were soo worried about the Palestinians they would have done everything in their power to take that land from the Israelis so that they could make sure the Palestinians were taken care of. thats just one example there are countless. These nations are trying to dupe the public into believing this is all a humanitarian issue. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 652 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Right, the story with Lebanon-Israel all began with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. (Except there is evidence that Israel had been planning the invasion for some time.) Israel does illegal stuff all the time: Illegal settlements, illegal violations of airspace, illegal arrests, etc. Why the furor over the IDF kidnappings? It's politically convenient, and provides cover for the invasion. People are kidnapped all the time -- by Israel. Israel just kidnapped much of the Palestinian political leadership recently. Besides, when a radical faction kidnaps some of your soldiers, your response should not be a terror bombing of an entire country. Why? Because before the invasion of Lebanon, Hezbollah was strong in the south and weak in the north. After the war? The entire Lebanese people are now UNITED behind Hezbollah. What Hezbollah couldn't do, the IDF accomplished in a month. Nice job. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1490 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
They were always UNITED. There is a reason that these countries do not denounce the terrorist activies of the groups its supports or protects. The difference between the IDF and the others is that the groups that are attacked parade the dead around and Arab TV loves to broadcast it. That is why one side looks so horrendus compared to other. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 653 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Really, _sj_? Then you should tell them over at Jewish Peace News. I'm sure they don't know what they're talking about and will welcome the news. http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace .org/publish/article_693.shtml #Article1 "When Hezbollah first attacked an IDF outpost and took two Israeli soldiers (killing three in the attack), many Lebanese were quite angry with them for unilaterally deciding to thrust Lebanon into the line of Israeli fire. But the enormity of the Israeli attack unified Lebanon in their rage against Israel, and the obvious fact that Israel couldn't even pretend a justification for the scale of the destruction it has wrought." | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2762 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.90.227 |
I'm not getting into this squabble. But I did have a respectful question for Livedog2... did you lose family in the Holocaust? | ||
Sknutson Member Username: Sknutson Post Number: 688 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 67.114.23.202 |
If one of the players is a terrorist organization, and the other is a democratic government defending itself, well.....who deserves more censure?
Keep looking, and let me know when you find the Palestinian Peace News. (Message edited by sknutson on September 07, 2006) | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 655 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Sknutson, just because we call one side "democratic" and the other "terrorist" doesn't mean much. The people in the Taliban ("terrorists") were once "freedom fighters" that Reagan praised and funded. They're just names. We're closer to the truth looking at their actions. A democracy can arrest people and detain them without trial? A democracy can torture people? A democracy can invade nearby countries and take their land? If that's a democracy, the word is worthless. (Message edited by detroitnerd on September 07, 2006) | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 1093 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Yes, many! Livedog2 | ||
Sknutson Member Username: Sknutson Post Number: 689 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 67.114.23.202 |
http://christianactionforisrae l.org/antiholo/ml_king.html Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 328 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 12.75.18.26 |
I am not an anti-Zionist, but at the same time I get sick of so many Zionists crying anti-Semitism every time someone dares to criticize Israel's government or policies. It's like the way certain members of the Detroit City Council play the race card when some white person from the burbs criticizes them. As for the chalk art, that kind of stuff is everywhere on the WSU campus. If someone gets offended, they can always buy some chalk and write a response. I, for one, would like to see the campus become more politicized. It'd make it feel like a real college. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4364 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Looking back at my earlier comments, it's obvious I was being reactionary instead of offering a thoughtful response. So, let me explain, as clear as I can, why the radical ideology of Zionism leaves such an incredibly bad taste in my mouth: 1. Zionism, at its most basic endgame/conclusion, has roots in organized religion regardless of whether it takes on nationalistic or secular traits. The base is within Judaism, as the claim for the state is ultimately believed to be backed by the divine, when it all comes back to the basics. This is a problem for me because I'm not generally a fan of organized religion (and that's putting it lightly), be it Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, among many of the other major world religions. At it's endgame, Zionism supports the creation of a Jewish-ruled homeland, and even more terrifying when you think about it, at any cost necessary. It is a movement for the creation of a Jewish-ruled state, not a state of Jews. That doesn't sit well with me, at all. Nor does the religious aspect of the movement that claims divine right over a particular piece of land, as if the most powerful being in the universe is petty and unjust enough to show favortism to one people by selecting land for them. 2. As the state currently stands under Zionism, it's only partly a democracy. Let me explain. It is a foregone conclusion that Arabs, in the not too distant future, will make up a majority of the country's population, and thus, will eventually be a majority in government, as well. If Israel is truly a democracy, with the basic democratic principle of majority rule with minority rights, the test is soon to come to see if they abide by that. Currently, Israeli Jews claim a democracy because they are in power, but do any of us seriously believe that when Arabs become the majority they will nicely step aside to be ruled as "a state with Jews" instead of a "Jewish State?" 