  Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1758 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.246 |
Not upset at alL;Just stating the obvious.Ultimately Natural sister crime is done by those that have impulse control problems.........they want what you have and are unwilling to work for it. Go ahead and cling to the idea that circumstances cause crime.Billions spent on social programs to get at the "root" causes of crime have workes splendidly......we can all see evidence of that in Detroit. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1926 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.48.189 |
Excuse me?!? "Less than honest"?!? Let's get a few things straight: * I pointed out that Detroit already has more people riding mass transit than other cities with a viable light rail system. * I pointed out that we would all save money and get better service by switching to light rail along key routes. * More importantly, I cited all of my sources so that everything can be verified. And how did you respond??? By insisting that it wasn't true without providing any evidence to prove it. Nothing. You blatantly made up facts to support your opinions. And I called you on it. I reminded you that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not everyone is entitled to their own facts. And you got huffy. But you didn't admit to making up "facts" to support your opinions and you didn't cite anything that would substatiate what you were saying. Nothing. You just kept making up stuff and ranting about how wrong I was to use verfiable facts, evidence and logic. And yet you keep wondering why most people think you're on drugs? Oh, and while we at it - please learn to spell my user name. Fnemecek. It's not that hard, especially if you don't have a crack pipe in your hand while you're typing. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2951 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Fnemecek, Hang it up man, Citylover for the last 6+ years I have been on this forum has sang nothing but that same old song that crime is the end all reason that things fell apart in Detroit. What he does not realize is that when there are few opportunities (vocational or educational), then people ultimately will resort to crime. Yeah there will be a few knuckleheads that will do things just to see if they can get away with it, or people who try to get rich quick by illegal means; however, everyone that gets caught in that lifestyle does not neccessarily want to be there nor do it becuase they are acting on impulse. Now to make that make sense with respect to transportation, will there may be opportunity for person A, but there may not be a way for this person to get there to take advantage of it (if it is a far off area where transit does not exist and this person has no personal vehicle). Therefore is this person is stuck in an area where there is literally nothing then they merely by reason of survival for them and theirs will resort to crime just to make it from one day to the next. The lack of opportunity also plays on a person phsycologically if it's deep enough and makes them feel as if they have no other option but to resort to alternative means of survival. If a person has no real marketable skills (or a good education)then it multiplies someone's chances of getting caught up even moreso. The very notion CL seems to try to put out that people commit crimes simply becuase of 'impulse control' problems and lumps all criminals into that one group serves only to narrow his view on what really causes some people to illegal activities. Good, effective transit could possibly serve to allow potential law breakers to take advantage of opportunity when it is available to them, so they won't feel as if they only have the alternative to resort to. But that's just my take on it however... (Message edited by Detroit_stylin on September 07, 2006) (Message edited by Detroit_stylin on September 07, 2006) | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1927 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.48.189 |
Okay - thanks for the reminder and perspective. | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 808 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.8.52.129 |
Thank you Stylin'! Well said. later - naturalsister | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1759 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.222 |
http://www.enotalone.com/artic le/4486.html | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 74 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
I did not want to purchase this from the Detroit news just to prove a point. This article quotes an expert who says Metro Detroit has seen an increase in bank robberies and that he feels it is directly attributal to the lack of good paying jobs available and increased layoffs by the automotive companies and their suppliers. Accused thief: Jail was motive July 25, 2006 •• 732 words •• ID: det24462295 TROY -- Out of work and desperate, 60-year-old Lawrence C. Lawson entered a LaSalle Bank branch with a note and a loaded .357 magnum to pull off the heist he considered for some time, Troy police say. On the way out, he fainted and fell to the floor, they claim. An Oakland County judge on Monday ordered the unlikely accused thief from Madison Heights -- an aging unemployed automotive designer -- to undergo a psychological examination to see if he's competent to stand trial on..... | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1760 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.222 |
No point to prove.Read the link I provided for someone that has done extensive work in the area | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 75 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
Well, if you've ever spent any time watching court TV, you'd realize that you can find experts to say whatever you wish. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1761 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.222 |
that is not true | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
Not to imply these experts are lying. I'm saying that there are two opinions, each supported by a group of experts. I did read your article, the question I have is? What about all the people born with the criminal characteristics that never commit a crime, or how about the young man who holds up a liquor store when he's 20, but after he serves his time, he becomes a responsible citizen? To buy into your article author's theory, you need to label anyone who has these characteristics a criminal for life. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 90 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.252.4.50 |
