  Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 164 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.61.16.59 |
I was thinking about the next ten years and if by then we have a large light rail system. With possible lines being Jefferson, Michigan, Gratiot, and Woodward running into downtown. Would it be feasible to have the light rail lines turn into subways when they enter downtown and New Center? With the hubs at the Rosa Parks Transit Center and Campus Martius being the hubs? | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 206 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.246.214.35 |
Yeah, this will happen when steam locomotives, blimps, autogyros and seagoing galleys rule the transportation world again. Sorry Rbetsport, this isn't going to happen; not in ten or twenty years and maybe never. It has been said before on so many threads on the forum that when Detroit has responsible political leadership, crime under control, and realistic labor leaders it may be possible to consider light rail. When will those conditions be met? Ten, twenty years? It hasn't been the case in the last forty, so don't get excited for a while. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 207 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.246.214.35 |
Yeah, this will happen when steam locomotives, blimps, autogyros and seagoing galleys rule the transportation world again. Sorry Rbetsport, this isn't going to happen; not in ten or twenty years and maybe never. It has been said before on so many threads on the forum that when Detroit has responsible political leadership, crime under control, and realistic labor leaders it may be possible to consider light rail. When will those conditions be met? Ten, twenty years? It hasn't been the case in the last forty, so don't get excited for a while. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4292 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.236.229.212 |
jjaba was just in Chicago. METRA has about 12 lines from suburbs, plus the South Shore RR to South Bend. The "L" is packed from all reaches of the City of Chicago, and each station anchors a neighborhood in some fashion. The Chicago Loop is a solid viblrant city center, made possible with transit. METRA has 4 stations. Additionally, there are water taxis, water ferry boats, boat tours, cabs, shuttles, open double decker buses, and underground pedways. 28 miles of bike paths line the Lake Michigan shores in Chicago. Chicago is putting in express "L" service to 2 airports complementing the existing locals, from State and Madison Sts. Shit, even Minneapolis now has light rail from downtown to the Mall of America and a train at their airport. Detroit has dropped the ball. jjaba on the Westside. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 208 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.246.214.35 |
As a follow up to my comments on crime being one reason Detroit will not get a light rail system, I was at the National Violent crime meeting last week in Washington and the mayor and police commissioner were there as well. Keep them home and save the city more bad press. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1329 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Dreamers... Mass transit will only work if there's a need for it. It won't fuel any business or economic revival of Metro Detroit. Chicago is now experiencing another skyscraper building boom. There's nothing like that in Detroit. Just a little casino development and hopes for more construction. One thing that's clearly evident in the CBD is an almost total lack of traffic, especially out near Tiger Stadium. That's one of the best economic barometers. That lack of traffic will mirror any ridership of any mass transit. And light rail? That'll never happen. All that empty/vacant real estate--so little business. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4294 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.236.229.212 |
Livernoisyard tells it like it tis. Detroit is all about sprawl. Comerica patrons are from townships now, 50 miles from the ballpark. Tis easy to drive there and find a meter on the streets. The townships prefer their $30 lots. jjaba. | ||
Missnmich Member Username: Missnmich Post Number: 541 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.32.180.75 |
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Jjaba and RiverRat. A little fantasy never hurts every once in a while. However, I'm not going to play unless a fantasy light rail is put down my favorite diagonal: Grand River! | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1198 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.251.28 |
Detroit embraced the automobile, its industry, and the car culture that goes with it. What you have now is the payoff. How do you like it? It's not going to change. Hey, you want one of those vibrant city lifestyles with high-density mixed use, brownstones, walkable neighborhoods with lots of corner taverns, grocery stores, and street-level retail... AND an elevated rail or subway system? Move to Chicago or NYC. That's where they do that sort of thing. Not here. We do the sprawl thing here. And we continue to worship the car. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4326 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
You all mean to tell me that cities far more sprawled, less populous, more car-oriented, and some even less centralized (i.e. Houston, Phoenix in 2008...), at that, than Detroit have light rail lines, and Detroit will never? Please. Seriously, where are you guys coming up with this? As limited as Detroit's current mass transit is (SMART and DDOT) some other cities wish they had the ridership these two have. If smaller, more sprawled, more car-oriented cities can support light rail lines, why can't Detroit. Detroit won't have light rail if these attitudes prevade that the grass is always greener on the other side. | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 515 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 24.192.148.150 |
Actually the real reason we do not have light rail yet is all politics.. I have mention this in the past but the DPM was part of money president ford's plan to make mass transit to work in Detroit.. Politics again.. We do not have ANY strong political allies for a mass transit system in michigan.. Non of them will stand on the issue and push it.. They just use it for sound bits... Now that being said.. How is it Boston got the Big Dig? Something that cost WELL over 5x the amount it would be to build a subway system in Detroit.. Political power is the answer.. The feds (and us Joe Tax Payer) paid through the ass for that project.. | ||
Erichp77 Member Username: Erichp77 Post Number: 203 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.82.125 |
"Detroit embraced the automobile, its industry, and the car culture that goes with it. " YUP!!! Michigan's economy says it all. GO BLUE!!! | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 21 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.241.238.29 |
