  Tarkus Member Username: Tarkus Post Number: 91 Registered: 04-2006 |
I just received a phone call from my brother in Houghton Lake that gas prices there today dropped to $1.89. Why are the Detroit area stations still above $2? Does anyone have any insight as to the difference? | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 116 Registered: 05-2006 |
Hhhmmm. I'd have to see it to believe it. I have a cottage in that area and the gas is usually .10-.20 higher up there. I did notice, however, over Labor Day it was a few cents less up there. I'm going next week. I'll check. (Not that I'm doubting your brother, maybe it was a special promotion or something.) | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 268 Registered: 05-2005 |
2.45 in Charlevoix and I heard the same thing about Houghton Lake I also heard the national average was in the 2.60's so for once we are below it. (Message edited by miss cleo on September 15, 2006) | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 293 Registered: 06-2006 |
The drop in gas prices we are seeing is nothing more than election year maniplulation. The Oil & Gas industry has had a friend in the White House and in both houses of Congress for the past 6 years, and they would like it to stay that way. They don't want voters going to the polls angry over high gas prices and voting for Democrats . They are aware that one of the first things a Democrat-controlled house of Congress will do is launch an investigation into inflated gas prices, and they are taking affirmative steps to avoid such an event. This chart shows the amount of money that the Oil & Gas industry has donated to both Democrats and Republicans over the past 15 years. The cash flow clearly favors Republicans. http://www.opensecrets.org/ind ustries/indus.asp?Ind=E01 The rationale for the manipulation is that enduring a couple of months of lost profits is worth ensuring at least two more years of inflated market prices... And for those of you who would like to dismiss this as a 'conspiracy theory', it isn't. This is just how business works. Companies dontate millions to politicians because they expect to get a return on their investment. The bottom line is, if you are tired of paying nearly three-times as much for gas as you were at the end of the 1990s, then don't fall for this scam. I will admit, in the oil companies' shoes, I would do the same thing. But I'm not on their side of the fence. I'm a consumer...so fuck 'em. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 32 Registered: 08-2006 |
Woodward and Long Lake in Bloomfield Hills (9/15/06) Shell: Regular is at $2.19 Indeed, it's all for election year. Also, usually, during winter, the price of barrel tends to deflate a little. But not this much. Prices went down more than 30% in less than a month. That means it's time to vote! YAY! Democracy! | ||
Tarkus Member Username: Tarkus Post Number: 92 Registered: 04-2006 |
I checked and it's listed $1.89 @M-55 Marathon http://www.gasbuddy.com (Message edited by tarkus on September 15, 2006) (Message edited by tarkus on September 15, 2006) (Message edited by tarkus on September 15, 2006) | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 620 Registered: 12-2005 |
http://www.michigangasprices.c om/ says $1.89 in Houghton Lake. Could be a prank though, I suppose. It's allegedly a Marathon on M-55 across from Big Boy (Message edited by Jimaz on September 15, 2006) | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 33 Registered: 08-2006 |
http://www.detroitgasprices.co m/ this web site is awesome. Have fun looking at the stats that compare national ans state by state prices comapred to MI cheers | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6753 Registered: 12-2003 |
The_jesus, Thanks YOU for bringing this up...after hearing the crowd reaction on the Leno show last night...I knew immediately that was ALL this is. The sheople can be so-o easily manipulated. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 805 Registered: 01-2005 |
Still around $2.80 here in Vegas, and higher over in the People's Republic of California. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4339 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gas prices in Las Vegas stay in Las Vegas. Has Ray1936 settled into his new Nevada homestead yet? jjaba. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 807 Registered: 01-2005 |
Ah, yes, indeed. And that Old English "D" on the garage front stands for much more than just my surname!  | ||
Frank_c Member Username: Frank_c Post Number: 782 Registered: 10-2003 |
3.39 3.29 3.19 | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 621 Registered: 12-2005 |
I posted a request for verification of that Houghton Lake price to the forum at http://www.michigangasprices.c om/ under the Michigan discussion there. I think it's a hoax because the next closest price listed there is $2.06. | ||
Dillpicklesoup Member Username: Dillpicklesoup Post Number: 173 Registered: 05-2006 |
bingo the jesus anyone want to place bets on the price of gas after elections? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 623 Registered: 12-2005 |
