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Detroitnerd
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Post Number: 679
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the CounterPunch website

The New Trade in Auto Parts

Made in (DeUnionized) America

By TIFFANY TEN EYCK and MARK BRENNER

Industry experts from Wall Street to Washington are busy writing the obituary of the U.S. auto industry--but someone needs to tell the Motor City. In sharp contrast to the current wave of buyouts at Ford, General Motors, and Delphi, new auto parts plants continue to spring up across Southeast Michigan.

Conditions in these plants-mostly non-union-bear little resemblance to those at the Big Three automakers.


HOPE FOR DETROIT?

Hope Global is an important (or "tier one") supplier of small parts to Lear and the Big Three. In the small shop located just outside of Detroit, workers-including many Mexican immigrants-do the difficult job of building auto interiors by hand.

More at http://counterpunch.org/teneyc k10062006.html
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Wash_man
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Post Number: 126
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are laws to protect the workers from not being paid overtime, no union required for that. Why don't the "immigrants" call the authorities? Because they are probably here illegally.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And if you blow the whistle, immigrant or citizen, you are fired. Enjoy waiting for your court case to come up. You'll be old and gray before you get your justice.

Workers will always need representation. It will always come up from the bottom. These days are more like the 30's than you know I guess.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 174
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All too often people fail to give the Unions due credit for their own high wages. People in factories making $18-$27 per hour, the upper pay being for skilled work, are the main reason engineers, managers, purchasing people and etc. are making $25 to $40 per hour. What these anti union boneheads don't get is if you get a factory guy out there who is making $25 / hr and replace him with a guy making $9 / hr. It's not going stop there. Managers will now look at the Engineer making $35 an hour and figure out a way to get him outta there to be replaced with a guy making $18 / hr. The same applies to school principles and administrators. The only reason they make their $80 to $200 K / year is because the Teacher's union was so skillful at getting their teacher's up to $70K / year. Getting rid of our unions to benefit businesses would be just as dumb as getting rid of the house’s foundation to make it easier to get up on the roof in the fall to clean out the gutters. And don’t think for one minute that cleaning shop and getting high wage workers outta of our factories is going to translate to cheaper products for the consumer, oh no, it all goes to the top company brass’s bank accounts. Trickle down? Sheeeiiiit! The only people that benefit from a rich executive will be the Bloomfield Hills Golf Club caddy or the Birmingham restaurant waiter will get slightly bigger tips. Or the realtor selling mansions in Florida may see a little up tick in sales.
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

People in factories making $18-$27 per hour, the upper pay being for skilled work, are the main reason engineers, managers, purchasing people and etc. are making $25 to $40 per hour.


That's an weak assertion that isn't borne out in the real world. Engineers, managers and other professionals earn the salaries they earn based on the labor market for their positions. The effect of unionized wages for different, lower-paid jobs like Pipefitter of Assembler on the labor market for professionals is minimal.

Look at managers and engineers in the heavily-unionized auto industry versus the sparsely-unionized computer industry. Auto managers/engineers don't earn more than computer managers/engineers. They probably earn significantly less since their industry is struggling.

Private industry unionization is down to 8%. If it were 40% - 60% or more it might have some effect on non-union non-similar labor markets, but that's certainly not the case today.


quote:

Getting rid of our unions to benefit businesses would be just as dumb as getting rid of the house’s foundation to make it easier to get up on the roof in the fall to clean out the gutters.


Actually successful, profitable businesses, not unions, are the foundation. Successful businesses make it possible for unions to claim a greater share of the "pie". There'd be no successful unions without successful businesses. Look how the decline of the Big 3 has decimated the ranks of the UAW, from 1.5 million members to around 600K. The UAW's complete dominance of the domestic auto industry hasn't lead to greater company success (they're a part of the industry's problem), or greater wages/benefits/security for white collar non-unionized auto employees (they're getting cut back too) or even greater executive compensation (auto industry exec salaries/bonuses are way smaller than more successful industries).


quote:

All too often people fail to give the Unions due credit for their own high wages.


Because no credit is due. Unions can be effective in raising wages of union members, but they don't have much carry over effect here in 2006.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 175
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Track 75, Unions are more prolific than you think. True, the UAW is only a shade of its former self, but look at most municipalities, police agencies, universities, and hospitals what have you? Unions! If the UAW was smart they'd be figuring out a way to get the dissidents in China and Mexico fired up by making them realize just how bad they are getting shafted so that there finally may be some sorely needed union efforts getting started in those countries. Because, as their wages go up, guess where it will be attractive to have factories again? That’s right, good ole D town.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Engineers and other professionals are in active competition for their work. That's totally dissimilar to the crock put forward in most of this thread so far. If engineers were unionized and their qualities were taken out of the equation (as do unions), how would a firm reward a truly good or, better yet, a superior one. The only practicable way would be to place them into management and pluck them out of the unions.

To apply the unions' "one size fits all" mentality for professionals is a fast, certain road to disaster. For actual examples of this, visit any DPS/DFT school or facility. But again, teachers aren't professionals regardless of how loudly or how many times they claim to be.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on October 06, 2006)
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian, the sectors of the economy where unions are still common are either declining private sector industries (autos, steel, rubber, airlines) or gov't/public sectors (municipalities, police agencies, universities, and hospitals per your listing) where there's little or no competition to temper the dominance of unions.

Unions today thrive only in dying industries or those sectors of the economy that lack competition. What does that signify?
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Detroitnerd
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correlation doesn't demostrate cause and effect.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 176
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the union model, you reward more productive or higher skilled workers by creating different job classifications of work that is needed. All workers have a fair shake at applying for these higher level jobs, not just the boss’s favorite golf buddy, like stated in the Livernois yard model. When I worked at Toledo Jeep BTW, the Industrial Engineers there were smart enough to be Unionized, so Unions aren’t just for blue-collar workers.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reporters at the newspapers would agree with you, Cambrian, as would teachers around the country. No matter what LY thinks.
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Detroitnerd, but everyone knows that. Have you pondered why the union model doesn't seem to work well in the more dynamic, successful sectors of the economy?
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know the question wasn't posed to me, but define what is a successful sector vs an unsuccessful one.
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Ray
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm very skeptical about this article and ths publication generally.

Unfortunately for us, the trend of low wage supplier plants "popping up in Southeast Michigan" is more in the imagination of the author than in reality. We have an intense de-industrialization of the region.

The examle he cites, Hope Global of Detroit is a minority owned business that is affiliated with Hope Global, a 100 year old textile company. Hhttp://www.rtlf-hope.com/

The address is 25215 Glendale Rd., Redford, MI 48239. It would be interesting if someone from the forum could drive by to investigate. The author makes claims of unfair conditions, but virtually no substantiation.

Interestingly, he calls Hope Global a tier one suppplier because its "important". As most of us know, this is not a tier one supplier and that 's not the defintion of teir one supplier. He might as well have said "Hope Global, a major money center bank (because it uses checks for its payroll)" So, out of the chutes, I'm wondering what other license he's taking with his facts.
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray, the authors are union activists who publish a newsletter. Nothing wrong with that, but the story isn't exactly ripped from CNN Headline News or ...(pick a "straight" news outlet).
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Mjb3
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In 2001 ArvinMeritor built brand new plant in SW Detroit(Fort & Livernois). In fact, it was built on brownfield(old fisher body) with tons of tax incentives.