3. Zionism, for the longest time before statehood, was seen as a radical/exteme movement, even within the confines of the Jewish communities around the world. Much like the "Back to Africa" movement in the United States, it was a fringe ideology, and for good reason. It took hold upon the realization that Jews could invade Palestine and possibly take it. It became popular because it was opportunistic, not necessarily because it was morally conscionable or just. 4. It is half Zionism's fault that Israel doesn't feel the pressing need or obligation to do something about the West Bank and Gaza. It is Zionism that suppresses the sense of urgency that should be there for a two-state solution. It is too Israeli Jew's short-term advantage to continue to keep Palestinian Arabs as second-class citizens, and Zionism certainly doesn't obligate Israeli Jews to treat Arabs (or any non-Jews for that matter) as full equals under the government. Jews are givin priviledge in immigration, they are the only ones mentioned in the nation's national anthem, and again, I seriously don't believe they will ever give up their government when they become the majority. Zionism creates a clear and distinct separation between Jews and non-Jews in Israel. 5. Lastly, it was Zionism that still allows many right-wing Israeli's to this very day to celebrate the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, and many moderates excuse it as anything but what it was, an act of terrorism, even if part of a resistence movement, among the many other terrorist acts propogated agaist the British Mandate and its Arab allies for Israeli Jewish independence. During the war with Lebanon, this summer, Bibi Netanyahu attended the 60th anniversary celebration of the bombing. At the anniversary a plaque was revealed that read "For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated," implying in a not-too-subtle way that the British ignored warnings, or that the victims were somehow legitimate targets. Zionism is the root of this excusatory ideology, which pretty much stats, when followed to its endgame, that anything Israeli Jews do, or had done, in the protection of their state can be considered infallible. As has been said before, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so I don't want to hear any Israeli Jews use the word "terrorist" when speaking of resistence movements, unless they are willing to face up to their own and not be hypocrites about the whole thing. There is too much blood on two many hands in that region, and Israeli Jews are not immune to legitimate criticism. I just see Zionism as an incredibly dangerous ideology if followed through on to its foregone conclusion, and I truly believe that it is just another form of racism/extreme nationalism that this world doesn't need. It's ironic that another dangerous ideology used against the Jews created a nearly as extreme ideology in Zionism. This is just my opinion. It is no secret that many people hide behind anti-Zionism fronts to validate their own anti-Jew/anti-Semitism. I'd like to state outright that I'm not one of them. I think the conspiracy theories often attributed to Jews are simply disgusting and the natiest of racism. Still, I find Zionism far too dangerous and ideology for me to be a fan or supporter of it, and I resent the argument to the very last that there is no way to separate anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. I also resent that even questioning Israeli policy here in the United States isn't tolerated. If you even so much as question Israeli policy, you're an anti-semite. There is no open debate or dialogue. It's "support Israel" or else. It reminds me a lot of the "America right or wrong" ideology that has taken over this country. For many, there is no such thing as a legtimate question or concern about Israeli policy. If Israel asks us to jump, we don't ask "why?" we ask "how high?" BTW, if I have any facts wrong concerning some of the events and situations I've mentioned, please let me know. I don't claim to be an expert on the situation. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 08, 2006) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2764 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.244 |
Thanks Livedog2. At least this puts into perspective your feelings for those that seek the destruction of Israel, and as some forumers have said... your insensitivity towards Arabs. Sorry for your loss. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3877 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
I don't see much insensitivity toward Arabs in anything Livedog has said, especially considering his life experiences. However, there is incredible insensitivity toward Israel by Arabs and non-Arabs alike on these threads. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 486 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5 |
"...but do any of us seriously believe that when Arabs become the majority they will nicely step aside to be ruled as "a state with Jews" instead of a "Jewish State?" The problem is that Israel wouldn't be "a state with Jews." They would be driven out as sure as the sun rises in the east. To criticize the Israeli goverment because they have concerns for their very survival is foolish. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 857 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
