  Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4134 Registered: 09-2005 |
EYES ON THE ROAD By JOSEPH B. WHITE Joe White writes Eyes on the Road every Monday for the Online Journal. His column offers readers insight into the top consumer issues in the automotive industry, ranging from car pricing to safety to the latest gadgets. Joe is the Detroit bureau chief for The Wall Street Journal, and has worked for the Journal since 1987. For most of that time, he has covered the auto industry from Detroit. In 1993, Joe and then-Detroit Bureau Chief Paul Ingrassia shared a Pulitzer Prize for beat reporting for their coverage of management turmoil at General Motors. Paul and Joe co-authored a 1994 book about the American auto industry in the 1980s and 1990s, "Comeback: The Fall and Rise of the American Automobile Industry." Joe also contributes new-car reviews to Smart Money magazine. A graduate of Harvard University, he lives with his family outside Detroit and commutes in a 2004 Subaru WRX. Send comments about Eyes on the Road to Joe at joseph.white@wsj.com6. Toyota to Detroit: We Will Bury You Lexus Flagship Bristles With New Features That Up the Ante as Detroit Rivals Wobble September 25, 2006 Toyota Motor Corp. has a message for its struggling rivals in Detroit: We will bury you. Of course, Toyota's leaders are far too diplomatic and cautious to say something as outrageous as that out loud. Instead, Toyota delivers its message in more subtle ways. Such as bringing the new Lexus LS 460 to a hotel within sight of Ford Motor Co.'s Dearborn, Mich., headquarters and innocently demonstrating the fact that the new top-of-the-line Lexus has a feature that allows the car to park itself, with the driver playing a minor supporting role. This is one of those see-it-to-believe-it features. But the LS 460 can use an array of sonar distance-finding devices linked to the navigation system that can slide the car into a parallel-parking slot without the driver touching the steering wheel. In addition to many new features, the LS 460 has a more aggressive design. While you are admiring that trick, you can ponder that the LS 460's lustrous paint job is the result of a new painting process that involves robots specifically developed for the LS production line that can buff the car's curvy body along six different axes, instead of just up and down. And when the robots are done, Lexus has workers who go over the finish by hand. The LS 460 has an eight-speed automatic transmission -- an industry first -- a state-of-the-art aluminum V-8 engine that cranks out 380 horsepower and is expected to get 19 miles to the gallon in the city and 27 miles to the gallon on the highway. (The Cadillac STS's Northstar V-8 by comparison is rated at 320 horsepower, 17 city and 26 mpg highway.) The long wheelbase, limo version of the new LS has an optional climate-control system that uses infrared sensors to detect whether occupants are overheating. The car has systems that sense a crash coming and prepare the brakes and airbags for impact -- a system similar in intent to one available on top end Mercedes cars. The car's headlights were redesigned after the chief engineer decided the original prototypes didn't look enough like crystal. So he had a new prototype headlight made out of crystal, and had the supplier copy the look. The list goes on, and on and on. Lexus's motto is "the relentless pursuit of perfection." It could just as well be simply, "Lexus. Relentless." Lexus has problems. Sure. Lexus still isn't a major player in the market for cars priced above $70,000 -- a rarified segment that has doubled in size during the past five years, according to Lexus general manager Bob Carter. Should Lexus look at building another sedan to compete against the likes of Bentley? Or a super sports car to rival Ferrari or Porsche? Lexus is looking at both options, Mr. Carter says. The Lexus LS 460 represents, in one elegant package, most of the reasons why Toyota is widely expected to become the world's No. 1 auto maker sometime within the next two years. It is a technological tour de force by a company that, relative to its strapped U.S. competition, has bottomless resources. Tricks like automatic parking technology are a lot easier to do if your company is making billions, and has a top-shelf credit rating. For GM and Ford, Detroit's junk-rated giants, everything comes harder. Toyota chose last week to mention that it expects profits in the six month period that ends Sept. 30 will be 500 billion yen (or about $4.29 billion). Toyota's confident outlook, and its declaration that it intends to expand global vehicle sales to 9.8 million by 2008, an 11% increase from this year, stood in sharp contrast to the torrent of bad news hitting Detroit over the past several days. On a single day, Sept. 15, Ford outlined plans to hack 44,000 people off the payroll and Chrysler disclosed a likely $1.5 billion third quarter loss. As for those quality problems that have been embarrassing Toyota over the past year or so, Toyota said it will attack them by hiring 