Rotation_slim Member Username: Rotation_slim
Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:23 pm: | |
A buddy of mine works at a TV station (I forget-4 or 7) and he told me about a story they did on a group of hourly workers at a Ford plant who were leaving the plant and hitting a bar for hours at a time while on the clock. There is undercover video of them drinking away when they should be on the line. Not sure if the story has actually aired yet, I don't watch much TV, I think it has because the plant has already changed how it monitors employees, so I think Ford has seen the story. Anyway my question is this.. do you think Ford's problems lay at the feed of the well-paid executives, or are they being destroyed by well paid hourly workers who are abusing the system. Obviously there are good execs, and good hourly workers, but there are plenty in both job classifications. Who do you think is more at fault? In this case obviously workers sneaking out to get drunk falls on them, but shouldn't management have better monitoring systems in place, don't they share some of the blame? |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 229 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:45 pm: | |
If someone has a line job the line could not go on if he where at the bar, the cars would be going passed his station and not getting the parts he was supposed to add, causing a no build for the downstream stations. Now there are skilled trades people, these are the ones that are there to fix the line or machines as they break down. It's these skilled trades people you hear about goofing off on the clock when an observer walks through an assembly plant and does not know how a plant works but assumes they do, much like the reporter who created that news story you talk about. If the machines are all working fine, what's wrong with the skilled trades people being out at a restaurant near the plant as long as they are close enough to be summoned back to do their job when needed fast? After all, if you see your local fireman at a Dairy Queen near the Fire Station, does that piss everybody off? If they were at bar getting drunk on company time, they deserve to get fired and some one else who will take the job more seriously can be promoted from the assembly line. But how do we know they weren't drinking non-alchoholic beverages at the bar while having a lunch break? |
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 861 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:49 pm: | |
"If the machines are all working fine, what's wrong with the skilled trades people being out at a restaurant near the plant as long as they are close enough to be summoned back to do their job when needed fast?" because they are being paid to be in the building and I am sure they have lunches and breaks to go to hang out and eat etc... They don't have it like that. Firemen work 24hrs or more on the clock, that's a different story. (Message edited by viziondetroit on October 26, 2006) |
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 152 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:51 pm: | |
I'm sure the union apologists will come out of the woodword on this one. |
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 862 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:52 pm: | |
^ right lol Paging Miss Cleo... |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 230 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:56 pm: | |
Fine, we'll instruct all firemen and skilled trades people to stay in the plant and the fire station because it is too upsetting to clueless people. |
Bussey Member Username: Bussey
Post Number: 288 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 4:07 pm: | |
but why are they paying these guys to do nothing? |
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 615 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 4:12 pm: | |
I heard from a well-placed source that Bill Ford Jr. rarely put in a full day in the office. He was not exactly a driven executive. I guess he was, however, making a good deal more $$$ and the liveliehood of thousands rested on his leadership. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 711 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 4:15 pm: | |
I don't know what this report will reveal, but I do know about line troubleshooters: Those guys are like insurance, whenever the line is humming, they're paid to be on call. Whenever the line stops, they bust their asses fixing it. Troubleshooting a line is the sort of thing that you can't do with a textbook. It takes a working knowledge of what machinery is there, a mechanical mind, inventive thinking. These guys are magicians. And once a factory gets a good team of them, it's willing to do a lot to hold onto them. I know a guy who does that job at a plant and his team, like firemen, spends a lot of its time cooking in a special kitchen area. They make great food when things are good, but he tells me every once in a while they burn the pot roast when work takes them away. Interesting though: Is this the same board where people routinely defend compensating executives with lavish pay, vacation time, stock options, golden parachutes, etc., on the basis that their talents deserve that compensation, that they would be snapped up elsewhere unless companies shelled out that kind of money? What the freak? Can't these guys go and have some ribs down the street while they're on call? |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 233 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 4:16 pm: | |
