Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Detroit (DTW) Amongst Hardest Airports to get to « Previous Next »
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Upinottawa
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Post Number: 599
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the USA Today:

DENVER, DETROIT AMONG HARDEST AIRPORTS TO GET TO

Frequent fliers have seen their share of road congestion. Several say Detroit and Denver airports have the worst public transit links.

"As the automobile capital of the world, Detroit has never had a reliable public transportation initiative in place," says Mark Murphy, who works for a dental education institute in Key Biscayne, Fla.

"There are no trains to the planes, just automobiles. Bus routes cannot get you there quickly, and they do not run far into the suburbs."

Denver's airport is a long way from downtown, and the only bus service is a shuttle, says Leon Young, a business consultant in Santa Fe.

"The drivers want to wait until they get enough passengers, and the trip can be a rather long one."

Several other frequent fliers praise the rail services that go directly into the airports serving San Francisco, Atlanta and Chicago.

"O'Hare has the best public transportation system," says Sammy Tamil, sales manager of a tile company in Port Reading, N.J. "It's very accessible to get to once you land, and the signage is excellent."

By Gary Stoller


The main article discusses new mass transit options many American communities are building to make city to airport travel cheaper and faster. Obviously, Detroit is not on the list....

http://www.usatoday.com/travel /flights/2006-09-26-airport-tr ansit_x.htm
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Salvadordelmundo
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Username: Salvadordelmundo

Post Number: 48
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is something of a problem from the perspective of encouraging international tourism to Detroit, particularly "backpacker" and youth tourism. It would be nice to have some cleverly-named "airport rocket" running along an Ann Arbor-downtown Detroit axis.
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Reetz12
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Post Number: 94
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Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the other note, Denver and Detroit are two of the newest and nicest..maybe largest as well. They had to build these away from the downtown of the cities, because of the large amount of land needed.

I was in Denver last month, and the damm bus driver left me at the car rental place, while my friends were on the bus, he only had 8 people on the bus, but wasn't waiting for anyone!
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 588
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$2 billion for a rail line from lower manhattan to JFK? They already have that, it's called the A Train. Jesus, send some of that money this way.

On another note, yes, Chicago is very convenient. In fact, when I fly back to Detroit for Thanksgiving, I'm leaving from O'Hare and returning to Midway. Saved a lot of money that way.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4614
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Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is one of those "tell me something I didn't know" reports, and something many of us rail advocates have been arguing for quite some time. If only a rail to the airport that would be a great start. One shouldn't have only one serious option to get to and from the airport. Options in transportation are all any of us are asking for.
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Baltgar
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Username: Baltgar

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shocking!
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 314
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Support a tax increase for the Ann Arbor to Downtown Detroit transit piece and use it as a springboard for mass transit throughout the region.

http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com/

We have no right to complain about transit service if we consistently under-fund transportation.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 1860
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Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DTW is perhaps the last bastion of a white dominated political power base in Wayne co.It is also the only airport in the country to charge or attempt to charge a municipalities public transit to take people to the airport.The Ann Arbor transportation authority(aata) tried to create a bus/shuttle service to the airport but the airport wanted $$.There is no other airport in the country that demands that charge.After investigating and finding no other airport had this charge aata refused to pay and of course there is no public transit from AA to dtw.
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Karl
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Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reetz12 said: "Denver and Detroit are two of the newest and nicest" Denver's location and airport are new. Part of Detroit's airport is new - but the location is very old.

Focusonthed - more & more folks I know are using the train from Detroit (Dearborn) to Chicago now that security/baggage/etc is longer than the flight. They love it - comfortable, no hassle, same overall time - but only if the transportation works at both ends.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 591
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Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl, I often train back as well. Had I been coming from my office downtown instead of my home, I might have chosen that this time as well. But I'm not, and I have limited time to make it home for Thanksgiving dinner(!!!) so I'm flying this time! I'll probably train at Christmas.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1882
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

On the other note, Denver and Detroit are two of the newest and nicest..maybe largest as well. They had to build these away from the downtown of the cities, because of the large amount of land needed.




I don't agree with this. Dulles is something like 25 or 30 miles from downtown DC, but has a flyer bus to the Metro, and express Metrobus service into town (every 40 mins). BWI has no less than half a dozen public transit services. Newark is a bit of a ride from Manhattan, but has very frequent train service. Hell, even sprawling Atlanta has MARTA from the airport into downtown. These airports are all decent size, located far and away from the central city. The Detroit region is just LAZY on the whole when it comes to providing transportation options.
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Cabasse
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Username: Cabasse

Post Number: 20
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

updates coming nov 8th for the aa-det study.

http://www.modeldmedia.com/int henews/transit68.aspx

i'm certainly looking forward to hearing something.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2425
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Absent an effective regional transit system, an airport-to-downtown link in pretty useless for most travelers.

If someone is flying into DTW for a one or two day meeting (probably in Troy, Auburn Hills, Novi or other such burb) they aren't going to take a ride downtown, then a SMART bus to Royal Oak, transfer to another route, then roll their suitcase and laptop case 1/2 mile to their hotel, figure out which bus takes them to the industrial park where the meeting is, and repeat in reverse the next day.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 319
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl, DTW has expanded its runways in the last few years; adding a 4th N-S runway and a 2nd E-W runway. This has lead to mitigation efforts such as the building of crosswinds marsh nature preserve.

CL, Lester Robinson runs the airport, how can it be a bastion of white power?
http://www.metroairport.com/Si te/BlogTemplate.asp

Track, We need to invest in our transit system to have regional transit. Major upgrades ro transit systems are built in pieces that are linked together. It took them 20 years to complete DC's subway, and even that is not the only transit offered in the region.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on November 02, 2006)
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Danindc
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Post Number: 1883
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know what, though, track? Some of those people flying into DTW are going downtown. Some of those people would like to be able to take a train, as they do in other cities, rather than rent a car.

Your take on this amounts to, "Not everyone is going to ride a train, therefore a train is a waste." Not everyone drives on I-75, either. Maybe we should bulldoze it.