Interesting comments from all, but I would like to remind everyone that in this country; hate, anti-semitism, racism, and any other ways of thinking are not illegal, nor will they ever be, as long as I am alive and kicking. Agree or disagree with them, the ideas have every right to be heard. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 752 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
i do not think that being anti-israel means being anti-semetic. having heard stories of the treatment of arabs by the israel-govt, i think i agree on only one thing here. BOTH sides are wrong and sacrifice by both parties has to be made. the israel settlers have been there for years now and now have grandchildren being born there, arabs have to realise the situation and learn to live with an israel state. that being said, the treatment of arabs by israel has to improve, they have to offer the olive branch. they have the most to lose. no one side is right here, and no one side is wrong. ignorance and hatred is hurting the region. gambling man... nice words. i like what you wrote. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1317 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
oh spare us - there are Jews throughout the Arabic countries and Iran | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3905 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Mike, has lebannon released the 2 kidnapped Israeli soldiers yet? Until they do, I think it's fine for Israel to keep pounding on lebannon. | ||
Tigersfan9 Member Username: Tigersfan9 Post Number: 66 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 64.118.151.178 |
------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- quote: oh spare us - there are Jews throughout the Arabic countries and Iran ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- The extremely small number of Jews who may fall into that category are certainly not living openly as Jews. Unlike Israel, which welcomes Israeli Arabs into its society free of persecution, Jews living in most Arab countries would be killed if their true identity was discovered. But that's the dichotomy between the civilized world and Islamic fundamentalists. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1492 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Thanks for adding to my post. They were angry that they were in the firing line, they did not speak out or codemn what had happened.
LMichigan, it is not the creation but the re-establishment. They considered the State to have existed and they were exiled from there. (Message edited by _sj_ on September 08, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4371 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
The problem is that Israel wouldn't be "a state with Jews." They would be driven out as sure as the sun rises in the east. To criticize the Israeli goverment because they have concerns for their very survival is foolish. RJK, That's understandable, as that's a legitimate arguement, but you can't call it a democracy. Again, do you believe that Israel, when it has an Arab majority in both population and in government, will abide by the very basic principle of majority rules and minority rights? If they don't abide by that very basic democratic principle they can not call themselves a democracy, because Arabs will become even more discriminated against than they currently are. It's a complicated issue, but that's a sticking point for me. A Jewish-ruled states is inherently discriminatory, thus inherently racist/xenophobic, and it's ALL because of Zionism. Again, what is Israel going to do with the West Bank and Gaza? They longer they sit on the issue and keep the Palestinians in economic and civic limbo, the more they are simply delaying the inevitable. There is no simple solution, but I'm tired of the one-sided arguments in this country that imply "Israel = good, Palestine = bad." It's not that simple, and to try and portray and simplify the issue that way is foolish and helps no one. I don't care if it's Zionism, Wahhabism, Black Nationalism...they are all something the world doesn't need. SJ, That's even more scary. Couldn't any displaced peoples form an ideology similar to that of Zionism and be justified in many's thinking ot "taking back" a land they once occupied? By that kind of entitlement ideology, couldn't the Native Americans, and respective tribes, be justified (if they had the numbers) of starting a new war against the United States government to reclaim the land they once lived on? (Message edited by lmichigan on September 08, 2006) | ||
Drm Member Username: Drm Post Number: 1054 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.255.236.79 |
Zionism = white supremacy Death to Israel We should cut off all US funding to Israel and see how long they last - since some folks on here seem to think that the fact that Israel has "won" wars with US dollars and hardware justifies their inhumane actions. Israel has kidnapped how many Palestinians? That's right, we don't know. But Hezbollah kidnaps 2 soldiers and it's reason to destroy an entire country? Something is seriously wrong with the logic here. Rich people have armies. Poor people use whatever means necessary to fight back. Maybe we should equally arm both the Palestinians and the Israelis and let them fight to the death. Zionism = white supremacy Death to Israel | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4375 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
WTF? You are exactly the reason why people can't accept my arguements, Drm. Your hate is just sickening. | ||
Ha_asfan Member Username: Ha_asfan Post Number: 19 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 69.14.17.198 |
