  Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3060 Registered: 10-2003 |
PROPOSAL 06-2 A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION TO BAN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PROGRAMS THAT GIVE PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT TO GROUPS OR INDIVIDUALS BASED ON THEIR RACE, GENDER, COLOR, ETHNICITY OR NATIONAL ORIGIN FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATION OR CONTRACTING PURPOSES The proposed constitutional amendment would: • Ban public institutions from using affirmative action programs that give preferential treatment to groups or individuals based on their race, gender, color, ethnicity or national origin for public employment, education or contracting purposes. Public institutions affected by the proposal include state government, local governments, public colleges and universities, community colleges and school districts. • Prohibit public institutions from discriminating against groups or individuals due to their gender, ethnicity, race, color or national origin. (A separate provision of the state constitution already prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color or national origin.) Should this proposal be adopted? Will you vote Yes or No? | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 166 Registered: 08-2006 |
No | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 352 Registered: 05-2005 |
yes | ||
Awfavre Member Username: Awfavre Post Number: 77 Registered: 08-2005 |
No. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1376 Registered: 05-2005 |
fuck no | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1212 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hell no. Hopefully after this Jennifer Gratz goes away. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 741 Registered: 02-2004 |
No. The only reason Jennifer Gratz was even considered in the first place is affirmative action. Silly bint. | ||
Solarflare Member Username: Solarflare Post Number: 564 Registered: 11-2003 |
Leaning towards Yes, still not sure though. | ||
Frenchman_in_the_d Member Username: Frenchman_in_the_d Post Number: 83 Registered: 08-2006 |
I don't know! Really! It seems as if all of UofM Ann Arbor is mobilized regarding this Prop2. Scores of students are gathering on the Diag. Sometimes the confrontations turn quite nasty between the pro and anti-prop2. I think people best qualified to comment on it is minorities themselves. How do our fellow African-Americans, Asian Americans and all other enithnicities feel about it? | ||
Matt Member Username: Matt Post Number: 1123 Registered: 10-2003 |
None of your business. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3140 Registered: 10-2003 |
I heard life wasn't all that cool in the 50's so I'll vote NO.... | ||
Alsodave Member Username: Alsodave Post Number: 768 Registered: 10-2003 |
No | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 743 Registered: 02-2004 |
Women have benefited from a.a. as much as minorities. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 875 Registered: 11-2003 |
Old Red.... people don't understand that. They think it's a minority thing. White women are the #1 benefactors of A.A.... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4619 Registered: 10-2003 |
No, they've benefitted from AA more than minorities, which is what anti-proposal 2 groups should have been pushing all along. Hate to say it, but if they want to push this on race, they are sure to turn out the large, middle-age white male vote who aren't even sure Civil Rights was such a good idea. lol Take this discussion 40 years back and they'd be the same ones asking why minorities and women are making such a fuss, or even fighting against them. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3141 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nope because when people mention affirmative action the FIRST thing they want to mention are BLACKS... | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 876 Registered: 11-2003 |
This should be a really interesting election.... I hate that people think AA is just a minority thing not knowing they have benefited from it as well and this will determine things for their kids in the future. Level playing field my ass... | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5152 Registered: 02-2004 |
Voting yes on proposal 2 will abolish all Affirmative Action programs by means of race, women and all minorities. THAT'S A EXCELLENT IDEAL Voting no on proposal 2 will keep Affirmative Action programs by means of race, women and all minorities going for a long time BAD IDEAL!!! It would be bringing Jim Crow back as the law of the land. I say ABOLISH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PROGRAMS BY MEANS OF RACE WOMEN AND MINORITIES NOW!!! | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 877 Registered: 11-2003 |
Danny, Let's hear how you would level the playing field | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 619 Registered: 01-2005 |
"not knowing they have benefited from it as well" I'm puzzled about how I, a white woman who went to college in the late 1960's, have benefited from affirmative action. I really am puzzled. So, I think, maybe some of the professional services that I use, such as my doctor, may have been educated by virtue of affirmative action - but all my doctors are men. And would I want an "affirmative action" physician who got into medical school with lower science scores because the university wanted the classes to be diverse? Honestly, I want the top scholar, not the diversity candidate. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5154 Registered: 02-2004 |
All right Viziondetroit, Affirmative Action programs are suppose to be created for those who the talent in the workforce back in the late 1960s. Unfortunately, Affirmative Action programs by means of talent and exprience has been changed to those who are in the minority. Later the AA programs are now shifting into a racial issues. Like the AA policies at the University of Michigan years ago. Their AA programs are being misused, letting more blacks in campus rather than whites and minorities. President King George Bush had to step in to cut UofM's AA policies by means of race out. Now the MCRI wants to abolish all Affirmative Action programs by means of race, women and minorities and that's a good ideal. Those folks are misusing AA policies letting any group of race and gender to enroll in any school district, schools and the workforce. That's why you see more women and other minorities in the workforce in every America cities, towns and villages and its got to stop so VOTE YES!! To end this new law of segregation called AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PROGRAMS. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4621 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, Danny, AA is akin to Jim Crow, blah, blah, blah. Really, just go away. You are an embarrassment to the pro-MCRI side, which actually is capable of making good arguments. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 266 Registered: 08-2006 |
