  Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060926/NEW S99/60926008 For more than 30 years, the historic G.A.R. Building has sat vacant on the neglected western edge of downtown Detroit. Now the City of Detroit is making a serious effort to attract a buyer who would restore the building. Don’t even think about tearing it down for a Burger King. The city, which owns the structure, is requiring that any proposal must preserve the historic architecture. Copies of the city’s request for proposals will be available next Monday from the city’s Planning and Development Department, 65 Cadillac Square. Proposals are due no later than Nov. 15. For more information, call city planner Alexander Pollock at 313-224-1325 during business hours. A tentative sale price of $220,500 has been set. But any renovation would cost at least $1 million. Various tax credits are available to assist a developer in financing a project. | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 388 Registered: 11-2003 |
If the city sells it to the hot & ready king, I'm gonna' be sick. | ||
Wmuchris Member Username: Wmuchris Post Number: 449 Registered: 06-2005 |
Looks like the next forum house. Any takers? | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 729 Registered: 06-2005 |
Maybe the City can sell it to Niederlander for $220k. Then he can sell it to the State of Michigan for $1million. Then the State can sell it back to Detroit for $2million? Regardless, this is a HOT property! | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2006 |
That building is so cool. From the outside it looks like its in great condition. With its size Im wondering what could done with it. The price is low, but I have to think its going to be more then 1 million to renovate. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 896 Registered: 03-2005 |
Does anyone have photos of the interior? I know someone who wants to bid on the property. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1647 Registered: 04-2005 |
Lots of photos, including interior: http://forgottendetroit.com/ga r/photos.html | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10669 Registered: 10-2003 |
What a sweet location for a Cheesecake Factory! | ||
Spacemonkey Member Username: Spacemonkey Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2006 |
I lived across the street from the GAR back in 1992-1995. I was in the Ramada/Leland building. At that time, there was an article in the paper that said the GAR was up for sale for $37,000. My roomates and I wondered how we could scrape up the cash to buy it, as we saw it out our window every day. But heck, I was broke and slumming; only living at the Ramada because it offered a furnished, two bedroom apartment with all utilities included for $425.00 a month rent. Divide that 3 ways and you have 3 students living cheaply. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2846 Registered: 08-2004 |
Reality Check Folks!!! There's one major drawback to selling it to someone besides 1) Mike Ilitch, 2) Anthony Pieroni or possibly 3) Blair McGowan... NO PARKING!!! Mike Ilitch owns the land across Cass (the Cass-Adams Building and large parking lot). Anthony Pieroni owns the parking lot southeast of the GAR, between the Michigan Building and Grand River. And I'm not sure if Blair McGowan (owner of the nearby Moose Lodge) has any empty surface lots directly north of the GAR. As far as anyone else buying the GAR?? No dedicated parking.... no Bank Loan for purchasing or renovation!! I'm sure that the city realizes that, and will use it as a criteria for whomever they sell it to. No point in the city selling to someone who cannot develop it, and will just end up with another derelict building in private hands. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 544 Registered: 02-2004 |
I know a man who is trying to buy that building and has been trying for four years. City of Detroit has been confounding him and I think he has given up. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2847 Registered: 08-2004 |
Until the court case was settled, it wasn't sellable. And that case was pending for a few years, until now. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2179 Registered: 10-2003 |
If it is an RFP, a high bid will not get you the building. You will have to submit a complete redevelopment plan. Complete with the intended rehabilitation and initial financing plans. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2120 Registered: 02-2005 |
This is a very good thing. Should have been done long ago. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2003 |
I love how Gistok thinks this can't be renovated without a parking lot. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 578 Registered: 10-2003 |
With no parking, how can this wonderful building be renovated and ecomonically viable? What type of businesses would be viable in this building? Law office? Restaurant? HQ for a small company? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1044 Registered: 02-2004 |
bibs, parking garage | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2850 Registered: 08-2004 |
Rjlj, then you must not have been around on this forum during all the years of discussing the Women's Exchange development problems due to parking... Let me enlighten you... NOTHING came of all the years of development plans for the GCP Women's Exchange Building (remember China Club?). And the reason was because Mike Ilitch wasn't about to give up any of his parking spaces for the development. But along comes his dedicated employee, hockey's Chris Chelios... who wanted to develop the property. Mike Ilitch gave his blessing, as well as some dedicated parking spots... and Voila! Chelio's Chili! Maybe we ought to ask our resident developer Ndavies about how important parking spaces are to getting financing for a development? (Message edited by Gistok on September 26, 2006) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 972 Registered: 11-2004 |
