  Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 10 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.215.244.78 |
I post this topic to find out good questions. Havent anyone notice that with the exceprion of Northland mall, all the inner-ring suburban malls are dying. Eastland is losing a store every other week. Universal is filled with vacancies all through its mall. Also, once one of the best inner-ring suburban malls in America, Wonderland is dead. then on the other hand, malls like Great alkes Crossing and Lakeside continue to grow. I want to get your opinion on this topic as soon aas possible | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5 |
Universal Mall has been dying for about the last 10 years. It baffles me that it's been able to stay open. Universals problem has always been the Oakland mall which is around 2.5 miles away. Back in the day Universal could survive as the Oakland Malls little brother, butI'm guessing it's been hard hit by stores like Meijer/Super K/Target and all the big box stores. It's been years since I've been to Universal, but there didn't appear to be many things being sold there that you couldn't pick up at Meijer. | ||
Cmubryan Member Username: Cmubryan Post Number: 291 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.10.215 |
Whatever made you think Northland is still vibrant? Unfortunately, they also have plenty of vacancy including a huge JCPenney store. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 611 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.227.219.108 |
Yes I noticed that less people shop at the downtown Hudsons as well. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1881 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
All of the traditional enclosed malls are dying across America. Unless the mall is a regional draw, like Somerset or Great Lakes Crossing, most folks would prefer to go to a strip mall or a mega-strip mall, refered to in the real estate industry as a Power Center. The reason for this seems to be that if there isn't a compelling reason to hang out for a long time (a la Somerset and Great Lakes), then they'd rather just park their car in front of the store, walk in and then drive away after making their purchase. Folks don't want to walk deep into a mall past several stores they don't care about just to get to the one store they do want to go to, even if they walk less than they would from the parking lot of a power center. Lakeside hasn't grown much over the past 20 years. They've managed to hang on to mostly quality retailers due to the demographics of the surrounding area, but they're about to get a run for their money with a new mall that's going in down Hall Rd. I think it's going to hit them hard. Another mall to add to the dying list is Fairlane. It's Lakeside's sister and is going down hard. Seems the redevelopment of West Dearborn and now Downtown Dearborn (East Dearborn) as well as all the strip malls further down the Southfield Fwy. are leading to its demise. P.S. Welcome to the forum Dtown1. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.238.44 |
Well I'll choose Northland anyday to shop before Eastland and Universal Mall. 3/4 of the stores in Univerasals are empty and nearly the eastern side of Eastland is all vacant. But don't worry, their are other bare spots in between. From what I seen, Northland was an ok shopping malls for Detroiters to go to. From what I saw, their werent any vacated stores around either. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1205 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
I agree, Bvos - this is not just a Detroit phenomenon. It happens as population shifts and spending habits change. The shopping centers and early malls that once decimated downtown retail districts have slowly suffered the same fate. Newer and larger suburban malls became the cool places to shop. Now, many of these malls have fallen out of favor with shoppers looking for convenience. Lifestyle centers and ‘urban’ shopping villages are presently taking business away from the once dominant mega malls – across the country. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 107 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.75.220.9 |
Well, technically Livonia isn't inner ring (is it?). But if you're going to consider Wonderland, you might as well add Livonia Mall to the list. Wonderland is completely dirt now (they have been working 7 days a week from what I can tell to clear the site), and Livonia Mall is under consideration for redevelopment. The only Livonia mall that seems to really prosper is Laurel Park Place, but I'm not sure why. It's probably because it contains mostly "higher-end" stores with Von Maur and Parisian as anchors. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1206 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
And it's hard to believe Fairlane went from retail mecca in the late '70s to a slowly dying mall - but it really has. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.238.44 |
It could also be a racial thing too, not to get stereotypical because I heard of people getting followed around the stores because of the way they look. Also, it may have to do with safety for the shoppers. In my opinion, The shoe is a shoe, no matter where you get it. Also, I heard that the nicer malls receive a larger selection of items that can be purchased. What's wrong with having a largerr selection for the Minorities who shop at the inner-ring suburban malls? | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1207 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
It is. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 13 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 68.40.119.216 |
Prices at the mall are usually higher than at other localities. The rents are outrageous. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 293 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.65.11.152 |
I HATE THAT! The women act like they never seen a good looking man before! | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 732 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.108.69.134 |
"What's wrong with having a largerr selection for the Minorities who shop at the inner-ring suburban malls?" Can you please tell me what is lacking from the inner-ring suburban malls for minorities? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 30 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.41.154.161 |
I recall in the early 80s when I was in middle school...going to the mall and spending top dollar for a Fila Jogging suit was a status symbol. Now paying too much for things is just seen as dumb. Universal is a cool mall, I think the Cinamark keeps it going, you shoulda seen the lines to get in and watch a $1.50 movie when the temps where over 95. Also the Waking Up Store is there, a good place to buy US made clothes for not too much. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1108 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.78 |
The nail in the coffin for Universal was the State's loss of Mervyn's stores. I would still go to the Mervyn's in Universal Mall because it was convenient and not as busy and trashed as the one on John R, near Oakland Mall. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.238.44 |
Well viziondetroit, Steve and Barry's, steve and Barry's at the Oakland Mall location is bigger than the one at Eastland. I'm sure they have more stuff there and don't sellout as fast. Also, my godmother/auntie was shopping for me a toy that shhe wanted to buy me when I was little, anyway, She called all the nearer stores to the city and they were all sold out. She had to go to the one all the way on 14 mile and John R. rd.(Toys R US). Also, the Toys R Us/Target that was at the Bel-Air Shopping Center always seem ran down and always did have a limited selection By the Way, when some store decides to get a new look, They always arrive to the city/minorities last when it come to remodeling their stores. (Message edited by Dtown1 on August 24, 2006) | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 3210 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
The Target at Belle Air was always packed full of merchandise and no shoppers after Christmas, and other times of the year I never had a problem finding what I needed there. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 140 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