8,000 engineers. This is more bad news for Detroit, since some of those 8,000 will likely be Ford, Chrysler or GM engineers who decide that, all things considered, working for Toyota is a better idea. The Toyota hiring binge says something else, namely that Toyota can afford to add nearly $1 billion a year worth of people to its payroll to keep its growth rolling. Even as Toyota executives sketch out plans to become the world's biggest auto maker, they still cling to the institutional inferiority complex that has characterized the corporate culture for more than 50 years, since the days when Toyota engineers humbly toured Ford's massive Rouge manufacturing complex in search of clues about how to make cars. At Lexus for instance, Mr. Carter concedes that up until now, when wealthy customers considered their choices for premium luxury cars, "we weren't on those shopping lists" next to the segment defining Mercedes S Class and BMW 7 series. Now, Lexus hopes that the overachieving LS460, and the even more high-tech (and high priced) LS600h hybrid sedan, coming this spring, will be deemed worthy by these shoppers. Lexus still has some road to travel to match the success of the two German luxury powerhouses, Mercedes and BMW. Globally, Lexus expects to sell about 400,000 cars this year, and aspires to get closer to 500,000 vehicles next year. BMW sold 597,120 BMW brand cars in the first half of this year alone. Unlike baseball pennant races, contests for sales and dominance in the auto industry never end. A company's fortunes can change rapidly with a few bad calls on product, or some unforeseen shocks to the economy. Who knows? Maybe Lexus will bungle its plan to sell 30,000 or so of the new LS sedans in the US in 2007. More likely, the television spots and news stories last week about the Lexus that can park itself took care of next year's allocation. So if you were wondering why GM, Ford and now Chrysler have been acting like the proverbial guys being chased through the woods by a grizzly bear, now you know what the bear looks like. • Send comments about Eyes on the Road to joseph.white@wsj.com4. URL for this article: http://online.wsj.com/article/ SB115895951552471649.html | ||
Spacemonkey Member Username: Spacemonkey Post Number: 94 Registered: 03-2006 |
But how many people can afford to buy a Lexus? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4136 Registered: 09-2005 |
Not the point, Spacemonkey. Perhaps in 2 years the Camry will be able to park itself - at no extra charge. | ||
Motownman Member Username: Motownman Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2006 |
Lexus is really nice, but they still have compitition with Detroit like Cadillac. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2178 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm waiting for the huge lawsuit that's going to happen when one of these self parkers runs over someone or something very valuable. Self parking cars have been demonstrated for at least the last 10 years. Everyone's been afraid of the liability issues. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 103 Registered: 08-2006 |
Toyota just built a massive plant in San Antonio Texas and will open in November of this year. This plant will produce the new Tundra Truck. Its open the door for a Gateway to Mexico and South America. The Toyota Camry is pretty impressive, its literally requires no or very little mechanical upkeep, other than oil changes. Also, very very few problems. I only say this because there are 5 siblings in my family who drive them and are very impressed with Toyota I still drive American,always have, always will. I can say that I spend more per year on maintenance and upkeep as opposed to my siblings and their Camrys......... I think cost and performance will win the consumer everytime. People just dont have the 300 - 500 dollars for everytime something goes out on their American cars, and the dealers are dishonest when it comes to repair work for the most. Not all, but plenty Globalization continues to take its toll.......thanks for listening, Jane | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 157 Registered: 08-2006 |
Sad too say is that the only thing the big three have in common anymore with the japs is the executives are all drawing big salaries, difference is. Toyota's are actually worth what they are making. Did you hear on the radio Good ol'campy Dr Z is considering bringing a chinese made car over here and badging as a Dodge? I swear! If you want an American made car anymore, you have to buy a Japenese brand. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1305 Registered: 05-2005 |
in other news: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/0 9/25/heavy-duty-pickups-by-toy ota-and-nissan-delayed
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Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3607 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroit will not surrender the truck market. This infuriates the naysayers, Detroit-haters and Toyota brass in general. The other segments were kindergarten compared to trucks. | ||