In addition to being on call they will perform preventative maintenance on Machines. Typically the PM gets done when the line workers are on break. So the once again the well meaning casual observer notices that the plant goes to lunch at 12, what are these guys doing out of the plant at 2? Well that's the skilled trades guy’s lunch time because at 12 he was working on something to make sure it would not break and shut the line down. If management were to tie them up with other tasks, say emptying the wastebaskets in the office they would be unavailable when needed, or have to leave the busy work task unfinished if a machine breaks down for someone else to finish. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 4006 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 4:20 pm: | |
A lot of blame to be spread around. Why did the Auto companies have to develop policies regarding accepting drinks, dinners, lunches, and gifts by suppliers to executives? Why are engineer's concerns regarding components ignored, resulting in recalls? Why does marketing concern itself with big-profit vehicles it produces, rather than what the market will desire and need? Is there blame on both side? Hell, yes! But an anecdote about laborers drinking will not help fix an industry that needs to remake itself. |
Patrick Member Username: Patrick
Post Number: 3637 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 7:00 pm: | |
Few weeks ago SH cops pulled over a dude at the plant at 15/van Dyke for a broken tail light. Turns out he has drugs on him and makes a break into the plant. Some douche security guard tries to stop the cops. The cops mace his ass and charge him with obstruction of justice. Turns out he was in on it too. My dad works at DCX and has to go to various plants a lot. He sees a lot of shit, but the UAW turns a blind eye for the most part. Drugs and drink are very popular. Sure, you can say that about every industry, but this one especially. |
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 148 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 7:22 pm: | |
My job takes me to various assembly plants, mostly DCX. Last year while visiting a plant in SE Michigan, I kept smelling incense. I asked one of the people on the line that I had gotten to know what the smell was. She explained to me that some of the hi-lo drivers smoke pot while they are working and they burn the incense to cover the smell. I thought she was joking so she called over a co-worker who told me the same thing. I asked why they don't get fired. She laughed and told me that if they get caught, they get time off, usually 60 days, for counseling at nearly their full pay. Then they return to work. This kind of crap really pisses me off. This is what gives the UAW a bad name. There are plenty of hard working people in these plants, but this kind of behavior shouldn't be tolerated. I'm for mandatory drug/alcohol testing and if you are using while on the job, you are gone, no questions asked. |
Gargoyle Member Username: Gargoyle
Post Number: 34 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 7:47 pm: | |
Medical treatment for substance abuse was negotiated by the UAW because we're supposed to recognize drug and alcohol addictions as diseases. Workers caught under the influence are disciplined but cannot be summarily fired if they seek treatment. Repeat infractions incur more severe discipline and will eventually cost the employee his/her job. Are there employees who abuse this privilege? Absolutely. Does that mean that everyone should be automatically fired for alcohol or drug abuse? Good question. I certainly would have been happy to NEVER hear from good ol' Rush again after his narco bust. But where do we draw the line? Who decides which person deserves a break? Lots of variables here. |
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 469 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 7:53 pm: | |
Party on your own time. I say work, or be fired. |
Citylover Member Username: Citylover
Post Number: 1854 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 7:54 pm: | |
If I had a "Buddy" I would know where he worked.I am suspicious when the originator of this thread does not know the station his "Buddy" allegedly works for. Also when exactly was this report broadcast? It is not as if these things don't happen.I am however skeptical of this particular story. |
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 150 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 7:54 pm: | |
What amazes me is that the same person that will call a union steward because some yellow caution tape is missing on the floor has no problem with a hi-lo whizzing by them with a stoned driver at the wheel. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 1439 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 8:25 pm: | |
Bill Ford Jr. doesn't take any pay and has said he won't until the company returns to profitability. And I thought his personally going over to the Rouge when the explosion at the powerplant happened was both classy and damned impressive. |
Track75
Member Username: Track75
Post Number: 2416 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 9:04 pm: | |
There's plenty of work to be done at a plant. In well-run manufacturing plants the electricians, pipefitters, millwrights and other skilled trades are capable of performing useful work when there aren't breakdowns or PMs. They can be modifying or rebuilding unused tooling, performing quality checks on the manufacturing processes, or any number of things more helpful to the company and more personally fulfilling (and career-enhancing) than getting drunk somewhere offsite. It's just that the auto company labor situation tolerates waste and inefficiency. The common attitude that drinking on the job and slacking off is "OK" is one reason why so few manufacturers seek to locate in SE MI. I've been in plants all over the US and while some of this stuff happens everywhere, the situation in the auto plants here is exceptional. But it won't last, and those who try to justify and perpetuate it will fall by the wayside. Whether eliminated by management or by shrinking market share, the "good old days" of plant life are numbered as seen in this chart of the decling of UAW employees at GM (+Delphi) over the last 20-odd years.