A "no" vote maintains the Affirmative Action Laws we all ready have, I see no reason to change them. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 386 Registered: 06-2005 |
Preferential treatment based entirely on race or gender is wrong no matter the circumstance. I'll be voting YES ON 2! | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5159 Registered: 02-2004 |
Lmichigan, You can go ahead and support JIM CROW. I on the other hand my don't Affirmative Action by means of race, minority and gender. THE GHETTOMAN IS RIGHT his argument on affirmative Action theory while was a away from a conference. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5160 Registered: 02-2004 |
I heard that there was a certian group of people from California who came to Michigan to do one thing, LIE about the proposal 2. | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 1308 Registered: 11-2003 |
My Company told us that their opinion is that we should vote NO | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4623 Registered: 10-2003 |
lol, Bobj! | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 1309 Registered: 11-2003 |
Seriously, they did! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4624 Registered: 10-2003 |
No, I'm sure they did, but it's funny you said it as if you have no opinion or choice of your own on the matter. lol It's like a Jaywalking scene on the Tonight Show where a guy admitted to Jay that he votes the way his wife told him too. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 919 Registered: 12-2005 |
I'll be voting no. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1161 Registered: 01-2004 |
Affirmative Action should benefit poor people and also MORE than just the narrowly defined group described as "minorities". If Oprah (wasnt gay) had a child, that child would benefit from AA even being the child of a billionaire. That aint right - simply due to a racial preference. Im confused because it shure does seem to discriminate and violate peoples civil rights at times. Modify it so that it can exist Constitutionally. So - not yes or no. AA needs to exist, but its f'ed up really bad currently. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2191 Registered: 02-2005 |
yes. let's achieve diversity through LEGAL means in the future. | ||
Pmardo Member Username: Pmardo Post Number: 31 Registered: 03-2006 |
No. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3218 Registered: 10-2003 |
NO | ||
Swgz31 Member Username: Swgz31 Post Number: 25 Registered: 06-2006 |
yes | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 893 Registered: 11-2003 |
Choosing anything depending upon race or gender is patently wrong and racist. Yes on 2. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1662 Registered: 10-2004 |
It was a done deal as soon as it got on the ballot and stayed there. The demographics of Michigan assure its victory. And it's about time! [Although, we all know that there will be court challenges after court challenges--but to no avail.] (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 02, 2006) | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1072 Registered: 12-2004 |
Yes. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1073 Registered: 12-2004 |
Danny....those Californians who are lying to us naive Michiganders....does that group include Granholm? | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 236 Registered: 04-2006 |
NO NO NO NO NO NO - and i'm a white u-m alum... | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 116 Registered: 02-2006 |
Better question is "what have AA programs accomplished?" I'm not old enough to know what "it was like". I'm not a minority..... yet. Water will always seek it's own level. You wouldn't seek out and use a doctor that was given bonus points on admissions form. God damn there are so many cliches and stereotypes that can justify either side of this measure. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4625 Registered: 10-2003 |
Livernois is right, and isn't even shy about admitting the truth behind this: "It was a done deal as soon as it got on the ballot and stayed there. The demographics of Michigan assure its victory." It's the honest-to-goodness truth. That doesn't make it right, though. Whenever you hand the fate of the minority to the majority, is it any reason to believe they'd do anything but try and further increase their standing and power? "Do the right thing" isn't in their vocabulary. This was an issue handed right into their hands, and they are going to milk it for all its worth. These are some of the same people that were on the other side of the Civil Rights movement back 60's, and their children. The anti-MCRI's goose was cooked from day this got on the ballot, and you know this because of how desperate groups like BAMN got. Forget that those that have gained most by AA are white women, if the majority has the chance to malign the minority, they'll do it EVERY TIME unless their arms are twisted behind their backs by the courts. Remember, it took a full-scale social revolution/culture war just to get the majority to treat women and minorities like full and equal human beings. If we don't believe that they won't take advantage of every chance they get to roll back those gains, we are fooling ourselves. | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 12 Registered: 09-2006 |
You wouldn't know if a doctor was given bonus points or not especially if that doctor achieved merit through caring for his patients and fulfilled residency and board requirements. AA has nothing to do with that. The fact of the matter is voting yes on Prop 2 will hinder Michigan's economy even further being that businesses will not want to relocate their employees to an environment that doesn't promote diversity. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 401 Registered: 05-2006 |
The Catholic church endorses a no vote. As a Catholic, I will be voting no. Detroitej72 | ||
Soulsauce Member Username: Soulsauce Post Number: 182 Registered: 05-2004 |
No. And why is it that people always assume that if a person benefits from A.A., they did not meet the qualifications without it? | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 402 Registered: 05-2006 |
Ignorance. Detroitej72 | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 191 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yes. A.A. is a law that allows discrimination. Even if it is only against white men. As a white man I have to vote yes. If not for me but for the son I might have someday. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 312 Registered: 06-2006 |
Yes!!!! | ||
Stryker81 Member Username: Stryker81 Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 |
yes | ||
Justbeamensch Member Username: Justbeamensch Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2006 |
