  Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1677 Registered: 10-2003 |
Putting Harmonie's pieces together: Authority to buy landmark club in downtown district "A dozen years ago, the small downtown enclave known as Harmonie Park seemed poised to become one of Detroit's coolest centers of arts and entertainment. Then a mix of rising rents, failed investments, competition from other newly renovated areas and concerns about safety closed some Harmonie Park restaurants and galleries and forced several buildings into foreclosure. Now, the city's Downtown Development Authority has agreed to buy the district's centerpiece structure, the landmark but mostly vacant Harmonie Club, for $3.1 million. With the purchase agreement last week, the club became the fourth building in the district to be bought by the DDA in its bid to stabilize the area. "We just feel that we had to step in," George Jackson, president of the Detroit Economic Growth Corp. and Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick's chief development officer, said last week. "That district could really be hurt if it doesn't have proper ownership. And we have plenty of examples of what happens to property when you have owners who are not concerned with maintenance. That's the last thing we need, to have that happen in Harmonie Park. ..." http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20061105/BUSINES S04/611050587 | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 141 Registered: 05-2005 |
Parking, Parking, Parking....almost all of these have failed, because they don't have dedicated lots for office tenants/restaurants. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2006 |
Schervish Vogel Merz made a huge gamble when they acquired many of those harmonie park buildings (the harmonie club being one) back years ago when Detroit was not on the upswing that it is now. Undoubtedly, that is one of downtown Detroit's best potential niche areas. This is unfortunate, but that is just sometimes the way that real estate works. | ||
Tarkus Member Username: Tarkus Post Number: 136 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thats a bunch of hooeey,they have the new Opera House Garage right next door to them. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 310 Registered: 12-2003 |
yeah hooeey | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4120 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nothing at all to do with some bad management decisions. It is all parking. (Message edited by jams on November 05, 2006) | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 882 Registered: 11-2003 |
and on NON game days, parking is $5...PLENTY of secure parking @ the Opera House | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2199 Registered: 02-2005 |
parking is the worst excuse of all time when it comes to downtown Detroit development. I don't wanna hear it. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2006 |
Actually I spent several minutes this afternoon driving around in circles - down one way streets - trying to find some parking downtown just so that I could eat pancakes! I'm sorry, but I don't have that problem when I go to IHOP. I don't go to the downtown Royal Oak Starbucks anymore for exactly the same reason. Whether you want to hear it is irrelevant. Parking DOES matter. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 162 Registered: 01-2005 |
not only is the opera house parking garage there,there are also 3 different parking lots(secure) right next to harmonie park. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 615 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yvette, your problem was that you attempted this during a Lions home game. However, I suspect you didn't look nearly hard enough. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 883 Registered: 11-2003 |
There is plenty of parking, typically, people want to park on the street and not pay.Quit crying and park in the PARKING STRUCTURES | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 319 Registered: 01-2005 |
Charlottepaul: SVM did not make the "huge gamble." The DEGC did. They're idiots. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 170 Registered: 08-2006 |
Walk 3 blocks! Oh my god. That's cardio exercise that may involve perspiration? No way can I handle that. If there isn't a spot right in front of the door forget about it. | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2003 |
I used to get all worked up about parking in Detroit (and the burbs) before I moved to Europe. There is NO parking here. And if there is, it is VERY expensive and/or scarce. I now walk a half mile to the city center sometimes to get coffee. It is a LIFE CHANGE that was needed. Park a few blocks away and walk it, your heart will love you for it. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 617 Registered: 02-2006 |
Europe nothin, I live in Chicago and walk just over a mile every day to take Metra, despite the fact that the CTA is 1.5 blocks away. Why? It's faster and runs on schedule much more often. I enjoy the walk, it helps me wake up in the morning, and de-stress in the evening. Including my 20 minute walk (if I'm just strolling), it takes me 31 minutes to get to/from work. If I can bike, the whole trip downtown takes 16 minutes. I challenge many Detroiters averse to the "inconvenience" of walking to describe how far 16 minutes in a car gets them in their commute. (not necessarily anyone on this board, just in general) (Message edited by focusonthed on November 06, 2006) | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 320 Registered: 01-2005 |