Within 3 yrs of being open, the UAW organized the plant. Now if you were any major Tier 1 supplier, why would you build in SE Mich. when you can build in Ky, Al,Mex,China, etc???
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian, a successful sector is one that is earns an appropriate return on capital for its owners. They tend to be growing rather than shrinking. They create jobs. They innovate. They satisfy their consumer base.
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Detroitnerd
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track 75, if everybody knows that correlations don't demonstrate cause and effect, I think you had better make your point better, because you're only making a correlative point, which, as everybody knows (apparently) doesn't demonstrate anything.
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitnerd, here's the point. Unions today are generally found in formerly successful industries that used to be able to afford the higher costs and inefficiencies inherent in a unionized work force. Or they are found in areas like government and education that are insulated from the financial consequences of non-competitiveness in the "real world".

They generally are not found in fast growing knowledge-based sectors like IT or financial services except at the lowest, least skilled levels.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 178
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track 75 mentioned the software industry. So we'll take a look that. No unions out there in San Jose? Possibly; This is still a relatively young industry which started burgeoning in the mid 80s. You need a high level of skill to enter this new field, so at the time the relatively few people there are to fill the demand are compensated well and treated fairly. No need for unions yet. Fast forward another twenty, maybe ten, years when India’s, Pakistan’s, China’s (Hell Pick any county in the region with a competent university) high tech firms get more competitive and start wooing the work away from San Jose to Shanghai. How does this happen? Well Sayed who works in San Jose, misses home and decides to give up his $120K salary to return to Pakistan to start his own Software Architecture firm. The US firms realize that some of the work has to stay here for a variety of reasons, but cannot help holding their programmer’s feet to the fire and comparing them to their low wage comrades in Bulgaria. That’s right Steve! Boris in Russia will work twelve-hour shifts for $40 per day, what will you do to keep your job? See how fast the techies in Silicon valley start looking for their card check (How a Union gets voted in) forms.
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A plausible scenario, Cambrian, one that's already happening to a degree.

Do you really think that unionization will help the remaining workers? If there's a suitable alternative somewhere else in the world, unionization here will only help the company shift even more work out of the US.

Unionization isn't the solution in that sort of situation. It's much easier to unionize workers that have to be in the US (hotel workers, teachers) or workers at companies that produce products with high shipping costs (cars, steel).

BTW, is it bad for non-Americans to do knowledge work? It seems to me that good jobs ought not be reserved just for the US.
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Detroitnerd
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, what is the cause and what is the effect, Track?
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Ndavies
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually Cambrian, programmers are a dead end job. While many companies are shifting programming over to china and india, the truly innovative companies are doing away with programmers all together. If I can create specifications well enough for a programmer in another country to do the work, I can specify it well enough for a computer to do the work.

In the aerospace and automotive industries more and more code is being generated by requirements capture packages. This is an ongoing trend that will do away with low level programmers.

It will return the work to the mechanical, electrical and process engineers. There will be no need for these engineers to require the support of software engineers as processing power and the sophistication of code generators increases.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Foreigners’ doing knowledge-based work is not bad Track 75. So long as the other country is committed to paying and treating their workers fairly. We, as good global citizens, should want to bring them up to our standards, not us having to shrink to theirs to remain competitive just to benefit our country’s rich people.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From an economic POV, the unions shared in the "excess profits" that the Detroit Three were able to extract out of the buying public after WWII, when the majority of the rest of the industrial nations were recovering from the war. That meant that the unions agreed to not strike in return for "their" share of the excess profits. However, the car-buying public was somehow screwed in that they had to pay more for less car as a result.

When Japan and Europe recovered enough to pose a threat to the Detroit Three, they did just that. Also, the concurrent, gradual demise of the US private and public school systems (especially in engineering and IT) virtually assured that the US would approach second-rate status, as now. Other unions had a hand in effecting (and affecting) that also.

The US is still prosperous, but the world is now highly competitive. Many US industries, such as TV and stereos, etc.) have disappeared at least two decades ago. The auto sector is definitely following along the same road, albeit more slowly.
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Track75
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

So long as the other country is committed to paying and treating their workers fairly.


"Fair" being defined not by that country's free labor market, but by the US wage structure? Why is our wage structure the "right" one for everyone else?

The cost of living is lower in many other countries. Requiring artificially high wages in other countries is just another form of protectionism for uncompetitive US industries/workers. It shifts money from the general public to the protected workers. The effect on the "country's rich people" is a red herring.
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_sj_
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Track 75 mentioned the software industry. So we'll take a look that. No unions out there in San Jose? Possibly; This is still a relatively young industry which started burgeoning in the mid 80s. You need a high level of skill to enter this new field, so at the time the relatively few people there are to fill the demand are compensated well and treated fairly. No need for unions yet. Fast forward another twenty, maybe ten, years when India’s, Pakistan’s,




I disagree that correction happened 5 years ago as the overpaid non-skilled tasks were jettisoned and farmed off.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian, there have been several serious attempts to organize the software/programmers. The workers were fired the moment they tried.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The anti-union people seem to be winning this thread. If there's competion with union labor, the union looses. People vote with their wallet and go with the cheaper alternative. Only if the union product is better do they have a chance. And given how the union model removes incentives to excel, everybody gets the same pay regardless, there's not much chance for a better product. This from an ex-member of 4 unions, including the UAW.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The anti union people are not winning this thread. The only competition here is the race to the bottom, and they're driving the bus.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How True OldRed, it's a misnomer that all union jobs pay high wages, I met an older guy who worked at a supplier in Madison Heights. He was paid the princely sum of $13 / hr. Yes, he's Union too. Like I said earlier, people just don't realize when the blue collar worker gets screwed out of a decent wage, thier own wages are not far behind.
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Wcpo_intern
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Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cabrian, how has the Jeep Toledo plant been doing since adding another layer of unions to the mix? Last time I drove by there, they had more cars outside than I've ever seen, and that's with production cuts. Now, they are forcing suppliers to use their empty space or they won't buy from them. Sounds pretty sad and desperate to me.

How have the unionized steel plants fared against the non-unionized plants in the last 30 years? A few years ago, 26 of the 32 steel companies were in bankruptcy, and during that time the non-unionized facilities have been eating the union guys lunches. I see the automotive sales trends every week. Time and time again, I see the unionized companies report sale declines and the non-unionized reporting sale increases.

How about heavily unionized states versus the states with low unionized participation? I wouldn't exactly taut the UAW as the idealized way to handle workers and build an economy.

If you've ever worked with management in both situations you'll understand the real destructive nature of unions. Unions spend the largest chunk of their resources protecting the absolute laziest, rudest, most insubordinate workers in their ranks. This causes management to treat these guys like the babies they are. However, the union insists all union members must be treated the same, so management treats everyone like their five which is a gigantic waste of company resources. Then, because the workers don't get any respect, a large number of them quit putting any effort into the company which undermines company morale. This causes the company to lose its respect and competitive position and have to lay off workers. Blaming the management for the layoffs, some of the remaining workers even become some of the laziest, rudest, most insubordinate workers you'll ever see, thus keeping the downward cycle going. Any of this sound familiar?
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Ray
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Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would be very surprized to see technology engineers or programmeres in Silicon Valley unionize on any large scale.