already voted no | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 153 Registered: 11-2005 |
no | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2005 |
No. Gratz got rejected w/a puny 25 on her ACT. Maybe she should try an amendment to ban ACT scores from being a factor in law school admissions, too? | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 124 Registered: 06-2005 |
"And why is it that people always assume that if a person benefits from A.A., they did not meet the qualifications without it?" Because the whole reason for having affirmative action is that it bumps up a significant segment of the population to a level they wouldn't have normally attained. If it's only a miniscule percentage that benefits, then what good is AA? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4629 Registered: 10-2003 |
A miniscule percentage of the population? Last time I checked, 50+% of this country is female, and that's not even to add in minorities, and the overall benefit to society (which the other side vehemently disputes). Why is it so hard for people to get that the biggest winners from AA are white women? Seems kind of a concious decision to me. As long as you're voting against minorities, it's all right. lol | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4828 Registered: 09-2005 |
Great discussion. Best so far: Southwestmap, esp her last sentence: "And would I want an "affirmative action" physician who got into medical school with lower science scores because the university wanted the classes to be diverse? Honestly, I want the top scholar, not the diversity candidate." | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 228 Registered: 09-2006 |
NO, now everyone who voices their opinion on this matter better actually go out and vote. VOTE OR DIE '06!!! | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2192 Registered: 02-2005 |
Detroitej72, I am usually one to listen to the voting advice of the Church. The theological reasons for wanting harmonious diversity and equality, by 'giving a break to the other guy,' are certainly there, but the local Church has displayed a serious lapse in good judgement by supporting institutionalized discrimination. First of all, AA doesn't promote racial harmony; after 40 years of it, is this state integrated? Nope. And like all the liberals, the Church leaders are too lazy too look at other ways to achieve diversity and raise up the downtrodden. We can do this by expanding the pool of qualified minority applicants for school and jobs; this is done through outreach programs and fundamental changes in our K-12 schools. Race preferences are a cop-out. Denying deserving applicants of a job or position in a school because there are "enough" of their type already is very unchristian. Sorry, the church is wrong on this one. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3062 Registered: 10-2003 |
What southwestmap hasnt said is that in most the jobs that she has had since graduating in the '60's have touted her employment as "demonstrating good faith efforts toward avoiding race and gender bias in hiring." Unless she's been a housewife all her life or has worked in her own business. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 109 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yes, but I voted 10 years ago when it was first done in California. Hasn't changed things much, instead of getting 400 blacks into UCLA this year, they only got 250. Pretty much the same in the other colleges and other groups. They do actively discriminate against asians though. A friend applied for a food service director at one of the public colleges here in Cali. He had 20+ years, including owning his own restaurant. Didn't have a college degree, that was the stated reason he didn't get hired. They hired a black woman instead. The two years she ran it, they lost $500k. We kill AA, he reapplied, got hired. $250k profit first year and every year since. The college president, who opposed hiring him both times, actually came and congratulated him on the fine job. Now before all you AA lovers tell me this just one example, you're right. The company I used to work for would put women and minorities into management spots whenever and wherever they could. They didn't want to get Wal-Marted for employment discrimination. A lot of them were qualified, but way too many didn't have a clue. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2685 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm with Dick D on this one. Voted no. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 557 Registered: 08-2005 |
Yes by absentee ballot. I don't see any reason why Kwame's kids or John Conyers' kids (who went to Cranbrook) need an extra 20 points on their UofM admissions application because of their skin color, especially considering that they went to the best schools, had private tutors, and all the opportunities that could be afforded to them. Socioeconomic A.A. would be a better alternative. It would still help black people, but only those who truly need it and not based purely on skin color. Not all black people need a "hand up" and not all white people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and opportunities handed to them on a silver platter and it is wrong to classify people in this way based solely on outward appearance. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2194 Registered: 02-2005 |
^^That's correct, and institutions can still use various indicators of socioeconomic need in a post-MCRI era. It certainly seems more fair and effective than making generalizations about the same issues based on skin color. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 120 Registered: 08-2006 |
As a female, I say no to AA. I worked my way through school, got no special grants or loans, just saved , worked and studied. I dont want any special attention or recognition just because I am a woman. I dont believe in quotas, and I dont believe in Affirmative Action..........THANKS, Jane. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 195 Registered: 07-2004 |
until I can walk around the suburbs and not hear other white people talking about "stupid n***ers", i think we need to keep AA programs in place. the amount of racism alive and well here in SE Mich never ceases to appall me. voting NO. but as Mauser stated above, there needs to be reform to help poor white men get education and jobs as well. if a wealthy black woman and a poor white guy managed to get identical test scores, i'd sure like to see the poor guy get into school and raise his poor family's standard of living. the wealthy black woman can probably afford to apply to more schools. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1568 Registered: 12-2003 |
No
The other girl who was denied from UMAA even though she had a 3.8 and a 26 on her ACT was on Drew and Mike this morning. Everytime I hear that whiny little girl talk it makes my skin crawl. She still can not accept the fact that her 3.8/26 makes her a dime a dozen candidate.