Doesn't anyone care that the DEGC has pissed away another $8 million to acquire those buildings? On top of $10 million already invested? Where do you people think the money is coming from? US. You and I. Tax dollars. That idiot George Jackson (who in his former life was a mid-level DTE employee) thinks he can outperform the marketplace, the implication being that developers who might have purchased the buildings at the foreclosure sales or from the lenders (for a lot less than the DEGC paid) would not know what to do with them. Jackson thinks it's important to keep "control" of the area. So he'll just end up marketing the buildings to developers with connections to the City, for huge amounts less than the City has invested. And, if the buildings went down the tubes for lack of parking, what remedy is available to the DEGC to correct the problem? RIGHT, MORE PARKING DECKS. You all would love that, I'm sure. And at what cost? Where? (Well, tear down a couple of the buildings, I guess.) The way this City does business is a crime. Maybe, literally. Talk with any responsible developers and they'll laugh at this deal. Disgusting. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2899 Registered: 10-2003 |
3rdworld', but the quote of Jackson was that the property would have fallen into disrepair if the city DIDN'T step in. This implies that the city was forced to bail out a property owner who was threatening to let his property go to shit dragging down the entire area. I don't particularly buy this but if it is this true the blame isn't solely on the city. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1838 Registered: 11-2004 |
Are you mad that they didn't buy your building, or give you some money? Clearly waiting for individual developers to pull it together downtown is yielding great results. (Message edited by dialh4hipster on November 06, 2006) | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2006 |
This isn't Chicago or Europe or anyplace else where people have been forced to use public transportation. This is the Motor City and, illogical or not, we feel about our cars the way the NRA feels about their guns: "FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!" | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 322 Registered: 01-2005 |
Rustic: Nobody would have bought those properties and permitted them to fall into disrepair. That's just Jackson's nonsense excuse. Had it not been for the DEGC the lenders would have bid in at the sale and would then have sold the properties on the open market. Did you ever hear of anyone buying real estate for the purpose of letting it go into disrepair. A dollar doesn't care who owns it, but I'll bet my money on a guy who's using his own money, not a George Jackson using mine. I stand by my post. Dial4: You're damn right I'm sorry I don't own anything that George Jackson might think the City could do better owning it than I can. I wish I owned some swampland somewhere that piqued his interest. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7072 Registered: 10-2003 |
Uh, it's my understanding that you do. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 178 Registered: 11-2003 |
I know for a fact that a few of those buildings DEGC just bought have been for sale for a while. They ran for sale ads in Crain's for the Harmonie Club building and others in Harmonie Park but I do not recall the realtor they were listed under. They went into foreclosure because there was not a buyer for them. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 324 Registered: 01-2005 |
Rjlj: They went into foreclosure because there was not a buyer for them AT THE PRICE NECESSARY TO PAY OFF THE MORTGAGE. What does that tell you about the DEGC's genius investment? George Jackson must think he can wave his magic wand and change the market. (He's probably practicing on changing lead into gold.) Itsjeff: Uh, you're wrong. That is, unless you know something I don't. Improbable. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7073 Registered: 10-2003 |
Actually, it was probable that I knew the City still owned the GAR and that the majority of the downtown business owners supported a BID scheme, both contrary to your assertions. But anyhoo, every time a soup is mentioned, you tend to foam at the mouth. Is it the very concept of the DDA to which you object, or Jackson specifically? | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 619 Registered: 11-2003 |
It's very difficult to see where SVM put all the money it borrowed on its Harmonie Park buildings. Yes, there was stabilization done and some basic plumbing and electrical upgrades. But for years they have been seeking rates that rival Class A space when the space they were offering was still very rough and ill suited for most modern office uses. The kind of tenants who might be interested in Harmonie Park are going to be the smaller and newer firms who don't have the cash reserves or borrowing ability to pay for $250-$500K build-outs. They should have built some Class B type suites on spec for small firms to move right in. Get some tenants and get some cash flow. Instead it seems like they were always waiting for the big score. One other thing. The LLCs that own the buildings and which are in default on the loans may be insolvent, but you can bet that the SVM partners have done just fine. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 325 Registered: 01-2005 |
Itsjeff: "Soup?" What does a BID have to do w/ anything? The last I heard the one they proposed 2 or 3 years ago was soundly defeated. And, what's the GAR building have to do w/ this thread? I'm sure there must be some things you know that I don't but you sure as hell don't know more about my assets than I do; that's what we were talking about. Get a life. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 326 Registered: 01-2005 |
P.S. Itsjeff: To answer your question, BOTH. And the DEGC. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7074 Registered: 10-2003 |
3rdy, you were pontificating earlier when you said, Itsjeff: Uh, you're wrong. That is, unless you know something I don't. Improbable. That's why I mentioned your previous errors. You said that the majority of downtown building owners did not support a BID. In fact, you repeated that falsehood just now when you said it was "soundly defeated." In fact, the majority of landowners did vote for the BID, just not the super-majority needed to pass it. You also said, repeatedly, that the Ilitches owned the GAR when, in fact, they didn't. This forum has lots of bad info floating about and I normally let it go. However, you pass yourself off as an expert in downtown real estate. So when you say something in error, and then state that it's "improbable" that someone knows something that you don't, there's nothing wrong with keeping you in check. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7075 Registered: 10-2003 |