Lets recall, this topic is about a LIGHT RAIL in Detroit. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 77 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
I felt the crime issue had to be summarily addressed. That is a common complaint that better public transportation will give criminals easy access to neighborhoods in cities they would not normally be able to get to. In fact providing access to jobs and wooing more businesses to come here because among other things we have a great public transportation network, it is implied crime will go down from the resulting better jobs in metro Detroit. People will have less need to take what they could other wise buy honestly. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1369 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Cambrian, I have deeds to bridges and such. As many as you care to purchase... | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 78 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
Or how about Nevada Swamp Land? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1762 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.222 |
Two myths now_ mass transit does no give criminals easy access and poverty does not cause crime | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 66.195.132.2 |
Mass transit does not spread crime to outlying areas. I'm not going to argue with you about the poverty and crime thing, but just look at brightmoor. It's poor but not necessarily dangerous. I think we should look at the Washington Metro and the Chicago metra. At every stop along the Washington Metro's new stations the town or neighborhood that it was built in saw a dramatic increase in the number of businesses and new homes or condo's in the area. The same is true of Chicago. Detroit makes it easier to get into the city, but they can use this model to encourage suburbs to sign onto a deal also. | ||
Titancub Member Username: Titancub Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.134.218.45 |
CL - just because an 'expert' wrote a book doesn't mean its true. Nutty Muslim 'experts' have written books on the myth of the holocaust so I guess we'll believe them instead of all the other books, documentary, experts, etc. Heck, i just read that some BYU teacher has written a book saying that the World Trade Center was actually brought down by bombs in the building that the US Gov't planted, not by the plane that the crazy Muslim hijackers rammed into the buildings. Point, you can dredge up an 'expert' from anywhere to support ANY opinion or theory. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1764 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.45 |
That wtc theory is actually not so far fetched there are credible sources that believe some explosives had to be inside in order for the towers to collapse. If your point is to show that anyone can be an "expert" then show me a link.It took me all of about 5 seconds to find the link I provided.If talking to 100's if not 1000's of criminals is not evidence of some sort of pattern then nothing is. But as I said show me your expert.Show me where there is a direct causal relationship between crime and being poor. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1748 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I'm really intrigued to know your definition of "credible". That's for a different thread, though. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 70 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.153.1.154 |
Citylover, you may want to do a search on those 2 buildings and look at the issue of "trusses". The main architect for the building, I apologize, I can't remember his name , went to the site where they fell, as well as the landfill that all the debris had been taken to after 9/11. The conclusion was the heat factor and the issue with the trusses literally melting because of the type of fuel. Jet fuel burns the hottest with heat temperatures about 1500 f. The heat caused them to give, then the building lost one floor that dropped on the next , which fropped on the next, and so on and so on. Its dominoe affect continued to the last floor. The amount of fuel, and the type of fuel did them in. The design of the buildings made them vulnerable as well. There is going to be a 2 part movie, "docu drama" this Sunday and Monday evening. Its not factual, but it may mention this topic........thanks, Jane.. | ||
Paulj Member Username: Paulj Post Number: 469 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.79.89.120 |
sheeesh i've waited 27 years. i'm not sitting around in a burned out dysfunctional city until im 75 so i can watch other peoples grandchildren get on the new mass transit system. Albert Kahn's buildings aren't *that* cool. Life is for living today, detroit is paralyzed in the past, on an economic, political, and social level. This is the same old song & dance thats been going on since before I was born. <yawn> | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7827 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Thank you for sharing your opinion, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. We know you're not happy in Detroit and I am sure that most on the forum wish you well in your future endeavors but you may want to life the needle off the record player because it has been skipping for quite some time now. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1765 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.222 |
The point is not whether I agree the point is credible people question what happened at the wtc_ googling will show that. What is absolute bullshit(surprise,surprise) is that yahoos on this thread attempt to discredit a perfectly legitimate source I provided regarding crime.I could easily fnd more a could anyone else. So show me where this guy is wrong that I linked.Instead of making ridiculous and false implications that my link was somehow out of the mainstream by saying some crap about the wtc show me countering evidence that differs. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1749 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Is this thread about light rail anymore? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7830 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Since when do threads stay on track (no pun intended) around here? | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2958 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