Tndetroiter Member Username: Tndetroiter Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2005 |
Hasn't Toyota recalled something like 2 million vehicles this year alone? Didn't the Japanese Minister of Industry publicly berate the execs at Toyota for knowingly dodging recalls that were badly needed for the past 8 years? W/ their rapid growth, Toyota has run into quality issues. If they don't fix those problems pretty quick, they'll run into the same perceived low-quality standard a few years down the road that GM and Ford now suffer from as a result of the 80s. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 642 Registered: 11-2003 |
Patrick said, "The other segments were kindergarten compared to trucks." Whatever you say, but GM and Ford MUST grow their car sales to compensate for declining truck sales. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 922 Registered: 09-2004 |
Keep in mind the "Auto Park" feature requires a space that is 6.5 feet longer than the car itself. Stevie Wonder could park that. It is an accomplisment, but really just a headline grabber. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1806 Registered: 07-2004 |
Guess the lexus is something special after all tndetroiter? For the money it is flat out a better made car then any other. Strike that....... it is a better made car regardless of the cost. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 97 Registered: 02-2006 |
In a way Toyota did not build a plant in Texas, Texas built a plant for Toyota. And people wonder why GM and Ford are bleeding. Yeah the Texas plant is all but a gift from taxpayers on the premise that the place will "create" jobs. Steal is a better description. Same can be said for the Nissan plant down south. Problem is, the Nissan truck is floundering. While the magazines write whatever they are told to about it, it simply is not selling, in fact, Nissan has already cut production by almost a third. Big reason? Number one it's ugly, not as ugly as the soon to be introduced Toyota "big" truck but yes the dang thing is hideous. Now on to the Toyota monstrosity. It's a mess, they've already delayed it and cut production numbers. And no BS, Toyota dealers are bitching about the size of it. It won't fit in many service departments. It's that big. Yeah Ford and GM must build car sales but to do so they must first fix image. There is bias that has to be beaten bake. Ever hear about the thousands of Toyotas that sludged their engines? Chances are you have not. But consider the Chrysler image. Front page, feature story everywhere how easy it is to steal their cars. In the long run, is it there a huge differnce these days in cars, not really but considering how Honda runs by far the most dangerous assembly plant here in the states, will these transplants and imports be "trusted" as a source for your vehicle purchase? Can saving a couple bucks on a car come back and haunt you when your customers don't have a job or face huge cuts? Your choice. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 51 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Yeah the Texas plant is all but a gift from taxpayers on the premise that the place will "create" jobs." cough cough Poletown cough cough | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 99 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Yeah the Texas plant is all but a gift from taxpayers on the premise that the place will "create" jobs." cough cough Poletown cough cough" Is there is a difference for giving breaks for those that built the structure than those that just exploit it? Post again after you drive down that interstate Nissan built. | ||
Wcpo_intern Member Username: Wcpo_intern Post Number: 1878 Registered: 04-2004 |
"W/ their rapid growth, Toyota has run into quality issues. If they don't fix those problems pretty quick, they'll run into the same perceived low-quality standard a few years down the road that GM and Ford now suffer from as a result of the 80s." The article said "As for those quality problems that have been embarrassing Toyota over the past year or so, Toyota said it will attack them by hiring 8,000 engineers." Sounds like a solid plan to me. No rallying calls, no press conferences, no management stir-ups, none of the wasted effort some corporations do to rally the stock rather than directly address the problem. You have a quality problem, you spend more on your quality engineers. I'd love to see Ford hire some designers to fix their design problems rather than add more layers of bean counters. I never heard a consumer say they'd buy a Ford if they only made it a little tougher to buy pens. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 52 Registered: 04-2006 |