Unions form because companies, especially monstrosities like GM and Ford, have so much power relative to individual workers that workers can only negotiate as a collective. That's understandable and not necessarilyi bad.


In Silicon Valley, the vast majority of companies are a tiny fraction of the size of a GM or Ford, there are thousands of alternative employers and in fact companies cater to their employees to keep them. Competing for talent is as important as competng for cusotmers. Plus, their is a fierce sense of individuality and autonomy. It's really a very different mentality than you see around Detroit.

I don't think unions are a bad idea, but the specific unions we have operating like the UAW have been horribly destructive. This doesn't absolve managment of its failures. The two groups have failed miserably and the consequence of their failures will be a loss of: (a) manufacturing base in Michigan; and (b) independent control over GM and Ford.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What sounds familiar is the same old tired song about unions protecting the laziest rudest etc members. Horseshit. We can produce a useless level of management for every lazy worker, and play that game until the cows come home. What we have here is class politics, insulting American workers who have historically been among the most productive workers in history! The failure of the auto and steel industry have more to do with corporate greed - higher CEO salaries and shareholder returns - and a failure of imagination and inability to change their product to the times.

I stand behind the quality of US made cars. Detroit workers have made excellent cars for 100 years, and that quality and work ethic created the middle class.

The computer industry will crack, because as more and more Americans go without health insurance it will continue to be an organizing force.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is it so hard to accept that the market for labor determines what you get paid? Supply and Demand. Lots of unskilled people, not much demand for them, low wages. A company can't compete if they pay higher wages than market. They're toast. Highly skilled people that can earn high profits for their employer; high wages. Your labor has to produce an added value of at least twice what you're paid, including all the benefits, for you to be worth employing.

About now the socialists among us will chime in with if everyone was unionized everything be great. Here's a thought experiment; everyone's in a union, not just the 35% at the peak in 1955. They threaten to go on strike if they don't get wages they find acceptable. Management will just raise prices to cover the higher costs, so they go along. So the non-union restaurant meal that was $10 is now $14. The non-union sofa that was $500 is now $800. Realize that all the formly non-union inputs to the restaurant and the furniture factory have gone up as well, not just the wages paid the workers. This happens with almost everything you buy.

The 35% of workers that were originally unionized notice their standard of living has taken a major hit. The 65% that are newly getting higher wages don't seem to think they're doing that much better. Everything is a lot more expensive than it was a couple of years ago. They're better off, but not as much as their wage increases would have predicted.

So what do they do? Bargain for higher wages to get back ahead of the curve. Of course it doesn't work, everybody ends up with more money but prices jump again. Economists call it a wage-price spiral. Last one we had was 1965 to about 1981. Notice how it ended when the union power waned?

Think I'm full of it? When the UAW got a cost of living agreement in 1948 or so, it was because inflation had been 15% a year in 46 and 47. If everyone had that power, the low inflation 50's and early 60's would have never happened.

The real advantage of a union was the ability to extort an above market wage while being able to spend that above market wage in an economy that paid market wages to the other 65%. Of course now the figures are 12% and 88%.

The answer to this is you have to have a skill, the more valuable, the better the wage.

Why do you think Granholm is obsessing about higher education? She understands.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 181
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Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's too funny to me how you righties will get all red faced and jump and down because some fat lazy line worker gets benefits and $25 hr, but think it's OK for some exective who takes 90 minute lunches at the titty bar getting 300K / yr, (often more) is Hunky Dory! I worked as an Engineer and I have many family members who are still high ups in GM, I know why the US companies are really going belly up. Get a clue people! I'm sure you will when in 10 years, the best job you can find is runnin' the local Dairy Queen.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doesn't the name "Fortress Warren" say it all? Those were the good, old days, remember? You know, the days were you could keep your community "clean." lol Seriously, what more needs to be said?
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan, I picked that name intentionally. I've been reading this forum for the last couple of years. It has a real leftward tilt starting with fearless leader and moving on down. It needed some balance,IMHO. I live in the SF Bay Area, it's ground zero for leftys. California became a majority minority state a couple of years ago. I live the diversity every day. Warren's starting to see the same thing. We don't have the racial issues you still do. It's all mixed up and shaken up out here.I'm sure you've seen the articles in the Free Press and the News about middle class blacks leaving Detroit and moving to Fortress Warren. They want a better life and they think they can find it in Fortress Warren.

Warren's mayor doesn't want the underclass to move to Warren, that's what prompted the Fortress Warren comment from him. No one wants to live with the underclass. Go to the Dakota's or Montana. No minorities there. Only white trash. They aren't welcome. It's not melanine content, it's the mullet, '81 Camaro, meth mouth, skank girlfriend. It's not racial, it's class. My mother tells me there's about 5 black families on the street, wouldn't know except for when she sees them mowing the lawn or going to work. They fit in. They're middle class.

And Cambrian, nice straw dog argument. You could pay everyone in management at the Big 3 a dollar a year and it still wouldn't change a thing. It's the blue collar that's the problem. They outnumber the tittie bar patrons by about a thousand to one. I was one of those lazy line workers, I wasn't fat then, working on the massive girth now. I used to hump 70 tons a night. Try that.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 182
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 1:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fortress Warren-Ok, but I worked as an Engineer at GM and as a Teamster at a Food warehouse, my union job was way harder then my engineering job. We had to work through breaks to meet unfair targets set by management, suffer through mandatory over time routinely that kept us working until up to five hours after our shifts were supposed to end with no notice, arbitrary schedule and day off changes with out notice, and work in unsafe conditions. Why? because the sleeze bags we worked for had their master's degrees, thought they were so sharp and hated unions! Much like some of the people on this forum. Can you imagine if the working class exacted the same treatment towards the upper class that the upper class dumps on them? Worth mentioning too...all the UAW people with the exception of a very few, when I worked at GM and a little at Ford and Chrysler were full of integrity, hard working and fiercely loyal to their companies. Lampooning them because they expect a living wage is about as reprehensible as the white trash guys you speak of going around knocking girls up and then having the nerve to complain their child support payments are too high.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 1:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian, I'm surprised you were wailed on with a teamsters contract. Back in the day the teamsters would throw a picket line around that warehouse and refuse to deliver anything or take anything out. They used to shoot scabs driving a truck during a strike. A picket line would have been like sleep walking. Were they asleep? The UAW would have been in management's face. And then the warehouse would close and it would be a moot point.

I agree about the pricks with masters', the company I worked for 10 years ago had Coopers&Lybrandt look at all the departments. The 27 year old MBA spoke with my boss for 3 hours about what the department did. His recommendation was to shut us down. They did. I had other irons in the fire, so I wasn't panhandling.

It's a different world from 40 or 50 years ago. Then it was secure, at least by the standards of today. Now you probably have to have a couple of irons in the fire at the same time to survive. You sound like you did that, going from working in a warehouse to being an engineer. That's going to have to be the default position, not a last resort.