Well, now the next closest price in Houghton Lake is $1.99 posted by a different user. It's allegedly a Marathon station at M-55 East Bay. Maybe there's something to it. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2003 |
If you look at this link which has the weekly gas prices going back to 1996 you don't see those Republican loving oil company executives manipulating the gas prices prior to elections. Actually the gas prices increased by some 18-20 cents in the months leading up to 04 election when Bush was running for re-election. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/in ternational/gas1.html ------------------------------ -------- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14 717550/ http://money.howstuffworks.com /gas-price.htm http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshe lf/brochures/gasolinepricespri mer/eia1_2005primerM.html (Message edited by rjk on September 15, 2006) | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 625 Registered: 12-2005 |
Rjk, thanks for the links. That really doesn't surprise me. Although trying to influence elections may be a factor in fixing retail gasoline prices, I think it's only one of many factors in price. What gets me is that whenever there's a sharp price change (up or down), questions about the cause sprout like mushrooms but no credible answers appear. It's no wonder conspiracy theories follow in that kind of climate. For example, if you do a graph of Michigan and Detroit gas prices at http://www.detroitgasprices.co m/ , there was until recently a conspicuously regular weekly price spike. Why that regularity? I've yet to hear even an hypothesis for that. Yet the regularity of it suggests some cause. If there's a benign cause of that regularity, I'd really like to hear it. (Message edited by Jimaz on September 15, 2006) | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 106 Registered: 10-2005 |
Conspiracy theorists you are. Just try to remember back one year ago when gas prices crashed down to $2.15 in November 2005 after being above $3 the whole summer of 2005. You know, that gas price manipulation by all those Republican oil executives prior to the huge election in Nov 2005. Give Me A Break! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I mage:Gas_Prices_Short_Term.png | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 565 Registered: 10-2003 |
The price of crude oils is controlled by commodity markets...read speculation which explains the large swings. Someone says BOO in the Middle East and the price of cude jumps $5. Supply and demand also play a large roll. If everyone reduced their speed to 55mph, took mass transit and drove less then the demand would fall and so would prices. Probably back to about $1.80 to $2.00 a gallon. But the behavior of most people changed little even at $3.00 plus a gallon. Everyone still drove 80mph on the freeway and the buses were still half empty. Gas would have to go to $5.00 a gallon to pry their white knuckles off the streeting wheel! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 627 Registered: 12-2005 |
In the continuing Houghton Lake drama, the $1.89 price has dropped off the board at http://www.michigangasprices.c om/ yet the $1.99 price remains! It's like a horse race.  (Message edited by Jimaz on September 15, 2006) | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 253 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: And for those of you who would like to dismiss this as a 'conspiracy theory', it isn't. This is just how business works. Companies dontate millions to politicians because they expect to get a return on their investment. ______________________________ ___________________ Truer words have not been spoken. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 1312 Registered: 10-2005 |
2.24 on W Grand Blvd tonight in Detroit... | ||
Tarkus Member Username: Tarkus Post Number: 93 Registered: 04-2006 |
Enough of the conspiracy crap. All I want to know is, if anyone does, why is the Houghton Lake area .20 cheaper for gas?? Instead of the Detroit area where terminals are. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4069 Registered: 10-2003 |
Personally I'm cheering for the five-to-six dollar a gallon gas prices. Even when gas was 99 cents the two-car family social/economic arrangement never made economic sense compared to the alternative (ie efficent mass transit) but with higher gas prices the boobeoisie will start thinking about it. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1335 Registered: 06-2004 |