Stop setting goals so high that you can not reach, not everyone can go their dream school or profession, that is life. Learn to live with disappointment and it will make the world a better place. (Message edited by _sj_ on November 03, 2006) | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 620 Registered: 01-2005 |
Re: the assertion that, as a woman, I have benefitted from AA: I have worked all my life in teaching (a female-dominated field long before AA. I knew many women principals and administrators who achieved such ranks long before AA - so evidently they did not need AA to climb along in that field. Later I have worked for a private non-profit. You may not know it, but the city of Detroit keeps tabs on the hiring by private employers with whom they do or might do business. As I have seen this oversight demonstrated, the only real concern is whether the employer has enough Black managers and above.. How many women are employed and in what capacity is not a discussion point. So, is AA really about women? I have to wonder. Referring to the comment above from Inner City Doc that I wouldn't know if I had the doctor who was the Affirmative Action candidate - precisely. I would have no way of knowing because the process is all hidden. I want the best candidate and to insure that, the enrollment should be based on capacity to excel - not on race. I am undecided on Proposal 2. I am Catholic and the position of the Diocese on this does matter very much to me. Its just that I see both sides. | ||
Spacemonkey Member Username: Spacemonkey Post Number: 117 Registered: 03-2006 |
yes | ||
Bpjeff Member Username: Bpjeff Post Number: 15 Registered: 01-2006 |
Warriorfan and Mackinaw have it right - I am voting Yes. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 122 Registered: 08-2006 |
until I can walk around the suburbs and not hear other white people talking about "stupid n***ers ------------------------------ ----------- Care to know how many times I have been called a white s&%t, a honkey, a cracker, white trash and a few other choice names that I wouldnt repeat from a black person in the city, Updidamkibopdb? I want to be the first to inform you then, that racism isnt only limited to whites. Its that way for all races, black, white, red, blue, yellow, muslim, catholic, jew ........and on and on and on.... | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 13 Registered: 09-2006 |
To Karl and Southwestmap: I am a minority that got into medical school with AVERAGE MCAT scores and probably benefited from AA. However since I've been in medical school I've acheived ABOVE AVERAGE USMLE scores and clinical honors in many of my rotations. Why? because the playing field has now been leveled as I did not have the same opportunities in college as my non-minority counterparts. Now I will be afforded a competitive residency and be able to CARE FOR PATIENTS. When will people realize that being a "top scholar" is only part of being a good doctor. The most important part is having good communication and interpersonal skills. Besides do your ask YOUR doctor what his or her MCAT scores were? No on proposal 2 | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 196 Registered: 07-2004 |
jane, i discriminate against blue people all the time. guess you got me. to hell with them smurfs. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 317 Registered: 01-2005 |
To all you Catholics: The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops stated in 2000: "Our society must also combat discrimination based on sex, race, ethnicity, or age. Such discrimination constitutes a grave injustice and an affront to human dignity. It must be aggressively resisted." The U.S. Su. Ct. stated in the Gratz case that "U. of M has been discriminating against whites for years." The bishops also supported "affirmative action," but not action based on discrimination. Acceptable conduct in my opinion would be if U. of M established a "College of Remedial Arts and Sciences" which would be open to victims of past discrimination w/o regard to race, gender etc, or anyone who does not meet conventional admission standards and who want another chance. Those who pass would be assimilated into other colleges of the university. I lived through the civil rights struggles of the '50's. Had the MCRI been submitted to the electorate then it would have probably been soundly defeated, especially in the south. Up here, anyone who voted against it would be deemed a bigot. Discrimination was wrong then and it's wrong now. Just a different ox that's being gored. Two wrongs do not make a right. The end does not justify the means. Ever. Cardinal Maida is a co-chair of One United Michigan, the major group opposing the passage of the MCRI. He's a political animal and is callously disregarding the teachings of the Church. He's the one who has put $40 million of our money at risk by underwriting the cost of the Pope Paul museum in Washington while closing as many schools as he possibly can. I wish he were running for election. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3142 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah 3rd world...we can see how drastic the demographic of the student body has changed at U-M since severe discrimination against whites there began to be enforced... Just look at all the wenches and darkies take over! SMDH @ some people screaming reverse discrimination like 40 years of affirmative action is enough to reverse almost four HUNDRED years of injustice.... | ||
Bpjeff Member Username: Bpjeff Post Number: 16 Registered: 01-2006 |
As a Catholic, I cannot see how, on one hand, the Church tell us that discrimination "should be aggressively resisted" yet it promotes discrimination based on sexual orientation. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 621 Registered: 01-2005 |
