Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior
Post Number: 3044 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:24 pm: | |
Dear Technicians and Friends: On October 25, 2006, University of Detroit Mercy, School of Architecture and the Cass Tech Development and Preservation Society will be presenting work developed during the Spring 2005 semester with Prof. Constance Bodurow's undergraduate studio devoted to recasting the Historic Cass Tech as a catalytic adaptive reuse project. Don't miss an exciting opportunity to ask questions and dialogue about the potential for redeveloping historic Cass into a mixed-use facility using the arts and residential uses as an anchor in the lower Cass Corridor. This is a first step to engage the Cass Tech community for feedback and support before working with Detroit Public Schools to develop an RFP (Request for Proposals) process in 2007. Feel free to forward this invitation! ************ ********* ******* What: Presentation for the Cass Tech Community of ideas generated for historic Cass Tech (UDM Design Studio) When: Wednesday, October 25. Time: 6 p.m. Where: University of Detroit-Mercy, School of Architecture. McNichols Campus. Entrance off Livernois. Warren Loranger Hall. Exhibit Center. Link: http://architecture .udmercy. edu/index. htm Please RSVP (light refreshments) : Francis Grunow detourdetroit@ameritech.net 313.717.4298 __._,_.___ |
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4421 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:48 pm: | |
Wonderful. Good luck with the process. Let's not lose this relic to ruins or to demolition. jjaba, CT Grad. 1959 |
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 278 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 2:07 pm: | |
Jjaba is going to get a loft where his printing class was! |
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 833 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 3:55 pm: | |
Every morning I drive by and the worst smells come from Cass tech. I hope it isn't their school lunch |
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 256 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:55 pm: | |
lol, yeah, that would be funny for someone to live where they used to go to school! One thing that I think is important is for there to be something in the building that high schoolers would like. Good luck to the building! |
Leoqueen
Member Username: Leoqueen
Post Number: 1420 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:42 pm: | |
I pray for the old building every morning when we pass it as we drive our daughter to school in the new Cass Tech I went to parent/teacher conference last week, and wondered how she could ever have memories like I have.....that new structure is so character-less |
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 228 Registered: 04-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 1:37 am: | |
I'll agree that the old structure has a TON of character. But to say the new school is characterless? The new Cass Tech has more character than 90% of the schools put up between 1950-1990. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 699 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:06 am: | |
If by character you mean fuel-hogging glass and steel institutional architecture. |
Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 948 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:14 am: | |
ha ha. yes, because natural light is so bad for learning! they proved that with those "bunker" schools of the seventies. and triple paned, insulated glass is so inefficient! and it's so bad to make a school look like an institute! (not that i agree with the design assertation.) |
Leoqueen
Member Username: Leoqueen
Post Number: 1421 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:40 am: | |
This looks like any number of cinder block, glass, and mesh buildings that are erected. I DO like the addition of real works of art that are dispersed around the school.......they are a place for the eye to rest after all of that starkness |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 700 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 12:58 pm: | |
Rsa: New Cass Tech sure looks like a high-energy-use building to me. Those glass curtain walls may make the building look space-age, but they can't be as good an insulator as other materials, and they must certainly fill the place with hot sunlight in the summer. It would seem this goes against the trend in public architecture. Steel-and-glass is a dying fad in public buildings, which are lately leaning toward "green" building ideas that include sod roofs, natural airflow, the use of geothermal heat, etc. I don't know how serious your interest in this topic is, but it may interest you to know that architecture that "wastes energy" is a subject of some debate in that community. I particularly enjoyed a comment on an Indian architecture forum that these kinds of buildings are "a vulgar display of wealth and egotistical consumerism as though cultural difference has no meaning." The reason that quote pricked up my ears so much is that our cultural heritage here, in the form of all these wonderful old buildings, represents an irreplacable value, one that we fail to capitalize upon year after year. Who would think of tearing down a city institution, like, say City Hall in New York, to build an "up-to-date" structure? Yet, that is what we do here again and again. Victor Hugo once hinted that architecture the literature of the illiterate. Our buildings are there for all to read, to cherish their passages, or like a palimpsest, something overwritten but with the original markings still faintly visible. When we reuse those buildings, we enrich our common culture. If that is true, the message of these steel-and-glass buildings to me is that our local heritage is not important. That our battered city will find its salvation not in history, but in one-size-fits-all institutional architecture, buildings with dimensions dictated by the egos of architects, the avarice of contractors, the preening self-importance of administrators, and the lavish enabling of architecture critics, all with the visual sensibility of a banker or a bond insurer. Who's left to pay the bills? You and me, my friend, you and me. (Message edited by detroitnerd on October 20, 2006) |