I used to do bookkeeping for some gas station owners. One guy was, well, pretty stupid. To try to gain business he once ran a special by selling gas one cent above cost. It made his street price look good but needless to say he eventually lost his stations. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6766 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thought he'd make it up in volume, huh?! Heh. Listen, it IS an election year, and THIS has been an issue high in the populace mindset. I cannot believe how many people across the economic spectrum are talking about how it hits their pocketbook! (just from my personal sample, but damn, this IS one thing that we all share) They can always alter the equation of distilling petroleum to make more lower grade or higher grade depending on what they choose, to some extent, right? At the moment, diesel is going through the roof, relative to gasoline...hitting the truckers and shipping companies, so we'll inevitably suffer some sort of inflation of any goods that need to be trucked. That'll take some time before it is really obvious, the resistance to increase pricing is pretty strong from a couple directions. They're tipping the balance of pricing towards the consumer gasoline market and lowering the price MORE than the usual summer/fall variance...and the populace is cheering them for it. Same basic wave form move, increased slope of deceleration or deflation of price...lower dip in pricing...makes more happy SUV riders. This way, they don't keep peeling those W the president stickers off their windows. Here's your bread and circuses... | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6767 Registered: 12-2003 |
Maybe today it's petroleum and high-def tv... | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1085 Registered: 02-2005 |
"Enough of the conspiracy crap." Thank you Tarkus. It looks like some folks here don't understand the economics of the oil market very well. At the risk of introducing logic into the discussion, here goes. The commodities' market appears to have picked up the stock market's proclevity to over react to good and bad news. Post-Katrina, there was little good news about oil supply, refinement and consumption. Look at what's happened in the last 4-6 weeks. Gulf coast refineries have reached 95-97% of the pre-Katrina capacity. A major oil field was found in the Gulf. Auto makers took a lot of heat for not offering more efficient vehicles and some (like Honda and Toyota) started offering smaller cars and ramped up hybrid production. A lot of folks started talking about buying these vehicles and forgoing SUVs, vans, etc. (although it remains to be seen if it's real or just talk). Refineries began to switch back to non-summer gas blends, which are cheaper to manufacture and reduce the number of different blends required. Lastly, there was a lot of talk about oil company profits and some legislators threatened price controls and more (maybe jawboning does work). So you have a substantial decline in the world market price of oil as a commodity, talk of a decline in demand when supplies are ramping up, and some cost reductions. Therefore, lower pump prices. All this talk about the US oil companies being able to control the market price of oil is bunk. US oil companies buy less than 15% of oil sold on the world market. Not much control there. As for Houghton Lake pricing, not sure but I've seen the phenomenon here between some small mountain towns in the northern part of the state and Santa Fe. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 271 Registered: 12-2005 |
All of this conspiracy talk is just that, talk. Oil is a commodity and it is traded on the commodity markets, which quickly respond to changes in supply and demand (both rumored and measured) in order to find an equilibrium price and quantity. Because of the reasons enumerated by Jiminnm, demand is down, inventories are up, and since supply is back to pre-Katrina levels and steady, the price has dropped accordingly. | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 275 Registered: 05-2005 |
2.28 in TC today | ||
Ordinary Member Username: Ordinary Post Number: 35 Registered: 06-2006 |
thejesus, gannon, The price is coming down and you guys are still boo-hooing about something that's non-existent. It's the market. Read the posts of jiminnm and mikeg. Maybe there needs to be another refinery built in Michigan. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 194 Registered: 04-2006 |
I have a cabin up in the Houghton Lake area. The gasoline in Roscommon County has been much more affordable than gas in just about any other county. Its generally even cheaper in St. Helen's than in Houghton Lake. I can't figure it out as the nearby counties such as Ogemaw the gas is priced 20 cents a gallon higher. I also can;t figure out why gas is cheaper in Ohio when they have a much higher gas tax than Michigan does. Transport costs? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 275 Registered: 12-2005 |
Ohio state gas tax = $0.28 per gal. Mich state gas tax = $0.19 per gal. +6% state sales tax At current gas prices, the total MI taxes collected on a gallon of gas are about 5 cents per gallon more than Ohio's tax. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 195 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ah HA! Thats what I was missing from my clouded pic... I totally forgot about that dammed douoble tax thing! Thanks Mike, Good work! | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 276 Registered: 12-2005 |