Sometimes people speak of having a vocation to the priesthood. "Vocare" means a call. Most people think that the call the Church is speaking of is from God and so the Church is standing in God's way when they obstruct a call someone thinks he or she is hearing- when in reality the vocare is a "call" from the institutional Church. And the Church has decided, for now, and in the light of the sexual predation issues it has faced in many countries, to not call gay men. In the future, when perhaps the secrets of psychological maturity are unlocked and mapped, then I'm sure that gay men will be "called" again. | ||
Soulsauce Member Username: Soulsauce Post Number: 183 Registered: 05-2004 |
What gets me every time about these women is the sense of deservedness that they display. Where is it written that they were supposed to get into U of M? And what is that assumption based on? People get rejected from schools all the time for any number of reasons. The fact that they decide to blame it on Affirmative Action instead of accepting the fact that they just didn't make the cut speaks volumes. And as I understand it, Gratz would have gotten in had she followed up on her wait list status. Why not take responsibility for her own failure to return her paperwork on time? All this displaced blame for people who have some twisted sense of entitlement. As someone pointed out, white women benefit more than anyone for affirmative action, but just like always as soon as those who set up the system start to see others catching up and passing them...then they wanna go and change the rules. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2005 |
could we keep in mind 10 yrs ago when gratz actually applied to UM, a 3.8 and 26 actually meant something. Since grade inflation a 3.8 barely gets one into MSU. Also, as an aside, per the breakdown in the sunday freep a couple weeks ago, I believe white women make up a slight majority on every major campus in this state. those of you voting "no" my question is; When does it end? the Bakke case posited a 25 yr shelf life...the recent UM case O'conner said 25 more years should do it...just curious how long we're going to keep quotas going for the sake of "diversity"? | ||
Imperfectly Member Username: Imperfectly Post Number: 146 Registered: 06-2004 |
No- because im not comfortable about any of the alternatives to this. Do think it needs to be modified though. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2006 |
Actually, I wish there was a middle ground I could support. While the UofM's policy was a little drastically tilted towards minorities (admitting 3.2 GPA's), tilting even more drastically the opposite way does not solve the problem. There is no one with any modicum of intelligence who truly believes that minorities and women are given the same overall opportunities that white men are. (I know there are exceptions, but I'm talking about the rule here.) There does need to be "equal opportunity" programs to make up for some of the imbalance. Alas, Jenny Gratz-ass's draconian proposal throws the baby out with the bath water. (p.s. Some of the "incompetent" scholars who have benefited from AA programs include Secretary of State Colin Powell and Chief of Neurosurgery Ben Carson. But alas, not myself. I am an AA woman who graduated with a 3.93 GPA and $30,000 in student loans. Where are my d@mn benefits???!) (Message edited by yvette248 on November 03, 2006) | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 622 Registered: 01-2005 |
How did Colin Powell benefit from AA? Isn't he a little old to have been admitted to university under AA policies? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4636 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yvette and Imperfectly sum up my opinion (and most other's that benefit directly from AA) of this issue pretty well. AA is a flawed to some extent, the the alternative (no AA programs) just isn't an option to me. Life is full of "lesser of two evils" decisions. BTW, MCRI would be taken much more seriously if it would have simply formed as a group against ALL preferences. It wasn't just until last week or so that they finally came out against Legacy points in admissions which has always said alot about their motives. Their continued insistence to attack this as a race issue, when again and again this benefits white women the most, also makes quite a few people wary of their motives. And, I do also believe that Gratz is the wrong messenger for this. I just hate that MCRI looks like a wolf in sheep's clothing with sinister motives brewing right below the "we're fighting for equality" rhetoric. I could actually respect their movement if they'd formed as a group against also preferences. Instead, not only do they not focus on the issue of gender as equally as they do race, they make this almost specifically about race knowing who they are playing to. The MCRI, in its present form, is not a noble cause. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 110 Registered: 10-2006 |
Like always, California is the leading edge of everything. Just vote for the damn thing. We did. The leftys will piss and moan. Get over it. | ||
65memories Member Username: 65memories Post Number: 305 Registered: 10-2003 |
NO (Voting this issue down should be the primary reason to go to the polls) | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2006 |
Southwest, AA has existed since the 1960's. This proposal will eliminate ALL types of programs for everyone, not just admissions at UofM. On WWJ, they just promoted a "girls in engineering" program that has been successful in attracting more girls to math/engineering fields. Next week, that program will become illegal. Notice that contrary to Gratz' philosophy, this program does not keep men from applying, but just gives girls equal access via outreach programs to an overwhelmingly male dominated field. So when our country has to import another 200,000 Asians and Indians for high tech jobs because enough of our privileged, upper class males can not fill the openings, I guess we can't complain about immigration or outsourcing anymore. (Message edited by yvette248 on November 03, 2006) | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 113 Registered: 10-2006 |