It all economics, marketing, and store placement. Economics: Fairlane Town Center itself is showing its age, and with the Macy's merger was the first mall in our area to lose a duplactive store (Lord and Taylor). This has happened in several other markets, as one store owner does not need two stores in one mall. People are also switching their buying habits away from smaller chain stores such as Musicland/Sam Goody to larger Big Boxes such as Best Buy. The older malls were set up for Several Smaller Stores. Fairlane is getting an H & M Store, this should help reposition it pretty well when you also have a Steve and Barry's, a DSW Shoes and a Bally's (all which took out several stores to form one in order to compete with the big boxes. Saks also repositioned its store here to be an outlet store. Marketing, Somerset Mall (still a first generation mall, look at the distance this mall is from Royal Oak, Clawson, and Birmingham) was able to grow under this period. Interestingly enough as it grew, it did not take business away from Oakland Mall. Oakland Mall is slowly placing itslef to be more of a Fairlane mall, in that these used to be the premier malls until Somerset expanded. Unfortunately, there is only so much room in this market for yupscale retail. Some may argue that 12 Oaks was on par with Fairlane and higher up than Oakland, but remember 12 Oaks always had a Sears so its no Somerset, and never had a Saks so it was never a Fairlane. Placement: Big Boxes are moving out of the mall and into large sites that are better suited for those who patronize them (people who drive up and buy in bulk). If you will notice while Fairlane Mall is going through some major changes, and the number of stores are decreasing, retail in the Fairlane area is growin leaps and bounds. Power Centers Such as Fairlane North, Fairlane Meadows, Independance Green, and Fairlane South (or whtever it is called up on top of the dump) added several million square feet of retail to the immediate market area. Fairlane is unique among the inner ring mall areas in that it had room to put these big boxes. It also has more population density by them then lets say 12 Oaks or Great Lakes where similar big boxes shadow the larger mall. Interstingly enough Walmart owns two stores at Fairlane North that they let sit mothballed (the old Super K and the old Sam's Club). I assume that this is to keep competition away from them such as Meijers, yet they do not want to operate these stores themselves. The older smallr malls can survive, but they need someone with some vision and marketing skills to get into them and do the right thing. This may invovleve major reconstruction of these malls, to add in the right tennant mix, but the players and footplates have changed. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 17 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.238.44 |
It wasnt the same at the Toys R US, always had problem finding certain things and toys. However, I would go to the one in roseville and I would always find what I was looking for. Plus, if they were always packed full of item, then how could they have after gone out of business. That Target also had poor service. That Target never sold my size clothing and had a limited selection of both toys and electronics. | ||
Cmubryan Member Username: Cmubryan Post Number: 292 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.246.123.2 |
12 Oaks, Fairlane and Lakeside are all sister malls. They were all built by Taubman in the late 1970s and look fairly similar. Even their department stores resemble eachother. However they all have kind of taken on the face of the community with 12 Oaks becoming more of a higher-end mall it was completely renovated a few years ago and is getting a Nordstrom, and expanded Hudsons/Macys. Fairlane has become more of an "urban" store mall catering more to urban fashions and less to higher end clothing (loss of Saks and Lord and Taylor). | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1209 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
IMO the new big-box retail surrounding Fairlane and in neighboring Allen Park will accelerate the decline of the mall. Shoppers will be replaced by more loiterers which has been the case for at least a decade. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 503 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
It doesn't help that certain malls ban teens after certain hours unless accompanied by a parent. Teens don't have the transportation to go from strip mall to strip mall yet they can't shop at Fairlane (which is where most of my students go) after certain hours. The kids say Northland sucks (their words). Teens are a huge consumer of clothing and other items but if they don't have access to it after certain hours, then sales go down. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.249.238.44 |
So now the once great Fairlane Mall is slowly, but surely dying from yall perspective hysteria and bryan? | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1210 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
Yes. When completed, I believe Fairlane Town Center was one of the five largest malls in the U.S. and certainly the premier shopping attraction in Michigan. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 58 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.233.37 |
I guess since all the inner ring malls are in decline, it's a good idea to build a new mall in the inner ring suburbs, right? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 141 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
hmm a Nordstom's at 12 Oaks? shows you how often I get too the burbs! Will this be built next to the L & T? There is a good spot there to expand the mall. I don't think that Fairlane is dying. It is repositioning, would H & M or that yuppie kids store (is it Ambercrombie? which is the one that looks like a hut, that you have to step up to step down) locate in a dying mall? (Message edited by Detroitplanner on August 24, 2006) | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 504 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I remember when they were building Fairlane...we didn't live too far away from it. When it opened we were there. As teens, that was the preferred mall. It had everything for anyone's taste. We also were allowed to sit on the walls and scope out the boys (who were also there to scope out the girls). We could go ice skating, catch a movie and shop all at once. Mom would drop us off for ice skating lessons and while we were doing that, she would shop. Fiarlane once offered tons of stuff to do as well as buy. I see none of that anymore. Might be another reason it's slowly fading out. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2125 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
Milwaukee, you need to learn how to read in context. Inner ring large scale enclosed malls are dying. Inner ring strip malls are doing great and are still being built all over the inner ring suburbs. There is a shift in the type of malls people are using. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4886 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
Symptoms of Dying shopping mall: 1. NO ANCHOR STORES 2. LACK OF MALLRATS LIKE KIDS AND TEENAGERS. 3. LACK OF ENTERTAINMENT PERFORMANCES 4. MORE RESTRICTIVE CURFEWS 5. COMPETITIVE SHOPPING DISTRICTS 6. COMMUNITY BOYCOTTS It happen to Wonderland, Tel Twelve and Universal Malls. Everbody thinks that shopping malls never dies, but it can. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1216 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
Lakeside is getting emptier by the day... i dont know why you think it is vibrant... every 3rd store or so is empty. | ||
Wirt Member Username: Wirt Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 64.243.32.9 |
What about Summit Place / Pontiac Mall? Here is a near-outer ring suburb that is just wasting energy staying open. The surrounding big box plaza is almost in the same situation (exodus to great lakes crossing). Oakland Mall is still hanging on - but still does not know what it wants to be. The Fairlane Plaza on Ford Road is in dire straits. I agree with the decline of the malls mentioned by others. I think these are symptoms of our overall economy and not just the effects of the nicer mall, etc. down the road. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4887 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
Yes, Summit Place Mall is on the verge of dying. Great Lakes Crossing really gobbled all the customers up. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1083 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Danny is correct. Summit Place is dead, it has been dead for almost 10 years now. They had a redevelopment plan to tear down a lot of the mall and replace it with a more strip mall set-up with the department stores that are left to become stand-alone stores. But the Great Lakees Crossing area sucked away all the business and customers. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 53 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 207.230.140.240 |
Let's also remember that malls like Fairlane were destinations. When it opened up, I was a teenager and we went every Saturday. Now, with the change in entertainment and shopping tastes, the big malls like Fairlane et al are sure to die. And don't forget about online shopping as well as the price of gas. Why leave the house when you can buy most anything that you could find at a mall in the comfort of your own home. If you do venture out, you're going to the closer place, thanks to $3 a gallon gas. BTW - Detroitteacher, where were you scoping out the guys at Fairlane, because me and my friends were scoping out the girls and I must have missed you! My loss. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1211 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
Lakeside will also have trouble when Partridge Creek opens. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4281 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 66.99.114.250 |
For the most part, inner ring suburbs are chock-a-block with old fogies who never buy anything. dtown, welcome to Forum. The Canadians save Oakland Mall. It is their top tourist attraction in Michigan. That's how they get across the Border so damn fast. Livonia is an inner ring suburb. It touches Detroit. Fairlane Mall eliminated the tram and let Black people shop there. Too big mistakes in Dearborn. jjaba tells it like it tis. The Malls killed downtown Detroit shopping. Now they are eating themselves. Like Hudson's site, turned into highest best use, an underground parking lot. That's the future of Eastland and Northland. The above is all's you gotta know about Detroit suburban malls. jjaba, got his first haircut at Hudsons in a horsie chair, about 1943, after the trip downtown on the old Oakman streetcar via Woodward car. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 764 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Gotcha, Jjaba. Livonia does NOT touch Detroit. Redford Township is a buffer, like it or not. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha! And you thought I was sleeping............  | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 734 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.108.69.134 |