Yay, Michigan! The next time someone tries to argue that Michigan is not a high-tax state, just remind them of this nasty little practice of levying a tax on top of a tax! | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 745 Registered: 11-2003 |
2.16 at Speedway in SCS tonight | ||
D2dyeah Member Username: D2dyeah Post Number: 6 Registered: 09-2005 |
Gas is still 3.45 a gallon for premium here in LA. I'm moving back to Detroit! | ||
Tony_pieroni Member Username: Tony_pieroni Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2006 |
Ordinary: "...another refinery built in Michigan?" I think not. The Sierra Club (of which I've been a member for years, commencing when it was a trail-building, real environmental organization, not a high-priced lobbyist, special interest group) would never permit it. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 277 Registered: 12-2005 |
There has not been a new petroleum refinery built in the US in about 30 years due to the NIMBY factor and groups like the Sierra Club and the EPA. Over those years, the only way refiners were able to keep up with rising gasoline demand was to expand their existing refineries and improve the efficiency of their existing processes. Most refineries have since expanded to their physical limits and are now left with process improvement as their only method for increasing gasoline output. For the past several years, peak summertime demand for gas has exceeded the domestic refiner's production capacity and they have had to import finished gasoline from foreign refineries to make up the shortfall. The main cause of the gas price spike each spring and fall is due to the interruption in refinery production caused when they make the switch from maximizing heating oil production to maximizing gasoline production, and vice versa. Depending on the refining process "recipe" used, they can squeeze more gasoline out of a barrel of oil, but at the expense of making less heating oil. Also during the switchover, they are either beginning or ending the production and distribution of the reformulated gas blends that are required by the EPA in certain markets during the summer. These switchover activities all contribute to a temporary drop in the supply of gas, which causes the price to spike. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6768 Registered: 12-2003 |
How long does gasoline store without added stabilizers? What happens to its volatility over time? What other bad effects might there be on the engine/fuel system with old gas? What are the legal limits a person can store on residential or commercial property? I vaguely remember a story about John Denver getting into trouble for having a huge gasoline storage tank on his property...but that was in Colorado. | ||
Opus Member Username: Opus Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2005 |
Gasoline storage tanks are a nightmare for the environment. I worked for a public entity when the first legislation started coming around in the late 80's and even then a leaking tank would cost upwards of $30,000.00 to have remdeiated. On the "conspiracy theory" part of the equation, there is definite manipulation. Nov 05 elections may have not been big, but they were still elections and therefore the price dropped. Don't bring the independent station owners into this discussion because they are the last cog in the machine of the oil business. It is at the processing level where the real money is being made. Then they tell us that they are losing money on the stations. It all depends on where you chose to place the profit in the process. Right now the refiner makes far more than the retailer, and it has been this way for decades. It doesn't mean that they are not jacking the price, it just means they are jacking the price on performing the refining process and not on the difference between wholesale and retail product sales. Exxon Mobil reported the highest corporate profits in recorded history last quarter. Why?? If the crude is so expensive and they are truly controlled by market forces they should be losing their backside when their raw material costs go through the roof. But instead of eating the rise in cost, they pass it along, with their own little personal bump of say 30% to the refining fees and voila profit up the gazzoo!! | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6772 Registered: 12-2003 |
A fraction of that 30% or so bump is where this market manipulation likely exists. It can be a huge percentage to move the pricing either way, but until the quarterly reports are issued they're not statistically identifiable...of course with the Merlin-accounting being practised in multi-national corporations these days, all they have to do is massage the numbers to spread this data around to muddy the waters. Begs the question of how and why the oil companies would dare show their record profits as we're moving into the election season, IF they are complicit with this administration. Perhaps they had NOWHERE else to hide the money they're making. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 278 Registered: 12-2005 |