How did you pick a geological epoch for a username? I've always been a geology buff.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 184
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 2:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hippy parents! That is my actual name, Sad to say, I went the other way Engineer to Union guy. When the mass layoffs a few years back left me out of a job, I felt a Union job would be a safe place to hang out while I went back to College to make my self more marketeble for getting back into Engineering. Boy was I wrong, the turkey's kept changing my nights off, it was an afternoon shift job to begin with, so not knowing what nights you were going to have off, plus often having to work until 9 am made taking classes impossible. I had to get outta there completely before I could focus on school. Actually I did got fired for that whole having to work through break thing when mgt tried the cute speed up tactics. Teamster's is in the process of getting me the job back with back pay, that takes a bit of time. Which is fine with me, I take my settlement check and pay off the student loans, and I have better degree. No, I'm a big believer in unions, you still get screwed over, but you have a voice, and in my case the back pay and all that too will send the company a message that kind of bullshit they pulled on us costs them big money. The best way to hurt those kind of people is to hit em in the wallet. Without a union you often can't do that. Most jobs nowadays make you sign these employee at will forms which takes away your right to sue for wrongful discharge.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1562
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 3:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Most jobs nowadays make you sign these employee at will forms which takes away your right to sue for wrongful discharge."


I find this being socialistic [wanting a "no-fired" clause] in that the firm has to keep you or somebody on its payroll if somebody else is more useful or will work for less--all other things being equal. It's comparable to a Detroit Tiger telling Ilitch that he's stuck with him, if it's not mutually agreed on by both parties in a firm contract.

Why should auto workers (or comparable, easily replaceable unskilled to semi-skilled workers) think that they are entitled to this type of toe hold on their jobs?

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on October 09, 2006)
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Miss_cleo
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why should auto workers (or comparable, easily replaceable unskilled to semi-skilled workers) think that they are entitled to this type of toe hold on their jobs?




dont start this again. What makes you think auto workers are unskilled/semi-skilled? People who work at MCDonalds are unskilled. Get a clue
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get a clue? What's the difference between the McDonald's worker and the auto worker? Both earn a living doing repetive tasks with very little training required. The difference in incomes is because of the union representation for the auto worker. Thanks for pointing out how the unions inflate the value of the job.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An auto worker is working in a much more dangerous environment than a McDonalds worker (who by the way, could stand to make more money). An auto worker does jobs they can't replace with machinery or they would have by now.

I find it fascistic that Americans want to hold back wages because they themselves aren't making the same.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 185
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok Union ism 101 class for the righties. All a union does is arrange a contract between the company and the employees the union represents. Then the union as a good steward of that contract will make sure the contract language is enforced. You know those little things "contracts" that companies just love so much? Like the mortgage company that gets you to sign that nasty little one that has your interest rates ratcheting up yearly until you can't afford your house note any longer? Or how about when Wal Mart arranges a cutthroat contract with the return on profit so low, that the supplier is forced to go to China? Not all union contracts are created equal either, a small percentage of union workers do quite well, with a greater percentage of them making wages slightly above poverty level. If a company falls from profitability, they have the right to negotiate a contract at the next interval that has lower pay scales. Yes contracts are good when they benefit a rich company with pampered shareholders, but evil when they benefit working people who have kids heck, often extended family too to take care of. The people that opine that blue collar workers are not owed anything need to remember that remark when they hit their late 50s, and their job is threatened by the young buck fresh out of grad school who will do the 50 year old’s job with enthusiasm at half the wage. But hey 55 year old, not to worry, Home Depot can always use another greeter
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's just what the Lions need--more 55-year-old, premium-priced players instead of healthy, stronger 23-year-olds. Yup! That'll up the attendance and viewers.

Fortunately, that part of the Ford family enterprises isn't quite as stupid as the FMC.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 186
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah! Like that one sci-fi.... Movie what was it? When you hit the age of 30, you are automatically assassinated. Who needs em' around? Just a burden on society that will require Medicaid, social security someday or something anyway.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Face it! Unionized workers in industry are dinosaurs, and outside of SE Michigan, nobody really cares if they lose their jobs or not. The UAW members at the assembly plants will be much, much lower in numbers after the next contract in 2007. The jobs bank will be history, and their numbers at Ford and GM probably will be below a critical mass to amount to much.

The UAW already tipped its hand and will stage its final stand at DCX. Other than that, these UAW jobs at the Tiers will be coming in at around $12 to $16/hr with fewer perks and a much larger medical copay.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 187
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, and so goes everyone else's wages go cascading down, while thier medical contributions sky rocket up. Once they win that 07 battle as you call it with the UAW, the white collar people who are left are next.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tough! The Golden Goose died...
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 188
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More or less the golden goose was fleeced, but not by the farmer, but the instead the greedy landowner that sharecropped the farm to the farmer.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Logan's Run,1976.

When the government prevented hiring replacement workers with the Wagner Act back in the 30's, the union had the gun at management's head. When Reagan decertified PATCO in '81, everything changed. Now the company looks at how difficult it would be to replace the workers. No or low skilled, pretty easy. Skilled trades, another thing. Moral: Get skills. One probably isn't going to be enough.

My first job was working the window at McDonalds. That took way more brains than anything I did in the UAW. I didn't have the calculating register, had to add everything up. They actually called the high school to see what kind of grades I was getting.

Assembly line:put part here, press the two green buttons. Didn't work? Call the jobsetter. Five minutes was the longest training I got.

Cambrian, your last name Shield? Couldn't resist.:-) Your best choice is not the union job, but one in a company that's expanding and making profits. That's where the job security might be. But that seems to be rare in Michigan.

It's never going to be like it was during the post WW2 boom. Those were unique years and it would take another world war that we won without having the US trashed to get again. Destroy all the competion, you can have the 50's and 60's again. Not that I'm advocating that.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 189
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Naw my last name is layer. Yes, not too many growing companies left around the D. When I get the Master's I'll look here and elsewhere, not too tickled about leaving though, got a near teen age daughter. The teen age years are when the father is needed to be around the most.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

12 year old daughter? You're going to have lots of fun for the next couple of years. They seem to go nuts about then. She'll come back to Planet Earth about 14. I've seen this pattern with almost ever kid I've been around. Boys go nuts at 15. They return at 17. Good luck with the job search.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1570
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try to go in business for yourself if you have any marketable skills, etc. Currently, I'm telecommuting--no driving hassles. Otherwise, there are gigs where I would have to work on site.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 190
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Self-employment can work… it depends though. My father and uncle are both self-employed, and do quite well. However they owe a large part of that success to their wives (My mom and my Aunt) who had secure jobs with good benefits. Ergo, the men were not encumbered to take a job that provided a regular paycheck, benefits and pension, because the wives had it covered, was a gamble that paid off very well for them. Can single guys like me still become successfully self employed? Sure! But it's a bit more of a challenge. My buddy has been trying unsuccessfully to get a good business going over the last six years, but will routinely have to stop and take something more secure, because he is the breadwinner and his wife does not work.
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 1571
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eventually, all professional auto jobs will be similar to this:
TAC Automotive.