February 1948, get over it. You won't be equal to men , and never will. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4637 Registered: 10-2003 |
True colors. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 642 Registered: 10-2003 |
yes! | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 154 Registered: 10-2005 |
Yes! | ||
Toog05 Member Username: Toog05 Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2006 |
No! | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 76 Registered: 07-2006 |
First, thanks to everyone for an interesting and civil discussion. i'm really impressed, and you've given me even more to think about as i decide on this issue. Personally, i'm a little split on the proposal itself, but leaning heavily towards no. I like the premise - no discrimination whatsoever - and originally planned on voting yes. (The fact that i'm a white male certainly didn't hurt that either) At face value, it sounds great. NO ONE should get bonus points for being black, white, or purple; or male or female; or whatever other separation you want to make. I DO agree that socioeconomic conditions should be considered, absolutely. this would transcend the black/white issues. poverty IS colorblind. I won't deny that most people living in those conditions are black, but as a society, we should be past the point that we assume that because you're black, you are from a poor inner-city neighborhood, and lets focus on those who actually do need help, black or white. However, after hearing arguments against it, I have to admit i have some serious reservations that this does not protect some very good programs that i have no problem with - the aforementioned 'girls in engineering' program, for example. Girls sports too - those should be preserved. Although I think arguments saying breast cancer screenings would be eliminated is ludicrous, i have to admit, technically, it could face a challenge. And these are just the issues that stick out to me, as a father of two smart young girls. I am certain others can find great programs in their lives or those of their families that would face elimination from this proposal. So in short, I feel that the IDEA is sound... but this proposal is just not clear enough to put into law. Too many good, valuable programs could be threatened by this. Instead, as others here have argued, let's fix AA to help those who truly do need it. But still listening to arguments - from both sides. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4641 Registered: 10-2003 |
Scott, regardless of your lean on the issue I must say I wish more people used critical thinking to form their views on this. It seems quite a few on both sides react to these things with knee-jerk reactions. I also share your exact concerns. I even agree that on the surface this sounds very sensible, but that is exactly the problem, as well, in that MCRI knows they are going to far. It's one of those issues that the less you know about it, the better it sounds, and that's how MCRI wants it. | ||
Sarge Member Username: Sarge Post Number: 382 Registered: 10-2003 |
C'mon Lmich, It is precisely the opposite. People who oppose the proposition have spread as much misinformation as possible. Engineering programs for women will not be come extinct: http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/ ~wicse/ http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/P rograms/grad/GradWomen/gradwom en.html Women's sports will not become a thing of the past. http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/se arch/www_detail.lasso?id=6670 http://calbears.berkeley.edu/i nsidepage.aspx?uid=bc9b5d4c-ec 48-44f3-b765-7123716d7505 I won't go into the breast cancer screening issue because Scott already realizes it is ludicrous. This is a simple issue. Vote in favor and preferences and quotas become a thing of the past. Vote against and you get more of the status quo. If one wants to see what the consequences of prop. 2 passing look like, they merely need to look to California or Washington. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2006 |
Sarge, your links are to social groups, not an outreach/recruiting program which are now illegal in the state of California where Berkeley exists. If you are going to give us "facts", please assume that we have a basic level of intelligence. (The "We meet every Friday at noon for lunch to organize social events" should have been a dead giveaway.) (Message edited by yvette248 on November 04, 2006) | ||
Sarge Member Username: Sarge Post Number: 383 Registered: 10-2003 |
Check this out Yvette: http://www.eaop.org/abouteaop/ welcome.html | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3146 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jennifer Gratz on Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1Zy sP1lAt18&mode=related&search= | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3147 Registered: 10-2003 |
Only race based huh... http://youtube.com/watch?v=LDm RahkZNik&mode=related&search= | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3148 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =wIWBrubUEFY And here is the devil and his mistress themselves... http://youtube.com/watch?v=AmK 2SWWGkBY | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1667 Registered: 10-2004 |