Maybe GM built the plant, but the city selected the site, evicted the residents, demolished the buildings, etc. So I would argue that the city's residents were exploited by a money-hungry GM and a misguided city government. And if you're suggesting that building interstates is a service to a community, I suggest that you go tour a few Detroit neighbourhoods adjacent to interstates (or at least what's left of them). Interstates are exploitation of a community as much as building auto plants on people's houses. Corporate welfare is a losing game because corporations answer only to Wall Street. They are not, and never will be, socially responsible no matter how many tax abatements and factories the taxpaying public throws at them, and they will only create jobs when they have no other choice. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 313 Registered: 12-2005 |
Bearinabox, You are off-base with your insinuation. The City of Detroit and the state of Michigan provided the incentives for the GM Detroit Hamtramck Assembly Plant on the basis that the plant would KEEP jobs from leaving the City of Detroit and probably the state as well. Remember, that plant eventually took the place of both the Fisher Body Fleetwood and Cadillac Clark Street Plants. Losing those two plants would have been disasterous for the many citizens of Detroit who were employed there and at the many local suppliers who supported those plants.
Not so! Wcpo_intern, if you have a quality problem, you don't hire a bunch of new quality engineers and expect them to get back your quality reputation. It takes product and manufacturing engineers who are familiar with the product and process to identify the source of the variation that is causing the defect and then make the necessary design changes to make it more robust. Quality engineers typically bring the "quality tools" to the table and train the knowledgeable engineers to use them. Quality must be built into the products by design, rather than using inspection to contain defects. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 683 Registered: 12-2005 |
Hasn't this become a cliche? It presumes a correlation between rapid growth and quality problems. It may be true, granted. Yet consider the opposite case where rapid cost cutting creates quality problems. Are there not many cases, especially in today's economic climate, where managers are forced to cut costs but have no clue which costs are best to cut -- without actually trying and seeing what breaks? That break becomes the quality problem. In conclusion, both rapid growth and rapid cuts contribute to creating quality problems. Isn't it the rapidity that is the source of the problem? | ||
Dillpicklesoup Member Username: Dillpicklesoup Post Number: 184 Registered: 05-2006 |
ok kids- take a trip to Japan and count how many American cars you see driving down the streets. We are so stupid in this country and we've given away industry after industry. When the USA is no longer the dumping ground for the world- I wonder who other countries will sell their wares to- | ||
Harsensis Member Username: Harsensis Post Number: 80 Registered: 07-2005 |
I am going to need to replace my Dakota in a year or two. I don't want to buy another Dodge because I am always worried about it getting stolen. Last winter somebody wiped the snow off the window of my truck, then decided to take our Caravan instead. I wrote Dr Z and asked if they were doing something about making them harder to steal and they wrote back to check at my local library for answers since they are not answerign questions about that. I looked at a F150 two weeks ago and the sticker was 33K. I thought the Honda was high at 27K. Then I stumbled across the Toyota club cab by accident and found it was only 22K. Until I found that I hadn't even thought about a Toyota. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 100 Registered: 02-2006 |
Get it right, I do not believe any corporation should be "given" incentives to do business in this country. But they also are not going to solve all "our" problems for us. The role of central government is to provide a platform for business to conduct it's activities. And for the privilege of doing business in this country these corporations have to contribute to the costs of that government. The current methods of providing corporate welfare is complete nonsense. Considering the record profits Toyota is making, why should anybody from any government give them anything? Heck, tax them more, they can afford it. Think they would leave? Would we as a nation be worse off if they did? Instead we now have politicians across the country extolling "their" virtues of how "they" created jobs (and in the process neglecting to admit they used the taxes we paid to enable this). Worst of all they are not creating jobs, they are simply shifting them. With lower wages included. And in the process creating a bigger bill down the road. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 684 Registered: 12-2005 |
We often hear of tax incentives granted for creating local jobs. Funny, I've yet to hear of even one corporate tax incentive rescinded for reneging on the deal by exporting those jobs. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 159 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes, and if that were not infuriating enough a loop hole allows them to write off half the taxes on the moneys requires to tool up asian plants. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1123 Registered: 11-2003 |