When telecommuting for Freescale Semiconductor last year, an arrangement was worked out for doing it through TAC Worldwide--the parent of TAC Automotive. They (TAC Auto) have their HQ somewhere in Oakland County and a sales office in one of the Fairlane offices west of the Southfield FWY. Having their sales office near Ford and their giving Ford bennies for new vehicle purchases seem to imply that Ford is connected with TAC in a major way...
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Ray
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Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fortress Warren, you are so on the money.

Unions extract above market wages for their workers that come at the expense of other working people who buy their products. Where do people imagine the revenues of GM come from? Heaven? They come 100% out of the pocket books of people who buy the cars.

If McDonald workers were unionized and made $20 per hour (per the suggestion above) there would be no McDonalds because the hamburger would cost $10 instead of $4 and that would be the end of the market for fast food.

The goal is not to fight zero sum class warfare but to increase the productivity of all members of society.
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Miss_cleo
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 7:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is it that people here who have never worked in a shop or been in a Union think they know the real story?

Its really funny to see you spouting off about things you dont know.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miss Cleo, I was in 4 unions including the UAW. I worked on an assembly line for 2 years. I was an econ major in college. I think I understand how the economy actually functions. Not some utopian fantasy about equality for all.

People aren't equal, and the only way you could try to make everyone equal is to have a central government so powerful that it controls everything. Soviet Union? I think we know how that worked.

So, what are your qualifications?
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 1580
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is it that some village idiots keep harping about those people who choose not to have unions represent them? Many above-average workers are able to secure better positions than afforded at the one-size-fits-all union shops where the most incompetent are compensated exactly the same as the best with the same time-in-grade.

Besides, almost everybody has worked at a union shop at one time or another. Which brings us to the current topic: Just who's doing all the idiotic spouting, Missy? It appears to be you...
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Miss_cleo
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes, guarenting a person a living wage is idoitic isnt it?

How many of you here have kids, a family to support? If you do you must know that it cant be done on 8 dollars an hour.
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Pffft
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Post Number: 1113
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All I see here are the usual anti-union suspects spouting the same rhetoric.

Who's paying you to talk and vote against your own economic interests? If you guys aren't managers making a healthy six figure salary, you're idiots.

It's like when I see a beater with a "Bush" bumper sticker on it. Oh, right fella, the Republicans are gonna help you out. Just stay the course!
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Lowell
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very good discussion; kudos to all...

I came to the D in the sixties because I could earn a decent wage to pay my through college by working on the assembly line with UAW contract wages. Two previous summers of dangerous work at near minimum wages made me appreciate not only the earnings but even the respect that a union contract brought with it, no arbitrary firing so a foreman's cousin could get your job, level of work determined by seniority and other non-fiscal benefits.

What the unions of those days, for all their faults, brought was social justice which, as others noted above, spread out to non-union and lower management. If you worked hard, you really could own a home and a car, afford health care, send your kids to college and retire with some comfort. In most cases this is going or gone. That is what concerns me the most as we move forward.

The reason for this is easy to see and is beyond the powers of labor or management to control; it is rooted in the transformation from an industrial to an information based economy enhanced by a free trade agreements.

The increased mobility of capital has combined with short business lives to reduce us all to role of free agents in a global labor market. There is still some shelter in law, such as minimum wage, workmen’s comp and other legal protections of labor, but even those are under attack.

Instead of the 20th C factory with its ornamented architecture expressing visions of permanence and lifetime employment followed by comfortable retirement, we have businesses forming and fading on a project by project basis.

In some ways, I embody that movement, working out my home and operating my own company with less than ten percent of my business in Detroit and most of it outside the country. The fact that I live in the D is purely by choice. I could be anywhere as long as I have a laptop and a broadband connection. The projects we take on require assembling teams of likewise detached associates and our affiliations dissolve upon completion -- almost no overhead, no long term obligations, everything mobile and transient.

If I hadn’t experienced years of hard labor as an employee of huge companies, I could take the ‘I got mine so screw’em, let’em all sink or swim’ attitude toward labor. But I can’t and to do so is, IMO, bad for our country not to mention our morals.

There seems to be no effective way for labor to organize in such a setting and this model is here to stay. Those of us who figure it out are doing fine, but how can we insure social justice and spread of the bounty without ending up in a third world society of the well-off and masses of poor with no middle class?

That is elephant in my room of social justice and the answer I am looking for. The myth of free market forces magically working it all out does not fly for me either as I watch the ‘race to the bottom’ gain speed.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points Lowell, I think as Americans we of late are veeerrry complacent. Not at all like our militant parents or even ourselves were in the 70s. Why this is, who knows? Possibly, this is because we believe if we blindly trust those in power we will be taken care of somehow. Even as time and time again the actions of the greedy power structure. Corporate or federal proves to be other wise. In counties like France, companies would never be allowed to get away with what our US companies pull. When the CEO of Renault partnered up with AMC and had the new Bramalea plant constructed outside of Toronto to build the new full size Renaults there rather then in France, he was assassinated, Literally! Now, I don’t advocate killing people, but it is just peculiar to me how willingly we give up our jobs and livelihoods without even the slightest protest, just so the guy in Grosse Pointe can buy another Bentley. Also of interest is this whole North Korea fiasco, note they share a border with China. Lots of our businesses have big capital tied up in China, so you can bet we are going to be spending our tax dollars to protect the rich guy’s assets over there. True enough, the taxes won’t go up to cover that, no republican likes to raise taxes. But that means no Federal dollars for Cities like Detroit that sorely need it, no new libraries, no more tuition assistance for the kid from the working class family to go to college. Yes, being able to get the shoes at Wal Mart for $20, rather then paying a $100 for them to keep an American working is going to cost us way more than what we thought we were saving.
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Hugo8100
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can't wish away comparitive advantage. You can take the position that we need to outlaw the sun so the candle makers will always have work, but it's unattainable and foolish.

That creaky organizational tool called the "Union" is not the be all end all of worker organization. Nostalgia towards to the old inefficient tool (that's all organizations of any kind are, a tool) isn't helping anyone in the realities of today.

To be anti-union does not mean anti worker or anti worker organization. I do believe that any worker organization that wants to be successfull will have to ditch many parts of the old model. Seniority cannot rank over performance. Job security can no longer be seen as more important than training and education of new skills.

Social justice is a whole other matter. When people voluntarily organize to elevate its members, it's just. When the mob (or corporation for the anti-corporate people) uses government to do its plundering, not so just.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The focus of the union movement is increasingly among the lower rungs of the working world; the maintenance workers, the retail sector, the health care worker. This is where the trickle down theory turns to sludge and where the fight will be.

The right on this forum will sneer as usual, braying that low skill workers don't deserve any more than a pittance, but history shows where let 'em eat cake got the French aristocracy.

We can also see the result of those manufacturing jobs in Korea - climbing unionization rates. Some day we'll look at Korea and India, at their prosperous middle class, decent standard of living. Those jobs will all be union and we'll envy their lives.