I've read all the comments...not very encouraging. Drm is especially pathetic. I am Israeli, my Israeli passport is always in my pocket, so this discussion is very close to the bone for me. When I read such comments, comments condeming Israel for it's brutal treatment of Arabs, I always wonder how much the writers actually know about Israel's treatment of Arabs. Clearly, it isn't a high level of enlightenment. After spending time living in Israel, some of the writers may be better equipped to monitor and report on the reality of the situation. Israeli Arabs are FAR BETTER OFF than their Arab brothers and sisters living in Arab lands. Aside from stealing hundreds of millions of dollars destined to the Palestinians [a recently coined term as "Palestinians are what exactly ?], what did or what is the Palestinian government doing for their people ? So Yasser Arafat and his cronies took all of the money to buy lavish homes and support thier lavish lifestyles in the West while their poor victimized by big bad Israel brothers and sisters suffered in poverty. If it weren't so sad and true, you's have to wonder if this wasn't scripted by Karl Rove himself. The freedoms in the Arab countries are of course, marvels of the modern world. Jordan, being the most free is still not a fun place to spend your life. And the Lebanese, the Lebanese never considered themselves to be Arabs, they were LEBANESE and very proud of that. So many people say the USA should stop giving money to Israel, sure, it's a good idea, the USA should stop giving money to all other countries and they should keep the American nose out of the rest of the world's affairs. The world is not a pretty place yet some people think "gee, if we just get rid of Israel....the whole middleast will blossom as a flower of peace, love, dove, Bobby Sherman, loveins, give me the proverival break. Arabs have warred [is that a word ?] among themselves since the beginning of time. Tribal societies are always at war with one another and the Arab culture is a sterling example of this. Seems few people care that five hundred million Arabs want to push the six million Israelis into the sea. And if it were five hundred million Israelis trying to push six million Arabs in to the sea....lol, a different story, I am sure. So how many times have you been walking down the street and your local coffeeshop was blown up by a terrorist ? Oh, hasn't happened to you ? Only once for me. And your local mall ? haven't has that experience yet either ? That too has happened to me and I know the "fragrance" of burning flesh, death and carnage. It was a bad year, me in two terror attacks....but I digress...as the saying goes, until you have walked in the other's shoes....and yes, I fully understand the reverse works too, until I have walked in the Arabs shoes.....but this is about the right of a country to exist. The right of a country who has been around as long as history has been around. Back to modern times....a lot of people think that Israel uses American know how and technology to fight the enemy. Not all true. True that Israel gets some weaponry from the USA and the first thing the Israelis do is dismantle the American ingenuity and replace it with their own. There may be American built planes and such which are totally retrofitted with Israeli systems. This caused a huge problem several years ago when the USA tried to get back one of the planes and Israel would return it only after they had removed their technology. Much of the technology used today, in all areas of life are Israeli...that is probably why so many Western compaines have their software development programs based in Israel. A few weeks ago when the Camerman and reporter who were kidnapped by the Palestinians in Gaza were released, they immediately ran to Israel for safety...funny. My thoughts are not organized and I am leaving at this point. Just want to say that the hatred posted by some people will come back to bite them and I feel badly for them. I feel badly because their perspectives are not reality based and when it comes time for them to seek protection or aid from someone, they had better hope that they are asking from the right people, not the ones they trash bo vehemently. I can just see it now....laying in the ambulance, dying, hoping to survive and the paitent sees a the doctor has a Jewish name...and the patient asks "are you Israeli ?" the doctor says "yes, I am" and the patient, naturally, would have to say "please, let me die....I can't accept your help". Take away everything the Jews and Israel have given you and you'll be leading a very different life. Very different, indeed. | ||
Drm Member Username: Drm Post Number: 1055 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.220.233.126 |
Look, dumbasses, disagreement with Zionism and Israeli policies does not equal hatred of Jews. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 256 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 141.217.226.172 |
For many, it does. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4380 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
And especially you, Drm. You just wrote "Death to Israel"; not anyone else. Seriously, how much clearer could you make it? If you read my posts above, you can see I have many serious questions concerning the Jewish State, Israel. But this "Death to Israel" schitt is based in its very heart on Anti-Semitism, and you know it, Drm. | ||
Rasputin Member Username: Rasputin Post Number: 3765 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Ha_asfan has just stated how the epitomy of "white supremacy" manifests itself. Statements such as "better off" ["Compared to What" and who's opinion?] ...... damn, even an illiterate, deaf, dumb and blind person can see that the European concept of Manifest Destiny being shown -- AGAIN -- in the raw in real time. Lil Pup called it out ..... "anti-Zionist, anti-Israel, but not anti-Semitic", although it is highly personal!! and btw: the Jews of the stolen land called Palestine are white, Germanic and Slavic folk; NOT Semites. Methinks that translates to EUROPEAN!!!!, not Middle Eastern!!! Go figure .... Lowell gave perhaps the most centered statement on the original post ..... "Unfortunately, there is a hard core of zealots who will attack any criticism of Israeli policies as anti-Semitic and attempt to divert serious discussion by muddling the distinction between the State of Israel and Jews and Jewish history. ..... The full gamut of opinion will always be found at places like WSU. That’s why it is called a university and not monoversity." Black-atcha ..... watching what some folk term Conspiracy be played out in REALITY | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 370 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4 |