"Fairlane Mall eliminated the tram and let Black people shop there. Too big mistakes in Dearborn. jjaba tells it like it tis. " interesting... expand this theory please | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1212 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
From Ford's website: On April 13, 1973, Ford Motor Company announced plans to explore a new transportation segment – the elevated, automated “people movers” popularized at amusement parks like Disneyland. Ford plans called for research center near Ann Arbor, Mich., and a mile-long pilot at the Fairlane shopping center developed by Ford adjacent to the company’s world headquarters in Dearborn, Mich. Global planners in the early 70s forecast a potentially huge market for the systems, in which small driverless vehicles are directed by computer along a fixed guideway. While the number of cars and stations would vary, the systems were touted widely as the ideal transit solution for downtown, university and airport environments. Fairlane’s Automatically Controlled Transportation (ACT) system opened in 1976 and carried more than a million passengers. But Ford lost money building a second system in Connecticut, as people mover projects elsewhere bogged down in overruns and political snarls. The once-rosy market failed to materialize and Ford closed down its ACT development office before the Fairlane system opened. The elevated guideway that linked the shopping center to a nearby Hyatt Regency Hotel was razed in 1988. I think removing the tram had very little to do with the fading vibrancy of the mall. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 108 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.75.220.9 |
Redford promotes itself as "The Gateway to the Suburbs" I haven't figured out yet whether that's a positive thing or not. At least it's not as bad as Taylor's welcome signs: "A Downriver Community". Though that's probably the best thing I could say about Taylor too. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1782 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.177.31 |
As Chris Rock put it, "There's the white mall and then there's the mall white folks used to go to." Fairlane, Northland, and Eastland are the "used to go to" malls. He said that years ago, but the reality is: he's right. Once suburban whites become uncomfortable with the increase in the number of minorities shopping at the mall, especially teenagers, they usually stop shopping there. These suburban whites then move further out and the stores, in new malls, follow them. Then as more minorities start shopping at these stores in the new malls, the suburban whites get uncomfortable again and stop shopping there. In 10 years folks on this forum will be talking about Great Lakes Crossing in the same vain as we are talking about Northland, Eastland, and Fairlane today. At some point the cycle has to stop. In a way it has. These power/lifestyle centers are a way for whites to avoid having to confront minorities. No longer do they have to walk through a gauntlet of minority teens at the mall. Pull up to the store you want to go to and get back in your car before anybody notices. Well, that's my take on it. Anyone care to disagree? | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1213 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
That is true. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 505 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Quote: BTW - Detroitteacher, where were you scoping out the guys at Fairlane, because me and my friends were scoping out the girls and I must have missed you! My loss. We scoped everywhere, mostly on the wall of the 1st floor by the info booth. This was the very late 70s, early 80s. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7785 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Retail in this region is very strange. It seems to me that most areas have retail follow residential. Last year I was out up in the northern burbs (25-30 MIle road and Van Dyke area). While there is a decent amount of people there are also some gaps of open space. Retail was actually leading residential in some areas as a ton of strip malls were being built with out the housing going up around it. I'm sure the area will all be built out in a few years but I have always thought businesses, etc followed residential. In our back woods region retail is now anticipating growth and beating the residential to some spots. Seems strange to me | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 507 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I avoid malls like Fairlane because many of my students go there. I love my students to death but I don't appreciate it when I am mauled while shopping, by a group of students (not to mention my students then know what I am buying...it's just not cool for one's students to see one's undergarments, in any fashion). Prior to my becoming a teacher, I frequented Fairlane alot. It was the same way at Wonderland. I do see avoidance of teens and minorities alot. I've watched white women clutch their purses when a group of minority teens walk by (the kids notice it too). I think it was the screaming of these adults that led to the curfews in malls. While I don't mind teens/minorities/crazy mothers with strollers while I am shopping, it's nice to be able to get in my car, drive to the store I want to patronize and then get the heck out. I am not a shopper and find malls to be hectic and crazy. If I only shop at 3 stores within a mall, I don't see a need to park in the hellish lot, battle tons of people, etc. Now if it were like it was back in the good old days where malls had a variety of goods for all tastes (at Fairlane one could find punk/rustic/frufru/club/work attire all under one roof). I don't see that now. Seems malls cater to a specific demographic depending on the type of clientelle they wish to attract. | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.174.38.160 |
The last time I visited my hometown, Westland Shopping Center (or is it now Westland Mall?) had a Marshall Fields store and the whole mall seemed vibrant in my opinion. Of course you know Westland city was named after the mall. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 511 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Westland mall is always packed. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 31 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 75.10.91.78 |
In general as a society we are less likely to wanna hang out. Personal computers, Cable TV and Home gaming systems provide more to do without leaving the house. Heck! teenagers today can even meet the love of thier lives online in the 'my space' pages. They don't have to go to the malls or Catholic School Dances to meet girls /guys like we did. Also, before there was X box, there were these huge arcades, most malls had 'em; Tel 12's Time Zone Arcade was my fave. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 576 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.167.153.130 |
This quote from Detroitteacher prompted a few thoughts. First, while teens might be huge consumers of clothing, they pretty much consume a very narrow type of clothing, i.e., jeans, t-shirts, urban casual hip-hop etc., and teen fashions are not shopping attractions to most of the rest of the population. A large mall cannot survive by targeting teen consumers. They may have money, but not enough to support a mall. Second, teens often like to congregate in groups larger than family-sized groups. And in their groups, they are often manner-less and inconsiderate of other shoppers. Consumers are fickle and need positive shopping experiences or else they will go elsewhere. An overabundance of teens can make this difficult for mall owners. Third, because there is a tipping point of a level of teen activity that will drive away adult shoppers who are actually spending money, I have no problem with private landlords establishing curfews for underage persons. Fourth, many white folks definitely reveal racist attitudes when they change their shopping routines to avoid malls that have significant black patronage. But, having said that, it cannot be denied that, at least when it comes to clothing, black folks and white folks often have different interests which can lead to shopping in different places. While I'm glad to see a lot of locally owned clothiers trying to make a go of it at places like Northland, Eastland and Oakland Mall, most of them are targeting black consumers. If the Marshall Fields/Macy's is the only store in a mall offering fashions for the typical white shopper, it will get difficult to attract that shopper to that mall. It's a difficult retailing dilemma though. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing. On the other hand, a Sears is a Sears. The skin tone of the typical customer shouldn't make a difference to a white shopper. | ||
Pamequus Member Username: Pamequus Post Number: 74 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 158.229.218.204 |