That said, your position on eminent domain is spot on. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1878 Registered: 07-2004 |
Coming from a real estate mogul wannabe, I find it curious that the article talks about Harmonie Park as being a mixed-use area, yet nothing is mentioned about residential use. Maybe the missing link to this area is bringing in residential projects. Every time I see the former Dell Pryor Gallery Building I see a residential loft with a first floor garage and two upper residential floors. Then to the immediate north of that building I see a row of Chicago-style townhomes lining the street where there is currently a surface parking lot. I can envision a six to ten story parking structure behind the Music Hall along Brush to make up for the parking spaces lost by the townhomes. I have never been in the Harmonie Building. Does it have the potential to be converted into condos/lofts? If it does, then it would be a great building to live in. The lot where the Madison-Lenox used to be would be ideal for residential parking. A two to three story parking structure could satisfy the need for both residential and event parking. Better yet, why not build a "skylofts" type building like the one on Main Street in Royal Oak. I know Ilitch owns the lot but maybe something could be worked out. Finally, I think something has to be done with the parking lot between the Harvard Square Building and the corner building owned/controlled by Jean Nash. A three or four story parking structure could serve both residential and event needs in that location. BTW, wouldn't a surface parking lot owner make more money in the long run if he/she builds a parking structure on their lot? More spaces, more money? (Message edited by royce on November 07, 2006) | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 758 Registered: 10-2003 |
Swingline hit the nail on the head.
The problem has nothing to do with parking. Harmonie Park has an excess of parking, and the cost of parking in Harmonie Park is much lower than most other areas of downtown. The new Opera House Garage offers some of the cheapest downtown parking for $65 per month. Most downtown garages charge well over $100 per month for a parking space. As Swingline noted, the real problem was that SVM was charging Class A rates for Class B space. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4666 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, parking may be an excuse for some areas of downtown, but in this area in particular it REALLY doesn't make since. There is a huge lot right off of Harmonie Park, not to mention the many surface lots within walking distance. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3037 Registered: 08-2004 |
Royce, I was in the Harmonie Club in the 1970's when it was still a social club. It's a great place. There's a 2 story ballroom on one of the upper floors (with a railing around the upper floor that looks down upon the main ballroom floor). The Harmonie Club also had a bowling alley in the basement. I could see the Harmonie Club building more as a banqueting facility or restaurant or night club, than to see it be subdivided into lofts/condos. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7082 Registered: 10-2003 |
Did you ever hear of anyone buying real estate for the purpose of letting it go into disrepair. Sorry I missed this earlier. Here you go: Michael Higgins Olympia "Development" Ralph Sachs Peter Adamo Howard Schwartz Paul Curtis The Moon family Dennis K of Boydell Group...all well known downtown speculators with significant properties that have not been improved. Even the Becker Group is inadvertently getting in to the action with homeless folks now taking up residence in the David Whitney Even the self proclaimed saviours of downtown like Tony Pieroni don't make investments. (He's the guy who has publicly claimed he sees no value in investing in or improving his properties, while duplicitously bragging about how much he has invested when close examination of the "investments" turns out to be nothing more than routine upgrades and maintenance to avoid constructive eviction of his tenants. Hardly "investment." So yes, there is a long and deep history of speculation on buildings resulting in their non repair in the CBD that is enabled by the Headlee Amendment. Perhaps Jackson has a right to be cautious. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 329 Registered: 01-2005 |
Ij: Well now. You say that all the folks you mentioned above actually bought real estate for the purpose of letting it go into disrepair. WOW. They must be brilliant investors, right. I've never seen a more nonsensical conclusion. Tell you what. I'm going to make you a suggestion which is not anatomically impossible. Here's how you can make some money. Take your hugh profits from dabbling in downtown Detroit real estate (that's how you make your living, right, you expert you?), go to Vegas, and get into some cash games w/ guys like Doyle Brunson. Teach them the hard way what playing poker's all about. Right up your alley. Sure, there's a lot of people who for possibly many reasons won't or can't maintain their real estate. It's extremely difficult to do that in downtown Detroit (but w/ your real estate finance background you're well aware of that, aren't you?) Anyway, I've never heard of anyone buying real estate for the purpose of letting it go into disrepair. Neither have you. An aside. My response to another one of your comments on on another thread somewhere: I am not a pontificator. I enlighten. See the light.) | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1695 Registered: 06-2004 |
I would agree with you in general terms, TWC, but jeff still makes a point on your original post which suggested this...