Detroit is by far the largest metro area in the nation without any form of fixed-route (i.e., not just buses) mass transit... and no, the People Mover doesn't count! That is a damn, damn shame. Fundamentally, the problem is lack of cohesion. Who will be the "first mover" with money and plans for a transit network, when working together has traditionally proven so difficult? Who pays for the upkeep of the system, assuming (quite reasonably) that ridership fees won't come close to covering expenses for many years, if ever? It'd be very difficult to get people moving without federal funding. And in today's budget environment - post-Big Dig, and with other cities going for big infrastructure grants (Seattle wants to sink a quake-unsafe viaduct underground; Las Vegas wants a new airport, etc.) - I can't imagine a Detroit regional transit network would be much of a priority. HOWEVER, I do have somewhat more hope if Detroit can tie a transit project into an element of "national core infrastructure," in this case probably Metro airport along with Willow Run airport (assuming that facility is upgraded to handle more cargo), with a spur extending to Ann Arbor. If something like that gets built - and is a success - it would finally give transit planners something tangible to point at. And then other parts of a wider system might get planned, or even built. That's not a short-term ambition, but, we'll see. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1303 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.205.235 |
Maybe it's been said but that doesn't make it true. None of those are prerequisites to having light rail. Especially a starter light rail line, which with any luck will come out of the Ann Arbor-Detroit transit line or some other starter Woodward line, sometime in the next 5 years or so. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4332 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Doug is exactly right. There are cities as corrupt as Detroit if not more (i.e. Chicago, San Diego...), crime-ridden as Detroit (i.e. Atlanta, NO, Dallas...), and just as unionized (i.e. choose a city) as Detroit with light rail. I keep seeing these ridiculous excuses, but that's all they are. The problem isn't anything wrong with crime, or corruption, or sprawl, it's with leaders not brave enough to DEMAND rail transit as a right. It's about metro leaders too stubborn to work with others. It's about every Park, Field, and Hill thinking that the metro revolves soley around them. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4295 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.236.229.212 |
Don't forget E. St. Louis, and it has light rail to St. Louis, including to the airport and the ballpark. jjaba. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 210 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.246.214.35 |
------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- quote: It has been said before on so many threads on the forum that when Detroit has responsible political leadership, crime under control, and realistic labor leaders it may be possible to consider light rail. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- Yup, that's what I said; it's my story and I'm sticking to it. 1. Responsible Political Leadership. The electorate of Detroit and Michigan continue to send real lightweights to Washington. {Exception-Carl Levin, well respected and competent.} I won't list them because we all know who they are. If your political base in Washington is impotent, you don't get federal $$$. That is why we don't get federal $$$. 2. Crime. The police, judges, and juries, and the entire legal system have doomed Detroit to an extent that any attempt to counter the crime aspect is ludicrous. 3. Union Leadership. So sorry to be the one who has to again state the obvious. The union mentality of the local workforce coupled with the inability of the union leadership to understand that wages, benefits and work rules have to be realistic to the national market to rebuild this area continues to mire the city in joblessness. When will we stop blaming "others" and recognize that we are the problem. We need to elect competent leaders, demand uncompromising courts, and work to lift ourselves out of our decline. river rat says it as it is | ||
Dtrain Member Username: Dtrain Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.108.76.88 |
While some of us are in fantasyland I'd like to propose that all lightrail roads lead to MCS requiring a complete and historically correct renovation of the facility. This after Maroun is forced to sell it for $1 to a government agency in the interest of national security. Federal funds then are used to build the rail and restore the depot. Yeah, that's my fantasy. Let me dream about it at least. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1102 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
The best way to prove that we need more mass transit is to use what we have. Look at the Foxtown Tigers train, it sold out in a matter of hours. People complain about SMART and DDOT, if the busses are full the powers that be will be forced to admit that they need to do something. And I know a bus and a train is big difference, but our leaders do not see it that was. They see that people are not using the mass transit we have, so why do we need more. Yes, new politicians would help change that, but do you honestly believe the alternatives are going to care any more about mass transit. Dick DeVos only cares about how much he can cut in taxes to benefit his buddies in business. Michael Bouchard is also compaigning on less waste in Congress, and do you think a Republican from Oakland County is going to care two licks about mass transit in the city? The bright spot is that there are people like in the Ann Arbor area that are trying to bring commuter trains to our area despite the idiot politicians who say it can't be done. I know DDOT has its problems, but SMART is well run with the resounces they have. I rode it yesterday and both busses were on time, clean, and the drivers were very friendly and knowledgable about the route detours around the jazz fest. My biggest grip is that there are no route maps or info at the bus stops like there are in other major cities. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 287 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.93.104 |
Where the hell is trainman?????? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 64 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.41.154.161 |
SMART is ok, I tried using them for a week, mostly on time, nice buses, safe, clean, polite drivers. Only issue I had was that the routes were not frequent enough. If you were running late for the 9 am bus, you had to wait an hour and ten minutes for the next one. I'd like to see them run every half hour for peak times, morning evening rush hours. I think it's only a matter of time before more people get fed up with the gas prices and start using SMART and DDOT more. I was pleasantly surprised last month that my fellow east side suburanites were not as dumb as the Livonia voters that voted smart out of their city. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1105 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Cambrian, I agree that is an issue with SMART, but if more people ride the bus, they will put increase the frequency. If there are half empty busses on each route, then things stay the same. Having each bus full will increase the frequency. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 602 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.23.154 |