"So when our country has to import another 200,000 Asians and Indians for high tech jobs because enough of our privileged, upper class males can not fill the openings, I guess we can't complain about immigration or outsourcing anymore." The lack of expertise in science and engineering and the numbers of engineers and scientists in the US are more tied to general ignorance of an entire generation of Americans due primarily to the overall lowering of academic standards in private and public education in the US since the early/middle 1960s. The brighter Asians are some six years ahead of their American counterparts at US "high school" graduation because there are actual college prep education tracks available instead of the failed US "one-size-fits-all" "educate the 'students' to the lowest-common-denominator student (D level or lower)" versions here. AA or the lack of same won't have any effect in this regard with our crippled mindsets still in place concerning real academic standards. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 123 Registered: 08-2006 |
^^ ^^ I always say when some one says learn Spanish, its important as well as beneficial, I laugh. Learn Chinese instead, they will be the new Superpower in about 20 years or less. China is one big construction zone, the U.S had a restriction on how much steel and concrete the Chinese were buying. Look at the kids, look at the lifestyle. Its all about excelling and being number one..... Between India and China, I think their populations are about 2 billion, more or less, and the United States population is about 300 million........ One of us to 7 of them. Their birth rates are exploding. We are continuing to put out medo-ocre students, outsource our work, let illegals perform mundane tasks, as well as have the Govt foot the bill for 3 and 4th generation welfare families....... | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 927 Registered: 12-2005 |
Some may wish to research the history. I found this helpful: Wikipedia AA. Personally, I believe that stated goal has not yet been reached. When it has been reached, I will celebrate by enthusiastically voting yes. For now, unfortunately, I much continue to vote no. | ||
Commodore64 Member Username: Commodore64 Post Number: 238 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes! AA creates a divide. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1405 Registered: 11-2003 |
Will vote No. There are some reasonable arguments for voting Yes, but I'm with Jimaz that the stated goal of AA has not been reached yet. AA should not be in place indefinitely, though... I'd hope its goal has been reached to some reasonable degree sometime in the next 30-60 years. This type of change takes generations. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 929 Registered: 12-2005 |
I see AA as a polite challenge that the "power elite" will be capable of achieving genuine fairness and honor (hopefully before 60 years!). Competing while holding an unfair advantage is unsporting at best. At worst, it inhibits the greatest achievements of all. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 853 Registered: 01-2004 |
NO, wishing this was a world where there wasn't a need for A.A. It's amazing how in any technical job I've been the "minority" in, I always have to prove that I belong there twice as hard as anyone else does. When it comes to a black (or a woman for that matter) working in a technical position, the majority tends to question their abilities. Until the day comes where the majority can accept someone non status quo in the work enviornment, I don't see how anyone can say affirmative action isn't necessary . | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2006 |
Livernois, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. However, there are some really smart American citizens who are never given access to quality education, which can capitalize on their potential. I believe if there are programs designed to help these students achieve - whether they are black, white, male, female, or transgender - we should not outlaw the programs. All of us, as a country, need to pull together in order to compete against other countries with a highly educated labor pool. We have to stop with the tired, nonproductive "us against them" mentality and realize when one American CITIZEN wins in this global economy, we all win. | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 16 Registered: 09-2006 |
My sentiments exactly Tetsua | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1672 Registered: 10-2004 |
In a true zero-sum game, like admissions at the better colleges, giving preference to lesser applicants for whatever reasons literally screws over the better ones. What radiclibs confuse, quite frankly, is equal opportunity (work and study and get educated and receive good grades, for example) with equal outcomes--getting accepted for a job or college primarily because one is black and the other is Caucasian or Asian. These concepts are most often nowhere similar. It is simply unfair to reward those who squander and fritter away their opportunities. And in a few days, this new (older, actually) concept will be part and parcel of Michigan's laws. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 128 Registered: 03-2006 |
In California, a similar measure was passed a few years ago and graduation rates among minorities IMPROVED. It is pointless to put someone ahead when they scored lower on assessment tests only to have them flunk out when they find the curriculum is over their head. I know myself I would never make it through Harvard Law School, no shame in that. It isn’t as if folks who are “benefiting” from AA would not get into school, they would be admitted to another school that is more fitting given their abilities, just like everyone else. It does not make sense to remedy the supposed discrimination against a group of people by discriminating against others. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2005 |
