Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Bagley Fountain 2: Electric Boogaloo « Previous Next »
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 112
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Snapped some photos of them working on the Bagley Fountain in Cadillac Square yesterday. I asked the workers if they were putting the drinking fountain piece, with all the lion heads on it, back in.

He said they're making a new one cuz someone did, indeed, steal it when it was in storage. "It's probably sitting in some rich (expletive)'s garden now," he said.

Anyway, sad, but at least the fountain is looking good. Sorry it's so small, but it wouldn't let me upload anything bigger. I put up a larger image here: www.msu.edu/~austind1/bagley.jpg



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Frenchman_in_the_d
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Username: Frenchman_in_the_d

Post Number: 73
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

a lot of people might castigate me here...

I love the idea of urban parks, but don't you guys think this too much. It's supposed to be the city core, thus an idea of a very high urban density. I'm kind of bothered by the 'sprawling parks. Campus Martius is just great, but I don't see this 'addition' adding to the urbanity of the area. Walking down there I feel it's too open, wide, spread out. This fountain I feel made this area way too loose and kind of obstructed an eventual high density area in this city core.
I would love to see more compacity in the park designs in the city a-la Campus Martius.

Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?
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Rsa
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Username: Rsa

Post Number: 957
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

frenchman; you of all people should understand where this is coming from. it's not the idea of taking out density to put in parks, it's the idea of replacing green boulevards. campus martius used to be a big, paved intersection. where the bagley fountain is used to be an ugly bus station.

point is, these were always planned this way to offset the density (based on pierre l'enfant's radiant city plan; inspired by paris; much like the champ elysses. [forgive my french spelling]) the reason it feels so empty now is because we've (IMO stupidly) torn down most of our density and urbanity.

so, i believe that this restoration of green space will ultimately make many of the surrounding parcels more attractive for development and ultimately provide a beautiful, urban space.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1397
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uh, Frenchman, this is not exactly what I'd call a "sprawling" park. It's smaller than Campus Martius. And there were no buildings in this median where the park was built, so we didn't lose any density.

I agree with your general point, though. Awhile ago there was a thread on this forum with the suggestion that it would be great to have a huge Central Park-like sprawling park around Woodward in the midtown area, which is a terrible idea for the reasons you mention.
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Frenchman_in_the_d
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Username: Frenchman_in_the_d

Post Number: 74
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rsa, Dougw,

I perfectly agree with the points you put forward. Yes it is smaller than CM and nothing was torn down (for once!) to have the Bagley fountain. But I would love to see boutiques, residences... more urbanity in this area.
I mean look at the picture Rhymes posted: depressing. The background is parking sturctures, one (!) building and the RenCen fortress... I think you all grasped my point.
I find this area a very empty and void of any charm (especially the picture taken -Rhymes, nothing against your picture skills!). Why didn't they add benches? Trees? Something for God's sake! It looks so empty! Only red/pinkish pavement...
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Rsa
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Username: Rsa

Post Number: 958
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i agree with you there frenchman; what is the deal with all of the pavers? perhaps i'm a little too practical, but i like for space to have a "reason." what are you supposed to do there? can't sit, can't plant, can't recline, can't put up a stage, can't really perform, no shade, etc.

i'll also agree with you on rampant park installation. i don't think it really helps out the urban environment when sprawling parks are installed 'cuz nothing else better is happening. i think those "mini-parks" in brush park were disastrous to the neighborhood. and the "kern park" (where compuware is today) was terrible as well.
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Sknutson
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Username: Sknutson

Post Number: 724
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"compacity"?
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2888
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

compacity = the area of the CBD near Compuware?
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3017
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info Rhymeswithhawk.... looks like some folks on the other thread have some egg on their face for doubting you!
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Andyguard73
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Username: Andyguard73

Post Number: 149
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is there anyway anyone can get any pictures of the park from one of upper floors of the buildings around it? I can see from the little bit on the CM webcam that its not following their old rendering, and I'd really like to see what the overall look is.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2188
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Frenchman, Detroit has a density problem (lack of it), but a small downtown park does nothing to affect that. If anything, they add cohesion to downtown and add an appeal. Because of this park the Monroe block, which currently sits as a parking lot, will no doubt be developed as a high-rise sometime soon, rather than as another parking garage, because the parks have given this property a real sense of place.

Detroit's density problems come from all of the surface parking lots, the result of the slow destruction of small/midsize downtown buildings since WWII. Very few blocks downtown have the cohesive structure of storefronts that they originally had, and that most other downtowns still have. They include the west side of Woodward from State to GCP; two blocks of Monroe in Greektown; a couple blocks on Broadway and around Harmonie Park; a couple blocks on Washington Blvd. In the end, though, building downtown parks (especially pocket parks that are really just islands in large roads) are hardly our problem.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 4068
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Compared to the transit center of a few years ago, you should be jumping up and down for joy.

I'm guessing the lack of tables and benches currently(?) is to possibly prevent the former denizens from returning.
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 161
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That space around the fountain is terrible design, or a lack of it.

Like Rsa said, there's nothing there. Instead of it being a place where people linger and relax and its going to be a place people just walk by to get somewhere else.

Terrible.