I don't think so Dan, after all CL was the one that shifted the focus to his default arguement... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1750 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Oh yes, that's right. SO, back in the late 1960s, Washington was able to build the Metro because they finally got rid of all crime. It was a pretty quick recovery, considering the 1968 riots pretty much decimated "Black Broadway" on U Street and the neighborhoods along H Street NE. But hey, you know Congress is very responsive and willing to dump unlimited amounts of money on the District. So yes, the entire time they were building the Metro, from the riots through the eras of Vietnam, Watergate, hostages in Iran, Reagonomics, crack/ Marion Barry, and Clinton's blowjob, there has been no crime whatsoever. This is important, because a city can't possibly do anything at all until it gets rid of all crime. Detroit is different because it has a different latitude and longitude. For that reason, it will be much harder to get rid of crime. Until then, everything else is pie in the sky. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 81 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
Detroit does have that odd phenomon in that we never recovered from the '67 riots. Other cities have had their challenges, LA's '92 Riots, NYC Terrorist attacks of '93 and '01, and I've heard on the Radio that Boston is seeing a huge increase in homicides. None of those factors ever go punished in those cities with mass exodus to the suburbs or dwindling investment to infrastructure like they do around here. I just don't get it. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7831 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Detroit's ills did not start with the riots. That is non-sense that is continually perpetuated. It added to major issues of flight, increased crime, racial tensions but all were already there. The notion that everything was perfect and humming along until 1967 is just silly and incorrectly stated in the papers over and over again. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2964 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
The riots were are also perpetually and wrongfully labled as a 'race' riot, when in fact it was a rebellion against an oppresive police force. | ||
Hybridy Member Username: Hybridy Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 198.109.51.97 |
haha silly fools no need for a light rail my roommate just took a position doing research on a possible mass transit route from dowtown to st clair shores via hovercraft. there's no end to the madness. if its only research, when would water travel ever be more feasible than rail in this scenario? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 82 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
I guess the "flight reflex" is in our genes. Before it was moving away from crime or the black families buying a house on our block, we were moving to get away from factory emissions. That's how a lot of outer areas of Detroit and the Suburbs got developed in the 1920s and on. To give people a less congested living space where they could breathe fresh air. After generations of that mentality, even though there's no more factory emissions to speak of really, we still see moving out as a fashionable upwardly mobile thing. All though I've heard it said that's what Baby Boomers saw as an achievement, us Gen Xers however are rediscovering urban settings and like living in areas where we can walk to from our house to do the shopping. Are there exceptions to that? Sure! I know Macomb Twp and Canton are full of successful 30 somethings that managed to stay employed in the auto industry somehow. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7842 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Beyond that many of us see the damage done due to an ever expanding region with no growth in population. More infrastructure to maintain, more schools, more costs, more governments, etc all with the same tax base. It isn't only Detroit that suffers but inner rings and it will, over time expand to the Macomb Townships and Cantons. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 458 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 198.175.55.5 |
I just want to point something out that has been misused on this thread and others. Chicago's Metra is not light rail. Metra is Chicago's commuter rail system, which is not what's being discussed here (outside of the proposed commuter rail link to AA). Metra and CTA are both run by the RTA, but are separate organizations that do not share track or purpose. (Message edited by focusonthed on September 08, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1381 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"I guess the "flight reflex" is in our genes. Before it was moving away from crime or the black families buying a house on our block, we were moving to get away from factory emissions." My grandfather lived on a double lot on the corner of Jonathan and Ruby (near Ford and Schaefer) in Dearborn. In the early 1940s, both my grandmother and my 17-yo aunt died of asthma. When I lived there during the summer of 1958, I noticed that leaving sheets and clothes out to dry might end up gathering "dust" if they were hanging out a bit. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 216 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.166.44.44 |
River rat just rode a commuter train in Albuquerque, New Mexico! Lots of happy riders and the fare was great -- $0. It is the result of good political leadership in that city and New Mexico knowing how to get federal $$$. Think about that when you vote. Think! Please, if you want there to be a chance for mass transit here, get rid of our lightweight Washington representatives and Senator S. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 89 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.236.19 |
Remember Albuquerque is one of the fastest growing metro area's in the country. The region around the city isn't strapped for cash. It's a thriving and fast growing area with a lot of new money coming in. Not really the case in metro Detroit. Although I'm a fan of a light rail system in the city, I don't think good political leadership will necissarily solve the situation. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2972 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.202.227.12 |
Now when we say that good political leadership in the area make sure that we are including those anti-transit fools in suburbia who happen to be the biggest obstacles to transit in the region... You know the ones that scream "more roads and highways"? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1385 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The guy that ran the State Fair is now the front man for mass transit and either just started and will start next week. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1935 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.166.145 |