That huge MGM parking garage is only a few blocks away. That might be an option? | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 591 Registered: 02-2004 |
Looks like a perfect place for raves. Oh..um... a bar would do nicely there, and there's parking everywhere around here. Every place doesn't need it's own parking lot. That's why we're so fat now. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6927 Registered: 10-2003 |
Banks won't loan money unless there's assured adequate parking for the project. (Message edited by itsjeff on September 26, 2006) | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2180 Registered: 10-2003 |
This is going to be a tough building to renovate, between the historic deed restrictions and the lack of parking. The first words out of any banker is going to be "where are you going to park?" To market a building downtown you need dedicated parking. Empty parking lots don't mean shit if you can't get a deal for access to them. It has to be adjacent and committed to you. We live in a suburban centric region. Companies expect the same conveniences they get in the suburbs. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2003 |
Plenty of parking available under Grand Circus Park. It holds about 900 cars total. I guess Cliff Bell's has a secret parking garage, that's why a bank gave them a loan. I am not saying it is not a hinderance but come on here. The building has been around for 100 years without a parking lot. I am almost certain banks will not deny loans based on parking. If a viable plan exists, it will happen. Get your fat azzes Detroit and walk. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2006 |
maybe we should tear it down and build a parking lot | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2181 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry rjlj you're wrong. no parking is fine for a bar, but won't fly for office or residential space. Ask the developer of the Kales what they had to go through to provide parking for their project. They had to build a dedicated tunnel underground into the GCP parking lot. The bank wouldn't loan them the money without it. The garage was only across the street form their building. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2182 Registered: 10-2003 |
On the Vinton building, We had a 100% sold out project and the bank still required us to come up with dedicated parking. Even with all the participants understanding there was no parking at the time. We eventually had to come up with two parking plans. One was a letter commiting space from a deck next door and the other was cutting the building to provide parking in the basement. Until you've sat across the table from a banker asking them to fund a project, you have no clue the issues involved. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 147 Registered: 11-2003 |
I would like to know of the Kales tunnel was a requirement or a Luxury/Convenience, can anyone tell me what the facts are and not hearsay? Does anyone know what the city ordinances are for the required number of parking spaces for an establishment? Thanks. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2183 Registered: 10-2003 |
How could it be hearsay. What construction company do you know that would build a hugely expensive tunnel if they didn't have to. Talk about cutting a huge hole in your profit margins. There is no city ordinance requiring parking space in the CBD. It is strictly a financing requirement. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 148 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ndavies, does or will the Vinton building have basement access to parking? | ||
Meliss Member Username: Meliss Post Number: 243 Registered: 02-2005 |
He's completely wrong and trying to save face. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 61 Registered: 03-2006 |
$225,000 for the building and $1,000,000 to renovate. Doesnt sound like the most expensive project. There are plenty of groups out there who dont need financing for a project. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2184 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes, it will have basement parking. We cut the first floor of the building about a month ago. The elevator pit has been poured. The alley wall has had the garage door opening cut. Framing for the elevator shaft enclosure should begin in the next few weeks. It is costing us about $40,000 per space to put parking in the building. We sure as hell wouldn't be doing it without the financing requirement for parking. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 974 Registered: 11-2004 |
What Ndavies says here is not hearsay. I like to question sources, too, but Ndavies is normally on point when it comes to this type of stuff. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thanks for the information. Hopefully bank involvement is minimal with this deal. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2185 Registered: 10-2003 |
So Meliss, name a single non-bar project in the CBD that was built without dedicated parking in the last 10 years? The only one I know of is the Y. They do have a small dedicated parking in back. Even existing buildings are gobbling up neighboring buildings for parking. It's the only way they can increase their occupancy rates. Those include: the Dime, the Guardian, and 1001 Woodward. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2851 Registered: 08-2004 |