Hmmmm, wonder why Westland keeps on pluggin' along? It's an older than dirt mall, was there when I was still there and that was a long time ago. Here in Tallahassee we have two malls, both do fairly well, one a bit better than the other. We all shop at both, regardless of national origin or race. No place else to go!!! To comment on the large groups of black kids....I've run into those, some with great manners and some I'd like to turn over my knee and paddle, as my Mom would have said. That is no more than upbringing. White kids do the same. However, if the kids, black or white, are showing behavior patterns that are uncomfortable for me I have every right to tuck my purse closer to me. If it hurts their feelings then it's time they looked at themselves for the reasons. I shouldn't be expected to change my reaction to their poor behavior. That has nothing to do with race but has a great deal to do with respect for each other and some good old common sense. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1083 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.153.103.15 |
I just find it funny that street shopping was big (pre super-mall days), then enormous malls were all the rage, and now malls are dying and being replaced by "streetscape malls" that try to replicate old, intimate, downtown street shopping centers. Just moved far out of downtown. If that's what people like, why aren't downtown shopping districts thriving? Why make a fake one if you can have the real thing. The unfortnate thing about super malls is that when they die, it becomes this enormous eyesore nobody can miss. An obvious spot of blight that can have a very psychological effect on people in the area and their residents. My GF's sister lives in harper woods, so we often go to Eastland. I HATE it. It isn't the mall itself or the people who shop there. Its that it FEELS dead and deserted. At least to me, part of the fun of shopping (when i actually go) is the crowd, the bustle, and the feeling of activity and it being a happening place. Not too exciting to shop at a store that feels dead. I suppose it is just the way the pickle squirts. The new has always put the hurt on the old. It just becomes more noticable somewhere like Michigan because it keeps moving outwards without new residents (immigration) keeping the infill populated and the stores running. I'm still amazed at all the vacant strip malls (including K Mart sized places) that are strewn all over metro detroit. Its ridiculous sometimes. And to think they're building more someplace else just makes it worse. But don't think it is just a Michigan problem. I grew up in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Mid sized town that has experienced some of the most rapid growth in the US over the past decade. We got a small little regional or maybe even local mall there in the early 90's. Had the usual sears, Penney's, Bon Marche, etc. Not a bad place for a mid sized town. If any of you have shopped at Holland, MI's mall, its about like that. Well, today that place is struggling. I can't stand shopping there. Then they opened a great mall with movie theaters, big and bright, in the Spokane Valley (WA) about 30-35 miles away. The difference at the Silver Lake Mall was amazing. The place just fell off a cliff. Everyone would drive the extra miles to Spokane Valley. And why not? More entertainment, more bustle, more stores. Easy access from I90. Actually I've heard that new mall I think on 44th (??) in Grand Rapids had a similar effect to the Holland mall. Unfortunately I think it happens everywhere, just made worse by a poor economic period and sprawl without population growth. (Message edited by Jerome81 on August 24, 2006) | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1215 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
Downtowns aren't all dead. In the inner ring suburbs of many large cities malls are still dying, but many downtown retail districts once considered dead (due to these malls) have comeback with thriving retail and restaurant districts. Minneapolis and Denver come to mind. These areas both have mass transit, though. Also, many people like the atmosphere of a 'downtown' shopping area but are afraid of seeing 'undesirable' people, crime, lack of parking, etc. They then try to recreate this atmosphere in an area they deem safe and unthreatening. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 274 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.95.232.200 |
I think it is more with the US mentality of overbuilding retail. Inner ring suburban malls here in Toronto are strong and are restoring themselves in most cases. Inner ring suburban malls in Australia are not drying, and many other countries. The only reason malls are going in decline in the US is because the US continues to see pop flight to more distant suburbs. But in places where people are not fleeing every second, malls are doing fine. The US has the most retail per person in the world I believe. That is the only reason malls can't survive, because you have to much of them. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1696 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I second the notion. "Street" shopping remains fairly popular in DC, and is even improving. Georgetown is always a hot spot, but Chevy Chase (MD/DC) has had an upswing, and downtown retailing is on the rebound. The Dupont Circle and U Street areas have a lot of local and unique merchants. Then again, our population is stable, incomes are growing, and we have good public transportation and a high population density. This despite the ever-popular mall just across the Potomac at Pentagon City. Most cities in the U.S., though, are vortexes, spinning wildly out of control and everything flying to the outside while emptying the middle. The closer you are to the edge, the faster you're going to fly off the merry-go-round. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1217 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
Haha ... I can picture it. How true. | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 634 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
I think the changing retail landscape has a lot to do with it. Consider shoe stores. Each mall had a Kinney's, Flagg Brothers, Thom McCann, Father and Son, Bakers, Chandlers, and Mary Jane or derivitives on those brands, not to mention stores operated by Brown and other manufacturers. Most of these chains which exsisted when malls were first coming into vogue are now either out of business or in poor financial health. Every mall had a Cunninghams. They're gone. Rite Aid, CVS and Walgreens build stand alones now. Most every mall had a dime store. SSK, Woolworth and W.T. Grant are no more. Music store? Tower just went banko, Sam Goodys is no more. If companies like these, the old standbys, are gone, who is going to fill the space? Not the independent, they can't afford the rent or common charges. That's where old downtowns like Ferndale, and Royal Oak come in. They tend to be more vibrant, creative, and have cheaper rent. The merchant is not paying a common fee, the city generally takes care of the sidewalk and parking, and he can usually do his thing without having to worry about competetive restrictions that are common in mall leases. Because of the economics, new downtown merchants tend to be able to nitch market (sorry, I can't spell neiche), or offer unique items that don't require a constant traffic flow by the door but draw customers to the store because of their uniqueness. If you look closely, this is where urban downtowns are heading..... | ||
Mjb3 Member Username: Mjb3 Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.145.154.7 |
Dying inner ring malls and white flight sprawl go hand in hand. It took CofD nearly 50 yrs to empty out, the first-ring suburbs(Warren, Sfield, Redford,) will go much quicker 10-15 yrs. As Chris Rock put so eloquently: "Every town I go to has 2 malls. The mall where the white people go and the mall where the white people USED to go." | ||
Ha_asfan Member Username: Ha_asfan Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 69.14.17.198 |
I grew up doing street shopping: Downtown Hudsons, Huges, Hatcher & Suffrin, Lothrop and Second and Livernois. Then it was Northland which was, in those days, still street shopping as the mall had not yet been enclosed. Enclosing Northland was a total turnoff for me. Tel-12 and Somerset were nice as they were small and manageable....these days, ALL of my shopping is done back on the street with the exception of the Apple store at Somerset. Some people would argue that shopping at the old grand department stores such as JL Hudson was in fact, shopping at an indoor mall as anything you could possibly want was available. I don't buy it. If it weren't for Ferndale, a few spots in Royal Oak and even fewer in B'ham....I don't think I would shop at all. It would be great to see all of the mall businesses return to the street. And certainly, this mall failure is not a Detroit thing....Beverly Center in LA has been failing for years and across the country, mall failure is common. You'd think some developer out there might get the hint ??? People want human scale buildings with human scale businesses, not mega malls. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 275 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.95.232.200 |
Malls and stores in general are in trouble, because we build to many of them. Do you need a GAP in every mall, only 10min drives from each other? From my house in Toronto, I can drive to 6 GAPS within 20min of my house, including one that is like 5min from my house. This is the problem today. We just have way to many malls and they all can't survive. Its time to just have one store for each company. We have a famous discount store here in Toronto called HONEST EDS. Its downtown, and people have asked Ed Mirvish to open up Honest Eds as a chain and have stores everywhere. And his comment was if you want to shop at Honest Ed's you have to come downtown to his only store, because once you open more then one store its not the same. And he has it right. Honest Ed's is going stron even with Walmart, etc in the landscape. Yet many chain stores are just hanging by, because they have way to many locations. Shut down the malls. There was never even a need for Northland Mall or Eastland Mall, considering both malls are not even 15min away from downtown Detroit on the freeway. Same for Fairlane Town Centre. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4229 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Bvos really hit is on the head with his first post in this thread. It's not a Detroit phenomenon. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 190 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