The only thing I could maybe see them do is put tables and chairs around it with some planters but since they would have to be bolted and chained to the ground how practical is that?
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Southen
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Username: Southen

Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Theres nothing wrong with the location or idea of this park. What I have a problem with is the lack of "green" there. I really liked the original plan which included mostly grass in that area, and it worked because this park isnt the gathering place that Campus Martius is. So, if there werent people there it still looked good because of the grass and trees, now its just stark pavers. I really think they dropped the ball with this one, although its still a big improvement over what has been there in the past.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am pretty sure that seating and planters will be added to the site.
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 163
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope your right SpiritofDetroit.

Less green means less maintenance but also less attractive.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At least that is what I was told when I inquired about the site plans a few months ago.

The fountain itself looks great though...
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 164
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree
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Detroitstar
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Username: Detroitstar

Post Number: 300
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the lack of green space has to do with future use of the park. With the 4th Friday stuff this past summer closing Woodward, the new park can act as a display area so there would no longer have to be the inconvenience of closing the streets.
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 754
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I mean look at the picture Rhymes posted: depressing. The background is parking sturctures, one (!) building and the RenCen fortress...




The background of the photo shows the Millender Center hotel tower, Millender apartment tower, Millender garage, 5 Ren Cen towers, the Old County building, the Reid building, the Checker Bar building, and the 2 garages behind Comerica Tower.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 597
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, there's also two orange barrels and some construction fencing. And a stop sign.

But mostly, parking garages.
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 1071
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasn't there a farmers market in Cadillac Square, facing Campus Martius, in the nineteenth century? When I say farmers market, I mean a four or five story victorian looking building.
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Ramcharger
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Username: Ramcharger

Post Number: 99
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes there was.

Central Market
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Rsa
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Username: Rsa

Post Number: 959
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cadillac square was the former home of central market. it had "sheds" exactly like eastern market, except they were long runs instead of a cross layout. they were positioned length-wise along the median. they were eventually removed to belle isle, where they served as stables. about two years ago they were "dismantled" and put in storage at greenfield village for supposed future restoration and reuse. at the time of their dismantling they were considered to be some of the oldest structures in the city.
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 251
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that building on the right is georgeous....razed for first national building I assume?
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Neilr
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Username: Neilr

Post Number: 378
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The building on the right was the old Russell House. It was replaced in 1907 by the Pontchartrain Hotel (Mason & Rice) which was sold in 1920 and at that time replaced by the First National Bank Bldg.
(Hawkins Ferry, p 211, 212).
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1697
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are a couple of other views of Old Central Market in Cadillac Square.

Old Central Mkt

Old Central Mkt
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Frenchman_in_the_d
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Username: Frenchman_in_the_d

Post Number: 76
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My goodness,

great great pictures.
Honnestly, if someone have me these pictures out of the blue, I would think it's Vienna back in the days. It also looks like there is a great number of churches... also destroyed?? THe one on the last picture, on the square.. ?
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 4081
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that was the old City Hall, the "new" Old City Hall, behind that to the left.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3025
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although some churches (especially wooden ones) were razed in the last 125 years, as well as a few destroyed by fire.... but all in all downtown stone/brick churches survived in greater numbers than other structures did.

The oldest surviving churches date to 1848, 1849 and 1855. Earlier churches were usually made of wood.
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Ramcharger
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Username: Ramcharger

Post Number: 100
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is the back of the Central Market building pictured in 1st old photo.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 116
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I find this area a very empty and void of any charm (especially the picture taken -Rhymes, nothing against your picture skills!). Why didn't they add benches? Trees? Something for God's sake! It looks so empty! Only red/pinkish pavement...

Hey, don't hate the photo-taker, hate the planners. But seriously, the orange fencing and barrels are all along Caddy Square, which would hint that it's not done. You can't get INTO the park itself without stepping over the temporary fencing. So I think there's lots more to come. Be patient. People who live in the city (and around it, I guess) should be used to that. :-)
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Kathleen
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Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 1679
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 8:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check out this FIVE THINGS: About Bagley Fountain piece in today's Free Press:

"Detroit's first public drinking fountain, an architectural gem, is back. ...

Created in 1887 with money from the estate of John Judson Bagley, the pink granite drinking fountain cost about $7,000 ($143,675 in today's money) to build.

It now stands downtown on the just-rebuilt Cadillac Square, east of Campus Martius. ...

The Romanesque-style fountain is the only known surviving work in Michigan of Henry Hobson Richardson, who is considered to be one of America's most important architects. ..."

Full article plus pictures at http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006611060348
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Kathleen
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Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 1680
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

P.S. Thanks, Rhymeswithrawk!!
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 1183
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

roof

Heres the Market roof while it was part of the Belle Isle stables.

dismantled

Here is a portion that was dismantled and is stored in the Henry Ford Museum warehouse currently.

interior1

Heres the interior of the roof

interior2

Another

castironjoist

Cast iron and wooden support details


staircase

This spiral staircase was also originally in the Market building.

The guys who were dismantling to roof saw me poking around and invited me into the work area. They did their best to save every single board that was original to the Market.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 1284
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^ WOW!
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3031
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the nice pics Mauser765!

And thanks for the link Rhymeswithrawk... that article also mentions and shows the other Detroit gem that I mention on this Forum frequently.... the neglected Merrill Fountain in Palmer Park. I think it should be the next Detroit icon that is restored and relocated back downtown. It would make a nice centerpiece for when Capitol Park gets rehabbed.

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