  Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 118 Registered: 03-2006 |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060921/U PDATE/609210440 Amazing! We finally have our smaller class sizes! Too bad the illegal teachers strike may now cost the School District 190 million dollars. Another great day for Detroit. Nice how Granholm stood by and did nothing, she can't afford to alienate the teachers union! (Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 21, 2006) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3604 Registered: 10-2003 |
Would you send your child to a Detroit Public School? | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3014 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes Patrick, many of them are some of the best schools and superior to many schools in Suburban districts in terms of academics... | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2006 |
Quote: Yes Patrick, many of them are some of the best schools and superior to many schools in Suburban districts in terms of academics. Seems that many of the residents of Detroit don't agree. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim? Statistics, ratings, etc? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4461 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes, but that makes little difference if the district is grossly mismanaged. These star schools are stars despite the system, not because of the system. Imagine how much better the district would be if everyone was working in synce instead of a few horrible schools here, and a few brilliant schools there. The disparity of resources even within the DPS is unacceptable. BTW, before someone brings up that Detroit's primary/secondary student population is shrinking, it's not. It's actually growing, but the charter and private religious institutions are picking up most of the children of middle-income and wealthy families within the city. DPS is continuing to be the dumping grounds for students that have no other choice. And, as long as this is the case DPS will never be able to compete save for its magnets/specialized schools. The problem is just so big and complicated and unfair. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 121 Registered: 03-2006 |
Where is the unfairness? The public schools have failed and folks with the means have decided to send their kids elsewhere. This is the best argument for vouchers I have heard yet, they would help the people who lack the means to pursue other avenues as well. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 146 Registered: 07-2005 |
How many of the teachers are going to lose their jobs? I would think you'd have to fire at least 1,500. And to think, those teachers were striking for the benefit of the kids. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1160 Registered: 11-2003 |
The problem is, opening up charter schools is not solving the problem, you're just opening new schools in the mold of the old that will most likely fail because the problems are not fixed. There are not enough charters and religious left or can be started quick enough to take in all the students from DPS. Voucher's will mean that IF Relgious/private schools take the money from the state, they have to go by state regulation, that means NCLB, AYP, taking MEAP, highly qualified teachers, and having to be able to justify why they do not accept a student. Also most private/ religious charters do not have the special education programs to meet the needs of many of the student in any public setting. SO you are leaving public schools as a dumping ground with the leftover that the other skim off the top. Yes, DPS are failing, but the problem needs to be fixed, not shifted to another setting doomed to the same failure. DPS is in trouble, and the students are suffering, but what some of you are suggesting does not solve the problem, it just shifts it. You have to be DeVos and company are going to use this ar an opportunity to push vouchers not because he believes in helping students, he wants every student to have a religious education, so he wants vouchers to help achieve that. We see that with him pushing intelligent design. He first said yesterday it should be taught, then heard the response and then changed to it be an option for local school to choose. Here's another thing most of you do not realize about charters, they are profiting off your tax money. The pro-charter people claim they are a way to save your tax money, but that is false. They are chartered by a university, community college, or ISD, then they hire a management company to run it. The management company then is allowed to take any leftover from running the school as profit. Yes, something needs to get be done for the sake of the children of Detroit, but the options have so many flaws in it, they also need to be fixed. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 287 Registered: 09-2005 |
According to the picket line near me, Southfield teachers don't have a contract either. Who stalls the negotiating until the beginning of school? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1793 Registered: 07-2004 |
Bob you keep spouting bullshit in a veiled way about how awful the big bad "charters" are. I recently spoke with my relative that sets up charters.This is a person that has extensive teaching and administrative experience including several superintendent positions.Btw most of these in urban district.This is a died in the wool longtime democrat. As he told me he got involved because he was asked to and because inner city children should have access to an education that their parents believe and think is equal to what other children might have. He pointed out to me that the Dps has several charters of their own. And that there are over a million students in charter schools around the country_ they aint going away Bob.Obviously there is a demand for charter schools because parents are unhappy with public schools and what they have become. But for those that don't know charters are public schools. I have said it before but I will again the person I know makes no false claims; some schools do better some don't some are the same as public schools and yes the teachers are paid less_ but they could organize. So my relative as strong a supporter of teachers and public ed as there is sees the need for charters because those students and their parents deserve that choice. Btw in Mich universities are limited to I believe 150 charters total i.e. all the U's combined can charter only 150 schools.I don't believe that is true for public schools and comm colleges can have as many charters as they like. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4465 Registered: 10-2003 |
Citylover, I'm not an enemy or charter schools, but how do you explain the fact that when taken as a whole and put up against public school districts, they often don't fare any better? That's not an opinion. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 650 Registered: 06-2006 |
Don't see how we are losing kids, my classes are 15+ over the class size limit of 35. Our school GAINED about 200 kids. Where did they come from?? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 304 Registered: 12-2005 |