My only hope is that most Israelis are more grateful than Ha_asfan for the help America has given to them. "So many people say the USA should stop giving money to Israel, sure, it's a good idea, the USA should stop giving money to all other countries and they should keep the American nose out of the rest of the world's affairs." Are you f-ng joking???? Israel receives between 20-30% of all the foreign aid that the U.S dispenses. Well over 100 billion U.S dollars over the past 50 years! Not bad considering Israel is among the wealthiest countries in the world and is home to about 1/10th of 1 percent of the world's population. You are more than welcome to ask your people to return it if it's not needed. "True that Israel gets some weaponry from the USA and the first thing the Israelis do is dismantle the American ingenuity and replace it with their own. There may be American built planes and such which are totally retrofitted with Israeli systems. This caused a huge problem several years ago when the USA tried to get back one of the planes and Israel would return it only after they had removed their technology. Much of the technology used today, in all areas of life are Israeli...that is probably why so many Western companies have their software development programs based in Israel." So you're OK with accepting our 3 billion dollars per year of military aid, but won't share "your military" technology with the U.S? I used paretheses because I remember seeing the huge amounts of U.S dollars that were given to Israel to help develop the Merkava tanks and Arrow missile technology. If you would like you can also return our 300 F16s. I'm sure we could find a use for the extra 10 billion dollars. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4383 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Ras, I find myself in rare agreement with you. The Jews of Europe are just as much, if not more, mixed than the African Americans in America, which is why I find it kind of ironic and funny that they want to lay claim their land, as if they are even "their's" in the first place. It's nothing more than the same European conquest dreams taken out against almost every other corner of the world, but under a different name and cover. Even more ironic is that even indigenous Jews are but one ethnically Semitic people that have inhabited the Levent/Palestine/Canaan. I've already said it, but Zionism seems to be an inherently racist and arrogant, extremist ideology. In the full spectrum of Jewish ideologies, this is easily one of the most "out there," worrisome, and extreme, and propogated not so much by the indigenous Jews, but ironically the ones with as much European ancestery as Semitic ancestary. In fact, the current people dubbed "Palestinians" are just as much of Semitic ethnicity, if not more so in many cases, even with the Arabization of the area. Both sides of this are just constant lessons in irony and stupidity. The region is nothing but a bunch of competing, barbaric, extremist ideologies, one to match another, and I don't see that ever going to change. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.109.36 |
I am in agreement with Lmichigan and Ras on this point. Ha-asfan... I feel for you, and agree with most of what you say. But many of your comments towards arabs and the proper treatment of arabs sort of shows that you are eating the propaganda that your government is feeding you. There is a racist overtone towards arabs in your post, I honestly cannot blame you, but on this board, we are trying hard to be objective. Being from lebanese decent, and hearing the tale of israeli treatment of those living in the south, its just as easy to understand the same hatred. both parties have been pretty much downright evil and barbaric towards each other. I think that the point that many here are trying to get accross is that just because someone does not believe in zionism or does not support the policy of the israeli govt, does not make them anti-semetic. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3953 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Brigitte Gabriel's Speech at Duke University Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out I'm proud and honoured to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. As someone who was raised in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world. I was raised in Lebanon, where I was taught that the Jews were evil, Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea. When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water. It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon. My mother was wounded by a Moslem's shell, and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians, Christians, Lebanese, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn't see religion, they didn't see political affiliation, they saw people in need and they helped. For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital. Those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government, about the Jews and Israel, that was so far from reality. I knew for fact that, if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown over to the grounds, as shouts of joy of Allah Akbar, God is great, would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets. I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers: one in particular Rina, her only child was wounded in his eyes. One day I was visiting with her, and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem, Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started waking out of the room, and this mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me. She holds me crying and says: "It is not your fault." We just stood there crying, holding each other's hands. What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old only child, and still able to love me, the enemy, and between a Moslem mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians. The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism versus civilization. It's democracy versus dictatorship. It's goodness versus evil. Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian "armed struggle." However, once such behaviour is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized everywhere in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of God. Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York, from Moscow to Madrid, from Bali to Beslan. They blame suicide bombing on "desperation of occupation." Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent. On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel's independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street, in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem. Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of "occupation" but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state. So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It's time to all stand up and support and defend the state of Israel, which is the front line of the war against terrorism. More at: http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/gabriel.asp (Message edited by karl on September 10, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4384 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Awww....feel good story of the week. Try telling that to the rest of Lebanon, Christian and Muslim alike, they now support Hezbollah even though they didn't before. The attack was just as much against the Lebanese people, as it was Hezbollah, and the world knows that. Talk about collective punishment. They'd been trying to find a way to go back and reclaim their "Vietnam," which they lost just as embarrassingly as America's own Vietnam. Please, a story of a few Lebanese that saw that as a God-send is not indicative of much of anything. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.93.235 |
I have a story... a true one with no dramatice feel good story or anything, no point to it, just a view from the other side. My friends brother (age 12, USA born) and mother went to go visit friends and family in lebanon. The 12 year old and mom begin to experiance bombings from all corners of south lebanon (not a hizaballah soldier in sight), they eventually find shelter in a small 4 unit building (with 200 people) he says there is little food and water(remember this is my friend's brothers story, not mine) they were there for about 24 hours hiding with only candle light with the sounds of explosions around them. they get word that the explosions are coming closer so they get ready to leave... as everyone is getting ready to leave amoung the bombardment and chaous, this young girl (age not known) has a part of the building fall on her, her legs are no longer with her, some man goes to rescue the other half (breathing) her last words were "help me." Remember, this is not a mass email story, not found on some messege board or anything. This is out of the mouth of a young american kid visiting his grandparents overseas. Now, I am sure that there are much more horrific stories from both sides. The point is, how is any of this hatred going to stop if stories like this are always created, exagerated, and taught from generation to generation. My friend's brother for example, after witnessing all of this bloodshed, how is he ever going to devolop an objective opionon over israel-arab politics? He wont, the same way ha-asfan will never be objective or sympathtic to arabs. like i said, no point. no answer. i just know that something radical in the world will have to happen for this barbaric treatment from both sides stops. and it is not israel conquering the lands that it sets out to have under the zionism code, and its not all israelis in the region to die and fall into the sea. this radical movement is objective, sincere, and humane negotionations. as US citizens, we need to be much more aware of our governments involvment there. disccusions such as those happening in WSU and other universities in the nation are healthy. americans can no longer be blissfully ignorant towards the rest of the world. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3957 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Lmichigan said: "The attack was just as much against the Lebanese people, as it was Hezbollah..." Nice try, Lmich. "The attack"?? You mean the initial entry by Hezbollhah into Israel, where they killed 6 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped 2 others back into Lebannon? That attack? As I've said before, if everyone but Israel melts down their weapons, there will be peace in the Middle East. If only Israel melts down her weapons, there will be another holocaust. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4385 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Oh, I agree with the last part. BTW, Israel's overreaction to Hezbollah was just that. They'd been waiting to get even with the country ever since they were kicked out. It was disporportionate force, and most of the rest of the world recognized that even getting the United States, who usually seems to support Israel right or wrong, pause and concern and to question the offensive. It was overkill, plain and simple. A proper, responsible, and proportinate response to the killing of 6 soliders, and the kidnapping of two, IS NOT launching a near full-scale war against the Lebanese people. But, this is an entire subject altogether. Again, the whole region is f%cked up, antiquated and barbaric, no matter how many glitzy skyscrapers they built to try and appear otherwise. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3958 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.110.101.59 |