According to this Chevron website, The Uniform Fire Code limits the amount of gasoline in residential buildings to the amount "necessary for maintenance purposes and operation of equipment," not to exceed a maximum of 25 gallons. According to Wikipedia (and several other sources), gasoline can be expected to remain "fresh" for at least 60 days after purchase. If it is stored in an airtight container and kept in a cool location away from sunlight and heat sources, it is likely to remain good for up to a year. Adding a fuel stabilizer like Sta-Bil can add another year to its shelf life. Storing gas in a non-air-tight container allows the lighter compounds to vaporize into the atmosphere, reducing the volatility of the remaining gasoline. Heat and time cause the precipitation of gums and varninshes within the stored gas, which if then used in an engine, can cause expensive damage to the fuel delivery system. | ||
Ordinary Member Username: Ordinary Post Number: 36 Registered: 06-2006 |
Tony_pieroni, You're probably right but do you think that's a good thing? Ordinary | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 197 Registered: 04-2006 |
$1.95 at the BP in Ypsi on Testile | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6776 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Mikeg! So our petroleum-slavemaster's leash is only sixty days long in general, a year if we do it right. But they've made it illegal to do anything more than a week or two's worth about it... Gotcha! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 631 Registered: 12-2005 |
Here's a response about the Houghton Lake price from the Michigan discussion forum at http://www.michigangasprices.c om/ . Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus but when he leaves, he takes your presents with him.  (Message edited by Jimaz on September 17, 2006) | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4348 Registered: 11-2003 |
News flash. jjaba got gas for less than $2.00. Taco Bell. jjaba, on the Westside. LOL. | ||
Tony_pieroni Member Username: Tony_pieroni Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2006 |
Ordinary: No, it's not a good thing. One of our big balance of payments problems is that not only does the U S import about 60% of the crude oil we use, but a significant amount of refined products...gasoline etc... manufactured overseas, and sold to us at prices higher than if the products were refined here. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 200 Registered: 04-2006 |
I agree with Tony low oil prices will only further our dependance on oil. We are already gluttons when it comes to this. We need to use this as an opportunity to raise the gas tax to help fund projects that will help to preserve the crumbling roads, build additional non-motorized infrastructure (sidewalks, bike paths, locking facilities) and sink additional funds into improving public transportation for those who can't or should not drive. We need to increase this tax and buy smaller fuel efficient cars. Since smaller cars use less fuel, we are going to need to raise the tax to help pay for getting all of the gas hogs off the roadway. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6790 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm saying we take this newfound extra money and invest it in storage tanks that will keep a couple year's worth of the stuff. Then fill them ONLY when it's election season. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 121 Registered: 05-2006 |
the Houghton Lake gas prices were real http://www.houghtonlakeresorte r.com/site/news.cfm?brd=2053 | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2310 Registered: 11-2003 |
With all of this talk about prices and how they are set...has anyone considered the fact that with the economy cooling down nationwide (and Michigan even moreso) that maybe the gas companies have resorted to lowering the cost of their product due to lack of demand? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 657 Registered: 12-2005 |
Yes, that goes without saying, I think. However, there's a story regarding corruption in the Interior Department breaking now. NYT. I'm off to study it. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 359 Registered: 05-2005 |
All of the planet-killing SUV-heads couldn't be happier, two-bucks-a-gallon is just around the corner. Fill'er up! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 658 Registered: 12-2005 |
The NYT story is on the webpage at http://www.nytimes.com/pages/b usiness/index.html, titled "Suits Say U.S. Impeded Audits for Oil Leases." I have the complete text but I guess they want others to register for the rest of the story. | ||
Yupislyr Member Username: Yupislyr Post Number: 149 Registered: 07-2004 |
Yeah, I like the elections conspiracy theory. So the U.S. companies have so much pull that it's driving down the price in Windsor too? The only election we have coming up is for city council. Hah |