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4424 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 1:54 pm: | |
Detroitnerd is on top of his game. Green bldgs. are preferred but this was built before Billy Ford and his Rouge pile were well known. As for jjaba, yes, sign him up for room 614 in the Cass Tech. of his 1950s. Going to bed with the smells of printer's ink, cut paper, and old lead type would be so sweet. He'd have a view of the World Series and the Detroit HS of Commerce. Never mind the smell today. It's the stench of the mistkaes going on all damn day and night in the house wiring program. They smoked their shorts, as they say. Better there than in your new house in Livonia. jjaba, CT Classe' of 1959, on the Grand River Electric bus. |
Wirt Member Username: Wirt
Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 2:06 pm: | |
..check out the new historical plaques mounted on the south face of the new Cass Tech. They deal with some of the 'memories' and 'character' of the 1917/1922 building. Character is something that takes time. In time, hopefully Leoqueen will come to appreciate all of the positives of the new building. All of the natural light illuminating the 'real' works of art must be viewed as a positive. I'm sure she would also appreciate paintings displayed in prominent locations integrated with the new contemporary architecture rather simply littered in back corridors. Does abstract art have the same character as older historical styles of art? ...from an energy standpoint, let's not forget that the older building was far from energy efficient. I believe the mechanical system alone would cost the taxpayers $1 million a year premium over the new building. The new glass and steel buildings can be deceiving. They are more efficient than you would think. ..'one size fits all institutional architecture' ..'salvation'? I didn't understand that one |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 701 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 2:25 pm: | |
Wirt: Edited my point. Perhaps it's clearer now. I'm sure the art in the new building is great. Any chance it's from Sherry Washington Gallery? The efficiency point is not to be belabored. Nobody would say that Chartes cathedral is a waste to heat, although it must cost a fortune to keep warm. It was built in another time, when climate-control standards were different. And grafting new HVAC systems onto old buildings is another part of the problem. But glass-curtain walls are largely a thing of the past, especially in public architecture. And, to many, me included, they are a swaggering, arrogant "statement" -- one that leaves the institution occupying it to pay for it for years to come. Is sunlight good? Sure it is. But if a little sunlight is good, total, uncontrolled sunlight must be great, right? Not so. Shortly after they started building glass-curtain office towers, they started using floor-to-curtain shades in them, realizing they had no control over where the light fell during the day. Anybody who has toiled on a summer day in these convection chambers knows what I'm talking about. Being unable to read your monitor because of glare, being woozy and tired, feeling like a cat caught in the sun. Productivity plummets. Sweat beads on you. And there are no windows to open. It's terrible. But it sure looks "neat" on the outside. |
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect
Post Number: 252 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:02 pm: | |
I think progressive architecture, like avant garde art may challenge the user. And also like other art forms, like painting, it may take a while to grow on you. The new Cass Tech, like the remodeled Renaissance Center, Comerica Park and Ford Field represent a very important change in the way that contemporary architecture is done in Detroit. The old new Detroit architecture was about fear and fortification, solid impenetrable walls designed to keep people and profits “safe”. (IE the original Renn Cenn). Cass Tech and the buildings mentioned above seek to open themselves up to the city and consequently the city becomes part of the interior experience of the building. Both the building and the city become validated. That is what a good urban building should do. On my tour of the new Cass I was taken back by the views out to the city. I think it would really help teach the students about what is at stake here. The amounts of windows in the classrooms are magnificent, and from up in the Media Center; Detroit looks GOOD! I counted almost thirty church steeples, a real eye-opener. The nostalgia associated with the old Cass is very similar to the nostalgia my grandparents had for “The little Red Schoolhouse”. The old Cass was a building for the last century; the new Cass is one for this one. Go ahead turn the building into a retirement village for all of those with fondest of memories of high school, if you can. The same factors that made that building impractical for remodeling as a new school may also work against it as housing. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 702 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:05 pm: | |