Ron wrote, "Where the hell is trainman??????" Cryogenically frozen until he gets word that SMART will be on the ballot again. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 185 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 12.45.2.184 |
Detroit just needs more representation in D.C. Levin is becoming a powerful man the longer he stays in office. Mass transit is coming. Detroit already has the infrustructure in place (i.e. rail, large wide streets, population, sprawl, central city)soon very soon !313 | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 517 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 24.192.148.150 |
What are you basing this on Detroit313? Just curious if you had some insight we do not have.. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1333 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Any thread on DY about light rail/rapid transit for Detroit is just another pot-smoking circle on That '70s Show. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on September 03, 2006) | ||
Titancub Member Username: Titancub Post Number: 9 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.134.218.45 |
Considering the state of the state, its apalling that we are still a donor state when it comes to taxes. Light rail dollars (or at least highways maintenance bucks) could be in pocket if our esteemed sens and reps in DC would get us to at least breakeven. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1110 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.60.105.164 |
I found it interesting that in this article about the 8 Mile/Woodward bridge rehad, they mention how the state is giving the structure the capacity for light rail. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060904/M ETRO/609040350 | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 177 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232 |
The Detroit area is DOA without an efficient mass transit system. It's amazing how much clout the region has lost, yet the only ones who realize it are the ones trying to get out. DC built a transit system when it was still known for being "dangerous" and "corrupt"... It was the best thing to happen to that place in a long time. | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.61.16.59 |
I think the state is actually preparing for a transit system. All of the signs are there. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1903 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.62.117 |
Yes, because Chicago, NYC and all of the other major cities are s-o-o-o far ahead of Detroit in these categories. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1334 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Detroit is DOA without a radical departure in its entitlement mindset. It needs an educated populace with employable work skills. In that, Detroit doesn't even come close. Ergo, businesses will look elsewhere. What's the sense in getting somewhere a bit faster than presently when there's little reason to go anywhere for those over 200,000 currently unemployed and rising? I heard on Friday that yet another manufacturing staffing company closed their brand-new (Troy) branch, now leaving just one running in Livonia and another in Grand Rapids. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1904 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.62.117 |
Yes, and if you were to cut down on your recreational drug use, you would have already noticed that the need has existed for years. A need that is already expressed by the number of people using mass transit. In a typical weekday, 169,300 people ride either D-DOT or SMART. That puts us ahead of cities like Houston and Dallas (who aleady have light-rail). Oh, and we're also ahead of Cleveland, Pheonix and a half dozen or so other major cities in terms of mass-transit ridership. And that's without counting either the Tigers Train or DPM as mass transit. The Woodward route already has enough riders to make light-rail cost-effective. All of this is on top of the fact that ridership historically goes up when a community makes the switch from buses to light-rail. SOURCES: http://www.apta.com/research/s tats/ridership/riderep/documen ts/06q1bus.pdf http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060726/M ETRO05/607260343/1016 http://www.ridemetro.org/ http://www.dart.org/
If you think Detroit has embraced the car culture and suburban sprawl, all I can say is that you haven't seen didly-squat until you've set foot in Los Angeles. But even they have managed to build a mass-transit system that includes light-rail. http://www.mta.net/default.asp
Yes, because links to news articles, academic studies and other credible sources are frequently used in pot-smoking circles. This, of course, explains the fact why those who argue in favor of mass-transit and light-rail usually cite their sources. Whereas the stoners/losers/whiners who think it'll never happen simply throw their opinions around and hope that no one will ever challenge them with something as ridiculous as facts or logic. Really, guys, it's time to grow up. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1747 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.34 |
Well yes they are far ahead of Detroit Fremeneck; isn't that obvious? Chicago is a vibrant active city.And the vibrancy extends out to the neighborhoods and into the burbs.In Detroit within 5-10 minutes of leaving DT it is to put it bluntly moribund. Who the hell is gonna ride this thing? And where are they gonna ride to?.....Troy, Southfield, Dearborn,Warren, Sterling Heights........Detroit? This area has no central pulse anymore.Detroit is not the economic engine or center of the area.The reason being as River rat and LY to a degree have stated crappy leadership, intractable crime control and unrealistic unions. So to think that somehow(unless there is some drastic mind boggling changes) there will be any form of mass transit into the city anytime in the next 25 years is a fantasy ans nothing more. Fury made an intersting point about how we have embraced the auto.I say what is so bad about that? The auto industry created the middle class.It seems ironic to me that (at least here) there is so much venom against the auto.Perhaps you all should just accept this as how things are here. Reducing crime is the biggest obstacle to anything and so far.....not so much. As a postscript I do live where there is good mass transit(AA) so I am not opposed just being realistic. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1906 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.62.117 |
The same people who are riding it now. Plus some others.
Yes.
L.A. doesn't have a central pulse anymore either. That didn't stop them from building a successful mass-transit system; one that includes light-rail.
We don't need "drastic mind boggling changes". Just a willingness to look at how other cities operate. And less recreational drug use.
Every other major city has already discovered that cars and mass transit can coexist. It's time that folks around here learn the same lesson. This may be shocking news, but they actually have cars in Chicago. And mass transit. Imagine that! http://www.automotive.com/car- dealers/33/illinois/cook/chica go/ http://www.transitchicago.com/
Yes, because Chicago, NYC, LA and Washington, DC are all crime-free. Why didn't I realize that earlier???