Yet we wonder why Detroit lags other cities.
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Apbest
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Post Number: 252
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh, for example, a buisness person in bloomfield hills/bham/bev hills or anywhere on the near west/eastside would take a train from downtown instead of driving all the way to DTW and pay for parking. They get their wife/husband/friend/whoever would normally drive them to the airport drom them off 15-20min ride downtown and then they ttake the commuter train
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2427
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There needs to be a viable, comprehensive regional transit system for an airport train to plug into or an expensive airport-to-CBD train doesn't make financial sense.

Unlike many metros, Detroit has relatively less business activity in the CBD versus dispersed elsewhere. It also has a poor overall metro transit system. Both these factors decrease the usefulness of a train that goes CBD<---->DTW.

If it were a part of an overall improved regional transit plan I'd love to see it. It would make sense. But absent a strong regional commitment (a specific plan, specific routes, committed funding) it would probably just be an expensive white elephant like the People Mover.

I don't believe in the "build it (the airport train) and they will come (all the rest of the transit system)".
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 3139
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah but keep in mind Track that that "White Elephant" you speak of was supposed to be but a smaller portion of a larger metro region that the burbs conveniently fucked away the federal funding that was GIVEN to us by the Feds (600 million mind you)...

So had they had their shit in order then the PM would not merely be a "White Elephant" as if it was the city's fault alone for that debacle...
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8087
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Track - Your belief is that if this line only helps Detroit and AA it should not be built.

What is your take on Patterson's belief that 75 should be widened from 8 mile to M-59. Since that will only aid OC I don't want a penny of my money going to it.

Once again a perfect representation of regionalism when it only benefits me mentality that is killing SE Michigan and Michigan in general.

If it doesn't help you or your community directly fight it as a waste. A perfect illustration of why SE Michigan will never advance.
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown Detroit still has 50,000 workers in the CBD, and even more in New Center. Among the offices located there are General Motors, Comerica Bank, Compuware, and State of Michigan offices. I would think that employees and clients of these institutions might appreciate the option of taking a train to the airport for business travel, rather than renting a car and dealing with parking.

Interestingly enough, track, while you were thinking of reasons to justify your "We don't need no transit" opinion, the Ann Arbor to Detroit Transit Study is considering light rail from the Detroit Amtrak station to the CBD.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8090
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan - Don't forget about Cobo. Conventioneers would love to have a link to DTW. Of course, outer counties would fight it so their hotels could keep a large portion of the convention attendees.

The simple fact is this could show massive improvements for Detroit and AA, that is the only reason people are fighting it. Outlying regions/cities have propsered at Detroit's expense and are willing to make sure that there is no advantage for Detroit and its business.

While I don't think they are actively fighting against Detroit and Detroit businesses they will certainly fight any initiative that helps Detroit at their expense.

Yay regionalism. There is a reason why Brooks thinks all road dollars should only go to widen 75 in his county and his county only.

(Message edited by jt1 on November 02, 2006)
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1399
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's about time this issue with DTW received some negative attention in the press.

There was an extensive article in the Free Press some months ago giving various grades (mostly good) for the airport including its new McNamara terminal, but there was no grade or even any mention of the complete lack of transit from the airport, which was pretty pathetic. Not to mention the Metro Car monopoly. (Yeah, I know, I should have written a letter to the editor.)

Of course, there is the tram which rides inside the new McNamara terminal... which is something of an insult given the lack of transit from the airport to anywhere else.
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Track75
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DS, you've illustrated my point. I don't care who messed it up, my point is that the PM was a waste of money because it never became part of a good overall transit system.

Jt, my objection would be just as strong if the proposed train were to run from DTW to somewhere in Oakland County.

Our region is so spread out that it makes one expensive point-to-point train hard to justify absent a network of connections throughout the metro area.

A train from airport to CBD makes sense in many metros and I use them in my travels and when I used live in some of those other cities.

Dan, twice you've mentioned that people would like the option of taking a train to/from the airport. So would I. That's not the issue, if people would like to do it or not. Rather, does it make sense absent a viable network of transit? I think it doesn't at this point given the current poor transit options and relatively small CBD activity.

For those who want an airport train to be built first, what indication is there that it wouldn't become a white elephant like the PM?
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So your solution is to do nothing until everything can be done. Every mass transit system started with a single line or small cluster of lines.

This can and will be expanded upon.

Why put a roof on your house if it is leaking. The drywall may already be damaged so what's the point of wasting money on a new roof?

It is the lack of forward thinking like yours that has doomed our region. This link could help bring development and improvement into the cooridor that it services and could be a first step at stopping the outgrowth patterns.

When you have a region in decline like ours something needs to be done and this will be a big start for AA and Detroit as opposed to building more roads going to nowhere.
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Track75
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you think the PM is a great example of "forward thinking"?

Why can't we as a region talk seriously about a regional transit plan, a combined SMART and DDOT, light rail along the spokes, enhanced bus or "fancy bus" service and HOW IT WILL BE FUNDED? I think we need a good transit system but given our regional history on it I'd like some level of confidence that an airport train won't just be another white elephant.

We don't have a huge surplus of money to spend on what could be a very underutilized train when that same money could go to a better bus system for people who need to take the bus to get to work or school.

To use your house analogy, this train may be like putting in a driveway when you don't have a plan for the house yet and don't have financing with which to build it.

AA doesn't need the boost, Jt. Detroit could use it but it this really the most cost effective way?
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

AA doesn't need the boost, Jt. Detroit could use it but it this really the most cost effective way?




No widening 75 will. Sorry for my cheap shot but that is why we not be able to come up with a comprehensive plan there are too many detractors like Brooks (widen 75), DeRoche (build roads were people want to live), etc.

This region will never come up with a regional plan and it is in the best interest of Detroit, AA, Dearborn, Ypsi, Romulus, Belleville, etc.

The all or nothing argument will only get nothing. You know it, I know it and anyone that has more than 4 brain cells knows it.

I commend the cities along this corridor if they can come together and move forward. If there is a tangible benefit the other people in the region will certainly be more cooperative.

The all or nothing approach never has an nver will work in SE Michigan since very few people think regionally. When the writing on the wall is so obvious that people like Tom Barwin leave it is pretty clear to see a regional plan will never, never, never happen.