Toyota is the global leader. They control where the auto industry goes. It may not be deserved, it may not be all roses and smiles, but perception is reality, and that perception is that Toyota can do no wrong. American cars have improved drastically, however, they need to beat the best of the best at their own game to swing sales back. You can't build a Camry copy and say "look, its just as good as a Camry" and expect people to flock to your dealership. There's no reason to. Why go elsewhere for a Camry-clone when you can just go buy a Camry? It is comfortable. I do live in CA, where Toyota and Honda are kings of the road. Many folks I know here head straight to Honda or Toyota when new car time arrives. The mere mention of considering something else (even European or other Japanese offerings) brings this look of disgust. The perception is that Toyota and Honda are the best, and people will only spend their money on the best. Cadillacs are fantastic. I absolutely adore the CTS, but to the average person, it doesn't match the level of refinement and interior feel of a Lexus. Can't blame them. Its just that I put more emphasis on rear drive and sporty handling than most people. Most people just want a car that feels nice and doesn't break. Fair enough. Thats why Toyota makes money hand over fist. They excel at providing exactly what most of the car buying public wants. Doesn't mean there isn't money to be made by offering something different (Chrysler 300), just that when your lineup top to bottom appeals to a huge part of the market, you're gonna clean up. As to trucks, the talk of doom and gloom has been around for at least a decade, and it hasn't happened. I won't say never, but the fact is that GM/F/DCX never have produced junk that opens the door for the competitors (when the japanese companies became so popular, domestic cars of the time were indeed junk). Their trucks are competitive on features, price, capability and fuel economy with all the other trucks on the market. Plus they have more engine/transmission/towing/bed combinations than anyone else. They could screw it up, but until they do, competitors won't make more than a small dent in sales. The Nissan Titan changed my mind. The current Tundra just didn't have the power, towing, hauling of the domestics, then the Titan came out. It was huge. It had a big beefy engine. It could tow and haul a ton. Sales went nowhere. All they hype. All the talk. I still remember the "truck that will finally beat the domestics". Never happened. And that's what tells me the new Tundra won't either. Yet all the doom and gloom comes out (cause it is easy to cheer for toyota...), but it won't matter. I might go so far as to say they won't even hit their sales targets (which are to double current sales). I might even say it could be an example of a Toyota plant not operating at full capacity. It just won't matter. Whatever they come up with, GM/F/DCX has an answer. NOt only that, but GM is beating them to market by 4-6 months with their all new (and very highly rated) GMT9000 platform. Add in heavy duty versions, monster diesel engines, Allison transmissions. Same with Ford. Same with DCX. Toyota can't touch that. And unless the domestics screw something up, they never will. Not only are the trucks better at being trucks, people don't WANT foreign trucks. Remember perception is reality? Perception is that Americans make the best trucks. People don't want to drive inferior ones. I'll never say something won't happen in the auto industry, just that as I grow older, I become more skeptical about everything. Toyota says they don't care how big they get. Its obvious they are about to go crazy in their attempt to pass GM. It may happen. It doesn't really matter. But again, I'm not so sure they will, or that if they do they aren't doing it because customers demand it, but because Toyota wants to be the biggest. That's the mentality that got GM in trouble. I worry Toyota may repeat it. And with GM far and away the market leader in China, the fastest growing auto market in the world, Toyota may never get there. Anyway, long ass post. Perception is reality. People love to jump on bandwagons. There is no certainty in the auto industry, even if you're toyota. Who would have said 50 years ago that GM would be where it is today, or that Toyota would be where it is today? Who would have said 15 years ago that Hyundai would be where it is today? Everything can change in the blink of an eye. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4154 Registered: 09-2005 |
Excellent post, Jerome. | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 259 Registered: 08-2005 |
"I will bury you." Said Drago to Rocky. | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 425 Registered: 01-2004 |