Try being drug-free for a full week and then we can discuss "realistic". | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1748 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.34 |
Firstly fuck you asshole regarding the drug comments.Next the proof is in the evidence Nyc, Chicago both have significantly lower crime rates than Detroit everyone knows this it is old news. Next those are places with vibrant center cities.People go into dt Chicago to work, they go into Nyc to work.......no so much in Detroit. Back to square one.Reduce crime and watch what happens until then keep making idiotic personal insults while dps schools close and the population continues to shrink. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2938 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.74.4.205 |
Yeah they have lower crime rates HOWEVER their crime is MUCH higher in numbers but the rates are lower since they have a SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER population... So of course proportionately they will seem low. Yall make it seem as if crime just barely exists in these other, better areas. Or do you all prefer to let other people do your thinking for you? Isnt ststistics a beautiful thing? Like my stats teacher said, you can make number look however you want with stats. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1907 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.62.117 |
Hey, if there's another reason for you not knowing what's going on, I'm willing to listen. I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinions - just not their own facts. You're inventing facts left and right. That or you haven't discovered the wonders of Google.
I'm all in favor of reducing crime. I'm just saying that there's no correlation between crime and whether or not mass-transit works. Detroit already has 12.4% more mass transit riders on a daily basis than Dallas does. (Links to prove it: cited above). Dallas already has light-rail. In spite of that, you argue that Detroit won't be able to attract enough riders to support a light-rail system. What's next? Are you going to argue that Detroit's crime problems will prevent it from hosting Super Bowl XL? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1336 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Still, it boils down to Detroit's entitlement mentality: Other cities largely build their systems with their own money and fund it themselves. Detroit doesn't have much ridership for SMART and DDoT. Who's going to pay for it? Other taxpayers throughout the US? And if so, why should they be willing to waste money on Detroit? Who will fund the operating costs of an expensive system? Local taxpayers? They may begrudgingly support a small-to-medium sized bus system. But does anybody really expect that local taxpayers will support a rapid-transit system, either by willingly paying its high subsidies or even ever ride it. I doubt it. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1908 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.62.117 |
Wow! If only Detroit had as much ridership as other cities who already have light-rail. Nice to see you're paying attention, LY. Please join Citylover in the "Detroit will never host Super Bowl XL" corner.
Nice try. Light rail has a lower operating cost than a conventional bus system. Next? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1749 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.127 |
The last laugh is on you since you have turned this into a personal insult and demeaning of others thread freewhateverthefuckyouare. There is no mass transit in Detroit as one would find in other cities.And there is no indication that there will be__________EVER. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1909 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.215.16.248 |
Citylover: I'm sorry that you find logic and reason to be "a personal insult and demeaning." Logic = Detroit currently has more people riding its mass transit system than Dallas. Dallas has enough people riding its mass transit system to support light rail. Therefore, Detroit has enough riding its mass transit system to support mass transit. Logic. Reason. Evidence. Trust me, they aren't as scary as you think they are. I hope, for your sake, that you manage to overcome your phobia. Until then, I wish you the best of luck in finding a place that is completely devoid of logic. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1750 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.127 |
Logic? spare me. Now you are just attempting to lord your self imposed superior intellect.......that don't change the facts man there aint no mass transit like the pie in the sky shit you all are pining away for and there is nothing of any significance to indicate there will be anytime sooon or not so soon....... Again I ask who the hell is gonna ride? The guy working in Sterling Heights that lives in Fraser? The Dearborn school teacher that lives in Dearborn? Who? If mass transit is in such demand why does it suck so bad in the tri county area? It does not suck like that here in AA.Busses run every 20 min at day and every hr night and week ends.........But people actually ride the motherfucker......not so much where you are. So continue with your patronizing, it is amusing.The facts i.e. the evidence you know the shit you see with your own eyes pretty much tell the story where the whimsical dreams of mass transit are concerned in Wayne co and environs. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1912 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.215.16.248 |
I didn't impose logic. A man by the name of Artistotle came up with it; based, of course, on earlier work by Socrates.
I wouldn't characterise light rail as "pie in the sky".
Just the number of people who are already riding mass transit. But then again, what else do you need?
The same people who currently ride. Except it won't cost as much to operate a light rail system along those routes with a sufficient volume of riders (e.g., along Woodward).
Mostly, it sucks because SMART and D-DOT aren't allowed to share resources (thank you Governor Engler and the Republican-controlled Michigan Legislature). All of this is made worse, however, by folks who would rather randomnly invent their own facts than simply take a rational look at the way things are and the way they could be.
I'm glad I amuse you. There's no extra charge for the entertainment. One day, however, I hope you see it for what it's meant to be - an education.
You might want go to Websters.com and look up the word "whimsical". It doesn't mean what you think it means.