It is like refusing to buy a 100,000 house because you feel you deserve a mansion and anything less is unacceptable. You have to build up with something small to get to the mansion.
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Track75
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think we lack the leadership for a regional plan (obviously, since we don't have one) but public attitudes may force folks like LBP, KK and Granholm to work together to come up with one.

Didn't the recent SMART millage pass? I guarantee you 50+% of the voters weren't voting on self-interest since something like only 1% - 2% of suburbanites ever use SMART.

I think a really tough sell would be asking Oakland and Macomb voters to fund a transit option that only serves a narrow corridor of Wayne and Washtenaw. It might even be a tough sell in Detroit among people who'd rather have DDOT run on time than have a cool train to an airport they may not be able to afford to use.

People become open to new ideas (like a comprehensive long-term regional transit plan with funding commitments attached) when a crisis forces them to do so. Our current economic troubles provides such a crisis. Transit could be promoted as a necessary element in the revitalization of the region. Unfortunately I don't see anyone capable of providing the leadership right now.

(Message edited by track75 on November 02, 2006)
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't GM still the largest employer in Michigan? Isn't it still located in Detroit's CBD? Why wouldn't a business traveler be likely in downtown Detroit again?
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Track75
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because there are over 2,000,000 people working in metro-Detroit and the CBD represents less than 3% of that. 97% of jobs are somewhere else that wouldn't be conveniently served by a train to downtown.
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Naturalsister
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What kind of demand would it take for improved transit to become a serious contender for consideration.

You mentioned the current economic situation being a crisis, Track75.

This seems to be the farthest thing from our legislators minds.

Focusonthed,

The A train doesn't go to JFK, but I know what you meant.

;-)

later - naturalsister
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 322
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many of those 2,000,000 would work in Dearborn, Romulus, Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor, Wayne, Westland, Taylor, or Van Buren/Belleville that the AA to Downtown Detroit transit study will connect with the airport?

What kind of synergy will there be to link WSU EMU and UofM together on one transit line, that also links to the airport?

How many of those business travellers would want the option to go to Greenfield Village, Check their bags, tour it, then get on the transit line back to the airport?

How much easier will it make to those in Grosse Pointe that need to get to the airport? Instead of getting dropped off at McNamara, the can be dropped off somewhere in the area between the CBD and New Center. How much time will this save their families, or how many gallons of fuel will this add up to collectively over a year?

Neither argument here is thinking regionally, and that is what this will be.
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Track75
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The cities with good airport-to-city transit seem to have:

1) lots of downtown businesses and residents to drive usage

and

2) a regional transit system (usually with subway/light/heavy rail) that can deliver non-CBD people to and from the CBD hub.

Naturalsister, on the minus side, our political leaders don't seem to have much of a vision of what to do. Then again, much of what needs to be done is out of their hands. It's in the hands of the businesses and residents of Michigan to become more competitive. Gov't can only play a small part.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People working does not equal corporate offices/headquarters/etc. I'd be willing to bet that a significant portion of that 97% of 2,000,000 jobs is in manufacturing. The CBD has 0% of the areas manufacturing jobs, thus why most people don't work there. That isn't to say their bosses don't... or won't ever work there.
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3rdworldcity
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit Metro is the worst airport I've ever had the misfortune to use. Even the new McNamara terminal doesn't hold a candle to most of the ORD terminals and certainly not American's terminals at DFW.

I flew my 60th and 61st flights this year on American last Saturday. I've used Spirit and NWA this year as well. (Spirit is great.) So, most of my flights are out of the old Smith terminal at Metro. The County is spending over $500 million to demolish the old terminals there and build a new one for the non-NWA carriers. Totally unnecessary and a giant waste of money. There are very few, if any, connecting flights out of the old Smith terminal and a lot of restaurants and other amenities are not required. People like me go out there, get on our planes, and have neither the time nor inclination to eat or socialize there. The same returning.

Based on my experience, the majority of passengers in and out of Metro are going to and from the suburbs, with a surprising number to and from Toledo. A rail system like O'Hare's would be nice but I don't think it would be used much.

People would be surprised at the number of people, mostly from Oakland County, who now use Flint as their airport of choice. I'd use it on my frequent trips to Chi but all service is to Midway, which I hate.
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Upinottawa
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Options to and from the Airport as per DTW's website:

http://www.metroairport.com/tr ansportation/

According to SMART's website a trip from the Airport to downtown Detroit on the 125 takes about 1.5 hours.

http://www.smartbus.org/Smart/ Ride%20SMART/Route.aspx
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Track75
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheartthed, you're right of course but I used "people working" as a reasonable proxy for where business travelers would go. Double the number working downtown and you still have 95% of people not working in the CBD.

When I used to work in the Ren Cen and had to travel I wouldn't usually go into the office before or after the trip, I'd come and go from home. Where do most people live? Not in the CBD. They're spread out all over which is why a train, even one that stops in Belleville and Dearborn and other places is of limited use to most people absent a convenient way to get to the train station.
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Upinottawa
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not everyone who uses a Detroit to DTW train is going to use only public transit. For example, a person living in Dearborn might take a taxi (or get a quick ride from a friend or neighbour) to the train and then take the train to the Airport. The cost of the taxi may be $10 and the train $5. Total cost return: $30 door to airport to door. That same person would spend $62 on taxis both ways ($31 X 2).

Someone from Grosse Point would pay $104 plus tip at Metro Airport Taxi Rates. With the train they could take a cab to Detroit and then catch the train.

Also, as most of you are well aware, parking at Metro is expensive and often involves a shuttle bus.
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 323
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmmm Ottawa can figure it out, why is everyone all freaked out over just the employment stat? Where does everyone live?? Lets see 2 million are in Wayne and a half million in Washtenaw. Thats roughly half the region's population. Hmmm.....

There are plenty of alternatives to get to the station, from cab to walking to bus to a 'kiss and ride' lot. Most stops in suburban Chicago have several hundred spots at each stop; and fees from those help generate revenues for the station's upkeep. It would be easy to put in parking lots next to the train stations, I know if I lived in Belleville and worked downtown I'd rather drive three miles round trip to the station than 40 miles round trip to downtown and back every day. Makes economic sense. Your car is a significant capital cost that you never recoup. It will last longer.

