Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1341 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 4:32 pm: | |
I found this on a car forum and am posting this because given the industries, this is a very detroit related article, and a good one at that, in many ways (the english is pretty strange in places though)
quote:DETROIT (ResourceInvestor.com) -- In spite of the concern about General Motors [NYSE:GM] recently, caused by the very public breakdown in the Kirk Kerkorian-sponsored "alliance negotiations" with Renault-Nissan, and the potential for a brutal proxy battle over it down the road, I am beginning to think GM is undervalued. One of the things that the Wall Street analysts, the investment community and most small investors have not taken into account is that GM appears to be leading a "sea change" in strategic resource recovery and conservation that began near the end of 2004. This program has been kept very quiet, quite uncharacteristic for the American OEM auto industry, which seems to issue press releases on every issue, big or small, in an attempt to cultivate favour with the media. Resource Investor, however, knows this is about to change. Not because there will be some big announcement made by the GM Chairman, Rick Wagoner, but because some of the changes now in process have the potential to alter the very fabric of the American scrap industry and its market. RI learned some details of GM?s new revenue generating program by interviewing individuals at GM, a number of scrap dealers and a steel mill in order to bring you the following first look. In November, 2004, A polymath at GM was appointed to a job, which is in all American Fortune 500 corporations, looked upon as a dead end for a young person or a final resting place for a good soldier to safeguard him into retirement, scrap management. As one GM CEO after another has said of the job since the beginning of time. ?We make cars not scrap. It?s just a cost to be minimized however and whenever possible.? This time however GM purchasing chose a Professional Fellow, an unclassified rating the corporation bestows upon exceptional people who don?t fit any one mold, to oversee global scrap management. The result has been to change dramatically the way in which GM handles scrap and to uncover, for the company, a fount of revenue that was in plain sight but overlooked even by most scrap dealers, the value of the alloying metals (everyone of them a strategic metal) content contained in industrial ferrous, i.e., majority iron or steel, metal scrap. For now the program is focused on stamping, cutting, piercing, extrusion and forging dies, typically of many tons weight. These had been traditionally sold for less than the cost of transporting them away, but have now been dramatically re-priced upward by GM to reflect the market reality that their embedded alloy metal values have increased in price by factors between 5 and 10, that?s 500% to a 1000 percent since 2001. Scrap dealers used to self congratulating gestures for being able to keep secrets among themselves and mostly afraid of the light of day shining on their transactions were sceptical and even now only a few have seen the light, but GM doesn?t care. If scrap dealers fail to meet the new much higher minimum bid prices set by GM then the material can be shipped directly to the end user steel mills and foundries by GM and physical swaps and/or deductions against new material prices can be taken by GM for its own account. GM has discovered and is mining a source of strategic metals equal to the output of many new mines and smelters and it is located entirely in the U.S. even though some of the metals recovered are not normally found in the U.S. Mining this source requires neither the using of digging tools to pierce a pristine plot of soil nor any furnaces to belch additional sulphur dioxide into the air. GM is to be applauded for the development of the greenest ever strategic metal mine. This has occurred with no additional costs to GM at all!.