Nothing in any of my posts comes close to that definition. My posts are based on logic, evidence and reason (i.e., that stuff that Socrates and Artistotle talked about). | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1751 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.127 |
No your shit is based on your vision and stats that don't seem to be supported by the public at large. If that were the case(public support) there would be the kind of mass transit you seem to believe is needed here.............where the fuck is it? It has only been about 50... no it has been 50 years since Detroit had mass transit. Are you gonna try to tell anyone with one fucking ounce of brain power that the Detroit of today is suited for that kind of mass transit? Instead of cute little comebacks give me some evidence.........where o where o where are these riders you talk of? Why don't I read about them in the newspapers? Why don't I see it on t.v. ? Why do I not see any thing that tells me people want this? You have pulled your cute shit long enuff who is gonna ride? Btw I would certainly call these idea's whimsical i.e. fanciful as in your provided definition_ Enough of the bullshit show me where any significant number of people in Wayne Oakland or Macomb co's are demanding mass transit....... | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1112 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
This may be old news to some, but it is nonetheless relevant to what we are talking about. http://www.mlui.org/transporta tion/fullarticle.asp?fileid=17 081 | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 67 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.41.154.161 |
Livernois yard, Don't kid your self on people in this area not having employable skills. When a company leaves this area and moves production to Asia or down south, it has nothing to do with knowledge base and everything to do with greeaady executives not wanting to cut into their oppulent bonus packages to pay some one a living wage. We have way more universities and colleges in this area then down south or Mexico. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1113 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.60.105.164 |
L yard is half correct, but so are you Cambrian. Yes, lots of the manufacturing jobs that have left MI are due to the companies simply trying to make the same product for less. It is simply due to dollars and cents. BUT now the jobs of the future that are being attracted need to have a highly educated workforce. This is something that is attainable in MI due to our wonderful education system we have here. But people need to be able to afford to go to our colleges and universities, which in many cases in not happening due to state aid being cut for so many years to our university system, forcing them to raise tuition. There are also way to many people in our state that do not value the educational opportuinites they are given, or have no chance due to lack of parents seeing education as important. This is where L yard is correct. There are people with employable skills in MI, they just are not going to be paid a lot of money to do those skills, where in the past they could earn enough with those skills to be part of the middle class. Jobs that once paid $23 a hour will now be paid $8-$10 an hour. Is it right? We can debate that for hours, but it is what is happening. Either work for that or we'll go find someone else who will. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1914 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.207.94 |
They're mostly on buses. That's why the grown-ups around here call them "riders".
It shows up in the newspapers every so often. Quite frankly, I suprised at how often it shows up. Normally, a story like - 169,300 people rode the bus today, which is the same number who rode it yesterday... and the day before that... and the day before that... and the day before that... and the day before that... and the day before that... well, stories like that aren't often considered "newsworthy". Still, they show up. You'll find them linked above, along with the rest of my sources.
Have you tried paying attention? Or looking at the sources that I provided links to? Just a suggestion.
Awww.... You think my shit is cute. Quite frankly, I'm flattered. Because when I want to know what constitutes "cute" the first thing I think about is, "Where's the nearest nitwit who does more complaining than he does reading?" You are truly the "Arbiter of Cuteness". So, thank you.
Have you tried looking at the ridership numbers? I'm just saying because when I want to know how many people are interested in mass transit, that's where I usually go. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4344 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Fnemecek, Don't even bother. Really. Anyone that believes that a city and metro the size of Detroit couldn't support a light rail system is living in the fantasy world they acuse others of living in. Phoenix can have a light rail line and Detroit can't?! HA! | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1915 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.207.94 |
Yeah, I know. Although it is kind of fun to try. | ||
Planner_727 Member Username: Planner_727 Post Number: 38 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 71.65.11.160 |
Not intending to thread-jack, but this article "Woodward bridge set for rehab" (Detroit News, 9/04/06) http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060904/METRO/609040350 ... outlining the ground-breaking for the Woodward/8Mile Bridge described the project as: "The bridge itself will stay, but work will begin Tuesday to shore up the span, upgrade its surface, add the capacity for a light rail system, and more importantly, make aesthetic improvements to the historic structure whose ragged appearance has plagued Detroit and Ferndale for years." Does anyone know what this means? I examined the MDOT site; the brochure for the project has no mention of this. Maybe 10 years off is realistic... although this is the first major fix of the bridge in 50 years. SO, 50 years is realistic! (Message edited by Planner_727 on September 04, 2006) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1114 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.60.105.164 |
I cited that article from the Detroit News above in another thread and noticed that this morning also. Very interesting, but that is the only mention of it anywhere. Wonder where you could find out more info on that? (Message edited by bob on September 04, 2006) | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1916 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.207.94 |
Planner_727: I don't know the details for certain. However, as I look at the photo from that article, it's clear that there wouldn't be any room for any kind of a light rail system on the bridge. Heck, there's not really even much room for a pedestrian. Anyway, they'll probably add something near the middle of the bridge that will give them room to add a light rail track in the future. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1338 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Sheesh! Phoenix has nearly 2 million residents compared to Detroit's 836,000. According to Forbes, Phoenix is the second hottest job source in the country. New Orleans is second from the bottom, and Detroit is dead last, all by itself. Yeh! We need rapid transit--to get out of Dodge, pronto. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1752 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.15 |
So when these studies say they have difficulty predicting ridership Lmich and Fremeneck you say what..........? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1339 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Yawn! "Normally, a story like - 169,300 people rode the bus today, which is the same number who rode it yesterday..." So, did 169,300 people ride the bus one way? Or did 84,650 (169,300/2) ride the bus round trip? I suspect the latter because I tend to suspect proponets of expensive boondoggles tend to misrepresent (a euphemism for lying) their positions. In any event, 85K or 170K riders is but very small peanuts for a metropolitan area of 5 million, or over half the population of the entire state of Michigan. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1262 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.136.147.198 |