The Middlebelt bus will get you to Michigan Ave in Six Minutes. From Michigan You can get anywhere East. the Middlebelt bus ends in Farmington Hills at 12 and Orchard Lake. Therefore there is some bus access there now, it is just not much making it inconveient, but people do use it.

(Message edited by Detroitplanner on November 02, 2006)
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Detroit313
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Post Number: 228
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear you focus. I live here NYC and it isn't that easy to get to the airport......if you call taking a $40 d0llar cab ride easy.

$2B for a lower Manhattan route to JFK will be great, it will run right through my neighborhood in Park Slope.

What could Detroit do with $2B.

Hopefully Dingell and Conyers can get Detroit and Michigan some of the money when the Dems take control of the Senate. :-) Happy days are here again. 313
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2436
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The recent SEMCOG study was supposed to nail down demand and cost estimates but didn't. They're struggling trying to figure out the level of demand. That's important to the Fed's in determining whether to fund part of the sytem and to what extent.

It may not be easy to get the Feds to pay 80%. Recent projects elsewhere received only 60% federal funding and some communities paid even more than their 40% share to increase their chances of getting federal funding.

Who knows what the cost estimates will come in at, but with uncertain demand will local communities and the state be ready to pay almost half the cost of say, a $1B project with limited utility?

I think this is a case where it would be easier to sell the public on a big project with universal appeal than a limited project with limited appeal.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1885
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Overstate the costs and understate the demand, huh? The truth is, you have no idea on God's green earth what the "limited utility" of the rail line would be. Why don't you let the professionals complete their study before you jump to conclusions? With the pent-up demand for decent transit in Detroit, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a sizeable demand for rail service to the airport.

At the same time, the typical commuter rail project on existing trackage costs in the neighborhood of $2-3 million per mile. So, unless you plan to build a 500 mile network, $1B is just a big freaking guess, isn't it?
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2438
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Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chill out Dan, SEMCOG's own consultants have no idea what the demand would be and have stated such. Who knows when they'll figure out a methodology for forecasting demand that the Feds will buy into.

"Limited utility" means just that, the line is not part of a well-functioning greater transit system, it's basically a stand-alone. Therefore its utility is limited.

From my wording it's obvious that $1B was a hypothetical figure. They still have a number of alternative approaches floating around. None of which they've put dollar signs on despite the fact they were supposed to be done with the study by now.

Wow, you live for transit, don't you.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 233
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I tell you this, if DTW gets a train that takes you into Downtown Detroit, I will always use it each time I fly into Detroit.

Think of how easy it would be to use the train into Mid-town then take a cab to any place in (Metro) Detroit. 313
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1886
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

"Limited utility" means just that, the line is not part of a well-functioning greater transit system, it's basically a stand-alone. Therefore its utility is limited.




Well, why not plan a regional transit system, then? Part of SEMCOG's current study recognizes this, and there are several proposals for connecting to the regional transit system.


quote:

Wow, you live for transit, don't you.




Well, considering that I live where I do so that I don't have to own a car, transit is pretty important to me.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 604
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Similarly, a chunk of why I left Detroit was so I wasn't forced to drive to work.
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Rooms222
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Username: Rooms222

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In four weeks, the Middlebelt Bus as it is now will no longer exist....After getting picked up by SMART at the airport with their convenient "almost hourly" service (during business hours), you will get dumped off by SMART at Garden City Hospital then have to switch buses and go up Beech Daly. Then you can switch to a third bus on Grand River in Farmington to go up Orchard Lake Road....Thanks, Livonia!

Don't forget your transfers, and please be sure to take all luggage and personal items with you on Metro Detroit's state of the art public transit system....

http://www.smartbus.org/smart/ newsinfo/SMARTNovember272006Pr oposals.pdf

(Message edited by rooms222 on November 02, 2006)

(Message edited by rooms222 on November 02, 2006)
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 901
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 1:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.geocities.com/Baja/ 5692/murals.html

check out the creepy murals at the Denver Airport supposedly the place is pure evil
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 603
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is even worse about Metro is the lack of reasonably priced shuttle services. Does anyone know if there are regularly scheduled hotel shuttle services running from Detroit, Dearborn, Troy, etc. to the Airport.

In Toronto, you can catch a regularly scheduled hotel shuttle (not operated by the hotel) for about $15 one way. In Ottawa you can even take a bus to Montreal's airport for $20 one way.

The lack of airport travel options makes every trip to and from Detroit more expensive than it should be. This is just another example of the Detroit area being uncompetitive vis-à-vis other North American cities.
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Treelock
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Username: Treelock

Post Number: 172
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I lived in Detroit, just a stone's throw from I-94 and maybe a 15 minute drive to the airport, it cost my wife and I something like 50 bucks for a car to take us home. My wife's brother recently spent more than $60 to get to our current home in Ferndale from DTW.

Hells yes people would use a downtown connector.
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Frenchman_in_the_d
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Username: Frenchman_in_the_d

Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many of my friends in France transited through DTW (becoming a major hub, especially after the new Terminal is done) to go to California for a visit.
They had a little more than 6 hours waiting time in DTW. They tried so hard to find some cheap/non-expensive way to reach downtown.
Taxi cabs and Metro cars were out of the question and the extreme rarity of shuttles made it very hard within a 6 hour time frame.
What a shame!
Back in 2002 when I came to Detroit to visit my brother, I found it especially hard to get anywhere from the airport.
This is a lot of $$$ Detroit is missing out on. Once again, a shame, considering how other major hub airports are trying to cater to transiting tourists to visit the city, be it only a few hours.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 605
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Frenchman: as you know with 16 euros and a 6 hour layover in Paris at CDG one can do some serious damage in terms of visiting Paris and catching that connecting flight.

It's all about the RER B, baby. Train from the airport to the city for only 8 Euros!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER

(Message edited by upinottawa on November 03, 2006)
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Frenchman_in_the_d
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Username: Frenchman_in_the_d

Post Number: 95
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Upinottowa,

there is the "CDG-Opera" shuttle for E9.50 every 25-30mn. It takes 35mn to get from CDG to Place de l'Opera. You have a good 3 hours to chill in Paris, have a nice Expresso and a fresh 'viennoiserie'. Six hours is ample to get a -true- very quick yet interesting glimpse into Paris.
Ah! If only Detroit!
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 606
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hub airports in interesting cities would greatly benefit from cheap, reliable transit to and from the airport. Next weekend I am heading south and have two layovers: one in Chicago (going) and then one in Philly (returning). The layovers will be fairly short. I almost considered taking a longer layover in Chicago in order to get a quick view of the city.