Well, I currently drive a Lexus..actually this is my 4th Lexus Vehicle. The reason I do is because of the quality. And no car company is perfect, they all have their problems of course. But when I do have a problem, Lexus bends over backwards to correct it and correct it quickly. When I used to buy American made vehicles, and I had a problem, they always tried to find excuses on why it wasn't their problem, or they even came up with "we don't see a problem". Sorry, but if I am paying a monthly car note, I really don't believe I should be spending major dollars on repairs because the car wasn't built properly. My mother is going through some major drama with her American made car as we speak, and she has only had it for 2 years. They are finding every excuse in the book to make her come out of her pocket for the repairs when it is clearly something they didn't do right. Lexus til I die baby!! (or maybe BMW one day) | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2004 |
I guess I should consider myself lucky. I would say the same thing about my Buick. 155,000 miles strong and all that's been done to it is oil changes, one tune up, one change of break pads and drums and one new set of tires. (I won't count having to change the radio face due to my own stupidity.) I used to have a bet with a friend as to who's car would last longer...my '90 Pontiac Grand Prix or his '91 Honda Accord. Not only did I win the bet, but I got three more years outta the car too! | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 528 Registered: 08-2005 |
Detroit is on the left, Toyota is on the right  "I must break you, Detroit." | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 295 Registered: 05-2005 |
yes, but we know who wins in the end eh? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4164 Registered: 09-2005 |
Yes, Miss Cleo - and ya better hope it's the retirees. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1522 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actaully Drago did break Rocky.
Called Competition. Toyota could build that plant in any state it wants. They can not sit back and ,ala Granholm, hope they build it here. Also, who needs a car that can park itself it really is useless. However it will be one more option offered at a low price compared to the Big Three who can only offer those options to employees for a extra charge becuase the other cars are overpriced to cover the employee subsidy and the buyer/leasee can not afford to bump his $300-$400 payment while the employee can certainly bump up his $50 payment. (Message edited by _sj_ on September 26, 2006) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 160 Registered: 08-2006 |
Strange, but I agree with sj on this. Governments need to take a pro active role, they cannot just sit back and collect taxes and maybe do a little something once in awhile. Sometimes you gotta have the check book out to get results. FDR recognozed this in the 30s, with the WPC camps. If we're gonna have all these people out of work, might as well give them a shovel, pay them a little bit, and get some use out 'em. | ||
Motownman Member Username: Motownman Post Number: 6 Registered: 09-2006 |
I wonder if Toyota will dare to break detroit territory and build a plant here in Michigan | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5015 Registered: 02-2004 |
The Japanese exces. of Toyota said to the Americans. "HAHAHAHA, you Americans are fools! You rely on your culture waving stupidity to save yourselves from the wrath of dragon. But guess what? The wrath of dragon is already in your land, choking your children and making your leaders talk nonsense. The dragon flies to burn your hopes and your liberty into charcoal." | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2187 Registered: 10-2003 |
They don't seem to have any issues building a large R&D facility in York township. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 101 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Called Competition. Toyota could build that plant in any state it wants. They can not sit back and ,ala Granholm, hope they build it here." Yeah they could build in any state they want. But when you consider how the federal government shares revenue, why should states be allowed to use tax breaks that are in the long run generated by GM and Ford workers to subsidize a Toyota plant? By no means is this competition, it's pure corporate extortion. If you want competition and abide by the rules of it then Granholm's sale of Ann Arbor property for a lower by a huge margin to Toyota should be voided. But she sure as heck is trumpeting how she made a "good deal" for the tax payers by selling for less than market value. If Toyota and the rest want to build plants here let them do it the same way as GM and Ford did when they created the market some 80 years ago. With absolutely no tax breaks in any state. And if they can do it and succeed, more power to them. To say they are creating jobs is complete fraud. It is nothing more than a shift and exploitation of a market they have no ownership of. If you created a business say an insurance agency or restaurant and slowly over the years expanded and