Actually, it has more to do with the fact that almost all federal funds that come into New Mexico for transit go straight to Albuquerque. New Mexico doesn't have an equivalent to Grand Rapids or Flint. Detroit not only has to compete to bring the federal dollars into Michigan, but to bring them to Detroit once they're here. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4377 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Hell, they have to compete not only against other cities in the Outstate area, they have to compete directly with their own suburbs like no other city I've seen. Metro Detroit is a Metropolitan Area in name only. It sure doesn't function like a regular metro, rather like a disjointed group of small-to-large, and extremely provincial, fiefdoms, who couldn't care less if their neighbor fell off the map, or was wiped out Katrina-style. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1752 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
That's not quite correct. The FTA doesn't allocate transit dollars on a "per state" basis, but considers each individual project on its own merits. It's not as if each state gets a block grant for transit to be divvied amongst its urban areas. The problem is--you need to develop a project comprehensively enough to justify receiving federal funding from the government. Michigan is terrible at this, because they seem to wait until money is available before beginning a project, creating a catch-22. Let's face it--aside from the $100 million that was allocated for the Ann Arbor-Detroit study, Michigan has been extremely lazy about trying to get federal transit dollars. To argue that a small metropolitan area like Albuquerque has more money than an area like Detroit is not only absurd, but pathetic. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 99 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.234.149 |
A Republican lead Federal Government probably doesn't help the Detroit transportation project though. Detroit is a very democratic city in a pretty democratic state. Detroit is also an overwhelmingly black city. Plus trains take people away from their gas guzzeling cars. We all know what George Bush thinks of blacks and democrats, just look at Katrina and New Orleans. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1937 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.216.187 |
FTA is one (small) pool of money. Then there's the rest of the money the feds spend on transit. The recent Transportation and Housing & Urban Development Appropriations Bill, which does (for the most part) use a per-state formula, contained such wonders as: * $650 million went to construct a new Amtrack facility in west Michigan; * $4 million for bus replacement in the U.P.; * $3 million for bus replacement in Grand Rapids; * $3.5 million for purchasing new buses in Lansing; And then there's all of the dozen or so projects in Oakland, Macomb and western Wayne Counties to expand or widen one road or another. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 173 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Milwaukee what does detroit having a lot of black people do with the Federal govt not doing anything here?? I bet if Detroit had a sizable number of black republican's GWB would be here kissing our asses. GWB has given blacks many high level cabinent positions. I don't think he has a problem with black folks, just poor people that vote democratic. Dan, that is partly true. Larger projects have to wait in line to get funding as there is just not enough from the gas tax to build everything everyone wants. Section 5307 funding is apportioned by size of metropolitan area. It is Section 5309 and pork that is considered 'discretionary', and can vary wildly. Fmemeck -- $650 million for amtrak??? ya sure you read that right!! Detroit DOT and SMART got a fair number of pork jobs too. The region also got $100 for the train to Ann Arbor project. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on September 10, 2006) | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 310 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.144.114 |
I know you guys don't like my comments on this. But as you know already about my thoughs on this, Detroit does not need LRT yet. Detroit needs Quality bus service across the entire city and metropolitan area. When the bus service is beefed up, then look at LRT. When Woodward Ave has limited stop bus service, and quality service seven days a week, and when every other major road in Metro Detroit has quality bus service, then lets talk about LRT. Right now what Detroit needs is buses that run to all corners of the metro region with good service levels to get people to work, students to school, etc. Quality bus service would do more for the metro region at this point, then a single LRT line up one corridor. What good will an LRT line do, if no one can get to it by bus from different areas? Detroit needs more buses now, and LRT latter. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 311 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.144.114 |
I know you guys don't like my comments on this. But as you know already about my thoughs on this, Detroit does not need LRT yet. Detroit needs Quality bus service across the entire city and metropolitan area. When the bus service is beefed up, then look at LRT. When Woodward Ave has limited stop bus service, and quality service seven days a week, and when every other major road in Metro Detroit has quality bus service, then lets talk about LRT. Right now what Detroit needs is buses that run to all corners of the metro region with good service levels to get people to work, students to school, etc. Quality bus service would do more for the metro region at this point, then a single LRT line up one corridor. What good will an LRT line do, if no one can get to it by bus from different areas? Detroit needs more buses now, and LRT latter. Click on this link and look at this map of a bus system in a suburb. Look at that map. When Detroit and its suburbs have bus routes like that, then lets talk LRT. Click to see transit map. This community is a suburb about the size of Livonia (Message edited by miketoronto on September 10, 2006) | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1939 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.229.218 |
Umm... Woodward has limited stop bus service. SMART Routes 445/475.