Unfortunately, with respect to Detroit, any quick jaunt downtown and back would cost you over $100. That's a lot of money to check out Campus Martius and the Fisher building (not to mention the cost of a cab from CM to the Fisher).
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 607
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately, you'll have to have a pretty sizable layover in Chicago to get anything out of a trip to the city from O'Hare. It's easy, sure. But it'll take you about 42-45 minutes.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 608
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Focus: that is inevitable with most major airports. Commuting from an airport to the city in order to check out the city for an hour or two usually requires a good 5 to 6 hour layover. That being said, at least one can take transit from the Airport to downtown in 45 minutes in Chicago....
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 612
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You could always cut 15 minutes off the trip, get off at Damen, and enjoy Wicker Park/Bucktown. Reminds me of NYC's Lower East Side, except not quite as gritty. Lots of "hipster watching" to be done.

(Message edited by focusonthed on November 03, 2006)
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 611
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 12:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Published Sunday, October 29, 2006, by the San Jose Mercury News

Train-to-plane service improving
By Ed Perkins

Chicago's big plans for improved rail service to Midway and O'Hare
airports highlights the growing importance of train-to-plane
services in the United States. Although we lag Europe in providing
good rail-airport access, we're improving.

Here's a look at current U.S. services, based on a scoring system
that I think covers the most important criteria:

1) Location of airport rail station: 3 points for a rail terminal
in or next to the airport terminal; 2 points for a people-mover
connection to a remote rail station; and 1 point for a shuttle bus
connection.

2) Rail cars: 3 points for rail cars dedicated to airport service,
with baggage racks; 2 points for cars roomy enough to avoid rush-
hour conflicts with commuters; and 1 point for dumping air travelers
in with the commuters.

3) Frequency: 3 points for every 15 minutes or better; 2 points for
15-30 minute intervals; and 1 point for fewer than two trips per
hour.

4) Speed: 3 points for non-stop trips; 2 points for limited-stop
trains; and 1 point for multi-stop trips.

5) Convenience of downtown terminal: 3 points for at least one
downtown terminal providing easy access to/from cabs; 2 points for
central terminal without easy cab access; and 1 point for all others.

The cornerstone of Chicago's service, with a hoped-for opening in
2010, is a new downtown terminal for just the airport services,
coupled with non-stop trains between downtown and the airports.
It will use dedicated rail cars with plenty of baggage racks.
Initially, the trains will use the same tracks as regular transit
trains, meaning that the service, even though non-stop, won't be any
faster than the regular trains. Future phases will reduce travel
times through passing tracks or even dedicated tracks. The initial
phase would score 13 out of 15 points; with future fast-track
developments, the score will be a perfect 15. No U.S. city currently
scores that high; only a few European cities make the top grade.

New York/JFK rates a score of 13 points, losing only because of the
people-mover connection to the train and lack of dedicated airport
cars on the trains between Jamaica and Manhattan.

Other scores: San Francisco, Cleveland and Newark, N.J., 12 points;
Atlanta, Philadelphia and Washington, 11 points; Baltimore, Boston,
Chicago (at present), Minneapolis, Oakland, Portland and St Louis,
10 points; Dallas-Fort Worth, Los Angeles and Miami, 6-7 points.

The biggest problem with most U.S. train-to-plane transit services
is that they share downtown terminals with regular transit services.
Also, in many systems, you have to schlep your baggage up and down
stairs, with no escalator or elevator. That's a big plus for New
York/JFK, Newark and Philadelphia, where at least one of the
downtown terminals is a major rail station with cab ranks and good
loading/unloading zones.

Beyond downtown terminals, the different systems have different
strong points and weaknesses. Atlanta, Baltimore, Chicago (both
airports), Cleveland, Minneapolis, Portland, San Francisco and
Washington all enjoy airport stations that are either in-terminal
or immediately adjacent to the air terminal.

Most cities enjoy 15-minute frequencies or better, but trains are
less frequent at Newark, Philadelphia and especially at Dallas-Fort
Worth.

No U.S. systems currently provide dedicated airport cars with
baggage racks.

Boston's convenient system suffers because of the shuttle bus access
to the airport rail station and the need to change trains, downtown,
to get to the more popular visitor centers.

Despite the drawbacks, I recommend using rail access in all of the
U.S. cities except Dallas-Fort Worth, Los Angeles and Miami. There's
something great about sailing over, under or beside the auto and bus
traffic that snarls airport access so much of the time.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 242
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Livonia SMART opt out will mean that Oakland county will no longer have bus service to the airport. But, then thats what the majority of the voters wanted.

We do not need state transit funds anymore as Michigan is now the 36th state to abolish the fuel tax for transit to build more freeways.

This is what most of you voted for. Thus, you get the big freeways and more buses shutting down.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 333
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trainman,

Act 51 does have set asides in its formula from fuel taxes to pay for transit operations. Please check your facts.
http://www.michigan.gov/docume nts/act51simple_28749_7.pdf
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1216
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was in Chicago over the past weekend, and the concert I performed in was in the northern suburbs, I was did the park and ride from the Cumberland station on the Blue Line and rode that into downtown. Took about 40 minutes, but you would not believe the amount of people with luggage riding. What a great thing to have in our area. If we had this going downtown, it would give folks another option, and possibly help attract more conventions and business.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 142
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Act 51 does have set asides in its formula from fuel taxes to pay for transit operations



DetroitPlanner, I believe Act 51 does fund transit.

From your document:
Act 51 creates the Comprehensive Transportation Fund (CTF). Its purpose is to provide funds
for planning, programming, operation and construction of public transportation systems, in
accordance with the policies of the State Transportation Commission. The CTF receives 6.975
per cent of the sales tax on motor-vehicle-related items and approximately 8.5 per cent of net
revenues in MTF. The first priority for use of CTF monies is debt service. Administrative
expenses are restricted to not more than was used for administration in 1987 (after correcting for
inflation).