all I know is that it sure was nice to walk out of the baggage claim at Portland, OR International Airport this past weekend and have this waiting for me (versus the $80 parking bill I received after walking out of the baggage claim at Detroit Metro this evening) seriously, less that 100 yards from where I got my bag off the conveyer  ok, no volcanos here...  over the Willamette  and making the switch to the bus at the transit center on SW 5th  I fully understand that Detroit is, and will never be Portland, and visa-versa, but it was refreshing and inspiring | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4345 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Livernoisyard, Don't be foolish. Phoenix Metro is 3.9 million in population, and Detroit Metro 5.4 million. And, it's silly you don't take city size, into account. Detroit has 880,000 in an area of 139 square miles. Phoenix has 1.46 million in an area 475 square miles, almost 3.5 times more expansive than Detroit's borders. If you're not going to take that into account, there is nothing left to discuss. What's it with people taking central city populations as the only thing that matters? Detroit is the bigger urban area, even with Phoenix's explosive growth. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1918 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.207.94 |
I say you're looking at the wrong studies. The only study I've seen that has said they had difficulty predicting ridership was the Ann Arbor to Detroit Rapid Transit Study. (There currently isn't a public transit between the two cities so they have to make a lot of assumptions.) Everything that I've referred to in this thread was about replacing existing buses with a far more efficient light rail system. We have a better idea of how many people will use that such a system because of how many are currently using it. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1919 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.207.94 |
Livernoisyard: 169,300 per day might not sound like a lot but it's more than Dallas gets (148,00 per day). Since 148K is enough to support a light rail system in Dallas, the fact that we already have more than that would indicate that Detroit already has enough ridership to support a light rail component to its mass transit system - which is the point of this entire thread. Thank you for paying attention. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1340 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I flew my Cessna into Dallas a couple times during 1979 and was amazed at its sprawl. It was difficult to pick out the general-aviation airport I was radio-navigating toward (and my two fuel guages were near E for my first time). Dallas/Fort Worth would put probably any other US city to shame (according to your new-urbanist mindset) in that category. I wouldn't expect many there to be taking public transportation on account of its extremely wealthy population, to boot. I like how you cherry pick your cities of comparison, not. And again, people need a reason to use public or private transportation. Detroit is a slowly dying city from a jobs perspective. Its population is emptying out even faster than was projected just a few years ago. For one, Ford has been forced to step up its downsizing by about two/three years ahead of its recently announced schedule. And the other local shoes haven't dropped yet. Just where is this ridership hiding. It's not pent up as you are implying is out there. And gas prices are again approaching $2.50 to $2.70 across the country now that the summer is ending. Again another coffin nail in some dreamer's doomsday reckoning. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1342 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
" Detroit has 880,000 in an area of 139 square miles." Again a "Rip van Winkle" dreaming in the past. Wake up! Detroit's population isn't 880K any longer, Toto. Unlike others on DY, I don't make things up (or dream) as I go along... If you can't handle the truth, take it up with the AP or WJR news. Detroit Population Continues To Drop TUESDAY, August 15, 2006 DETROIT - Following decades of white flight from Detroit, blacks are following suit. The U.S. Census said today that the city's white population dropped 14 percent and the black population seven percent between 2000 and 2005. Michigan's population rose 2% to 9.9 (M) million. Detroit's overall population fell seven percent to 836-thousand in the new estimates. Since peaking at 1.8 (M) million in the 1950 Census, Detroit's population has dropped 55 percent. The Associated Press has contributed to this report By Ken Rogulski - WJR News | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4346 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
That's the ACS, which has said itself in that it's much better used to see demographic changes, than census estimates. It only counts household populations, and doesn't calculate institutionalized populations like college dormitories, prisons, and other group quarters, PLUS even without that fact there is a margin of error of 16,000. If you want an more realistic estimate use the Census Bureau's 2005 number, or the SEMCOG number. Detroit could fall another 100,000 and it still wouldn't negate the fact that the area could support a light rail system. Detroit could fall even further than 100,000 and STILL be denser than any of the sunbelt sprawlers. Seriously, you really don't want to start arguing numbers. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 05, 2006) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1115 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.42.98.224 |
Again, here is the article that discusses that they are working on a new model to predict ridership on AA to Detroit transit http://www.mlui.org/transporta tion/fullarticle.asp?fileid=17 081 | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1920 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.215.246.108 |
Okay, so once upon a time, we had something on the Forum called "Skippers Rule". Simply put it meant, "I'll believe it when I see it." Now we have the "Livernoisyard/Citylover Rule: Even after I see it, it's confirmed by a half dozen reliable sources and there's no evidence to contradict it, I still won't believe it." I mean, did either of you guys ever work for the Iraqi Ministry of Propaganda? You know the guys who were denying the very existence of an American invasion, even as the tanks were rolling toward Baghdad? All of this and yet you get yourselves in a tiff when folks think you're on drugs. Truly priceless. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1753 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.222 |
sounds about right we will believe it when we see it | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1723 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Question for Citylover, Livernoisyard, or anyone else who shares their general sentiment re: transit in Detroit: You maintain that rail transit will not work in Detroit because, unlike Chicago or New York, it is not a "vibrant" city. What did cities like Chicago and New York do in order to *remain* vibrant cities, while Detroit declined? What I'm getting at, is you folks have your causes and effects all screwed up. | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 582 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 71.159.22.100 |
I'm not sure if you all know this, but the state's making room for a lightrail track/lane/whatever on the new-to-construction M1/M102 bridge. Courtesy: WWJ | ||
Planner_727 Member Username: Planner_727 Post Number: 40 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 69.87.150.106 |