improved until you had a sizeable investment in property and improvements. You had a huge parking lot and paid to run utilities to your site. Then one day somebody sees that you have a good market and decides to go into that same business. So what does he do? He sets up a tent and plugs in to the wiring you ran. Does the exact same thing you do, uses your parking lot and roads you paid via taxes. Of course he charges less and can deliver a similar product. Would you be thrilled to see this happen if you ran the original business or if you were a customer would you make all sorts of excuses for why you saving a few bucks was worth walking away from the guy who really was responsible for the market. It is exactly what Toyota is doing. It is not competition, it is piracy of a market. No wonder government at all levels cannot abide by a budget, those in office will spend any and all money to buy votes. And worse yet, the majority don't see it when they hide it behind sound bites and catch phrases. Oh yeah why is Toyota building an R & D facility in Michigan? Best way to screw up the competition is steal their engineers. And in this case they got the politicians to pay for the process. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1525 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tax Credits and other deals. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 11 Registered: 09-2006 |
Excellent post Angry_dad. There are lots of people in this country, even here in Michigan, who take a perverse pleasure in the struggles of the Big Three and the rise of the Asian automakers. But it is clearly not a level playing field. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 162 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes! I think if the big three showed more social responsibility, we'd care more what happens to them. Right wing economists talk like business is a cold hard steel blade, but consumer's are not as dumb as Wall Street thinks we are. This is the reason for the domestic's declining market share. Because you're right , there are so many 3.0 litre V6 four door sedans to choose from, all are comparable. Who would a buyer go with but whom he perceives as beneffiting him and his community? Rather then taking from it. And to those of you that are still employed by the big 3 you could argue that even with all the layoffs and plant closings, your companies do more for our area then the japs do, and even if you are right, that does not change public perception. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1497 Registered: 10-2004 |
"I wonder if Toyota will dare to break detroit territory and build a plant here in Michigan" Just why might Toyota bother? They're doing great where they are. Its market value topped $200 billion for the first time this year. Ford and GM's market capitalization together is probably only around $25 billion. Their potential long-term liabilities are huge millstones around their necks, making them very unattractive to investors. Why come to Michigan? What does this state have to offer? It ranks 39th in per capita college degrees--down from 36th five years ago. So, that factor is bad enough to begin with, and the trend is heading in the wrong direction. That alone should be a deal-killer. Michigan, as a whole, is a bottom feeder in education. And Metro Detroit ranks 22nd of the 24th largest municipalities in that regard. That's even much worse. The union, anti-business mindset is still present. Toyota, along with other well-functioning firms, prefers "Right to Work" states. And there's the entitlement, "gimme" mindset of SE Michigan. That's no secret. There are other major negatives of Metro Detroit and Detroit, in particular. We all know about them as do Toyota execs, so why bother reciting their litany. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 760 Registered: 11-2003 |
Toyota... arent they the leader in recalls this year? Not sure if you have to figure in all the stuff they tried to hide and are getting spanked for by the Japanese Govt. When I see someone driving a Toyota, I see someone drinking the koolaid and not giving a shit about Detroit. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 317 Registered: 12-2005 |
East_Detroit, Since you brought it up, here is the latest on Toyota's recall and quality problems: • Last year in the USA, Toyota recalled more than 2.38 million vehicles, which was 120,000 more cars than they sold that year and more than twice as many as they had to recall in the previous year. Toyota has definitely come down with a bad case of the "big company disease" that they accused GM of having. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1819 Registered: 07-2004 |
Who gives a shit........I mean you cats keep posting this bogeyman shit about Toyota and they keep beating the goddamned pants off the domestics_ Have you noticed now that the domestics mention Toyota and Honda in their ads? We ae quieter than Lexus, we offer this that Honda doesn't, we have this that Toyota doesn't_ I think we all want the domestics to do well.But attempting to bring down Toyota or any other manufacture serves no purpose and Toyota's sales reflect that.People buy them because they have proven to be much more reliable than Ford, Chrysler, or G.M. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1126 Registered: 11-2003 |