I pulled the numbers from a press release that Congressman Fred Upton sent around last July. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 312 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.144.114 |
I mean proper rapid bus style service. Not a bus that runs twice a day from park and rides in Troy to downtown. But a real limited stop bus, and quality bus service in all areas of metro Detroit. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1317 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.205.235 |
I wouldn't claim that there's a strong connection in either direction between crime and transit, it's weak at best. Mostly I was responding to the direction of cause and effect. Anything you do to significantly increase the quality of life in an area (whether introducing good transit, or creating new jobs, cleaning up blight, whatever) can stem population loss in that area which can have a (small) positive side effect on crime. You don't have to have low crime before transit is introduced. Ultimately you want to have both lower crime and better transit, of course.  | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 174 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Wow, that must be some sort of optimistic number, thats way too high, I'm going to look into that. I've got a list of all the pork sitting on my desk, but I never cared about the other side of the state. I hope the $$$ is used to help improve the line that the Detroit train runs on, as any improvements there also improve service for Detroit passengers. Mike I agree, we need to be able to crawl before we can walk. Buses are much more flexible for large events (Super Bowl). | ||
Newlaster Member Username: Newlaster Post Number: 191 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.136.136.209 |
Ask the feds (nicely) for 35 billion. Then we'll have a world-class transit system. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1753 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Those all sound like pretty specific projects to me. The money is being appropriated for these particular projects--the State of Michigan doesn't get to allocate the money as it sees fit, as this isn't a block grant. Miketoronto, as someone who lives in a city with good rail transit, I'm sure you know that the presence of rail helps the bus system run better. What are the weaknesses of buses? I would say unpredictability, low speed, and "bunching". These problems are exacerbated the longer the route. Without rail, buses are forced to run routes with lengths more appropriate for a rail system. At present, the average trip on SMART is 10 miles--by far the highest for any bus system in the nation. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2006 Posted From: 69.210.28.203 |
I agree with Miketoronto the region should at least first coordinate the bus services we already have before trying to tackle something much more ambitious as a light rail system. It wouldnt make sense to have any light rail until we have one transit agency that is responsible for all bus and possible rail service. As DARTA died so did my belief that this is possible, well at least any time soon. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4409 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
DARTA isn't dead, at least no in the since that all of the studies and information have been lost to history. It is still very much on the burner. I also don't think that a region that had rail before has to take baby steps, again. The infastructure and know-how is already there. I could see if we were talking about a city/metro much smaller that was new to the whole rail thing, but Detroit is not one of them. The bus sytem needs to be worked out, as it can and will compliment any rail system, but I don't think that a line up or down Woodward, or from downtown to the airport is contingent upon sorting out the bus system, or even connected to that. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2006 Posted From: 69.210.28.203 |
In some sense it is connected, the inevitable questions of who gets it, who pays for it, and who runs it would all be easier answered if there was one entity that was being asked the questions. While I suppose that the system could be run by another independent agency do we really need a third transit system in this region? Imagine then the difficulty of coordinating the rail system to run in sync with with both smart and ddot up woodward when it is difficult for just the two. Im glad to hear there is still some hope for DARTA though, it peeved me off to hear it fall apart whats the status of it now? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4412 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Again, a commuter rail line, at the very least, from the airport to downtown and beyond shouldn't be contingent upon finding a solution for DDOT/SMART/DARTA, or even a light rail line up Woodward. Something like this shouldn't have to wait for a restructured bus system. To read up on DARTA, hit up this site: http://www.darta.info/ (Message edited by lmichigan on September 12, 2006) | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 104 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.237.209 |
Does Detroit have terrible traffic jams coming into the city every morning, or is the downtown so empty of major offices that most workers work in the suburbs? If you do have terrible traffic every morning and evening then why hasn't a light rail system been demanded by the people. If you don't have a major traffic problem, then what's the point of spending all that money on a train system on such a car city? | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2006 Posted From: 69.210.28.203 |
It shouldnt but more than likely opponents of light rail will use the lack of a single system as a reason why rail isnt feasible. Commuting patterns in detroit are weird there as many people coming in as there are out. Traffic jams aren't that bad on city freeways in comparison to almost any other similarly sized city. Detroit's daytime population actually falls during the day and because of this many argue that a detroit centered rail system would be ineffective because the majority of the regions jobs are in the burbs but since 1/3 (not sure) of detroits(city) population does not own a vehicle it would help the residents get to jobs or etc. Traffic jams in Detroits case shouldnt be the factor which determines whether or not a system is built since alot of the residents dont drive, in the city atleast I dont know about the burbs. Oh,thanks for the link LMich (Message edited by mayor_sekou on September 12, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1407 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
There are a few minor traffic jams downtown which are short-lived and mild compared to such cities as Chicago which has mucho rapid/mass transit, to boot. If those affected drivers would stagger their working hours, it wouldn be better. Smart drivers can avoid these by intelligent timing or going on surface roads for a stretch; the dummies either all drive at the same time and rarely drive away from the congestion but instead ride it out. The traffic copters help quite a bit if one cares to listen and heed the advice. Again, many Detroit drivers are like lemmings, approaching the water. There's predictable traffic on I-94 where the several freeways merge or cross it for about two miles downtown. Also way out west on I-94 by the airport, which is far from the city proper. The traffic sometimes halts briefly, but usually it's just a crawl for a stretch. The really troublesome jams are in the burbs, usually by the "mixing bowl" which isn't as bad now either since the construction for that intersection was completed about a month ahead of schedule. I would like nothing better than to have traffic jams in Detroit. That would mean that Detroit isn't such the dying city it currently is. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on September 13, 2006) | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 314 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.71.48.124 |