We are seeing lots of empty shopping centers and malls even in small towns and rural areas. It’s time to stop expanding our freeways and building even more malls further out like the Great Lakes Mall. It’s time for all to take serous action on this and get the leadership in Lansing we need to save our cities and inner suburbs with affordable public transit with the fourth passage of the SMART bus tax. Otherwise, our state will be the Great Malls State instead of the Great Lakes State. (Message edited by Trainman on August 24, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4233 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.177.81.18 |
Quit it, just quit it for the love of God and everything good. | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 635 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Miketoronto.... ....keep in mind that The Gap, Old Navy and Pier 1 are not doing very well either. Someone mentioned the emergence of strip malls again. True. Companies like Craft Warehouse, Famous Footware, Old Navy, Staples and Office Depot are trending towards either freestanding stores or purpose built strip centers. Smaller, older strip centers are tending to attract Chiropractors, Dentists, Beauty Salons, Real Estate offices and the like that may need the visibility but not the foot traffic past the front door. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 276 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.72.41 |
Douglasm I know those companies are not doing good. And I think its because they have to many stores. Anyway suburban malls are not dead and will not die. They will have their niche. Actually I will try to dig it up, but there was an article in the Toronto Star on how suburban malls are restoring themselves and are not in decline like people make them sound, and how many suburban malls still have the highest sales figures per sq foot. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 277 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.72.41 |
Here is the article. I found it. From the Toronto Star. ------------- Malls see bright future Yorkdale, Square One are renovating Shrugging off department-store turmoil Who says the traditional shopping mall is dead? Both Yorkdale Shopping Centre and Mississauga's Square One are in the middle of major renovation projects. Owner Oxford Properties Corp. plans to spend $74 million over the next two to three years. "This is a particularly large investment because it's part of a larger program," Paul Brundage, executive vice-president of real estate management for Oxford Properties, said yesterday. The malls are among $6 billion in real estate Oxford owns or manages on behalf of the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System, a big pension fund for civic employees. Both malls have added extra space in recent years. Now they're upgrading existing space. "It's like your house. You have to invest to preserve the value of the asset," Brundage said. It's also part of keeping up with changing times in retail. In recent years, the traditional shopping mall has faced competition from online retailers and suburban power centres. Now, the mall is grappling with turmoil in department stores with ownership changes at Hudson's Bay Co. and Sears Canada. But Brundage said the fallout may present an opportunity for the malls. The country's last two department-store chains have traditionally acted as "anchors" for mall owners. But increased competition from American big-box retailers and European specialty chains has hurt department-store sales. "It's a very dynamic environment," said Brundage. "Obviously, we're monitoring both HBC and Sears very closely. We see it as an opportunity for us to possibly get that real estate back and re-merchandise it with different types of tenants that would prefer to be in an enclosed mall." The situation varies from mall to mall, he added. A Bay store in one mall could be a strong performer, while a Bay store in another mall may perform poorly. Supermarket chains are looking at going back into malls, he added. Oxford Properties recently signed a deal with Loblaw Cos. Ltd. to build a grocery store on the lot outside the Scarborough Town Centre. At Square One, upgrades include better flooring, lighting and so-called street furniture, or the seating outside the stores. But the biggest improvement will be in the signage and other visual cues. "We're a very large mall, and the biggest complaint we get from customers is it's difficult to get around," said Square One general manager Nance MacDonald. The mall is being visually divided into three distinct "environments" intended to help customers find their way around, she said. At Yorkdale Shopping Centre, the older part of the mall is being upgraded to look and feel more like the $60 million addition that opened last April, said general manager Jay Lee. With a six-storey glass atrium, limestone floors, benches and real trees, the newer section is like an upscale city street. The addition houses 40 new stores, including the city's first Apple Computer store. "We had incredible results with the new addition," said Yorkdale's Lee. "We wanted to build on that momentum." Both mall managers played down concern about Sears and the Bay. Even if the department stores left, the malls would have no trouble renting the space to other retailers, said Square One's MacDonald. Many new retail concepts that come to Canada open their first stores in the Greater Toronto Area and quickly move to the biggest malls, particularly fashion-driven retailers and chains aimed at teens, MacDonald said. Cheap-chic European fashion retailers Zara and H&M and cosmetics specialty chain Sephora are classic examples. Some retailers have learned they fare better in a traditional shopping mall than either online or in suburban power centres, MacDonald said. Malls appeal to younger shoppers because they can get there by public transit instead of going by car to the power centre with Mom and Dad, she noted. As well, in the fashion world, online retailers can't compete with the ability to touch and feel an item before buying it, she said. | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 160.39.244.210 |
Yeah. I bet you see loads of teens taking the Hall Road SMART bus to Lakeside. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1218 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
The popular suburban mall where I live recently lost an anchor - Marshall Field's (will not become Macy's because L.S. Ayres there became Macy's). Anyway, they are tearing it down and building an outdoor village of shops (chain stores, of course) surrounding the mall entrance. The lovely streetscape will have a view of the former Hudson's/Marshall Field's parking lot and the Indiana Toll Road. Puke. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 359 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.248.15.85 |
EBay. QVC. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 444 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.194.88.24 |
I think its interesting to note what Chicago has done with "mall"-type centers. Especially along North Ave. in Lincoln Park, there are quite a few mall-ish developments. This is the place to go in the city to find stores that typically exist only at malls (without going to Michigan Ave. with the tourists). These developments have little to no lot parking, are built to the curb, and the whole cluster of them is centered right in between the Red and Blue CTA lines. It's the perfect blend of what people want: suburban "one-stop shopping" with urban accessibility. | ||
Ericdfan Member Username: Ericdfan Post Number: 131 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.41.116.2 |
Fairlane is holding its own...I worked at the Radio Shack there for 3 years...the curfew was instated mainly because there were too many kids loitering and not buying anything...We all know that 80% of fairlanes clientel are detroiters. Those detroit teens that came there don't have much or any money so they would get bored and cause trouble...Fairlane had a good a rough time in the late 80's and early 90's as a there was a lot of gang activity there...It survived that...I dont think its one mall that will ever close, just constantly reinveneted.. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1219 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I hope it doesn't close, Ericdfan. Funny how a great deal of this discussion has focused on Fairlane. The mall rats of the early 1980s shopped at the Fairlane Town Centre that was so HUGE and totally invincible as far as competition in the area. Saks, Hudson's, Lord & Taylor ... It was understandably Taubman's crown jewel (or was Cherry Creek???) ... Anyway, the surrounding environment also made it seem more important than other malls of its era. Now look at it! So sad ... The older generations must feel the same about Northland, and I am sorry to hear that Eastland is suffering. I haven't been there in a while. I thought they reconfigured and readjusted store layouts and locations successfully? How great it must have been when it opened. There was a great thread earlier in the year about Eastland memories. Really neat ... | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 79 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 68.252.8.170 |