rest of it here: http://www.resourceinvestor.co m/pebble.asp?relid=24563 (Message edited by gravitymachine on October 10, 2006) |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 2922 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 4:47 pm: | |
It almost sounds as though someone translated this from another language, verbatim. (Babelfish?) |
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1342 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 4:52 pm: | |
yeah it does, a "polymath"? lol |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 309 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 5:00 pm: | |
I think GM generates very little scrap. It doesn't manufacture very much; the manufacturing process generates scrap. GM assembles (no scrap there), and outsources virtually all manufacturing (Delphi et al.) Besides, GM has been very scrap conscious for years. And, it monitors the providors scrap programs to make sure it gets the best deal on parts. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 3083 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 6:18 pm: | |
So its GM who's behind all the copper theft! Billiant. |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2221 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 7:23 pm: | |
Sorry 3wc you're very wrong. All the US auto companies stamp all their own body sheet metal and forge/cast all their major engine parts. This is the source of thier differntiation from thier competitors. And if you reread the article initial focus is not about the scrap off of parts production. It's about the spent tools and dies used to create the parts. Dies from the stamping operation are huge. |
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1343 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 10:21 pm: | |
I can only imagine how many old dies are laying around this city... |
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 681 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 8:46 am: | |
Yes-- every time a model changes and a stamping shape changes, the automakers must make new dies, and that doesn't include the replacements that must be made during the model year if the dies wear out. GM's Flint Tool & Die works by carving styrofoam into the shape that the die is made, then sends it out to a GM foundry like the one in Defiance, OH. It produces a rough casting that is sent back to Flint and finished. |
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5
Post Number: 380 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:41 am: | |
It's about time! I know people who make millions buying scrap from the big three (and their parts divisions) and then sell it on the open market. I'm not sure how the process works, but it seems quite obvious that the people handling the sales for GM were not on a commision basis. I've heard many stories of items being sold for 1/3 their value or even less. When you're talking about truck loads of scrap parts it adds up. |
Llyn
Member Username: Llyn
Post Number: 1653 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 12:52 pm: | |
Still, I think the article is overblown. Are we talking about a billion in savings from tooling scrap? Half a billion? I doubt either of those numbers. It's not likely that the numbers are big enough to really impact the value of the company significantly. I think it's just "Resource Investor" trying to earn their keep any way possible. |
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 682 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 6:00 pm: | |
It's not just tooling scrap; it's also scrap from presses where hoods, doors etc. are stamped out. Scrap also comes from casting engine blocks. |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 311 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 6:00 pm: | |
Ndavies: You're correct. I checked. While the car companies are outsourcing a lot of stamping they still do the bulk of it in-house. Remember the condemnation process re: the DCX Jefferson Ave. assembly plant a few years ago? The 3 alleged mafia guys loaded up their warehouses in the area w/ obsolete presses, tool, dies etc and forced the City to pay them $50 million. CAY was Mayor, and maybe got a taste. Alan Ackerman made a $15,000,000 legal fee on the deal on top of the condemnation award, also paid by the City. The city sold all the junk they bought for cents per pound. I know it's a different market now, but not that much higher. I'm told the cost of torch cutting and dismantling the millions of tons of that stuff which used to be back of the Lynch Road DCX plant (visible from I-75 I believe) would exceed its scrap value. Anyway, hope they make a lot of money. |
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren
Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:57 am: | |
Quote: "GM's Flint Tool & Die works by carving styrofoam into the shape that the die is made, then sends it out to a GM foundry like the one in Defiance, OH. It produces a rough casting that is sent back to Flint and finished." When did they start doing this? Dad was a wood model maker at Fisher Body, they got automated out of existence when GM went directly to a CAD program to carve the die with a CNC mill. I wouldn't think a cast die would be as stable and strong as one carved from a billet. |
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 347 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 8:36 pm: | |
All production stamping dies are made with large castings, which are then machined to make the desired surfaces which shape the stamped panels. These days, those die surfaces are machined using the CAD/CNC methods. In the olden days (when I was a wet-behind-the-ears engineer at Fisher Body), those die surfaces were machined using a milling machine which traced the desired surface from a pattern which was made from the wood model. The die castings are made by pouring the molten metal into forms filled with foundry sand that surrounds a styrofoam model which provides the needed shape of the casting. The molten metal vaporizes the styrofoam and hardens into the shape maintained by the surrounding foundry sand. This is also called the "lost foam" casting method and it results in castings that are closer to the desired final surface and which then need less material to be removed by the CNC machining. These castings have hollowed-out internal areas along with strategically placed ribbing. This type of die design provides the necessary rigidity and they are lighter in weight than a die machined from a solid billet. |
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren
Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:02 am: | |
I went to an open house at the Tech Center about 40 years ago, got to see where the old man worked. All the wood models had tarps over them, they were working on the '71's and didn't want to spill the beans. Saw a TV program about metal working and they showed the wood model bolted to the wall and the tracer attachment going back and forth. Trivia, '71 Vega engine was one of the first uses of the lost foam casting. They had an open deck block, which was really strange looking compared to everything else. I'll let everyone else guess what an open deck was. |
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 688 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:23 am: | |
Fortress_warren: They've been doing that for a while now. Go to http://www.mlive.com/fljournal /archives/ A June 2, 2002 article explains all about how Flint Tool & Die works. Unit information page: http://www.gmdynamic.com/compa ny/gmability/environment/plant s/facility_db/facility_summary .php?fID=147 |