Traffic jams no matter how much they are hated I think do signal a vibrant city. Everytime I see traffic totally stopped going into downtown Toronto on the weekends, I always make the comment "that shows a vibrant city". In Detroit's case I don't think you need traffic jams to make transit viable on Woodward. SMART'S Park and Ride commuter bus routes are actually pretty well used. That shows that given quality transit, commuters will take transit to downtown for work. Downtown Detroit and midtown, and New Centre together are home to over 100,000 workers, plus the thousands of students at Wayne State, and ball games, etc. These are major trip generators, and viable transit can serve that. People can talk all they want about jobs in the suburbs, etc. But at the end of day, the Central Detroit area no matter how hard it has fallen, is still the largest employment hub in the region. And it needs viable transit to draw more business in. Wayne State I think could be a massive transit draw. Why should students have to drive to school? In Toronto the majority of university students take transit to school, even out in the suburban campus'. With viable transit, I am sure Detroit could get the majority of Wayne State students to take transit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4414 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Exactly. Automobile traffic shouldn't be much of a factor. We're talking about offering options in transportation. Perhaps because of the commuting patterns, Detroit may not have as extensive of a system as other's, but there should be something, and at the very least from the airport to downtown and from there to Oakland County. That's the very least the area could support and it doesn't even have that. Visitors that fly in shouldn't have to rent a car or take a cab from the airport, nor should those that don't have a car (or don't want one) have to take unreliable buses or costly cab rides to transerve their metropolitan area. Limited mobility is not healthy for a metropolitan area as large as Detroit. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1409 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Universities usually do not contribute much to traffic compared to workers due to timing. Most colleges have eliminated their early classes (~8 AM) of yesteryears, and few students take middle to late afternoon classes, except for some long labs. The University of Wisconsin, for example, is a ghost town in the afternoons. And they have 42,000 to 43,000 students, plus 2000 profs-- a few thousand more students than the U of M. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 315 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.71.48.124 |
Funny how some people in Detroit say transit won't work. However myself a tourist, took SMART buses along Woodward Ave, and man where they packed even at 9PM at night. Infact going back into Detroit from Royal Oak, the bus was so full myself and many others had to stand. And this is on a bus route that at best was running every 30min at that time, and going into what most people consider a decayed and desolate city. And ontop of that, it was not all poor black people. The bus had a split of white, black, working class, and some normal middle class looking residents, and some very very well dressed black people. There is pent up demand atleast in the Woodward corridor for quality transit service. Lets start with the buses and then work up to rail. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1762 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Miketoronto, I don't think you can do it piecemeal. Does bus service need to be better coordinated between DDOT and SMART? Absolutely. Should Detroit wait for the bus system to be "perfect" before embarking on a rail plan? Probably not. The presence of a rail system can help to coordinate the bus services. The bus systems will naturally want to re-route the buses to serve the rail mode, as rail stations serve as natural transfer points. Think of the rail system as an artery, with the buses as capillaries. I don't agree with the sentiment, though, that a single agency needs to be responsible for all transit services. Chicago has three transit providers. DC has Metro, the two commuter rail providers, and at least five suburban bus systems. New York has three major transit providers (the many services of MTA, NJ Transit, and PATH), as well as tons of private service providers. So, there is precedent for regions to have multiple providers and still be effective. It's time for Detroit to stop making excuses and just get it done. The SEMCOG AA-Detroit transit study is a good start. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1951 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.84.183 |
Right, it was all divied up in a congressional committee in DC. Just like the money that funds Albuquerque's mass transit system. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1764 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Exactly. Albuquerque's Rail Runner project successfully competed against other projects nationwide to receive that appropriation. I don't understand your previous comment about Detroit having to compete with Flint and Grand Rapids for transit funding--it's a nationwide competition, and if you don't apply, you don't get. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 316 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.148.111 |
I am not worried about rail and flashy transit projects to attract car drivers at the moment. What Detroit needs right now is a metro wide bus network that gets people who need it the most(carless and poor) to work, school, etc. When that is taken care of, then we can work on rail and other projects to attract choice ridership. Rail is going to take years to start. A improved bus network on Woodward for example could be started in no time. And I bet you an improved bus network on Woodward would attract choice riders also. Right now we gotta put the thoughts on attracting choice ridership away for a moment. And focus on the people right now who can't get to work, etc with the bus system we have now. Because a LRT line up Woodward will not help them get out to Lakeside Mall, or any other area off that line. But a bus will. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 106 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 66.195.132.2 |