So we cheer when a building is not a stockade? Way to set that bar sky high. |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 127 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:18 pm: | |
DetroitNerd: stop your whining. *quote "the message of these steel-and-glass buildings to me is that our local heritage is not important" Wow, are you sure your not one of the "illiterate" when it comes to architecture? Steel and glass structures aren't going anywhere and a building is not only considered "green" if it has a green roof. There are many factors that define a green buildings status. I love old buildings just as much as anyone and they should certainly be preserved at all costs but in 2006 we should also be building structures that define our current age and contribute to a progressive, forward looking culture which respects the past and builds with an eye towards the future. Do you not think that architects, administrators, contractors, and critics weren't stroking their egos when they built the "lavish" Fox theatre or the Guardian Building? Give me a break! Here are some building details about the New Cass Tech High School http://www.tyjt.com/cass.htm "Mechanical Design: The mechanical system of the project included the design of five 258 ton chillers for cooling, and two 200hp fire tube boilers for winter heating, and three 50hp boilers for summer heating. Reduction in energy consumption was enhanced through variable speed drives on all fans and pumps. The HVAC energy efficiency was achieved by incorporating full economized control utilizing outdoor air for cooling during mild weather for the fourteen air handling units Electrical Design: The lighting design offered optimal comfort and maximum energy savings. The light level-based control for the exterior lighting ensured safety and security when required. All classrooms are provided with pendent indirect lighting fixtures with elegant profile and precise wide spread optics, which minimize the shadows. Electrical power panels, transformers, and equipment were selected in an integrated switchboard to provide space savings in the electrical rooms on each floor. Energy efficiencies in the electrical systems were achieved through the lighting systems design. This design provided day lighting energy savings, occupancy sensors and photocell sensors with dimming controls to continuously control the lighting levels for both the exterior and interior lights." Plus: http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/b u/?id=243501 "This building was LEED certified by the U.S. Green Building Council" DetroitNerd: I guess your right the New Cass Tech is a terribly inefficient structure. (Message edited by stecks77 on October 20, 2006) |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 128 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:26 pm: | |
DetroitNerd: I can't say for sure what types of windows they installed at Cass Tech but I'm sure the architects choice took energy costs and savings into consideration. This is a nice link that maybe you should take a look at before you spout off about how all large expanses of glass are inefficient. http://www.energystar.gov/inde x.cfm?c=windows_doors.pr_anat_ window |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 703 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:59 pm: | |
Stecks: When somebody attempts to dismiss my point of view by calling it "whining," I take it that the person feels not a little threatened by it. If you actually read what I've posted, though, I don't think you should feel scared or threatened at all. I said I doubt that a building that's glass-and-steel is energy-efficient. That's a fair proposition, isn't it? I've worked in such buildings, and I know from my own experience that the conceit has caused me to suffer. I've described my own experiences trying to work in sun-flooded rooms, growing drowsy, as the room superheats in minutes. You see, this assertion is based on empirical evidence. You have provided some links and some other things to show, as another posted suggested, that glass-and-steel have improved over the years, and that experts have asserted that the new building is more energy-efficient than one might think. Thanks for the effort. I am encouraged by what I see. But all of this information suggests that the technology is used to mitigate the costs of the building's conceit: The big, glass building won't use as much energy as a big, glass building should. But to call such a building efficient? No, I reserve my right to doubt. Of course contractors, builders, bankers (the exact sort of people you'd find on the board of the U.S. Green Building Council, I'm sure) will be eager to say it's "green" and "efficient." May I still reserve my right to doubt them, too? With your kind permission, of course. |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 129 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:28 pm: | |