The union movement is far from perfect, and is incredibly short-sighted about what is looming ahead of them. But as a skilled worker, I value my union and what it got for me in my workplace. For these gifts, I am an asset to my company and my department there. As long as they don't grade me on my attitude, I figure my job as a union member is to be the best person on the job. I can point you to a *ahem* non-union worker on my job, who is in his 11th year of training. They keep him because he is boinking the secretary, but for 11 years, he has been unable to do the job. The best part? Because of the laws passed by people like LYard, the union has to defend him if he gets in trouble for incompetence. We are obliged to represent everybody, union or not. In this case, you are right, we do have to defend useless employees. If he was gone, I could do my job better. Nice job, LY!
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But that means no Federal dollars for Cities like Detroit that sorely need it, no new libraries, no more tuition assistance for the kid from the working class family to go to college."


I, for one, and others refuse to be taken in by this phony issue. Polls, both recent and older, repeatedly showed that Metro Detroiters, being quite relatively anti-intellectual compared to others across the nation, do not value higher education for themselves or their children. You can Google this for yourself.

Michigan, as a whole ranks 39th (down from 36th in 2000) in per-capita college education. Metro Detroit, and not just the city, ranks 22nd out of the 24 largest municipalities. Yet, unionists keep harping on not being able to afford college tuitions at any of the state universities.

That any UAW auto-plant worker "cannot afford" this on an average salary based on $28/hr, not counting any overtime and $11,000 annually of prepaid healthcare insurance, and two or three **decades** of retirement from a job that many hard workers outside of the UAW would consider retirement already is utter bull shit. And yet this ridiculous "not-able-to-afford-state-coll ege" claim was again made--right here on DY. Remarkable.

In all politeness, just whom are you trying to bamboozle?

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on October 10, 2006)
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 193
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY your stats, if they are true, are not because Detroiters are inherently dumber people. Rather the good jobs go away, the upper educated people get out of dodge to follow the good paying jobs. College graduates around here go where the work is. The good paying techie jobs come back and so will the techies. I really don't believe how educated a city is makes one snort of a difference when a company decides to come to or leave from a city. They can import any brainpower they need.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your governor uses those same stats in order to funnel more state spending to the unionized teachers--her secondmost source of political campaign funding next to the "slip-and-fall" tort attorneys.
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_sj_
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I once had a car dealer tell me that 97% of their business is from Big 3 employees. Remember that next time cuts are coming. 97% of their sales are discounted 6k+ and you can't understand why the car companies can't continue to pay these outrageous salaries and benefits.

Grocery workers for the UFCW shop at Wal-Mart becuase the prices are lower but demand raises.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grocery workers for the UFCW still don't make much money. WalMart is the company store. For everyone.

Since there are less auto workers in Detroit area right now, how are car sales doing? How about boat sales? Home sales? Retail sales? Restaurant business, how's that going? Drive around the retail districts, how many empty store fronts do you see? Northern Michigan, how's business up there?
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Cambrian
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't know about the UFCW, but the Teamster's stay out of Wal Mart. One union meeting they were discussing "calling out" other members who got their scrips filled at Wal Mart. The local knows, because the Teamster's Health & Welfare tells who does it and who doesn't. I loved those Union Meetings. Always hated going to church when I was a kid, but when ole Larrry Brennan would preach to us about Wal Mart and all the mother sow companies like 'em, I tell you that was a sermon I could attend over and over again.
True Old Red, we in Detroit were the most loyal to the big three even though the cars they put out there were often not as good as the imports. The exec's took that for granted and were stupid enough to think that when they got rid of us, people would still want their shoddy products.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I take issue with "shoddy product". My car was (mostly) made in Wayne Michigan and has been a perfect vehicle. I wish it got better gas mileage but I stand by (and drive in) my UAW car.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Me 2! My truck was built in Warren, but it's subjective, take the union jobs Wayne employs off the table I would buy a Civic over a Focus in heartbeat, but would stand firm on my D150 up against a Tundra or titan. All a matter of taste.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Re Wal-mart and unions, teachers union in Washington state had a policy of reimbursing a teacher that bought shoes, coats, hats, for their poorer students. After something like 90% of the receipts coming from Wal-mart, they sent out a memo; no more Wal-mart reciepts will be paid.

The Wal-mart bashing I love. Somebody does it right and they get attacked. The people that get hurt when Wal-mart comes to town are the greedy rich bastards that own the local stores. You know, the ones that live in GP. Or the OC. Their workers don't make anymore than Wal-mart pays.

Let's see, there must be some Union angle here??? Oh yeah, the UFCW assumes room temperature.

That was another union I was in. Actually I think I was in the other half as well, Retail Clerks. Did they merge? I could start a paper recycling business with all the withdrawl cards I collected over the years. Still one more union to go.

The race to the bottom is the race to the market. You get paid your market worth. That WILL be less than a union wage, has to be, those were inflated from the flawed bargaining process.
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Jams
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The people that get hurt when Wal-mart comes to town are the greedy rich bastards that own the local stores.



vs.
"The Walton family is the richest family in the world, their wealth based on the work of Sam Walton and Bud Walton, the founders of Wal-Mart."
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I wanted a job I'd ask a rich person before asking one who can barely maintain himself...
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:vs.
"The Walton family is the richest family in the world, their wealth based on the work of Sam Walton and Bud Walton, the founders of Wal-Mart."

And your point is? I can spend $10 for something at the local store or $6 at Wal-mart. Anyway I look at this, I'm $4 richer.

What's with the class envy? Somebody provided something a lot of people wanted. They got rich. Think Henry Ford. Try it. Then you, too,can live in GP. Can I come visit? I always liked GP. I was just a prole living in Fortress Warren.
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Jams
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You were the one who accused the local owners of being "Greedy, rich bastards".

I just pointed out the Walton family is the richest in the world.

That comparison must have hit a nerve. And yes I prefer to support a local merchant whenever possible. Possibly one of those "greedy, rich bastards" might create their own successful business that also hires people, maybe at a livable wage.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Except Ole Henry was a job's creator not a jobs destroyer like the Waltons. Henry would have never bought into the idea of workers building his products that could never afford to buy them like his Great Grandson seems to think would have fixed all his troubles.
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56packman
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fortress-Warren: Wal Mart likes you to believe that the thing you are holding in your hand at their store is the identical item that you could buy at another store, just cheaper--due to W-M's massive purchasing/distribution. In some cases that is true--let's say a can of Campbell's soup. In other products, Wal-Mart is going to the manufacturer (such as Hanes) and having a "Wal-Mart" grade of tighty-whities made that are not comparable to the quality of product they make for sale at other retailers. In your mind you see the Hanes logo, you may be aware of what the "same thing" costs at another store, and think that you are getting a bargan, but all things being equal, you are only getting what you pay for--180 grit underwear. Manufacturers who hitch their star to Wal-Mart are shaking hands with the Devil. Wal-Mart preyed on Levi's during their darkest hour, and resulted in the work going overseas to Asia. Vlasik pickle, a great, long standing Detroit brand got the shit end of the stick from the good folks in Bentonville. They live by the sword, and don't play fair.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes! I laugh my ass off at Wal Mart too when city's like Chicago and Livonia say "piss on you!"
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Jams
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

56packman
Your comments about Vlasic piqued my curiousity and a quick goggle brought me this article about Wal-mart and its relationship with suppliers:

http://www.fastcompany.com/mag azine/77/walmart.html


quote:

The giant retailer's low prices often come with a high cost. Wal-Mart's relentless pressure can crush the companies it does business with and force them to send jobs overseas. Are we shopping our way straight to the unemployment line?