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Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 2863 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:17 pm: | |
track75, how many salaried GM/Delpi employees will there be by 09? I believe 1985 salaried numbers were ~140K or so, the numbers now are probably less than 40k for the two companies and by 09 are probably gonna be ~25k or so (or less if Delphi bites the dust). If so this is about the same 5/6th reduction as with MFG job losses. Therefore is it reasonable to assume that these salaried reductions are also a result of a slacking off attitude in the boardrooms and HQs? IT can't JUST be on the MFG end of things because certainly modern top-heavy high-skill service sector companies DON'T seem to locate in MI where there should be an ample surplus of available experienced white collar talent to employ and a reasonably attractive QOL so it seems SOMETHING is wrong with these guys, maybe it is the culture ... maybe you are on to something with your analysis ... |
Track75
Member Username: Track75
Post Number: 2418 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:42 pm: | |
rustic, when I started in '85 there were 125K salaried. I read that it's in the 35K - 39K range now (GM only). Not sure about Delphi but probably just a few thousand. I'd guess around 30K in 2009, maybe less (combined GM + Delphi). Yes there was some serious slacking by some and probably still. What I saw when I was there in terms of job cuts was a lot of efficiency measures being taken. In the 80's computerization helped eliminate a lot of old-fashioned clerk type jobs. Duplicate efforts between divisions were reduced, common engineering helped on the technical side. Some non-core work was outsourced and suppliers took on more responsibility for engineering and systems integration. I noticed that as some of the old guard retired, no one replaced them. The work just got reallocated. There probably is something wrong with the culture. My second month on the job an attrition program was announced. They've been cutting heads for over two decades they're not close to being done. |
Track75
Member Username: Track75
Post Number: 2419 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:47 pm: | |
BTW, rustic, you and I may like Michigan's QOL but it's a hard sell to most. How many of your peers would take a comparable job in Detroit? In my experience, professional types living on one of the coasts with no MI ties won't come here very willingly. MAYBE Chicago. Even that's a hard sell for the NY/SF/BOS/DC crowd. |
Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 2864 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:57 pm: | |
track75, seems like you like me have too much nervous energy to simply watch the WS. I'm posting on two forums, replying to work e-mail AND getting drunk all while watching Rodney sucessfully relieve Bonderman in the 6th, lol! |
Rustic Member Username: Rustic
Post Number: 2865 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:11 pm: | |
re DET's QOL. Yes DET doesn't have the cache of a coastal metropolis but I'd reckon it's rep isn't significantly worse than any other of the flyover big cities (with the exception of CHI). IMO Detroiters generally think much worse of DET than outsiders. That isn't saying that much tho ... imo most of the coastal elite would just as soon live in peroria as DET as StL as Little Rock. I recall a freind of mine in grad school, a native new yorker who was looking for a job unsucessfully telling me "I'll work ANYWHERE. I'm telling you anywhere, Connecticut, New Jersey, Long Island. Anywhere." Yay Detroit! |
Track75
Member Username: Track75
Post Number: 2420 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:12 pm: | |
Absolutely. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 234 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:27 pm: | |
Exactly! mandatory drug and alchohol testing for all employees, especially the Engineers that work at the Tech Center and take thier lunches at Jon Jons. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 235 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:35 pm: | |
Also, if you keep a maintenance guy busy by having him upgrading tooling or performing quality checks, Who does the quality checks when he is away fixing a broken machine? What if he's got something critical taken apart to "upgrade" it, only to be called away to make a repair? Who's going to finish what he left off? Track 75, you sound as though you have some automotive experience, I can't believe too much of it's been in an assembly plant though. |
Karl Member Username: Karl
Post Number: 4709 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:03 am: | |
Not sure if it still happens - but when I worked in Detroit ('70's) I often worked an afternoon shift. Since I didn't go in until 4, a few buddies and I would hit the afternoon matinees, often in Dearborn and usually with a beer or 2 each. The parking lot of the theatre often had a dozen or so shiny new Fords/Lincolns/Mercs and later were clued in that if things were slow, various salaried folks would take in a movie. I paid closer attention and sure enough, there were the shirt&tie types. Naturally, I wished I had their jobs. Those were the days..... |
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon
Post Number: 93 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:10 am: | |
Where were their supervisors? What about the managers over the supervisors? Unions aren't perfect, but lazy and or inept management shares at least part of the blame when things go wrong. Too often, they use the union as an excuse, when they don't even know what's in the contracts that they sign off on. Conversely, those salaried people you see lazing around on a work afternoon might have worked until 1:00am the night before. That's the problem with being a salaried employee. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 236 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:48 am: | |
Or the group of skilled trades guys you see getting drunk at 1 pm while everyone at the plant is working away may have just gotten off of work. Many skilled trades people's shifts start at 3 am or earlier. It pays more, and it's not as hard as work as production work, but it has messed up hours, that's why many hourly people won't apply for a skilled trades job. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 237 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:06 am: | |
I gotta agree with what a poster said in the middle of this thread, the premise of an investigative reporter sticking his head in a bar and filming a bunch of employees drinking seems like too presumptuous a premise. Did he also film them leaving the plant, that's how he knew they worked there? How did this reporter know if they were supposed to be at work, did he call their boss to ask when their shifts were supposed to end? How did he know the names of the employees at the bar, how did he know who their bosses at the plant where? As salacious as some of those Team 4 Investigative reports are, I don't even think they would touch that one, knowing how many of Channel 4's viewers are hourly people that would be affronted by such a biased news report. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 705 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:00 pm: | |
I have a nephew, a municipal worker in a metro Detroit suburb. He says he and his coworkers can't go to lunch without being harassed by people, if they see the city truck people come up and yell at them for wasting their tax dollars. He said the worst was one morning after a big snowstorm, they had gone to work at 3am to start plowing, worked till about 11 am, exhausted went to get lunch, and in walks Fox 2 News and their cameras, "catching" them loafing on the job. It's one of the many reasons I don't watch local "news". Or at least with many grains of salt. Having said that... |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 706 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:07 pm: | |
If an employee is caught sneaking out and going to the bar, they should be disciplined. Turning this into the eternal DetroitYes union haters festival is silly. It sure does make better TV, though. When there isn't a burning house or a grieving family member. |
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 3952 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 2:59 pm: | |
Regardless if it's a guy on the line or some white collar executive. it's still an abuse of their duties on the job. They should be reprimanded one way or another for their actions. This issue shouldn't be about union vs. non-union people at all. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 708 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:03 pm: | |
Right. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 238 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 4:01 pm: | |
My whole deal with the Ruth Spencer I team is it's always going after individuals, last one I saw was a guy that plead no contest to CSC with a 15 year old boy. The I team was pissed that the defendant of this case was still allowed to keep his job in a shoe store at a mall while his case was being heard. I guess channel 4 thought he shoulda been automatically fired as soon as the cops showed up at his house to arrest him. Not that I have sympathy for a pedophile, but, come on, what kind of threat is he working in the public setting somewhere until he is sentenced? Even if he is a scumbag, he still has the right to work until he is found guilty and sentenced. Innocent until proven otherwise. The I team targets individuals and workers because they can't afford to hire an attorney to go after them. If they were to start showing GM executives on the Golf Course playing 18 holes on a Tuesday morning or a City Manager having a five martini lunch, Channel 4 would get their asses sued off. I just wish they'd pick on someone their own size for once. |
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 3955 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:48 pm: | |
Cambrian, I think you might be thinking of Kerry Birmingham and Fox2's report on a person that was accused of child molestation. I agree that he should be allowed to keep A job but there's also the issue of the court ordered bond that prevented him from having contact with children. Obviously selling shoes at a kids' shoe store violates that bond. Maybe that accused pedophile should be taking on some other job in the meantime until he gets this matter resolved or at least have his employer come up with duties other than dealing with children directly. |
Deputy_mayor_2026 Member Username: Deputy_mayor_2026