Agreed - but for Hezbollah to attack and then consider the magnitude of the response was plain dumb. Yes, the region is a mess. I wish we could shut off our oil $$ for a year, I suspect they might try to work together a bit more. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4391 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Now, you may be surprised by this, but I believe that the United States should come to Israel's defense when it is attacked. But, ONLY if the state is in danger of total invasion or collapse, which it NEVER was with Hezbollah's "bottle rocket" attack. We currently given Israel and unquestinoned and undebated $3 BILLION military subsidy EVERY year. To me, we can't ever play and honest broker in that region if we going to keep propping up the IDF, which makes no sense to me as they are already one of the most powerful militaries in the world. It blows my mind that we continue this uneven-handed policy in the region. Many Lebanese are also right to blame America for the offensive. After all, many bombs dropped on Lebanon were American made. It's funny that we can't appropriately and quickly appropriate relief money for Katrina, or homeland security money to the places that need it (i.e. our power plants, harbors, big cities...), but we can get weapons caches delivered and other military subsidies to the IDF, and with the quickness, if you know what I mean. If it were up to me, I'd pull all military subsidies for Israel, and isolate the entire region for a short time to see how they'd change. I think it is morally unconscionable and irreprehensible that we are funding the IDF to a tune of $3 billion, without question (which is what bothers me), while Israel continues to sit on problem of the Palestinians they currently have held hostage in their own land with second-class citizenship. I find it morally unconscionable and irreprehensible that we are still directly funding the IDF, but there have been hundreds of thousands massacred in the Sudan while we stand by idley. You want to see a real threat to American interest? Just keep ignoring Sudan, and Somalia, and Afghanistan...which are becoming breeding grounds for terrorist as we continue with our flawed Iraq War (and pure distraction from the War on Terrorism), or unquestioned and direct subsidy of the IDF... We are totally shooting ourselves in the foot with our foreign policy in the Middle East. We are in essence securing the loss of more American lives, and losing the battle of hearts and minds of that region. We're totally backwards, and I can't understand why so few are still reluctant to admit it. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3982 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
I think the propensity for violence against Israel is much lower if those planning "bottle rocket" attacks (strange way to refer to 6 killings and 2 kidnappings) know that there are nukes aimed at their spiderholes. Israel is the closest thing to a democracy anywhere in the region. As long as there is anyone in power who is advocating blowing Israel off the map and killing all Jews, I vote to keep Israel armed to the max and finger on the trigger. As US citizens we shouldn't have to decide how Israel should fight aggression after Israel's turned into a pile of ash. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1325 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
hey, Detroit has 6 killings and 2 kidnappings weekly. Can we get $3B from the Feds? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4392 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Karl, as US citizens, we should only be helping Israel if their state is in imminent risk of collapse or total invasion. We should not be unflinchingly funding the IDF to the tune of $3 billion a year, regardless of the risk. I'm tired of this excuse that so many people hate them, so we're justified in this massive subsidy. If anyone believes that Israel is currently, or even in the forseeable future, in imminent danger of an entire collapse or invasion, they are fooling themselves, outright. Even if Iran gets "the bomb" that is their largest threat, and they are one of the few nations in the world to have "the bomb" themselves. Iran's leader may be ratcheting up the rhetoric, but it's to win elections and support. He crazy, but he's crazy like a fox. The US has no interest, besides helping Israel if it's state in danger, in subsidizing the IDF. Again, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 996 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 4.165.60.213 |
Both sides are to blame. Let's create one, democratically elected, secular government, with freedom of religion. We'll have a contest to decide a new name for the entire area, since they'd fight over that too if we didn't. | ||
Bits Member Username: Bits Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2005 |
Those Poor, Innocent Lebanese by Irwin N. Graulich {http://www.MichNews.com) LETTER TO LEBANON Let me get this straight. You allow one of the largest terrorist organizations in the world to set up shop throughout your country. You permit them to completely take over the entire southern third of Lebanon and you claim to have seen nothing. You allow the terrorists to build sophisticated, fortified bunkers and you did not see any heavy equipment building them. You allow the Hezbollah terrorists to move into many of your towns and villages, including the complete takeover of one of the largest neighborhoods in Beirut, where they proceed to build numerous, complex command and control centers...and then you claim ignorance. You allow Hezbollah to store weapons, bombs and rockets in your basements. You turn a blind's eye when they carry arms into your restaurants, stores and buildings, yet you call yourself an "innocent civilian." You watch the Hezbollah parades with hundreds of thousands of participants including children screaming, "Jihad. Death to Israel, Jews and Americans," burning American and Israeli flags, while goose-stepping soldiers with Nazi-like salutes receive your cheers and all of you "innocent civilians" did not see a thing even though you were captured on videotape. All this, while Kofi Annan and much of the UN insist that "we should not believe our lying eyes about the innocent civilians." There are giant posters of the rubenesque terrorist leader, Hasan Nasrallah, all over Lebanon with headlines declaring the