Yeah, see the above reference Detroit News Article. The real quesiton is: What does that mean!?@ | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1120 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Rob Marosi is the head of MDOT in Metro Detroit, he would probably be the guy with the answer. Or maybe the TRU people are on it already. Maybe it was a compromise with the Ferndale people who were pushing to demolish the whole structure and put in a traditional intersection. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1724 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
You know what I heard? The reconstructed bridge at 8-Mile and Woodward will be designed to support light rail. Does anyone know what this means? | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1921 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.236.165.162 |
For starters, Dan, it means that the folks at M-DOT are pretty confident that light rail will be coming through the area. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1725 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I was just being an ass. But of course, you knew that. :-) | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1922 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.236.165.162 |
Of course. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1310 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.205.235 |
Danindc tells it like it is. Getting good transit won't necessarily be a quick fix for all of Detroit's problems, but it is necessary to stop and potentially reverse the continued damaging decentralization of the region. This can have good side effects on crime and other problems. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1755 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.191 |
Affect crime how exactly? I don't get the connection.I do know what will affect crime though; more cops. Take the money you all want to fund mass transit and put it into law enforcement and watch what crime reduction will do to revitalize a city. Here is a concrete example: Someone posted here and it was on the news about Chandler park being out of control.Drug deals in the open, prostitutes, loud music etc, etc. The Wayne co Sheriff stepped up patrol in a major way and the results were quick and obvious.The people that lived in the area were ecstatic.The only regret they had was that the shitheads that were crapping all over their area had likely moved on to someone elses and they found that disturbing. So although it aint glamorous, it works somehow I don'r see light rail quite accomplishing the same thing. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4351 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
You act like it's either/or. Transit is just as important to a city as any other basic city service, and that's one of the huge reasons the city can rebuild the downtown until their blue in the face. Without transit, all development is in vain. Effective transit is but one component, but a necessity is stopping the continued spinning out of control of the region. The region is where it is today in large part because of how it totally took effective mass transit off the table as a priority, and the entire region suffered, but no one suffered more than Detroit. The choice isn't "police or transit," that's what's been killing the region for years, this false choice. The choice has really been "transit or die." | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1923 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.12.86 |
Citylover: The only person around here who arguing about a correlation between crime and mass transit is you. Quite frankly, any correlation is minimal and secondary in nature.
Wow! It's too bad there isn't anyone around here proposing a cheaper, more efficient means of mass transit. Nice to see you paying attention. So, what do you think Detroit's odds of hosting Super Bowl XL are? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 68 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
I noticed that some have connected a cost and profit relationship with providing better public transportation around here. Like most things in Public Administration they are supported by Federal and state dollars, if you look at Chicago's METRA, or NYC subway system, if you were to strip away Federal and state support, those systems would not be able to survive solely on what the riders pay in fares. When disscussing Public Administration, it is infered that not every thing that a gov't provides its people can be done to reap a profit, things like public transportation, head start, or homeless shelters are there for the public good, and not having them would be too detrimental to the commnunity. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1125 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.42.98.224 |
Great point, look at some of the great transit systems in Europe. Very few if any make a profit. We do not expect the highway system to make a profit, yet look how much money we sink into that as a nation. For just a small part of that we could have the best transit system in the world. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 215 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 164.76.189.121 |
In my opinion, money spent on mass transit helps reduce crime by giving people better economic opportunities. I think that prevents crime. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4353 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Exactly, it's a freedom of movement issue, and quality of life issue. If corporation were content with moving jobs outside of the city, than the region must connect the jobs to people. You know how many Detroiter's work outside the city, and have no other options to their job but an automobile having to rely on carpooling or sometimes-bus service? Not having effective mass transit is morally unconscionable and socially irresponsible. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 06, 2006) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 71 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
Sure! And a GOOD city government cannot just look at current ridership and use that as an excuse to not spend more money to update the transportation system. Sometimes, you gotta roll the dice and expect once you do improve it, more people will start riding. "If you build it, they will come" as said in 'The field of dreams'. Public transportation is a fact of consideration for businesses looking to expand or relocate. If there is lots of gridlock, like Atlanta has, that would be a negative. This affects delivery schedules, cost of fuel, worker productivity, tardiness, abseentism, etc. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1924 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.84.202 |
And the fact that we already have enough people riding mass transit in Detroit to support light rail, only adds to why its insane that we don't have it already. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1756 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.187 |
Forget the myth that economic poverty causes crime.What causes crime is people breaking the law.The only way people are gonna stop breaking the law is if the threat of punitive extraction is real and feared by criminals. Regarding fremenks suggestion that I am the one making the connection with crime and transit I was only responding to Doug making the silly suggestion that somehow light rail would help to reduce crime......pay attention fremmeck. As for you superbowl bullshit.Detroit was the only city to bid on the superbowl i.e. no other city bid on it for 2006. Ford moco regardless of what anyone says is a major major sponsor of the nfl i.e. they pay a ton in advertising and of course ford owns the lions. I was there.It was great to see all the people coming to the city.And I know people waited for transportation.In fact most private transit co's i.e. cab co's and livery/limo co's were granted reciprocity in Detroit to beef up available transportation............but that was one fucking day.One fucking day every twenty years.......c,mon. In Chicago that is a normal occurence.there are always people waiting for the el or the bus.The subways in nyc seem to be crowded as well.It aint like that in Detroit. I am not against it.I don't care all that much.I just think it is pie in the sky to dream about light rail coming into Detroit along almost any main artery save Woodward.I have been out Gratiot and Jefferson and Mich ave and Grand River and frankly large area's are no mans land........who the hell is gonna ride? The pathetic thing about this thread is as clever and as much as a smarmy smart ass any of us are the fact is that there is no mass transit and there is no indication that there will be anytime soon. | ||