Most of the remaining CTF money is distributed to local transit agencies for operating and
capital grants for public transportation. Not less than 10 per cent is to be used for intercity
passenger and freight service. The remainder is allocated for specialized services and other public
transportation purposes.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 337
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fishtoes, thats what I'm trying to tell those whose arguement makes no sense! I'm sure he has a passion to improve the transit system, but he needs to understand how it is funded before he can solve the problems.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 243
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 6:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The state CTF funds to SMART now pay to match federal grants for new buses. The property tax has replaced this fund. This is legal but to take the state funds away is not which is exactly why DARTA was protested. The supporters of DARTA and the gross incompetence of DDOT and the Detroit City Council members were the cause of the Livonia opt out.

And that's a fact. So, please challenge this, if any of you can.

The reason for this is to pay for the SEMCOG 30 plan to add more freeways, which transit advocates claim will improve bus service as buses get clogged in traffic like cars do.

This is why the DARTA is illegal but I'm sure our lawmakers will change this to support the destruction of our cities to expand the suburbs. Unless, we as voters have the sense to stop them by voting NO on regressive tax increases that allow this.

So, go ahead and support the hamburger tax for Detroit bus service, if you are stupid enough to do so or one of the very few that will benefit from this scam to take away state transit money.
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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 123
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 7:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm in Boston once or twice a year, and one of my favorite parts of the trip is spending $1.25 to take the T from the airport into town; even when I was way far away in Quincy, it was $2.50.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 628
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Riddle: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Answer: Trainman
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Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 246
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Riddle: What is the sound of someone who knows nothing about public mass transit and is rude and does not respect the facts or other peoples opinions.
Answer: Focusonthed
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Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 631
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 1:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heh, okay.

I think you're rude with your frequently condescending posts. Besides that, it's hard to tell which side you're on. Either you're schizophrenic, or you're really bad at sarcasm. Either way, the election is over (has been for awhile), and there isn't one any time soon.

While I admire your tenacity, it's been made pretty clear that we've heard you, but just don't care.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 247
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since the next vote for SMART is not until 2010, this will give them lots of time to do something to improve public bus service, so Livonia residents and other communities such as Rochester and Canton will want to opt. in.

It is difficult for people to see what side I'm on but basically it's like paying for education. As taxpayers, we want our schools to teach our children basic skills essential to get a job and be productive citizens. So, it only makes sense to me that if I want SMART to come back to Livonia that I will have to help them get more customers and get the mass transit leadership we need in key government positions.

I hope this helps you understand me more because seriously if our public bus systems don't get more riders then it most likely won't do any good for either of us. I do respect other people's position on things and I do care because I work in the transportation industry and I know that we must connect all forms of transportation to bring back Michigan's economy. If I don't care then my job might be the next one to leave Michigan.

History has shown that Industry will not pay out of the kindness of there big hearts and our leaders in Lansing must know this and respond or we need to vote them out. The answer is family values and the belief in God.
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Rickinatlanta
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Username: Rickinatlanta

Post Number: 11
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've flown into both O'Hare and Midway and both have an airport shuttle van service, Continental Airport Express, to downtown and many of the suburb areas for HALF the price of taxis, That would be a great asset to downtown.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 144
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

DetroitPlanner, I believe Act 51 does fund transit.



Nevermind. I misread your post. Sorry!
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, one more community actually opted into SMART, Walled Lake. So at least voters see the need for some kind of mass transit. It's a start, now people need ot just start riding it.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 816
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love mass transit and pray nightly that we get it here in Detroit.

However, I think that with respect to the airport this is a very expensive solution looking for a problem. First, parking at the airport is dirt cheap by national standards, and the vast majority of airline passengers have cars and can simply drive to the airport.

Second, the vast majority of traffic at the airport (I think 90%) is connecting traffic. The traffic actually visiting the city is minimal. Of that, the vast majority are going to destinations that would be impractical to reach via transit. These passengers have two excellent options. First, they can rent a car usually for $50 per day or second for $60 they can take a cab.

A train downtown would be great for a very small number of passengers. But here's the final nail in the coffin. To be usable, it would have to run at least every 15 minutes. I think the cost per rider would be very high -- far higher than just providing a free shuttle bus.

I think we have to get light rail up woodward first and foremost. An airport train will be an expensive boondogle that will further poison the water against mass transit.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1918
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

These passengers have two excellent options. First, they can rent a car usually for $50 per day or second for $60 they can take a cab.




An even better option is to take a train into town for 5 or 6 bucks each way. Save 80%.


quote:

A train downtown would be great for a very small number of passengers. But here's the final nail in the coffin. To be usable, it would have to run at least every 15 minutes.




Are you making this up, or what? When I fly out of BWI, I always take the MARC commuter train, which runs once an hour during the day. On weekends, the commuter train doesn't run, so you have to use Amtrak.

You DO understand there is a reason that paid professionals conduct studies, right?
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1421
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I wouldn't consider a $60 cab to be an excellent option.

Ray brings up some good points, though. One problem with the CRT1 option in the Ann Arbor-Detroit study is that the Airport to Downtown Detroit route has two transfers. (Airport shuttle -> CRT stop in Wayne -> New Center station -> LRT or BRT downtown.) No transfers is ideal, one transfer is still OK but two transfers starts to become kind of a pain for such a basic route.

At that point, a straight BRT line from the airport to downtown is possibly a better idea, much as I dislike BRT. Throw in the fact that there is almost nil opportunity for Transit Oriented Development between the airport and downtown (aside from a few spots like Corktown which are not CRT stops anyway), and BRT starts to look like a winner, or at least a $5 shuttle bus.

On the other hand, if you're going from Ann Arbor to Detroit, CRT is still a lot better. So overall, it's a tough call.

I think we're agreed that we desperately need LRT going up Woodward, there are LOTS of opportunities for Transit Oriented Development along that route, something that BRT would not adequately provide.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1921
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

No transfers is ideal, one transfer is still OK but two transfers starts to become kind of a pain for such a basic route.