All this whining about how the public is turning the DPS into a "dumping ground" ignores the fact that public schools have the responsibility to educate ALL children, regardless of income, IQ, disabilities, etc. Since there is no way the DPS or any other public school system can shirk this responsibility, this "dumping ground" complaint is bogus and attracts very little sympathy. Elected public school board members need to hold their administrators accountable for continuous academic improvement and also continually remind them that there is no law making enrollment in public schools mandatory. They need to attract and retain every possible student living in their district, not only for the state grant money that comes with them but also for the diversity they bring to the student body. When the electorate fails hold their elected school board representatives accountable for overall results, the result is a prolonged and ugly death spiral. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4466 Registered: 10-2003 |
huh? It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Those with the money choose other schools, and thus DPS and other urban school districts have become a dumping ground for those that don't have a choice. Personally, I think that's a damn shame. The DPS needs to exist. I'm getting sick and tired of the deliberate dismantling of our public sectors. It's just another example of our "throw-away" society, where you don't stick around to fix things, you simply run away and everything is fixed. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 21, 2006) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1794 Registered: 07-2004 |
Lmich you are correct the charters don't on average perform much differently. But at least parents have a choice.Say for example you, as a parent, don't like your neighborhood school; now you can choose a charter and take your child there.Perhaps it would be just as accurate to say charters don't perform any worse. I am not saying charters are the answer from heaven.I am exposing Bobs continuous diatribe against charters.As I pointed out over a million students attend charters.They are public schools and they are here to stay. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4468 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh, I agree. Choice in education, just like choice in all other aspects of life, is a good and necessary thing. But, there are too many proponent of charter schools that are proponents for the sole fact that they believe they are inherently better than public schools when it's been quite well proven that, on a whole, they aren't. I'm only for choices in education, I just wish people would be for charters because they are another option, not because they are under the false assumption that they are somehow inherently better for children. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7931 Registered: 10-2003 |
The problem is that the charters have a choice as well. Imagine how well public schools could do if they could choose their students. Charters can close if the business model is not working. The issue is that as a society we have an obligation to educate all children or give them the opportunity. Charters do not follow that same mandate and can choose their students and close if the school, I mean business, is not doing as well as expected financially. If there is a mandate that charters can not close without state or local approval I would support them a little more. They have accountability as a business not as an educational institute. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4470 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jt1, very good point that often gets missed. Public schools don't have the convenience of being selective besides the star schools of the district (i.e. Cass Tech, Renaissance...) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1795 Registered: 07-2004 |
Not true Jt1.My relative travels to all the charters he oversees to make sure they are compliant.They are subject to the same regulations as any other public school.I of course am not an expert and what I tell you here is just from memory of a discussion I had last week with my relative. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7933 Registered: 10-2003 |
Cl - I don't doubt that they need to be compliant with certain rules and regulations to be allowed to operate. The issue is that there are no rules or regulations mandating that they stay open. If the financial burden or scores are becoming an issue that can't be overcome they can close shop. What if DPS decided that their scores weren't up to the targets they set and their business model wasn't being met. They certainly don;t have the luxury to just close up like the charters can and will. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 14 Registered: 09-2006 |
The fact that they dont have the luxury or threat of closing like the charters, can create a sort of complacency amongst the higher ups in the DPS administration, since most parents until recently did not have a choice as to where there children are educated. What was there incentive to improve upon the low tests scores or the financial inefficencies? Answer: there wasnt any. Or there was very little seeing as how the citizens of Detroit vehemetly oppsoed any state interference in the system (which also was ineffective.) Now with the charters competing for these same kids and with all the millions of dollars on the line, the charters can infact create some positive change in DPS since now students are no longer guaranteed to them they have to make themselves more competitive and desirable in order to remain functional. Which is going to be a tough task no doubt since most DPS schools cant be selective and there fighting the perception that charter and suburban schools are superior That is the only real advantage of the charters I see as neither a parent or (no longer) a student of DPS. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 570 Registered: 10-2003 |
The students should be viewed as customers by the teachers and the school district and I don't this this is the case. The customers are going to other schools districts because they have been treated poorly. Welcome to the competitive world. If DPS doesn't improve the service it delivers to its customer, it will go the way of GM, Ford and Chrysler. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 592 Registered: 11-2003 |
Post from Jt1: Best post on charters in awhile. DPS will never be able to reform if it is forced to deal every year with a loss of 10,000 or more students (apparently 25, 000 this year) All of their administrative resources are being used up with trying to figure what buildings to close. Charter schools are a cancer that was implanted within urban education and it is killing an entire school system. (And there's a lot of people making money off of the whole fiasco.) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1470 Registered: 10-2004 |
As it stands right now, if the numbers do not improve, approximately 20% of the number of students last year are not attending DPS this year. A decline of some 7% was expected. Obviously, this year's funding will not last through the end of the school year. So, it'll mean a premature adios for a number of teachers and staff. And, perhaps, closing more schools during this school year. The extra money to keep all of them open will surely not come from the state legislature. If anything, the state may have to resort to running the school district again. |