In Milwaukee they have approved a light rail system and for the routes they planned, they said that the bus service would be cancelled and the light rail which would be just as frequent would follow the busiest routes in the city. Detroit could do the same thing. I don't know the busiest bus routes, but if you took away the busses, people still have to goto work and people would just have to take the light rail system. The appeal is that the light rail uses a whole lot less gas than the buses do, so the bus company would make a bunch of money in the long term after they laid the rails and bought the new trains. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 107 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 66.195.132.2 |
In Milwaukee they have approved a light rail system and for the routes they planned, they said that the bus service would be cancelled and the light rail which would be just as frequent would follow the busiest routes in the city. Detroit could do the same thing. I don't know the busiest bus routes, but if you took away the busses, people still have to goto work and people would just have to take the light rail system. The appeal is that the light rail uses a whole lot less gas than the buses do, so the bus company would make a bunch of money in the long term after they laid the rails and bought the new trains. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1032 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 146.9.52.68 |
EXACTLY. Once DOT and SMART save $1 billion in gas money the trains will practically pay for themselves! | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1957 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.227.84.183 |
#1. It's a Congressional allocation. Cities don't apply anymore than I apply to pay taxes every year. #2. We compete with Grand Rapids, et al because the federal transit budget, for the most part, starts with a per state formula. Once the budget is established that money is divied up to various projects. #3. Most of that money goes to a) outstate mass transit projects and b) road expansions in the Detroit area. (Road expansions are currently viewed as "job creating".) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1765 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Are you talking about FTA's budget--or SAFETEA, which is the major federal capital funding mechanism for New Starts projects? What you describe certainly isn't consistent with funding provided through the transportation bill that Congress passes every six years. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 226 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.166.44.44 |
Danindc is well-versed in transportation issues and he is correct when he states that the Albuquerque Rail Runner competed against other projects nationally. For those of you who claim it is because Detroit and Michigan are states with Democrat leaders, you should look up the New Mexico and Albuquerque political lesdership. The reason they got the money is that they have competent political leadership, Detroit does not. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 2984 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.39.169.124 |
Ummmmmmm.....MIchigan does not. not JUST Detroit... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1410 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Milwaukee and Detroit, though having many similarities (and even more contrasts), are two vastly different animals. Metro Milwaukee has a higher percentage of its population in the city than does Detroit, even if Racine and Ozaukee Counties are considered. Milwaukee has some synergies with Chicago which Detroit does not enjoy with another nearby large community, having their CBDs only some ninety miles apart. Chicagoans frequently take in Milwaukee's sports and vice versa. Milwaukee doesn't have arson-plagued buildings and such either, scattered all over the place. And people can still shop downtown and older shopping centers within its city limits. No need to shop in the burbs as in Detroit. But like Detroit, its manufacturing districts, such as its long 30th Street Industrial Corridor which once built over 60% of the vehicle chassis and frames in all of North America, are moribund since the late 1950s. Can light rail work in Milwaukee? Maybe, but still the real industry still left there is in the burbs, as in Detroit. Commuters in Milwaukee, like Detroit, love their cars, and the exoburbs extend into several nearby counties. As in Detroit, its downtown is stuck off to the east and out of the way for most employment and commerce. So Milwaukee and Detroit will have problems with ridership in that regard. At least, Milwaukeeans won't have to worry about getting stabbed near the Miller Brewery and Miller Field. But since both Detroit and Milwaukee were more than once each considered the murder capitals of the country based on population have their dicier areas, such as Sherman Park near my old parochial school. People in both cities are considered at risk, waiting at bus stops, etc. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1770 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
You mean like Chicago? The "Detroit is not like any other place" excuse is really tiresome. Good rail transit seems to work in every other city in the world, but there's always some bullshit reason why it won't work in Detroit. I think Livernoisyard is right--rail transit won't work in Detroit, not because the conditions aren't right, but because people would rather put their energies into feeling sorry for their city than to change it for the positive. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1411 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The Loop and nearby is hardly dead, with the museums, its vibrant business, restaurants, and tourists. I just don't foresee Detroit or Milwaukee ever becoming busy tourist attractions like Chicago or Cedar point or Wisconsin Dells... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1772 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
What do tourist attractions have to do with getting people to work? Do you really think most transit riders are tourists? | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 619 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.213.230.209 |
Transit systems aren't built for tourists (although they DO make getting around for visitors easier). They are and should be built for the citizens of the cities they serve. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1412 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Tourism is just an addendum. Michigan and Wisconsin are big in tourism, but not the largest city of each. Both Detroit and Milwaukee suffer due to their geography. Each is located in a "peninsula," a bit out of the way. It was only around the onset of the Twentieth Century before the Penn Railroad took a gamble and started Detroit passenger service. Chicago is totally dissimilar than either Milwaukee and Detroit in that is was a commercial hub and not a terminus. That is what will hurt the Detroit Intermodal Freight Terminal, if it ever comes to pass in a major way in Detroit or Ferndale. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1773 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
You're talking national development of the continental railroad system in the 19th century. We're discussing public transportation in Metropolitan Detroit, or lack thereof, in the 21st century. What does one have to do with the other? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4417 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Dan, Yard will pull out ANY excuse (even if it doesn't have anything to do with light rail in Detroit) to try to explain why explain why light rail wouldn't work in Detroit, even when there is proof that would. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 129 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.237.231 |