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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:
"That comparison must have hit a nerve."

No, I wasn't sure what you were getting at. The local merchant I'm sure has a higher profit margin than Wal-mart. Also higher costs. They also don't pay living wages.

The Waltons figured it out. Buy right, you can sell right. Go read Sam Walton's autobiography, he started with a Ben Franklin store, he had to buy his stock from them and couldn't make a profit; Ben Franklin did.

Isn't Wal-mart the largest employer in the country? If they paid $20 an hour with full UAW style benefits the unions would be bragging about it, not ripping them. But of course Wal-mart would be struggling, nowhere near their size, if they did. They'd be like Topps, they had a union contract and got killed by non-union Kmart.

15,000 people applied to work in that Chicago area store. Must be a real shithole. Maximum Leader Daly, vetoed the Wal-mart bashing law. He seems to get it. Not sure what Fortress Livonia was thinking. I guess they didn't want the sales tax revenue. Or jobs. They rather have Wonderland sitting empty.

The walking shorts I'm wearing at the moment, I do wear pants, are Wal-mart. Looked at the tag, Bangladesh. $4.97 a pair. I bought 4 pairs for messing around in the garage. Fours years later, one of them is finally getting threadworn. I wear these almost everyday, they must grow cotton that is a close kin to kevlar. And none of the seams came undone either.

There's a great article in Business Week, I think, about Wal-mart and the $2.97 gallon jar of Vlasic pickles. Gives you a real good perspective as to why they got as big as they did. The red diaper babies here, well, they'll have their head explode if they read it.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad you like Wal Mart so much F_W, I'm sure you'll have a chance to work for them sometime in the near future.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jams, that's it. At least I got the price, size, right. It's 2qt,1pt for $2.97 now.

Wal-mart is the closest store to the F_W compound. But I'll never have to work there. Unless I want to.

I made some good decisions in life,some bad, worked two jobs for 12 years. Made Critical Mass.

Gotta go, see you later.
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Jams
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread has reminded me of Kurt Vonnegut's first novel, Player Piano, which I read many years ago but impacted me greatly.


quote:

The novel depicts a technologically advanced, highly regulated society set in a future United States. While everyone is provided for, only an elite of technicians and managers has any real purpose, and eventually the protagonist, Paul Proteus, joins with those made useless by technology in a rebellion against the system. The title derives from the fact that the player piano, with its key-punched paper rolls displacing the pianist, is one of the earliest applications of automation.




From the strong middle-class nation we've been, we're becoming a two-tiered nation, those that have and those that don't. Limiting opportunities to those that can afford them does not seem the best course to strengthen our economy.
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_sj_
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Yes! I laugh my ass off at Wal Mart too when city's like Chicago and Livonia say "piss on you!"




That may be true, but to people who do not have jobs and have limited access to them such as inner city residents or miniorities they probably cry while you enjoy petty politics.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well....Chicago is not like Detroit, people there have lots better choices for work beside Wal Mart. Also lots better public transportation for getting to Wal Mart in Chicago if that's where they really want to work.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aren't Caucasians in Detroit's inner-city considered minorities?
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Miss_cleo
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Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wal-mart wanted to put a store here in Charelvoix, the people spoke and said NO. So no Wal-mart for us, doesnt matter to me, I never shopped at one anyway
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"Well....Chicago is not like Detroit, people there have lots better choices for work beside Wal Mart."

Then WHY would they get 15,000 applying for McJobs if they had a better option? Come on Rocky, you're proving my point. I expect better.

Mess_Cleo, have you had a Michael Moore sighting? He's pretty big, should be easy.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What does Michael Moore have to do with this discussion? It's always interesting when you guys divert the discussion to your personal bogeymen.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

15K people are what percentage of the Chicago Metro area population? Like .05%? I'm sure there are people that would prefer a Wal Mart Job to many other jobs, I've actually met people that work there and have many good things to say about their employer. I just resent that their philosophies are being used as the benchmark for the way all American business needs to do things. Namely they put other stores in the area they come to out of business putting the people that worked at those stores out of a job. Now would we say they applied at Wal Mart because they wanted to or because they had to? Or forcing me to shop there and buy their Chinese made crap because they put my favorite hardware store out of business. Do I shop there because I want to or because I happen to have had no choice (because of them) at the particular time I needed a weird sized wrench at 8 PM?
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"What does Michael Moore have to do with this discussion?"

Just wondering if he's seen around up there. I read he's registered to vote there and NYC. Typical demo voter fraud. (Chumming)

BUT, he is trying to de-unionize NYC. His writers had to join the Writers Guild to get screen credit for their work. That's worth big bucks in their trade. He tried to fire their ass when they joined the guild.. The guild stepped in and negotiated. Hypocrite. See, I can support unions, sometimes. But it helps when you work for someone that needs the good PR. Had MM been a conservative, the MSM would have had a beat-a-thon.

For people with few marketable skills, Wal-mart is a good job, compared to working somewhere else with the same skill set. Home Depot put the hardware store out of business. Wal-mart has a couple of aisles for that kind of stuff. Consumer Report said their paint was one of the best they tested. Wonder how that happened????

Wal-marts philosophy is efficieny. If their competitors don't do the same, there're toast. If the Big 3 had been serious about it, they wouldn't be in the trouble they're in at the moment.

Wal-mart is partly credited with keeping inflation down, the competitors can't raise prices like they usually do. I like that. I remember the rampant inflation in the 70' and early 80's and don't want to go back to that.

Like it or not, this is the future. Get used to it. Figure out how to make it work for you, don't depend on the Union Cavalry to save your ass. It can't.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think Wal Mart and their philosophies are as secure as you think. Didn't you hear about the big class action lawsuit they just lost? They got pinched for forcing their employees to work through break time. You lose one class action law suit and boy do the trial lawyers come out of the woodwork. They’re spending big monies to their corporate lawyers to protect the Sam Walton off balance benefiting the elite few way of life. I know this because my parents have a friend that had to take a job in their Bentonville legal department when K mart’s Legal Department here in Troy laid him off. So it's only a matter of time really that they will fall on the same sword they used to cut the heads off of the competition. Yes the cost for screwing people over when they could have played fair will down the road become their legacy costs, just like the big three whine about their legacy cost stemming from the poor baby's having to pay people fair wages and pensions.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I suppose that IT should also revert to obsolete programming practices just so that programmers who didn't bother to go with the flow and reeducate themselves might still find work.

Hell, the Detroit Three could also revert to human welding in order to please some DY posters.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points actually LY, I'm not anti technology like you think I may be. I've heard it said that's what makes Japan superior to the US is they don't advance a new technology until a way to replace the obsoleted job has been found. Lest the obsolote worker become a burden on the society. If we did that over here, you would not hear word one from me.
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The left wing and the union movement is full of the people who have been screwed over by Michael Moore. He's our asshole, like Ann Coulter is your asshole.