Care to know how many times I have been called a white s&%t, a honkey, a cracker, white trash and a few other choice names that I wouldnt repeat from a black person in the city, Updidamkibopdb? I want to be the first to inform you then, that racism isnt only limited to whites. Its that way for all races, black, white, red, blue, yellow, muslim, catholic, jew ........and on and on and on. uh, there might be some racist blacks out there, but if you think the amount of racism toward whites comes anywhere NEAR the amount of racism (both expressed and unexpressed) toward blacks, Arabs and Muslims, you really need to get out of Commerce Township or Howell or whichever 99% white suburb you live in. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 327 Registered: 01-2005 |
Perfectgentleman: Because you can read and write English, you could make it through Harvard Law School (assuming you really want to be a lawyer.) Harvard is no more difficult than any other law school. Women's sports would not be eliminated by Prop 4. Neither would men's spots. (Does anyone think women's sports could be eliminated and not mens?) | ||
Kiplinger Member Username: Kiplinger Post Number: 45 Registered: 06-2006 |
Perfectgentleman - check your stats. The number of minorities applying to college significantly decreased so it seems implausible that the graduation numbers increased. Rhymeswithrawk - I couldn't agree more with you. Well said. If anyone thinks for one second that minorities and women have bridged the gap that AA was enacted to accomplish you aren't living in the real world. Talk to me when there is more than one African American US Senator. Talk to me when the US Cabinet is reflective of our 'melting pot'. While were on the subject of stats: From Mark Lowery's article in the Feb.1995 edition of Black Enterprise..... Ironically, while debates rage over continued need for affirmative action, statistics show that the perception that blacks made wholesale gains through affirmative-action programs is just an illusion. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, white males make up 9l.7% of officers in corporate America and 88.1% of directors. Their share of managerial and professional workers declined slightly between 1983 and 1993, from 55% to 47%, but the major benefactors of this decline were white women, who saw their share of such jobs increase from 37% to 42%. During those 10 years, blacks' share of managerial and professional positions rose minutely, from 6% to 7%. Not only are blacks the last to be hired, but apparently they are still the first workers to be downsized or fired. Blacks make up the only group of employees who suffered a net employment loss during the recession that began in July 1990 and ended in March 1991. There's a deep sourness in corporate America that they had to hire minority professionals," Wesley Poriotis, head of the New York-based minority search firm of Wesley, Brown & Bartle, said in a published report. "Downsizing has been their first opportunity to strike back." You can read the entire article here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/ articles/mi_m1365/is_n7_v25/ai _16552995 AA wasn't designed to be permanent but with the hope that it would help us develop into a society where it isn't needed. Clearly when the argument for voting 'yes' on Proposal 2 is that it is reverse discrimination, we are not even close to reaching the stated goal. Perhaps, that's what our focus should be so that AA will in a future day not be necessary. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 124 Registered: 08-2006 |
Then N.F.L, the N.B.A., and most sports organizations are equal opportunity employers, yet if memory serves me correctly, I dont see any 4 "5 Chinese basketball players, or any Eskimo foot ball players. I havent seen any women baseball players in the World Series, Seems to me, that when some one is hired to play football, basket ball, or baseball they are hired for their performance, not on quotas. I guess Affirmative Action works well , only in certain enviornments and not in others? Rhyme, you are wrong about your statement . Unless for some scientific reason, white peoples D.N.A has some type of " racial gene " we don't know about? | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3068 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thats ironic Janesback, because for the longest Blacks were barred from those sports. Now the sports are transformed. Same with the Military, then when natural competition occurs, you get Colin Powell's and others. I guess people are afraid of the competition? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1675 Registered: 10-2004 |
A certain candidate for Detroit mayor couldn't get elected primarily because he wasn't black enough. I suppose that shows that majority Detroiters aren't racially biased... | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3186 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah that's a real correlation to the argument at hand... | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1026 Registered: 01-2005 |
NO | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3189 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hmmmmm...the Chicago Tribune seems to recognize that there is still a need... But I forgot Illinois isn't as backwards as Michigan is.... http://www.chicagotribune.com/ news/opinion/chi-0611060199nov 06,1,4389599.story?coll=chi-op inionfront-hed | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 4870 Registered: 09-2005 |
But when Blacks emerge like Bill Cosby, Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas, Zulu * others call them "house slaves" etc. So much for transformation & natural competition. | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 135 Registered: 01-2004 |
No. I've already posted many of my opinions of this other thread: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/86506.html?1162856065 | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3191 Registered: 10-2003 |
That's funny I dont remember calling them any of that. Karl are you trying to warp reality to fit into your warped mind again... Don't worry...after tomorrow the hangover from the last few years party will be over... |