I remember when Lakeside opened. It was in the middle of a corn field on a two lane road. Now it is one of the busiest strips in the state. I avoid it like the plague. People use to go to Lakeside and spend the day walking around shopping, eating, movies, etc. Now I don't personally know anyone that shops there. Who has time to lull around the mall. I prefer stand alone stores where I am in and out quickly. Once in a while I go to Sears for a tool, especially now since they closed the Sears Hardware stores. Luckily, Kmart is stocking some Craftsman tools now. BTW has anyone noticed the Kmart in Rochester is now "Sears Essentials"? What's that about? Is it a mini-Sears? | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1221 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Ugh. There's a Sear's Essentials where I live too and it sucks. I think they're replacing all of these stores with a different concept in the future. KMart Holdings/Sears retail management is SOOOO poor (shoulda kept the brains in Troy!). Cambrian's post #31 above about the new anti-social society is actually quite true ... much of this is the post 9/11 lifestyle. I am guilty of it and so are many people I know! | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 324 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 12.75.18.168 |
Wash-man, Sears Essential is a kind of Kmart/Sears hybrid store. They turned the Kmart at 10 Mile and Dequindre into a Sears Essential also. I've only been in there a few times, but each time I noticed the store was practically empty. When it was a Kmart, there were customers all over the place. As for malls, I hardly ever go to them anymore except to do my Christmas shopping. Even then, I don't buy much. The malls simply don't have a lot of stuff that I want to buy, either for myself or for other people. And if a mall does have a particular item that I want to buy, such as a CD or a DVD, I can usually get the same thing cheaper somewhere else. I did like the Mervyn's at Universal Mall. They had a nice selection of children's clothes there, and the store was cleaner and neater than the one on John R. But Mervyn's is gone now, along with just about everything else at Universal. About racism... Yeah, I know a lot of white folks who stopped shopping at Northland because they were afraid to be around large groups of black teenaged boys. But even before Northland turned into a mall that white people used to go to, my family never went there because Oakland and Universal Malls were closer to home. I do know one person who continued to shop at Northland because their Hudson's had more magenta and purple clothes than the Hudson's at any of the white malls. Another reason why white middle class people avoid certain malls is because so many of the once-nice stores have turned into places that sell cheap junk. For example, at Oakland Mall the store once occupied by the upscale Ganto's is now a Rainbow clothing store. (Or at least it was the last time I went there.) Middle class people, regardless of their skin color or ethnic origins, don't buy their clothes at Rainbow. Similarly, Universal Mall's old Crowley's store turned into a Value City. I don't know if Shopper's World has made its way into any of the malls, but middle class people don't shop there, either. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 24 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.73.52.13 |
I do want to poitn this out, white people do use the inner-ring suburban malls when they first open as a track for exercise and maybe something from Macy's(Marshall Fields). Like Eastland for example. | ||
Pdtpuck Member Username: Pdtpuck Post Number: 186 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 208.251.168.194 |
Hollister | ||
Erichp77 Member Username: Erichp77 Post Number: 201 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 75.10.24.71 |
*I don't know if Shopper's World has made its way into any of the malls, but middle class people don't shop there, either.* Hold your horses kiddo!! The only two Shopper's World I know of are in the Detroit/Highland Park area on Woodward and one Hamtramck! I bought my very first rake at Shopper's World and it was a damn good rake too!! I also liked how they had fabulous sales on jeans. Don't go rippin on my Shopper's World!!! | ||
Humanmachinery Member Username: Humanmachinery Post Number: 22 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 172.145.64.10 |
Quote: ------------------------------ ------------ I recall in the early 80s when I was in middle school...going to the mall and spending top dollar for a Fila Jogging suit was a status symbol. Now paying too much for things is just seen as dumb. ------------------------------ --- Oh, kids certainly still do that, but most people grow out of that when they reach a certain age. Kids also don't need to go to a mall to pay too much for trendy clothes now. That's why downtown Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Berkley have flourished. | ||
Dfd Member Username: Dfd Post Number: 102 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 216.68.225.2 |
What has been the impact of on-line shopping on all the retail stores? | ||
Elevator_fan Member Username: Elevator_fan Post Number: 14 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 65.42.41.61 |
I disagree with the statement that the closing of the Fairlane people mover did not affect mall traffic. A huge number of people used to commute between the hotel and the mall. There were lengthy waits to board the people mover. Lunch was served at the rotating restaurant atop the Hyatt, and there were always lines waiting to get up there. When the people mover was torn down, all that segment of clientele went away. Not only from the mall, but from the hotel as well. Those were upper-end types, too. When they went away, Saks changed its store format, Bally's left the mall, and Lord & Taylor started its downward slide. The Hyatt's restaurants, formerly bustling with activity, are now devoid of people most days. The Rotisserie restaurant, the Rotunda on top, and the db's nightclub are not even operating as restaurants any more, but rather as meeting space. Sad. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 325 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 12.75.22.101 |
ErichP77, I didn't mean to rip on Shopper's World. I've bought stuff at their Hamtramck store myself. I used to go to the one in Ferndale too, back when it still existed. (The Hamtramck store is a lot nicer.) But middle and upper-middle income folks who shop at Somerset don't go to stores like that, especially when they're buying clothes. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1316 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I'm surprised at the obvious: It took literally dozens of posts in this thread before there was a query to the effect of the internet on the dying brick-and-mortars. For one thing, there are still way too many stores for a dying economic entity like Metro Detroit. I can often purchase whatever I want through the internet and get free S&H thrown in also. And it saves lots of time and money. There's little need to head out to some mall where I could get mauled myself in the process. With their shoving, purposeful bumping, and fights, some malls can be considered zoos in their own right, especially near their food courts. But there are other economic forces in play here that are far more powerful and difficult to overturn. No marketing effort could help for these factors. When young and middle-aged adults cannot find decent employment here, they obviously leave for elsewhere and quite naturally take their children with them. The ripple-effect from this should be easy to predict: Fewer jobs due to the economic multiplier, fewer families with kids, fewer school students, fewer teachers needed, and any local commerce catering to its residents will easily get caught up with this and also wither on the vine. So stores go out of business. Lots of stores are going broke, even in the the less-worse off SW Detroit and inner burbs. This is more of a regional thing, affecting the Northeast US in general, especially the Great Lakes states. People are leaving permanently there for jobs and better climes, and not just the weather, but to where the populace is better educated and less antibusiness. At some point, you got to sleep in your own beds, no matter what, or start out somewhere else. The latter seems to be the factor that's currently in play here. Every ten-year Census, the obvious is revealed for those who weren't paying attention. Still more Congressional Districts here will be lost to the South and Southwest--meaning people have and will be bailing out. It's all intertwined. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 284 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.145.94 |
Internet has almost no effect. The majority of people still like to touch and feel before buying. Studies have shown internet shopping has had very little effect on retail stores, and actually less effect then peopel thought it would have had. As for the North East. The North East is the richest area in the USA. The North East USA still has the highest income levels in the entire USA. Not everyone is leaving, and not everyone is poor and down and out. Malls are not dying. It may be a regional thing, but like I said, here the malls are packed, adding new stores, reviving, etc. Far far from dying off. The US just over builds. METRO Detroit has hardly grown in the past 20 years, yet you keep building more malls(Great Lakes, etc). Thats why your malls are dead, because you keep building more in an area that is not growing or hardly growing. | ||