This wouldn't be any different than the current scenario at BWI or Newark. At BWI, a shuttle bus takes you from the airline terminal to the rail station. You catch the train into town, and from there, you take the Metro/cab/bus to your final destination.

At Newark, you take the Air Train to the rail station, catch a train into town, and then transfer to PATH/subway/cab/etc.

It's really not as cumbersome as it sounds. Detroit needs to stop being so scared of *gasp* being a modern metropolis.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 364
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, have you been on the West side at all?? The whole area W of Telegraph along Michigan is perfect for transit. Nearly all of it is very walkable. W of telegraph you have Wayne, and can really use it to help develop some sort of community identity/meeting place in Inkster or Westland.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 622
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had a 3 hour layover (unexpected) in Philadelphia last weekend and I was able to take a SEPTA rail train into the core and back for $11. The electrified train ran every 30 minutes (even between 8pm and 10pm -- when I was travelling). You could buy tickets from a machine or on board.

The R1 line takes twenty minutes to get from the Airport to the Central train station (30th Street). Even at 9:30 the train was reasonably busy.

I would have never attempted to do such a thing in Detroit -- the $100 in taxi fees would be prohibitive.

The only downside: the rail experience helped make me recognize just how far Metro Detroit is behind the cities it should be comparable to....
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 636
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does DTW have anything like this (for a similar price):

http://www.torontoairportexpre ss.com/ ?

Round trip from downtown Toronto is less than $30.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1438
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dplanner -- I'm an eastsider. :-) I work in Dearborn, though. Yeah, Michigan out that way could do well with better transit, pretty similar to much of Gratiot and Grand River. I'm not sure it's a critical starter line, though.

Upinottawa -- no, there is no downtown shuttle.
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

Post Number: 604
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just was at London Heathrow last Saturday. Using public transportation, it took me two hours to get from our hotel at the airport to the ticket counter. The shuttle bus service took us to the central terminal and then we found out that the express train was down for service. Waited 20 minutes for a coach to arrive to take us all to terminal 4 which is several miles away. I like to support mass transit but it can be a real headache at times. It was a pleasure to barrel down I-75 at 65mph on the right side of the road.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 659
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, that's too bad that your experience sucked, but I just flew back to Detroit from Chicago and it took me about 1h 20m to get from my couch to a chair in front of the gate at Midway, and it cost me $1.75. And it will cost me just that much to get home. Long live public transportation.
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Billpdx
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Username: Billpdx

Post Number: 18
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is an educational institution of the size and stature of the University of Michigan 45-50 miles out of downtown, and with rails already in place, and the airport in between. Any metropolitan area should want to connect all of this, whether it was New York, Portland, or Detroit. On the plus side, commuter rail is (relatively) inexpensive, quick to implement. It certainly does not solve all of Detroit’s transportation problems, but what it does is give people a choice, something that people do not have many of right now. (I do not consider a $60 cab ride a valid choice.)

1. Get the train running ASAP, and run a shuttle bus between the Airport and a train stop.

2. Run light rail up Woodward to Pontiac, and then run another line out Michigan, through Dearborn, to the already established airport train stop, and then send it down to the Airport. Now it serves as a connector to already established commuter line.

Two LRT lines and a commuter rail – It’s not the London Underground, but it’s a nice start to connecting the region, and development will start building around those Light rail stations. Run another line up Gratiot or Jefferson, and then you’ve got all three counties linked by rail, plus Washtenaw with the commuter line.

The key is to get started… NOW. It takes a while for all of this to get planned and built… probably at least 10 years. If it takes 10 years of dithering to make a decision, now we’re looking at 20 years.

All those who say Detroit is too spread out, and there is no point in building a train: I do not understand you. Do you seriously want the region to remain spread out and unconnected forever? This doesn’t make any sense.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1798
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gol-ly! So, it's as simple as starting NOW. Who would've ever thunk that!

Well, Billie. Time to get off your butt and come up with some $ billions NOW! How, specifically, do you plan to pull that off? Maybe you think you could dig much of that out of your magic couch.

Let's see... You plan on two to four light rail corridors and one commuter rail. Welcome to Metro D, mi boy. You did bring your check book, right? And you're planning to start right NOW.

BTW, I'm available to help you spend those paltry $ billions of yours after you get them.
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Rocket_city
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Username: Rocket_city

Post Number: 149
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote by Billpdx: "All those who say Detroit is too spread out, and there is no point in building a train: I do not understand you. Do you seriously want the region to remain spread out and unconnected forever? This doesn’t make any sense."

I often tell people with this argument that the City of Atlanta and the City of Detroit are geographically roughly the same size. However, Detroit has around twice the population than Atlanta (a higher population density). Yet, Atlanta has a heavy rail train system (MARTA) that serves it's most prominent corridors along Peachtree Street and then onto Buckhead and Dunwoody...areas of massive sprawl.

Does this dismiss the argument that Metro Detroit is too spread out to have functioning rail service along its major corridors? In my opinion, yes. With all the planning tools, principles, and funding mechanisms available at our disposal, Metro Detroit already exists as a highly qualified area to implement rail transit.

It's the realization of that that remains a major hurdle. Therefore, it begins with education.
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Billpdx
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Username: Billpdx

Post Number: 19
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At this point, the feds are still investing in rail transit projects for cities that are willing to build them. That gives you a lot more bang for the buck than going it alone. I don't know how long this practice will continue.

In the meantime, young professionals and graduates who want to experience living in the city tend to gravitate toward cities with transit, and the active neighborhoods and downtowns that they help create. I think Detroit could benefit from this sort of people and the capital they create, and I just don't don't think lots of freeways and strip malls is a big draw.

Again, let's start with commuter rail, and then go from there. I like that idea a lot better than investing in some sort of bus route that people won't ride, or doing nothing.

You seem pretty excited about this subject, Livernoisyard. Did you have something better in mind? I'd be interested in hearing it.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1799
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yawn! There's a massive brain drain throughout Michigan on account of few jobs. Don't expect many young professionals clawing their way to get here. When you get out of school--I assume you're a kid, based on your reasoning--you will leave too if there are fewer jobs then than now.