AS I said LMichigan and as others have stated, there is not enough traffic on the main fareways to build a Light Rail system. It never has anything to do with population. Boston has things to offer people all across the city form historical sites to work in the CBD to lower crime. Detroit doesn't have all of that to offer as Boston does. If you can actually drag race on a busy fareway during rushour, than I know its not enough traffic to build rails or subways. The people mover is hardly ever crowded because people can drive right to their jobs in their cars no problem and can time theirselves. Also, unlike Chicago or NYC, there's a lack or traffic lights around the our CBD, which allows drivers to freely drive and as you know, most drivers dont stop at four way stops like their suppose to. Now I look at most freeways, yes they're may be some slowdowns, but however, unless teres an accident, theres really never any traffic jams. NYC has traffic jams all the time, accidents or no accidents. Thats also becuase of the pedestrains. Do to the lack of family restaurants, events, jobs, and shopping downtown, there is hardly any reason for pedestrianship because most of the places that are downtown arent walking distance from each other or their isnt anything at all. People use mass transit so they won't have to deal with the issues of traffic jams. Detroit has a lack of traffic jams and in my opinions, slow downs juust arent enough to build any form of mass transit, as long as you can home within a hour form most suburbs from our CBD. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1413 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"We're discussing public transportation in Metropolitan Detroit, or lack thereof, in the 21st century. What does one have to do with the other?" Detroit is back to where it was during the 1800s when it was developing, although it really wasn't well situated with the exception of lake freighters. If Detroit is so vibrant and in need of mass/rapid transit, just where are those evidences of it? Only fools will spend billions (unless it's "free" federal money) on pipe dreams. Businessmen are not so spendthrift. That's why there's little development in SE Michigan, particularly in Detroit. If Detroit wanted rail, it should have built it early in its development (when Detroit was well off) or during the Great Depression (when there was plenty of cheap labor). Let's face it. These rail threads are nothing but wishful thinking. Some advocate it as being a driving force to improve Detroit's dying economy in a 1-state recession, whereas the vast remainder of the country has been booming for three to four years. Economists say when a region doesn't recover from a recession and is a year or more behind the country as a whole, IT WON'T RECOVER because something or another is fundamentally out of whack. We know what these entail, but many, especially in this forum, just do not want to either believe them or are living a big lie. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 110 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.238.214 |
Livernoisyard, I have to disagree with you about the location thing and Detroit. Detroit is a great location, maybe its not directly between Cleveland and Chicago, but it is located on the narrow piece of water that unites the eastern and western great lakes. Detroit is great location. Chicago is a better one for railroads, but Detroit is better situated on the water. Milwaukee, is not nearly as fortunate as Detroit in location and that is a prime reason why Milwaukee only has 2 million people compared to Chicago's 10 and Detroits 5.5. I'd like to talk to you more about Milwaukee some other time though. But you need to understand, that Detroit is in far to good a geographical position to die. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 130 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.237.231 |
The most the city will get is a Gondela ride to and from Canada. Plus, the last time that was discussed was 04, havent heard anymore since. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4420 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
You guys keep arguing traffic, and location, and...again, how can you explain away the fact that there is no rail line connection from the airport to downtown, and then to Oakland County? Again, you may be able to argue that a extensive light rail/commuter rail system can't be implemented in Detroit (though, that would even be week arguement), but we're talking about basic lines with a built-in ridership. You seem to be arguing directly in the fact of logic. It has nothing to do about whether I'd like to see it or not, it has to do with the fact that these lines would work. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 133 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.237.231 |
Their are two major highways near the metropolitan area's airports and one is surrounded by avenues and a freeway. There isnt a lot of traffic on those expressways or avenues and people can get to and from those airports in less than 30 min form the immediate metro area of Detroit. Basically, the lines won't work. As I said, there's not enough commercial or industrail businessing occuring around the area. Mostly everything in Detroit that is improtant are surrounded by expressways and main fareways. Also, their are so many 3 star or higher hotels,surrounding the airports, that having a light rail to and from the airport will be a waist of money because of the lack of activities occuring in the CBD and star hotels in the CBD. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4421 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
I give up, really I do. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Serisouly, you just keep with this nearly irrelevant, anecdotal 'evidence' of freeway traffic. If freeway traffic isn't bad, than the metro doesn't need mass transit, right? Wow. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 13, 2006) | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 111 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.238.224 |
Lmichigan, Do you agree that if you were to impliment a light rail program then you should take away buses on the routes? I agree with you that a major american city like Detroit should have a wide scale metro system. It would work if you took away the alternative. Think about it if people can't take buses because they've been replaced by light rail then people will ride the light rail. This of coarse would only be on the biggest/busiest routes. Amtrak does already have lines running from Ann Arbor to Dearborn and up through the western suburbs, to downtown. You could just build a station at the Detroit Airport and it sounds like a large part of your idea would be implimented. http://www.amtrak.com/images/m aps/largemaps/MAP-LG_michigans ervices.gif | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4422 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Yes, I agree with that. Where did I deny it, or were you just asking me? | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 112 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 66.195.132.2 |
Just asking you. I think if you explained that to people you would get more support your idea |