Ericdfan Member Username: Ericdfan Post Number: 134 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.41.116.2 |
A lil off topic, but... Thats a problem that I have with Americans nowdays. I realize that using the internet saves money and time, but its also contributes to laziness. The arguement that I simply don't have time to go out is valid in some cases, but where does it end? Eventually the ppl that claim to be too busy when the do have some extra time they will just sit at the computer anyway. I personally enjoy going out shopping once in a while, its an adventure to me. I like actually seeing and touching what im buying. I'm the kind of person who doesn't like waiting to get what I want, either. The internet is great, but I also do not not like using credit cards, which is another form of laziness, but I'm not going into that. I might be crazy, but I perfer to use cash when I buy something...ok i'm babbling now I guess the point I was trying to make is that we are getting way 2 lazy and I think thats one of the 5 tops reasons for the decine of the american ecomony...and that is something that we can only fix ourselves.. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 285 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.145.94 |
Ericdfan for sure. Don't tell me people are to busy to shop or go out at night. Whatever. My family immigranted to Canada and worked harder then todays computer key pushers, and they managed to have time to even go downtown and spend the day shopping, etc, and go out for entertainment, etc. Today people have time, but we just treat everything as a chore. Soon people will not even have time to live. If you don't have time to friggen shop, then your life needs to be rebalanced. Life is more then working. | ||
Ed_golick Member Username: Ed_golick Post Number: 400 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.55.51 |
We are a lil 2 lazy as ppl, I guess, to type complete words. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 24.180.71.146 |
As apparently has happened near Hysteria, Genesee Valley in Flint also lost an anchor (Montgomery Wards) which was actually a relatively new addition to the mall (within about 10 years). After an attempt at marketing the space, they decided to tear it down and replace it with what they are calling 'Outdoor Village', which is essentially a small 'lifestyle center'. I suppose it's a reasonable solution to the problem, given the huge vacancy and the large lifestyle center going in a few miles down 75 in Grand Blanc, this allows them to fill that space AND compete (somewhat) in one move. Interestingly, Mervyns (built at the same time as the Wards addition) closed shortly after they began construction of outdoor village. Nothing has been said about how they plan on filling that space, other than they hope to do something 'different' with it than just on large anchor. Hopefully moves like this will keep at least some malls alive. Although i would prefer to shop in a traditional downtown store or even in a lifestyle center, i would hate to see a huge rotting hulk of a mall too. and i'm sure those stores won't be moving back downtown anyways - they'll just gobble up more land somewhere else. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 236 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Speaking of "a huge rotting hulk of a mall", the Dixie Square Mall in Harvey, Illinois, was once christened as The Best Dead Mall in America, after having been abandoned for over 20 years. The old mall buildings were recently demolished. A developer will be building a new shopping mall on the site, and has already secured some of the newer types of retail anchors for these times: Old Navy, Barnes and Noble, and Bed, Bath and Beyond. | ||
Steelworker Member Username: Steelworker Post Number: 718 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 75.10.1.205 |
Ive never understand why malls never became something of a small enclosed "downtown" of a city. more skylights, bars, people living there, restaurants, being open late. Even the possibility of opening skylights in summer for fresh air. Considering our weather in winter. Just my thoughts. | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 638 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
You know, one thing to consider is that some of the malls we're talking about are 40+ years old, and may have just worn out without being either revitalized or modernized. Arborland would be a good example of a suvirvor. I just looked at a picture of it and can't compare what is now a big box center with the small store mall I worked in in 1972..... | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1224 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Remember the scene from the Blues Brothers when the cops drove their cars through a mall? That was Dixie Creek Mall in Harvey. It was already vacant when the studio came in and magically transformed it back into a functioning shopping center. Steelworker, in warmer climates some of the new lifestyle centers are trying to recreate an atmosphere similar to what you're suggesting with new home/townhouse construction as part of the master plan. The only difference is that the shopping is outdoors. | ||
Steelworker Member Username: Steelworker Post Number: 722 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 75.10.1.205 |
yeah i think for us flexibility would be nice to open up little for summer here but mainly have it enclosed a city within itself. Not just shopping, but living. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 286 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.75.143 |
Why do you need a lifestyle centre trying to create a fake downtown, when you have a real downtown in Detroit waiting for people?????? Lifestyle centres are stupid. If people want a real street to shop on, go downtown. | ||
Moreta Member Username: Moreta Post Number: 269 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
The real downtown is not waiting for people. The real downtown has very few of the retail establishments for which the folks served by these 'lifestyle centers' are looking. If I need to pick up a power cable for my modem, a birthday present for my nephew, a few guitar picks, some knitting needles and a stylish new pair of boots for fall, do you really think downtown is waiting for me? | ||
Ericdfan Member Username: Ericdfan Post Number: 135 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.41.116.2 |
maybe not today, but it maybe will be someday and the internet is not important enuf to type comeplete words, as long as I get my point across thats all that matters to me. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1225 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Mike, I agree - and that's the irony of this topic in general. (Message edited by HYSTERIA on August 28, 2006) | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 287 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.146.72 |
Moreta believe it or not you could have gotten all that stuff in downtown at one time, and even more of a selection then these crappy suburban malls and lifestyle centres offer. Downtowns are waiting and if revived can offer more then a lifestyle centre ever can. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 46 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.251.225.52 |
I have a question. What is Downtown Chicago doing to keep shops in the city that we aren't. This probably is a obvious question, but I just want to know | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1320 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I can purchase items formerly sold at specialty (becoming ever more nonexistent today) "brick-and-mortars". If I want an old-time five-string banjo, I would order it in person from Spruce Tree in Madison WI or have them ship it via the internet. I've lived and worked but a couple blocks away from them, for example. But highly specialized stores like that only number a dozen or so across the country. I would not care to drive five hundred miles (1-way) for a high quality banjo. Detroiters are very fortunate in having a relatively large number of computer "warehouse" stores where one can purchase parts or units cheaply. Still, they're in the burbs, and not in the former downtown of Metro Detroit--the CBT. Because the groceries in SW Detroit are engaged in brutal competition, food is usually cheap there and for those items which aren't, it's but a short distance to those stores that discount even more heavily. But for most of what I purchase, the Internet offers far more variety, better prices, and there's no driving hassle. The internet segment of commerce is not miniscule, as one poster mentioned. It's still small but increasing at a rapid rate and that amount spent there comes at the expense of the few specialty stores left. The demographics show that the youth spend lavishly upon the internet and in time will continue doing so when their income becomes significantly greater than their current allowance levels. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 237 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
dear god: please make gasoline go above $5 a gallon. It will help us sort out our nasty mall problem... | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 24.180.71.146 |