The Feds only put up $6 out of every $10 of capital costs for transit (and none of its stiff operating costs) and only if the local governments can come up with the money and if their planning pans out. So far this year, two reports on rapid transit were not supportive of the cheapest commuter rail project. And it's a moot point in any event because Detroit has a lousy bond rating, and the state government has to approve of any borrowing Detroit makes because the city is essentially going through the initial phases of bankruptcy, but nobody is calling it that as of now.

Like I said before--Come up with the money. Rapid transit is DOA without a sound fiscal plan, and none have even come close yet.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 25, 2006)
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Billpdx
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Username: Billpdx

Post Number: 20
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, man... you're killing me, Livernoisyard! I don't know what age you consider a 'kid', but it sounds like we've established who the 'old man' is in this discussion.

It would be a good thing if the city, the region, the state, or all of the above, can find a way to make an investment on this project.

Don't confuse cost of future light rail lines with the issue at hand right now - commuter rail. I think this is a project that needs to be done. It's a small investment, and it's a good start.
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Rocket_city
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Username: Rocket_city

Post Number: 150
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Billpdx, here is an interesting read from the New York Times. Though it is not related to transit specifically, there is mention of it in the article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11 /25/us/25young.html?_r=1&oref= slogin
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1449
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funding for the Ann Arbor/Airport/Detroit line (possibly including a Woodward starter rail line) would likely come from a Wayne+Washtenaw county sales tax, or property tax. That's pretty much the fiscal plan... well, including the $100 mil from the Feds. Assuming a reasonable plan is reached for this line, I think such a tax stands a pretty strong chance of passing, given the high levels of support for transit in these two counties (see the Semcog '01 (?) plan).
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 826
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thirdworld,

I respectfully disagree. The new terminal is fantstic. Parking is a breeze and dirt cheap ($17) for a structure across from a terminal. The TSA is better than most; the little train works great; there are ample check in kiosks. DTW rules! Especially over ORD, which I had the misfortune of flying out of on United for 15 years and which is a nightmare.

Danindc,

We all want mass transit in Detrot, but we better make damn sure the first line is a big success or the rest of the program will never see the light of day. While seductive, the airport line would be a fiscal castrophe and would be a huge mistake at least for the opening line.

Here are the cold, hard and ugly numbers:

There are 33 million people flying in and and out of DTW each year.

That works out to 100,000 arrivals and departures each day.

Let's guess (generously) that 20% of those are non-connecting, meaning people who actually leave the airport. That's 20,000 potential train riders each day.

Let's say that 40% of these people are actually visiting the region (most non-connecting traffic originates from the region, this is not a tourist town). That's a total of 8000 visitors each day.

Let's be wildly generous and say that half of all visitors are going to downtown Detroit. Of course, the vast majority are NOT going to downtown Detrot, but let's say it's half. That's 4000 people a day.

At $6 per ride, that's $8.7 million per year.

We simply cannot build a 20 mile train line that serves 4000 people a day and generates $8.7 millon per year in tickets.

Admittedly, I have ignored in my analysis the impact of a Dearborn stop, but which would improve peformance but I don't think could make a difference.

Also, some locally originating traffic might use the train, but I think it would be precious few. Parking is pratically free relative to the overall cost of the trip ($7-10 per day in the Big Blue structure). The airport is relatively easy to get to.

Most significantly, I have ignored the impact of airport employees. This in fact may be the largest group of users. They could further improve performance of the line, but for most it would be a monstrous commute to get to downtown Detroit and then head out on a train(running hourly) to work at DTW.

You can't compare DTW to ORD or DC, where you have established train systems, and more importantly millions of tourist visitors each year, all headed to downtown.


(Message edited by ray on November 25, 2006)
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Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1932
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Let's be wildly generous and say that half of all visitors are going to downtown Detroit. Of course, the vast majority are NOT going to downtown Detrot, but let's say it's half. That's 4000 people a day.

At $6 per ride, that's $8.7 million per year.

We simply cannot build a 20 mile train line that serves 4000 people a day and generates $8.7 millon per year in tickets.




The commuter line would actually be 45 miles long, servicing the corridor between Ann Arbor to Detroit. You neglectfully forget to mention what the operating costs of the rail line would be, and how that compares to the farebox recovery. Just so you know, commuter rail has a fairly high farebox recovery ratio compared to other modes (especially buses).

At BWI, roughly 1500 people a day (3/8 of your 4000 passenger figure) board a train. This is considered a very good figure, and BWI is one of the 20 busiest train stations in the country.

What's my point? You have put little to no actual analysis into your opinion. How about some support for your claims?


quote:

Also, some locally originating traffic might use the train, but I think it would be precious few. Parking is pratically free relative to the overall cost of the trip ($7-10 per day in the Big Blue structure). The airport is relatively easy to get to.




If "practically free" equates to $70 for a week's vacation, then you're richer than most. For my 10-day holiday vacation this year, I will take the train to the airport ($18 round-trip). Parking for that duration would run at least $90.

And in case you haven't noticed the title and first post of this thread, DTW is NOT easy to get to compared to other airports. When was the last time you traveled to or from DTW in bad weather?


quote:

You can't compare DTW to ORD or DC, where you have established train systems, and more importantly millions of tourist visitors each year, all headed to downtown.




In this, you are correct. Other cities are more pragmatic, while Detroit is stuck in the 1950's.


And Livernoisyard?


quote:

Well, Billie. Time to get off your butt and come up with some $ billions NOW! How, specifically, do you plan to pull that off? Maybe you think you could dig much of that out of your magic couch.

Let's see... You plan on two to four light rail corridors and one commuter rail. Welcome to Metro D, mi boy. You did bring your check book, right? And you're planning to start right NOW.




Please. Maybe funding could come from the millions of Michigan tax dollars currently being funneled to transit projects in other states. For example--the $2 billion the federal government is spending on the Metro Silver Line to Dulles Airport, with another $1 billion being kicked in by Virginia, and another $1 billion kicked in by businesses along the corridor *who voted to tax themselves*. The difference is that Virginia actually decided to plan and build this line instead of remaining content with the status quo. The feds aren't going to give money to a region that sits on its ass.

I guess you're pretty content with not getting any return on your investment, though, so why bother?

Let me know how well those highways are paying for themselves....

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