imminent destruction of Israel. Yet you choose to elect this terrorist party to your government--and all of the so called "innocent Lebanese" do not know anything about anything. Twenty thousand rockets and launchers are shipped into your country along with other military equipment by plane, truck and ship, and the government industrial complex knew absolutely nothing; and neither did all those "poor, innocent civilians" who are now crying. So you allow the "Devil" into your homes and into your lives; you take the Devil's money, food and medicine; you sleep with the Devil...and get a serious evil disease. And then you blame the Jews, of course! Well, there is no sympathy for the devil...or his helpers! The Lebanese "knowingly allowed (aka aided and abetted)" murderous terrorists to proliferate in their sovereign nation. Like spoiled teenagers, they now refuse to take any responsibility. Of course there are some truly innocent civilians, but there were hundreds of thousands of beautiful German babies and mothers in Dresden and Berlin who were blown to bits. If an attack emanates from your country, the entire country is responsible. That is how life works and it is sometimes unfair. I hate when people lie to my face and expect me to believe their vile fabrications. Does the Muslim world really think that the vast majority of Americans are that foolish? Only the quislings like Larry King, Nic Robertson, Wolf Blitzer, et al will fall for this Joseph Goebbels-style propaganda. The confused left only see "innocent civilians throughout Lebanon." Europe, that moral bastion which gave birth to Nazism, will look at photos of men, women and children in despair, without putting the image into its proper context. Yet countries like Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland, who could not decide whether to support Hitler or Churchill during WWII, can drum up the moral authority to criticize Israel today. And leave it to Vichy, France 2006 headed by Jacques "Petain" Chirac to condemn Israel's response. Seeing television snippets of wounded or dead Lebanese with people sitting on the ground crying and calling them all "innocent civilians" is the same as looking at a photograph of the armpit of Christie Brinkley and saying, "Here is the photo of a supermodel. Isn't she beautiful?" The armpit picture is only a part of the story. When human beings see babies or mothers hurting, no matter what, we feel the pain. If we saw baby pictures of Charles Manson, we would want to cuddle him. We cannot look at photos of so-called "innocent civilians" in a vacuum. It is important for all "moral, decent" human beings to realize that the compassion emotion is similar to the sex emotion. Often times, it interferes with truth, logic and morality. Listen up all you "Innocent Lebanese along with your innocent, Hezbollah supporting government." Do you want to know why your towns, villages and cities are smoldering? Do you want to know why 800,000 people are homeless and 600 are dead? Do you want to know why your infrastructure is devastated? The answer is..."That the Jews are simply not going to pack up their little valises and walk into gas chambers again. The Jews will not be taken from their homes and marched into the Mediterranean Sea by Nazis or Hezbollah-Hamas-Syrian-Iranian , Nazi- like sympathizers. The Jews in Israel or anywhere else are just not going to allow themselves to be shipped away like you dream about every day. Attention all radical Muslims throughout the entire world and Jacques Chirac. The Jews will not be walking into death camps or graves ever again, and if you dare try it, Qana, South Beirut, Tyre, Nabatiyeh, Bint Jbeil, Kounine, Beit Yahoun, Rashaya, Baalbek, Majdel Zoun, Ayt-a-Shab, etc. will all look a whole lot worse than Dresden and Berlin. And Tehran may become hotter than Hiroshima. Attention Lebanon--your country is smoldering because Jews are sick and tired of being murdered. You keep pushing those Torah studying Jews by using terrorism and kidnapping soldiers, and all, yes all of Lebanon will be smoldering. Listen very carefully enemies of Israel, because you are making a giant mistake. I urge any person that will be having dinner with Sayed Hassan Nesrallah, the big brave man hiding in his little rat hole while his fighters are being picked off like little olives on a tree, to make sure his life insurance is fully paid. Mr.hero Nesrallah is just a pimp for Iran, sending out his Hezbollah terrorist hookers to "screw the Jews." The amazing thing is that Iran is not an Arab country. They should not be involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict. They do not border Israel, so there is no Iranian territorial dispute where they claim, like everyone else, that Israel occupies their land. Yet, Ahmadinejad's (pronounced--"a mad dog on Jihad") hatred for Jews and Israel rivals that of Adolf Hitler. It is no wonder that the Iranian president feels this way since Israel is supreme in virtually every area--technically, militarily, scientifically, culturally, morally and religiously. Each attempt by macho Muslim/Arab countries to destroy Israel has been met with a totally devastating, humiliating defeat. Like Saddam, the skinny, little Ahmadinejad (pronounced "a mad dog on Jihad") aspires to be the big hero of the Muslim world. What Ahmadinejad (pronounced "a mad dog on Jihad") does not comprehend,is that Israel will not use a tongue depressor when they capture him and his associates. The truth be told that should Iran dare make one wrong move directly on Israel, then Israel will simply "Beat the Shiite out of them!" ------------------------------ --------------- Irwin N. Graulich is a motivational speaker on morality,ethics, religion and politics. He is also President and CEO of a leading marketing, branding and communications company in New York City. He can be reached atirwin.graulich@verizon.net (Message edited by bits on September 15, 2006) (Message edited by bits on September 15, 2006) | ||
Bits Member Username: Bits Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2005 |
http://www.conceptwizard.com/p ipeline_of_hatred.html |