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a viable downtown more than anything. However, so many seem to overlook the downfalls of downtown shopping areas - #1 being parking, not only is it relatively scarce, but you often have to pay for it on top of that. Malls solved this by creating acres of free parking lots. But then you had the problem of having to walk too far to a single store - a problem solved by strip malls, which you could park right in front of. Unfortunately those don't have the density of shops necessary to make it a shopping destination (has anyone else noticed that older strip malls are dying?). Now they have evolved into so-called 'lifestyle centers' which are little more than strip malls collected together with some nice landscaping. You can park near the store you want, and there's enough stores to give you a reason to stay and shop. A lifestyle center near me plans to have some office space on upper floors as well as ground floor retail. I wouldn't be surprised if as time goes on, more and more lifestyle centers include larger amounts of office space, and probably before long building parking garages and not long after that, loft apartments. the complete re-creation of downtown. The difference? better parking, better traffic control, it's closer to population centers, and it 'feels' safer (regardless of the reality). The good part of all this, is that if downtown areas (not just Detroit) can emulate a lot of this, they stand a chance to come back too. If anything, they could do even better than the lifestyle centers, because it actually has some soul, something malls, strip malls, and lifestyle centers have never had and never will. However, $5/gallon gas doesn't help anyone. I'm not going to drive downtown when I've got a mall a couple miles away. and I'll stick with the strip malls that are even closer if I can. but mostly, I'll just try to avoid spending money at all. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1702 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Scottr, rethink your post without the assumption that you have to drive to such a place, and you've just described a traditional neighborhood. Funny how "progress" brings us back full circle, huh? | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 24.180.71.146 |
Hey, I agree fully, Danindc, that's why I mentioned they'll probably eventually include residential in these lifestyle centers, although retail will remain the focus, not residential. The difference IS the parking - because this day in age, most people still will have to drive to such a place - they don't WANT to live right next to retail. Trying to pretend we can create some sort of place where you never have to drive is folly, at least today. But who knows what the future will bring... | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1226 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
There are too many differences between Chicago and Detroit (or almost any other large city) to discuss here. A few brief differences - Chicago has an extensive mass transit system (even extends into north central IN), hundreds of thousands of downtown daytime office workers, clean and well maintained parks and beaches, vast amounts of middle and upper class residents living downtown and last but not least, there's the race thing. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1707 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I call "BS", Scottr. I think most people would enjoy the option of being able to walk to a drugstore or market, among other things. Granted, no one wants to live next to a Wal Mart SuperCenter, but you'd be amazed. I'm kinda curious to know who you polled. You should also get out of Detroit a bit more often--there are many places under construction/redevelopment where one doesn't have to drive. I would know, because I live in such a place. The other difference between the bullshit lifestyle centers and real neighborhoods is not just driving, but ownership. In lifestyle centers, there is NO public domain. Every square inch of space, including the landscaping, sidewalks, benches, and streets, is owned by a private entity. This means that, like shopping malls, they can impose their rules on you by invoking property rights. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1229 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
So we agree 'lifestyle' centers suck. Just calling a shopping center a 'lifestyle' center is so dumb. | ||
Gman29 Member Username: Gman29 Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 68.74.2.87 |
Lieftstyle centers are the malls of old...when Northland and Eastland used to be open air shopping centers. Everyone thinks Lifestyle cenjters are great!! But wait 5 - 10 years when people get thin skinned again and realize that it is too cold to shop, too snowy to shop. Guess what will happen? You got it. They enclose the lifetsyle centers and you have a mall again. It is a circle my friend. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 746 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.61.194.237 |
As my father used to say "There are only three neighborhoods in America, black, white, and changing" | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 301 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 207.61.38.86 |
If I want a lifestyle centre, I will go the following. These places are real {http://www.rosedalemainstreet. com/, Rosedale Main Street}. {www.downtownyonge.com, Downtown Yonge}. {www.roncesvallesvillage.ca, Roncesvales}. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1952 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
The folks who just bought Macomb Mall sound like they're going to put a whole lot of money into it. If they were successful, they'd do what a lot of commercial property owners have been unable/unwilling to do in Metro Detroit. http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060911/METRO 03/609110313 | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 100 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 66.195.132.2 |
Why is Eastland Mall dying? Isn't thatin Harper Woods? I thought that area was pretty rich? Why would the mall in a rich suburb die? | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1318 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
Harper Woods is not a rich suburb, Milwaukee. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 146.9.16.41 |
Milwaukee--Harper Woods is adjacent to the Grosse Pointes, with the mall being on the opposite side of I-94, where 8 Mile & Vernier diverge. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 123 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.220.225.55 |
Notice Milwaukee, if you walk through Eastland to this day, all the wealthier chain stores are leaving while the independant stores like dragon airbrush, StrideRite, The Shoe Depot, and so forth are the only ones thriving in their because those are the only style of clothes the shoppers at that mall shop for. Suncoast, KB Toys, Spencer Gifts, B. Dalton, Parade of Shoes, and so forth are leaving because of the environment and the type of shoppers and their styles. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 101 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.232.152 |
Well, where do the Grosse Pointe shoppers goto? I guess I always thought of Harper Woods as a nicer area. Isn't it right next to English Village? | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 125 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.220.225.55 |
Grosse Pointers have everything they need in Grosse Pointe. I saw a men's warehouse, a radio shack, then they have the village, also, they likely travel out to the more ritzy malls. Also, English Village is near Belle Isle, well away form Harper Woods. Now you must mean East English Village. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 179 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Dtown and Milwaukee you're confusing East Village with English Village. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1969 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.79 |
No Detroitplanner, you're confusing East Village with English Village and East English Village. East Village: a relatively new neighborhood name for the area east of Indian Village. It's being redeveloped by a non-profit group operating out of Jefferson Ave. Presbyterian Church. English Village: a townhouse (and soon to be school-to-loft conversion) development in the Islandview Village neighborhood, just north of Belle Isle and west of Indian Village. East English Village: a neighborhood on the far northeast side of Detroit on the border of the Pointes. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1970 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.79 |
For those needing some visual reference, here's a map: http://www.cityscapedetroit.or g/Detroit_neighborhoods.html# | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1320 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Is there really a Men's Warehouse in GP now? That is so Harper Woods ... | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 102 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.237.157 |
Thanks for the neighborhood map Bvos. I meant East English village. So where do people in Indian Village and the Gold coast shop, are there any upscale or actually any malls within Detroit City proper? Excluding the RenCen. | ||
Ericdfan Member Username: Ericdfan Post Number: 142 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.41.116.2 |
no | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 103 Registered: 08-2006 Posted From: 69.95.235.100 |
wow, are there any strip malls or any department stores left in the city? Where do the people in Indian Village, Greektown, Brush Park, and Downtown shop then? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4979 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
Yes Millwaukee, Detroit has oodles of new strip malls in its ghettohoods. most of it are Arab owned and operated and its changing the community around real good. What about to your ghettohood? Does it have traditional mom and pop stores? or is it dump! |