DetroitNerd: I don't feel threatened at all? And you have my permission. Keep doubting all you want and live in a darkened masoleum for all I care. Maybe they will have condo basement units available for you in the old Cass Tech? Nice and cool in the summer and you can avoid the light. I just think before you call something "fuel-hogging glass and steel institutional architecture" you should do your homework or become a little bit more informed. When modern architects first started building large glass enclosed structures energy costs were not even close to what they are now? There's no comparison. Obviously when energy prices rose over the years these types of structures became cost prohibitive, but what's wrong with engineers and architects designing better systems that save money and still allow us to enjoy these types of structures? (Message edited by stecks77 on October 20, 2006) |
Wirt Member Username: Wirt
Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:33 pm: | |
The new Cass Tech has several energy efficient features but it could be much more efficient.... see following link: http://www.aia.org/aiarchitect /thisweek06/1020/1020d_pw_hear st.cfm Since the thread is all about the old building,,,, maybe the shell of the old building could be retained and let the new (unusual looking)energy efficient tower rise up out of the old building..... |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 130 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:40 pm: | |
Its no use Wirt. The new Hearst Tower is a fantastic building but it doesn't matter how many energy efficient devices are placed on it, its still inefficient according to DetroitNerd. Brick, stone, and wood is the only way to go. The New Cass Tech could certainly be more efficient, its not perfect, but its a long way away from the Old Cass Tech. |
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect
Post Number: 253 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:43 pm: | |
Hey, what's the deal man. That building is ALL freakin glass. It's supposed to be energy efficient? No way, gotta be a trick or sumthin. |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 131 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:44 pm: | |
Its magic or One big conceit. (Message edited by stecks77 on October 20, 2006) |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 704 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:50 pm: | |
Yes, I called it "fuel-hogging glass-and-steel institutional architecture". That was an off-the-cuff comment, but it's based on reality. I look at that building and think of all the extra costs associated with cooling it in the summer and heating it in the winter. And though the hog may not be as big, I remain unconvinced that this isn't the case. As for "enjoying" these "wonderful" structures, in rhetoric, it's called "begging the question." That means that you have not tried to prove that these structures are wonderful, that they are enjoyable. (Sumotect did a fair job of making his case, for example.) You have treated it as though it is settled. And it isn't. It's a matter of opinion, not prejudice. I also notice you assume I'm in love with the Old Cass Tech. That's another rhetorical boo-boo called the Straw Man. You assign me an argument that is weak and then make grand, theatrical gestures as you rip it apart, to make you look as though you're a great debater. Only terrible debaters do that. But, looking at your posts, I'm going to guess that you're a young person yet and, as such, have a bit to learn about rhetoric, history and aesthetics. I'm sure you'll get there, kiddo. Also, I would argue that Sumotect's assertion that this is "nostalgia" is off-base. What I'm talking about is the way buildings express a continuity, an continuous sense of identity. That doesn't mean that we don't build anything new, but that we understand that cities are more than a collection of disposable structures. Detroit is plagued by a "model-year" mentality, that everything that is new is automatically better than whatever came before it. That everything old is inferior and obsolete. That everything new is "wonderful" and worthy of "enjoyment". Architecture, more so than any other art, is capable of giving us the sense of living within history. That's what I'm talking about, Sumo. |
Sumotect Member Username: Sumotect
Post Number: 254 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:04 pm: | |
I don’t share the sense of optimism that people have about re-cycling Old Cass Tech. It could be cool, but I don’t think the task is doable within the cost constraints that commercial development appears to be driven on. I would be like to be proven wrong. The big problem I have with Nerd, is the thought that New Cass tech is an irresponsible energy waster because it has what appears to be, too much glass. I contend that it is not. It is a modern high tech building and a very credible piece of architecture. It is what the kids deserve, and we all are better for it. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 705 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:11 pm: | |
Thanks for the civility, Sumo. I would like to believe you, but every ounce of my experience tells me that glass buildings trap heat in the summer and lose heat in the winter. (But, then again, people used to look at heavier-than-air transport and say it would never fly.) For the sake of all kids struggling in Detroit schools, I sure hope this isn't a white elephant that's going to suck down the fuel while kids sell M&Ms to buy their freakin' books. |
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77
Post Number: 132 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:18 pm: | |