...seeing as how all the property owners jeff cited have done just that thing. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2003 |
You can't maintain a property when no one is willing to rent from you or live there, hence the downward cycle of Downtown Detroit. You would not let your home fall into disrepair if you had the money to keep it up, correct? You have no idea, things are different when your actually in the game. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7091 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thank you, Captain Obvious. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 332 Registered: 01-2005 |
llyn: I was responding to Ij's 11/7, 3:48 P.M. post, which questions a different quote than mine to Rustic. My point, in response to Ij's dig, is that no one buys real estate for the PURPOSE of permitting it to go into disrepair, as Ij alleged his people did. I addressed the issue about disrepair occurring over time; obviously, that happens. But never on purpose in my experience. I don't know most of the people named by Ij but the couple that I have heard of bought properties "cheaply" (or so they thought) and were unable to turn them around. The greater fool theory at work. No one (except DEGC) was going to buy the Harmonie Park real estate from the lenders for the amount of the underlying debt. The properties would have gone for less but for enough money that purchasers would have to be pretty sophisticated and know what they were doing. The greater fool theory of real estate works more frequently than one might think, but I doubt it for the Harmonie Park stuff. | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1698 Registered: 06-2004 |
Sorry, i... (laugh)... I just can't... (gasp)... help myself... | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7093 Registered: 10-2003 |
That was directed at Rjlj, not you, Llyn. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 186 Registered: 11-2003 |
Obvious yes, but not to everyone who is so critical of property owners. I am sick of people being so critical when they have no idea what is involved with owning property downtown. | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1700 Registered: 06-2004 |
Yes, I got that. Although, as a child, while others wanted to be Spiderman or Captain Kirk or Abbie Hoffman... I always dreamt of being Captain Obvious! | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7094 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rj, owning real estate isn't some mystical Masonic rite that only a chosen few can understand. Of course owning real estate is hard. That's why only people who know what they're doing - and have sufficient capital - should do it. People who buy property then don't have the resources to maintain it are absolutely worthy of criticism. For some reason you and 3rdy feel the need to carry water for these bums. You should reconsider. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3053 Registered: 08-2004 |
Sometimes people do have the resources to fix it up, but don't. Take Mike Ilitch. He purchased the Adams Theatre in the early 1990's after CAY had it closed down due to gunplay inside. Ilitch purchased a WORKING theatre, and then did absolutely nothing with it. Katheryn Clarkson, former Preservation Wayne Executive Director remembered being inside the Adams about 8 years ago. She knew that the roof was a mess, but when she viewed the auditorium she was wondering why it looked so fuzzy, until she realized that there was 2 inches of mold (from a leaky roof) covering most of the interior seating. And the plasterwork was in near total ruin. Also Ilitch got the United Artists Theatre from the now famous Barden-to-City-to-Ilitch transaction. When Barden (and David Grossman before him) had it, the UA Theatre was still relatively intact (and secured), although in rough shape. But since Ilitch has owned it, not only has it gotten worse with water damage, but scavengers have carted off much of the interior ornate plasterwork, including all of the great Indian Maiden busts. Even when some Preservation Wayne members contacted Ilitch Holdings about how unsecure the UA was, it fell on deaf ears... until of course when the Super Bowl came to town. If you ask me, the Ilitch's neglect, made public in the cover of last fall's National Trust Magazine (showing the United Artists Building with painted windows), was well deserved "Schadenfreude"! Only recently, with the ascendancy of downtown (and with others complaints) have things improved for Ilitch Holdings properties, at least the ones that are still here. (Message edited by Gistok on November 09, 2006) |