I agree, Ndavies is usually right on the money. Also, it's not just a matter of the banks demanding parking. The city will probably also stipulate dedicated parking as part of selling the property! They want it to be developed, and not just sold. If Mike Ilitch or Anthony Pieroni want to buy the GAR, they may be the odds on favorites because they have dedicated parking within 100 ft. of the GAR. But whoever buys it, they better be able to come up with detailed plans for its restoration. The city doesn't want to sell it to add to someones real estate holdings. (Message edited by Gistok on September 26, 2006) | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6928 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ndavies, Meliss was agreeing with you. She meant that Rjlj was trying to save face. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 62 Registered: 03-2006 |
If everybody wants the property and the city owns it and needs money, then why only $225,000 | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7952 Registered: 10-2003 |
Something about that $1M renovation costs. Everybody is a very subjective term around here. I assume everybody is closer to maybe one or two people. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2003 |
Correct. Poll: Would anyone here live in a building downtown such as the Kales or the Vinton that didn't have an underground tunnel to parking or an attached parking garage? Would it deter you from living there even if you had to walk a block or two to a parking garage? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6929 Registered: 10-2003 |
Once the Vinton is renovated, it's conceivable that the units would sell for around $500,000 each. If I'm laying out that kind of money, I want to be able to park in my living room. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 63 Registered: 03-2006 |
I wouldnt want to walk 2 blocks to my home, especially in the winter. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7953 Registered: 10-2003 |
SE Michigan should be changed to pathetic fatasses. (Message edited by jt1 on September 26, 2006) | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 530 Registered: 09-2005 |
I'd walk to get my car. I would also take public transit. With this whole discussion, the elephant in the room, of course, is the state of SE Michigan's public transit system(s). | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2853 Registered: 08-2004 |
It may not be fun with 8 bags of groceries and a heavy rain... | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 64 Registered: 03-2006 |
Big differance between living their and visiting. It took me 30 years to get a garage, Im spoiled. | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2003 |
If the price was right, I would walk two blocks to park. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 531 Registered: 09-2005 |
Of course, with 8 bags of groceries and heavy rain, one would stop the car out front, put on the four ways, unload the car and take the groceries to one's condo, and then go park the car. The building is not very big, the process should take less than 5 minutes. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8831 Registered: 10-2003 |
UpinOttawa, that car would be gone in about 30 seconds... | ||
Meliss Member Username: Meliss Post Number: 245 Registered: 02-2005 |
Yes. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7954 Registered: 10-2003 |
You can turn on the hazards and shut off and lock the car. (Message edited by jt1 on September 26, 2006) | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 532 Registered: 09-2005 |
Goat, make that six minutes and insert "place The Club on steering wheel".  | ||
Mrfrench Member Username: Mrfrench Post Number: 26 Registered: 01-2006 |
There is no city ordinance requiring parking space in the CBD. It is strictly a financing requirement. Are you sure. the recent "in-house" financed jobs i was involved in required parking for P&Z plan approval. and these were not just residential. | ||
Motownman Member Username: Motownman Post Number: 7 Registered: 09-2006 |
What was the GAR building originally??? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2186 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm not absolutely positive. I had been told this by someone connected to the city and it may only apply to the core of the CBD. City P&Z didn't require parking for the Vinton rehab. Outside of the CBD there are definite parking requirements. There may also be a difference between a residential convert and other types of development. | ||
Messykitty Member Username: Messykitty Post Number: 156 Registered: 03-2006 |
"What was the GAR building originally???" Did you read the article??? Try clicking on the link. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 176 Registered: 10-2005 |
lack of parking??? did you see the intersection of grand river and cass in the photo???? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2188 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes, lack of parking. That parking is not controlled by whoever buys the building. It will definitely be a problem considering the owner of most of the adjacent lots. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 534 Registered: 09-2005 |
The GAR is certainly afloat in a sea of parking. It is disturbing how much parking is out there. Unfortunately, none of that parking belongs to the GAR.... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 191 Registered: 04-2006 |