DetroitNerd: Next time don't be so off the cuff and then try to validate your ignorant opinion a little better after the fact. Spare me the lecture. I went through plenty of them while recieving my MFA in SoCal. I guess I don't know anything about aesthetics but you know plenty about making assumptions. I am young and proud of it. Unlike yourself, i don't believe a persons age invalidates there opinion because they don't have the same life experience or knowledge of rhetoric! Ridiculous. Stay prejudice and be happy. I never said new was better. Your the one claiming new is bad. I love the old but see no problem with building our current cultural history in the present with new technology Trying to explain to you how wonderful these structures are is obviously a waste of time. Keep on living in your reality, stay out of touch, and be skeptical of the future. More power to you. See you on Monday! |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 706 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:50 pm: | |
Welcome to Straw Man Central. "Unlike yourself, i don't believe a persons age invalidates there opinion" Er, no comment. |
Rsa Member Username: Rsa
Post Number: 949 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 6:33 pm: | |
wow, that was exhausting to read. detroitnerd; you can doubt all you want, but a great amount of research went into that building to make it a functional, effiecient building. yes, sun shines into it in the hot summer, but sun also shines into it in the cold winter as well. terrific advancements have been made in materials, research, observation of how the environment reacts in a building, etc. i could start listing them all, but it took me 2 years of my schooling and continuing education now to learn much of it. so, since it's friday night i'll just have to offer you materials on these things and wish you a good weekend. another thing that i noticed you brought up that i'd like to touch on very quick: quote:the message of these steel-and-glass buildings to me is that our local heritage is not important. That our battered city will find its salvation not in history, but in one-size-fits-all institutional architecture, buildings with dimensions dictated by the egos of architects, the avarice of contractors, the preening self-importance of administrators, and the lavish enabling of architecture critics, all with the visual sensibility of a banker or a bond insurer.
now, something that i think you're overlooking here is that all of these buildings that are now so "historical" were built contrary to your statement. detroit used to be extremely innovative in architecture. especially in the early-mid century. the saarinen's, yamasaki, etc. etc. all worked, taught, practiced, and/or learned here. so by not building to historical themes they are, in fact, embracing the history and spirit of the people of the city. i'd touch on some other points (a few of which are quite insulting to architects, builders, engineers, etc.) but-as i said-it's friday. go tigers! but i will leave you with a quote of my own: "brevity is the soul of wit." shakespeare -RSA (RockStArchitect) |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1860 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:40 pm: | |
Regarding Old Cass Tech, I have to agree with Sumotect when he wrote, "The same factors that made that building impractical for remodeling as a new school may also work against it as new housing." Can this HUGE building be converted into residential lofts at a resonable cost? Isn't Old Cass about the size of the Book Cadillac and therefore cost about the same to be retrofitted into housing? I understand the sentiment in wanting to save the Old Cass Tech, but wouldn't that land be better used for what it originally was going to be used for: an athletic field with softball diamonds for the new school and the school district? Better yet, why don't they use the land to build a football field that has the right dimentions and tear down the football field that they can't use because it was shoe-horned into a space that wasn't big enough? I think that would be a worthy compromise for tearing down the Old Cass Tech. |
Urbanvaquero Member Username: Urbanvaquero
Post Number: 332 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 12:47 am: | |
I wonder if folks were complaining when the old Cass Tech was built and the old high school at Grand River and Second Avenue was torn down to make way for I-75. I wonder if they thought the new school was unsexy. I'll tell ya, if the new Cass Tech was flesh and blood, and was just my type, I'd sleep with it. I look at it every morning and the only thing I hate about it is that it obstructed my view of Corktown, Ste Anne's, the MCS, Tiger Stadium, and the Ambassador Bridge. But view-elimination aside, the new building is one hot mama from my front window. Of course if one looks at it at the pedestrian level, especially the windowless north-end of it on Ledyard, it looks just like a prison. But those windows on the seventh floor do it for me. --Brenda |
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 4429 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 1:46 pm: | |
Detroit is so far behind in 21st century buildings that this Cass Tech is a pleasure. Where else in Detroit do you get a 95 yard football field with not enough runout room on the sidelines? Remember, Cass Tech never had a home field advantage. No home field. It is a nice new bldg. set in a ruins of Detroit, from which all students see to and from school. Let them grow up in a new bldg. jjaba, CT Classe' of '59; on the Grand River Feeder bus. |
|