Post Number: 122 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 6:59 pm: | |
There are people who abuse the system in every positions. Humans naturally take what they can get away with. I do think that union workers need to be held accounted for more in this age. Likewise, executives should be expected to be free of fraudulence, but of course this is not the case. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 115 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:52 pm: | |
You never see the hidden video of the autoworkers volunteering at soup kitchens or blood drives. Same can be said of almost any source of employement. |
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 169 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 6:25 pm: | |
Channel 4 ran this story today at 6:00. Sweeps month is here! |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 275 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 6:28 pm: | |
I saw the trailer for it but missed it, what are the details, where'd these guys work, how'd the reporter know they where on the clock? |
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister
Post Number: 858 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 6:51 pm: | |
I saw the whole thing. They work in Sterling Heights. The reporter disguised himself in casual clothes and a baseball cap to look blue-collar. He actually sat at the bars (several bars) and watched the guys ham it up and do shots - day after day after day. He logged this one guy for 4 days straight. My maternal grand-father has to be turning over in his grave. He retired a 34 year Ford man. You have to go to: clickondetroit.com and click the Rescue 4 Undercover Video where it says CLICK ON VIDEO. It is selection number 2 of 7. later - naturalsister |
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 6:57 pm: | |
A followup was done today showing the bar was empty as the republican house chamber after these elections! Interesting story, but I agree that all news focus too much on "gotcha" rather than dealing with real issues. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 276 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 2:57 am: | |
I still don't understand how he knew they were on the clock. Did he sit down and start drinking with them and they announced, Hey we're on the clock? Were they hourly or salary? |
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1168 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 3:29 pm: | |
It was made very clear while I was interning at Chrysler 3 years back. No drinking "on the job" (essentially meaning that you better not drink and come back to work) and you were to take nothing from suppliers (food/drink/tickets/golf, anything) Simple enough. If I ever violated those things, I should expect to be disciplined. I know the rules, if I break them, I am punished. What disgusts a lot of people on this type of stuff is that either this is not allowed and the workers don't have enough respect for the job to follow the rules, or the union contract was somehow agreed to by both parties that ALLOWS this behavior, or it is disallowed but stewards and managers look the other way. You know the rules. You break them, you're punished. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 277 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 7:01 pm: | |
Ok, I downloaded the clip and viewed it. As I suspected the reporter was working on presumptions that he some how knew what these guys shift was. One of the guys he cornered even told the reporter he worked midnights, but the reporter said he drove by the guy's house (doubtful) and saw his truck there in the night time. Pretty flimsily done piece that is potentially quite damaging, there was no attempt made to contact the plant management to verify what start or end times these workers shifts are. For all we know, these people could have been sent home early because there was no work. I say damaging, because the company will use bone headed reports like this as an excuse to close this plant down and re open one in mexico. We should start taking digital photos of TV crews in bars or party stores buying booze. Here's the link to the video: http://www.clickondetroit.com/ video/1696120/index.html |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 130 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 5:11 pm: | |
Some of these workers lied to the reporters on camera, they were busted simple as that. Those of us who have worked in the automotive industry have seen this all too often. Many auto workers I have met brag and laugh about it. This is not to condemn them all but it does go on every day. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on November 06, 2006) |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 280 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 5:39 pm: | |
Like I said if the reporter had made the extra leap and obtained an interview or documentation from the plant management supporting his news story I would have found the story more convincing. Instead of seeing it as a blindsided attack by a group of numbskulls who feel they have greater knowledge of how things work at that facility then channel Four really has. It was simple tabloid sensationalism, not the stuff of Detroit Free Press (or NEWS) investigative journalism at all. |