Messykitty Member Username: Messykitty Post Number: 138 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.21.198.33 |
...except for MDOT building bridges that can support light rail. | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 160.39.188.183 |
"What causes crime is people breaking the law." So what causes people to break the law? Crime? | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1925 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.84.202 |
Messykitty & Innovator, Why must you introduce logic into this discussion? Don't you know that all of those people riding mass transit in Detroit are just an illusion. Citylover and Livernoisyard are the only people able to see through all of the "facts", "logic" and "evidence" - to discern what is really going on. To be able to ignore one news report after another. To be able to ignore everything that any normal person could see with their own eyes. To be able to ignore the simple laws of logic. Oh, if only we could all be more like them. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1757 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.187 |
Pathetic fremeneck is the only way to describe your responses.You foolishly attempt to belittle my opinion or thoughts as well as ly's who frankly has exposed some of your less than honest responses here. Bypassing all of frmeecks rants the fact remains there is no mass transit and there is no indication that there will be.Of course that was said in the 1st response to this thread. What cause people to break the law? The fact that they can get away with it.Crime cause poverty. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1356 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Logic, my ass! Just more noise and prattle coming from New Urbanists... There are no actual, credible facts about light rail coming to Detroit--just articles, proposals, and propaganda brought forth by its proponents. The simple factoid that some pet projects like the BC are slowly taking off like lead balloons indicates that the CBD still is languishing. Why are firms and lending institutions dragging their feet over CBD projects? That isn't so in Chicago, which has literally dozens of 50+ story skycrapers going up right now. There are absolutely NO skycrapers planned for Detroit, and there haven't been any new ones since the early/mid 1990s. Besides, when viewed on a map, the CBD is hardly "Central," but clearly far to the east and way out of the way for the vast majority of the residents of Metro Detroit. And even if light rail were built, it would have to be supported by bus routes anyway. It's better (meaning more cost effective) to just continue using buses. The time to build such a system came and went decades ago. No expensive system could ever be constructed today in a dying community without a massive infusion of federal funding. So I reiterate: Why should the rest of the country subsidize Detroit? Only dreamers used to entitlement spending could see this coming to pass. Until that time, there will be no light rail unless Metro Detroit decides it wants to bear its huge costs largely by itself. I just don't see that being in the cards or tea leaves. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on September 06, 2006) | ||
Messykitty Member Username: Messykitty Post Number: 139 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.21.198.33 |
"it would have to be supported by bus routes anyway." This is the case EVERYWHERE there is light rail. Light rail services major transportation corridors, buses serve minor transportation corridors. "...a massive infusion of federal funding." This is the case EVERYWHERE there is light rail. Most of the funding for light rail here (Portland) came from the feds. Lines under construction are still substantially funded by the feds. The debate is where you want to put the money that already comes into the region for transportation. Roads or mass transit? | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 217 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 164.76.189.121 |
Out tax money is already subsidizing the rest of the countries mass transit systems, why can't Detroit, who really needs it (not like Boston and the big dig, for example) be subsidized. The point of those kinds of federal dollars is to enable cities that don't have enough money to build systems to have them. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1357 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Gimme, gimme, gimme! That's Detroit in a nutshell. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 73 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 63.164.145.198 |
CompuServe HQs was built in 2000. Doesn't that qualify as a Sky Scraper? Or how about Visteon HQ by Lafayette Coney Island built in 05? Are these not tall enough to count? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4355 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Comparing Detroit to Chicago is apples to oranges, as the two have always served different purposes. That would be like trying to compare Philly to NYC, development-wise. Most importantly, the point is totally irrelevant when talking mass transit, anyway. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1363 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"CompuServe HQs was built in 2000. Doesn't that qualify as a Sky Scraper? Or how about Visteon HQ by Lafayette Coney Island built in 05? Are these not tall enough to count?" You surely must know how to Wiki, so that must have been a weak rhetorical question. Detroit was once an early leader in building skyscrapers. But that was when Detroit amounted to something. The arbitrary minimum height for a modern skyscraper is 500 feet. Do you actually believe that Compuware (BTW, it's not CompuServe as you believe it to be.) is a tenth of a mile in height? And Visteon will never occupy the "Visteon HQ." | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 89 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.214.180.51 |
Read this link. Its not a article, its a post based on this forum....... https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/81611.html?1157596131 By the way, read my second remark, not my first. I only have two post on their so it shouldnt be hard trying to find my second one. (Message edited by Dtown1 on September 06, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4357 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Livernois, a "high-rise" is generally regarded as a building over 12 stories, or 115 feet. I've always understood a "skyscraper" to mean over 300 feet, with 1,000 feet being the level which you reach "supertall" status. Regardless, it's a moot point, anyway, especially when talking mass transit. | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 807 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.30.158.68 |
This is one of the stupidest things that has been posted on this site. Quote Citylover: "Forget the myth that economic poverty causes crime.What causes crime is people breaking the law.The only way people are gonna stop breaking the law is if the threat of punitive extraction is real and feared by criminals." Consequences are definitely a deterrent, but get a life Citylover. Not to thread-jack by any means, but the cause of crime is not merely the thought that you can get away with it. I runs much deeper. You must have been upset when you said that, I know - heat of the moment. later - naturalsister |