The Japanese are forward thinking people, Americans are not. That is the big difference.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They were stupid to not make sure the store managers made it a priority to get the state required breaks done. Especially when the time records are on a computer. They only had to look at Home Depot that had the same problem ten years ago. They got sued too.

And the womyn are after Wal-mart because they don't have half the managers jobs.

The US attorneys office in LA is looking at whether Wal-mart broke the law when they use their own trucks rather than certified hazardous material haulers to deliver merchandise. Hairspray and charcoal were among the hazardous products. Care to guess who started that?

This is the Goonion way of getting rid of the competion, lawsuit them out of existence. Can't beat them in the market. Somebody else will come along and do it better than Wal-mart, but I know this, it won't be with a union workforce.


Comrade, I imagine the hippy parents did a real good job on the class envy lessons. I had one Roosevelt demo and one late conversion to republican. IF you could get into the union, life was good. But I could see that was a dead end 30 years ago. I probably would have never made it thru the 81-82 bloodletting with low seniority. Working hard and getting a skill was the way.

You know Reuther didn't want the Big 4 to have pensions and such. He wanted an industry wide or better yet, the goobermint handling that. He'd seen all the small auto companies fail and bail on the pension. Hard to understand why the management didn't want to just send the pension fund to Washington and let them be on the hook. Maybe they were more afraid of the demos in congress passing laws that increased the pension even more than the UAW could extract. It would be interesting to know. Hornwrecker?
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56packman
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The small auto companies--the "little 5" (who hears about them anymore--that's how we got the term "big three") did not put up much of a stink at all in the 1930's when the unions wanted to organize them. Studebaker was practically afraid of their unionized work force, and granted them many pay raises to avoid strikes. Packard accepted the union as the new way of life and went on with thier business until they could no longer afford to be an independent manufacturer. Their purchase of Studebaker in 1954 was a noose around their neck finacially that hastened their demise. We all know what happened on the Rouge overpass with Ford, and the Flint GM stand-off. The guys that played dirty won.
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Jams
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A bit ironic:

{BEIJING Wal-Mart workers in China have set up unions at all 62 outlets that the world's biggest retailer operates here in what a senior Chinese trade union official described Thursday as a breakthrough for organized labor}

more:
http://www.iht.com/articles/20 06/10/12/business/unions.php
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The guys who played dirty won? The guys who were beaten silly by cops and Ford/GM goons won.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is an interesting argument. Did the independants die because they had to pay industry wages? Or because their products were not as innovative as the big three's? You look at Packard, I've read opinions that stated what finished them off was the decision to march into the 50s holding onto thier tired old L head straight eight engine. By the time they came out with their own OHV V8 in 55 it was too late to stop the march of customers towards GM showrooms who wanted the latest and greatest power pack cars. Packard was also late in bringing a hardtop out to compete with GMs.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Incidently, aside from my comments above I love the independant makes, I own two AMCs I am quite fond of. 56 packman, did you know about the '55 Packard 400 two door hardtop for sale behind the glass and trim shop at 10 mile and Coolidge? It looks solid, but will need some help. It is a gorgeous car, I wish I had the resources to take it on. Perhaps you can give it a home?
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56packman
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian--Didn't know about that one-I have a '56 400 two door hard top. The independents that died (Studebaker, Packard, Kaiser-Frazier, Willys-Overland car line) died because they could not realize the economies of scale that the very large big three companies could, they could not win in the annual styling change "forced obsolescence" game that the big three were embroiled in, and could not afford to keep up with the technological changes the big three companies were bringing throughout the 1950's.
No stand-alone single-line auto manufacturer survived the 1950's. The writing was on the wall for the independents before WWII, the rush of car sales in 1939-1941 (and the very brief 1942 model year) helped forestall the inevitable, as did the post WWII sellers market for new cars. After the 1950 model year it got rough. Had Nash president George Mason lived to see his merger of Packard, Hudson, Nash and Studebaker into American Motors (his original concept of that company) those nameplates may finally have achieved what they sorely lacked, the same multi-tiered body, chassis, engine and other component sharing that the big three enjoyed, and we might still have had those nameplates with us today. It certainly would have been different than the odd product AMC produced through much of its history. The independents did not die because they had to pay industry wages. They were caught as casualties in an all-out war between the big three, who were only worried about out-selling each other. The business model changed toward the mega-corporation multi-brand tiered product line ala' The General Motors of Alfred Sloan. Packard did hold on to its aged engine too long, and preferred to pay big dividends rather than innovate for too long.
There was a nationwide mood against the "little 5" in the 50's, where the water cooler talk of the day was "don't buy a _____________, they are going to be out of business soon, you won't be able to get service at a dealer, there won't be parts available--buy a ______________(big 3 brand). I think the big 3 are currently on the losing end of similar talk, where the advice is to go Asian. The big three aren't in immediate danger of going under as the little 5 losers did, but the power of word of mouth advice is still the same. Of course, getting treated as we have by the US brand dealership network feeds the water coller talk as well.
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56packman
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ORD-I was referring to the car manufacturers that survived to today. You state that the people beat up by the goons won. That is ultimately true, The UAW did get in all of those plants and enjoy a good run for the auto worker. They also grew and benefited from a somewhat rare historical fluke, a period where the US was the only industrially developed nation that came out of WWII with no loss to its manufacturing ability (on the contrary, the war brought huge advancements in manufacturing for the US). All of industrial Europe and Asia was in rubble, thanks to our ability to produce war goods at an astounding volume.
After the end of WWII the unionized work force in America had big business over a barrel. Much corruption by union management began in this era, and by the early 1970's the decline in power of the unions had begun. To everything there is a season. The great society of Rome ruled, then collapsed of its own weight. The British empire became a shadow of its former self. The people assembling Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans are happy that factory was built in that corn field near their community, and they find the wage they are paid to be good, without the help of a corrupt labor organization.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

History does show that empires are built and collapse all the time, this is contrary to what every kid grows up thinking that he will do at least as good or better hopefully then his dad did. And it has nothing to do with one generation being less motivated then the other one, all too often it is the outside forces you speak of. The planet only has limited resources to share, and I believe the recessions and depressions have some effect on birth rates. I guess they are better then the horrible diseases, which accomplished the same thing, which we for the most part were wiped out by 20th century medical advances. And of course corruption exists on both sides of the table. Just the companies have better lobbyists, so their self-serving actions have been legalized. Except when looking at Hewlett Packard, they got smacked down but good for thinking this was George Orwell's 1984 we lived in.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 228
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was the Detroit bus drivers Union that caused the loss of my SMART bus service in Livonia because the drivers parked thier buses at Wonderland and walked around while many people including myself stood and waited for hours for a late bus that never showed up.

We froze our ASSES off and the voters in Livonia got very pissed off and voted NO


This is discrimination which the Transportation Riders United and M.O.S.E.S. refuse to fight.

Because they want federal grants for rail.

These groups know the passage of the SMART tax is only a charity cause.

So, lets publicly debate the next transit tax increase.

I'm game to this.

Are any DY'ers game to this????

OR, maybe more tax increases is the answer????

comments please.
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Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 261
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why not debate DeVos and Granholm? Trainman for governor!

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