How did they get the money to do the Elysium Lounge then? From what I can see, that place doesn't have a dedicated parking lot/structure. It's pretty silly to tie parking to financing a project in a central business district of a major city. Are these Michigan centered banks? I can't believe a bank in New York or Chicago would have such a silly requirement. | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 82 Registered: 03-2005 |
Water water everywhere but not a drop to drink. How did the parking situation become such an issue? Could it be the lack of mass transit in Metro Detroit? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8833 Registered: 10-2003 |
Iheartthed, Elysium is a bar and as indicated by NDavies bars are not subjected to the same degree as a residential or office building. Did you even read the thread? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 192 Registered: 04-2006 |
A bar is not the same thing as a lounge. If every place that sold alcohol was a bar then Comerica Park is considered a bar. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 550 Registered: 11-2004 |
The point is it's still a use that does not require dedicated parking. I didn't think it was that hard of a concept. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 580 Registered: 10-2003 |
The perfect use for the GAR is a mausoleum for dead bankers that wouldn't issue construction loans in Detroit. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2005 |
everytime i visit detroit which is quite often, i am amazed at the available parking in the downtown area and throughout the city. Never have i seen such a convenience for cars. this just amazes me. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2005 |
I, too, think it'd be the perfect nightclub/music venue. It'd be like the Spanish Castle Ballroom that used to stand south of Seattle that was the stomping ground for bands such as the Sonics and the Wailers: http://pnwbands.com/spanishcas tle.html For garage rock and "Nuggets" fans, the Wailers "Live at the Castle" is a staple that is not to be missed. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2005 |
Also, it's worth noting that Jimi Hendrix wrote "Spanish Castle Magic" about the Spanish Castle Ballroom . | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1608 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroit offers GAR Building for bids; historic preservation part of deal "For sale: One Detroit landmark. Condition: Fixer-upper. Satisfaction to be gained: Priceless." http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060927/BUS INESS04/609270335/1017/BUSINES S | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 69 Registered: 03-2006 |
Wow Kathleen thats great. Lets start this thread all over again | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 151 Registered: 11-2003 |
The parking situation all comes down to is how you finance a project and through whom. If you finance it yourself, it does not matter. Ndavies, do you have an Michigan lender for the Vinton? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2189 Registered: 10-2003 |
National city. I don't have 5.2 million in my pocket. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6939 Registered: 10-2003 |
So then you're just happy to see me? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 193 Registered: 04-2006 |
LOL | ||
Bindetroit Member Username: Bindetroit Post Number: 1259 Registered: 10-2003 |
Regarding Kales, dedicated parking was an absolute requirement of the lenders. The developers tried to get adjacent parking but Ilitch wouldn't cooperate at all. Plan "B" was valet parking (this was what was proposed in the original development plan and approved by the City) To make the project a reality, the City had to find a way to essentially privatize a portion of a bond-finaced public garage and the developer had to install a tunnel under a public street and make improvements to GCP Garage (some $850,000 to $1 million). | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1359 Registered: 11-2003 |
$1 million for renovation is a small enough amount that it's conceivable that a developer may not need financing. It'd be nice to see someone take a crack at a rehab without dedicated parking. Granted, it would be a niche market, but I think there's a small diehard group of urbanists out there who would be happy to pay, say, $850/month rent instead of $1000/month and line up their own parking somewhere else, or not have parking at all. Or, save $50,000 or whatever off the cost of a condo. (If dedicated parking for the Vinton came out to $40,000 per space, I'd imagine the cost would be higher for a smaller, irregularly shaped building like the GAR.) On a related note, I wonder if adding parking underneath the GAR would be a viable option. Would you be able to cut into the building, given the historic requirements? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2873 Registered: 08-2004 |
You would probably lose the historic tax credits (not to mention losing a significan portion of the ground floor to a basement ramp) in order to do what you suggest Dougw. IMHO, I believe that the city will be more eager to sell to someone that wants to turn it into an entertainment venue (restaurant, lounge, nightclub) than loft developments. But that's just my opinion. | ||
Sticks Member Username: Sticks Post Number: 109 Registered: 08-2005 |
Poll: Would anyone here live in a building downtown such as the Kales or the Vinton that didn't have an underground tunnel to parking or an attached parking garage? Would it deter you from living there even if you had to walk a block or two to a parking garage? Folks who live in the Lofts of Merchants Row do as well as people who live at Woodward Center Lofts. |