I will add to city lover's post. they have the PERCEPTION of being much more reliable than Ford, Chrysler, or GM. Like I said, its all perception. | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 322 Registered: 03-2005 |
Citylover, We give a shit and you should too if you want what's best for Michigan and the nation. All people like Jerome, Angry Dad and Mikeg are saying is Toyota is not bullet proof, yet America's perception outside of Detroit seems to think otherwise. Go to a Honda forum and read all the posts from losers who want GM to fall into a black hole and Detroit to go with it, simply because they had a friend of a friend who had something wrong with their domestic. Yet when the same thing happens to their import it's simply a minor glitch. I'm not excusing the Big 3's faults, competition has brought out better products these days, but we can't sit on the sidelines and have our hearts ripped out because of perception. I and other members on this fourm bat for for Detroit, do you? | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 260 Registered: 08-2005 |
Maybe in the version that they released in the USSR. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1820 Registered: 07-2004 |
No one is saying Honda, Toyota,et,al are perfect.But is there any doubt that they have built a much better in terms of quality car? And for time ours were shit? I am only saying attempting to somehow label cars that for the most part have as I said beat the pants off the domestics is not the way to go. In fairness to the domestics they have greatly improved quality. Where it seems they are getting killed is in legacy and health costs.Interesting eries on that in Detroit news this week. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4174 Registered: 09-2005 |
Perhaps I've said this on an earlier forum: As a child in the '60's, I went on the Rouge tour perhaps 10 times - school, family, out-of-town friends. The tour started at Ford World Hdqtrs where you boarded a bus. No cameras allowed (they got that right) On every tour, along with the Scouts, kids & grandparents were always a group of Japanese businessmen dressed in dark suits. I remember thinking "how great they could finish their other business in Detroit so they had time for this fun tour." In retrospect, touring the Rouge was that day's business. Perhaps all of you know by now - or remember - that in those days, Japanese cars were truly junk - and small. American cars were large, stylish, and selling. Quality & safety were somewhere in the trunk or alongside the road and it was sorta like the attitude at Disney: More new customers were born each day. I believe those Japanese businessmen were here back then simply to improve a lousy product. Somewhere along the line the light went on (remember Ford's "better idea"?) and the whole affair with their new American customers began. Cost - quality - style - safety. In no particular order, those are the things that rock with consumers. They're in different order depending on the country and market. Those of you who've been to Europe know that Chevys in Europe jump out at you like Batmobiles. Buicks sell in Iowa. Hummers & Escalades sell despite gas prices. Then out of nowhere comes a "new" Mustang (remember, this nameplate is over 40 years old) and sells fast. In the long run, it is a new world. Dinosaurs die hard, but they die - and while Detroit's old way of doing things in the auto industry is gone, the need for safer, more stylish & efficient autos is just beginning for we've seen that each generation's affair with cars is the same - we love 'em, and by the millions, please. The Japanese don't know it all, and much of what they know they learned from us (and we've benefitted too) The tough lesson is that after numerous generations of autoworkers earning more and doing less (like many in our society) that job/pay/education has changed drastically and forever. Along with anyone who made buggywhips, delivered ice, or made cast iron stoves, sorry but that dog just won't hunt anymore. This country has regrouped, picked itself up and succeeded famously after many debacles - and it can from this one. I'm extremely proud and defensive of Detroit's auto legacy. I know that only Detroit can consistently "pull rabbits out of the hat" style-wise for the market that's gotta have the latest - but if you want to keep the old one, it's gotta last. I hope the future includes a healthy and prosperous Big 3, not only for Detroit's and Michigan's sake, but for this great country's sake as well. At the end of the day, while other countries have moved up in how they build cars, only the USA has had so much fun - yes, fun - along the way - and Detroit has proudly and solely led the charge. May it be so again one day. |
