  Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5180 Registered: 02-2004 |
Here's the source to prove it: News bulletin Affirmative action ban OK'd Michigan 3rd state to nix preferential treatment November 8, 2006 Email this Print this BY SUZETTE HACKNEY FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER Jennifer Gratz, executive director of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, greets supporters Tuesday at a party at the Marriott in East Lansing. Gratz was the University of Michigan applicant in 1995 who was placed on a waiting list and later spurred a case heard by the Supreme Court. (KATHLEEN GALLIGAN/Detroit Free Press) Related articles: • Effects of affirmative action ban will depend on the courts' take Michigan voters sent a clear message about affirmative action programs that offer preferences to women and minorities: It's time for them to end. Election Day numbers Tuesday showed the controversial proposal winning by a wide margin. Michigan becomes the third state to outlaw giving preferential treatment to groups or individuals based on their race, gender, color, ethnicity or national origin for public employment, education or contracting purposes. With 99 percent of precincts reporting, 58%, or 2,129,506 people, voted yes on Proposal 2 and 42%, or 1,538,520 voters, opposed it. Fran Smeak, 80, a registered Republican from Birmingham, said she read the pros and cons for the five ballot proposals, but Proposal 2 was the hardest to make a decision about. In the end, she voted for the ban. "I can see how some people would feel like if they did not get extra help, they would not make it," she said Tuesday. "My overall view is that if everyone is on the same basis, then they should all get fairly treated." The proposal was largely prompted by a 2003 U.S. Supreme Court decision that upheld a general affirmative action admissions policy at the University of Michigan's law school but struck down the undergraduate admission formula as too unyielding because it awarded points based on race. U-M is the only university in the state that uses affirmative action to a great extent in admissions, but all public colleges and universities would have to reevaluate their outreach, scholarship and grant awards if they benefit gender or racial or ethnic groups. Programs that target specific groups in K-12 schools also would be affected. Jennifer Gratz, the U-M applicant in 1995 who was wait-listed and later spurred the case heard by the Supreme Court, served as the executive director of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, sponsor of the proposal. "I am excited and hopeful that Michigan will finally be a place of equal opportunity for all," Gratz said Tuesday. "The people of Michigan are the ones who have won today. They stood up to big business, big labor, to the entire establishment and said, 'We want to be treated equally.' " According to a poll of voters conducted by Mitchell Research and Communications Inc. of East Lansing, voters under age 40 were the only group to oppose the measure in significant numbers on Tuesday. Men overwhelmingly supported the ban; women narrowly opposed it. Democrats opposed it while Republicans and independents favored it. Black voters strongly opposed the proposition, but it was passing among white voters. Both Democrats and a majority of Republican leaders spoke out against Proposal 2. A coalition of 200 business, religious, labor, education and government officials and others also worked to defeat MCRI, which was backed by Ward Connerly, a former University of California regent. Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick said Proposal 2 was the single biggest issue in the election, one that would shape Michigan's economy for years. He said the campaign against it got off to a slow start because of lack of money. One United Michigan raised about $3.4 million to oppose the measure. David Waymire, spokesman for One United Michigan, said Michigan politicians now have the costly task of trying to figure out how to bring equal opportunity to all. "It's up to the leaders to step up and try to overcome this," he said. Michelle Crockett, an attorney with Miller Canfield in Detroit, said Proposal 2 will be challenged with lawsuits. "This is not the end of it, even though it may win tonight. It's going to be in the court for a long time to come," Crockett said. Contact SUZETTE HACKNEY at 313-222-6614 or shackney@freepress.com. Staff writers Marisol Bello and Tina Lam contributed to this report. Email this Print this Post a Comment View All Comments ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- Actually, Granholm received 56 % of the vote, so only 56% of your fellow Michiganders are misinformed Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:07 am ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- I'm not surprised that this measure passed. 57% of my fellow Michiganders are largely uninformed and/or misinformed on this issue although they claim that they are informed. Yes, we SHOULD be chosen for positions based upon our merit and not our color, ethnicity, nationality, race, gender etc. HOWEVER, that is NOT what was happening BEFORE Affirmative Action came to this state, it did NOT happen when it was here and it certainly is not happening, obviously, without it. Under my maiden name, I can't tell you how many times when I went in for an interview, the interviewer was SURPRISED to see that I was African-American. How do I know? They TOLD ME. So if you think that perons with ethnic names, weather they are of African, Middle Eastern, Indian, Native American, etc in nature are going to have a fair shake, be on a level playing field, then you are GROSSLEY misinformed. Those of you who supported passage of this proposal PLEASE understand this. The reason why Affirmative Action was enacted in the first place was because of JIM CROW laws, POLL TAXES, LITERACY TAXES, the need for the SUFFERAGE MOVEMENT etc. We may have all been created equal but those movements made us unequal. Those measures, of which JIM CROW is still alive and well, were/are the reason why Affirmative Action was created. I ask those of you who voted to support this measure the following: 1) Do you know the impact that this will have on breast cancer screenings for BOTH women and men? 2) Do you know the impact that this will have on cervical cancer screenings and treatment? 3) Do you know the impact this will have on prostate cancer screening and treatment? I know. I suggest that you find out. The first place you should check is California which is where your "advisor" orginated this measure from. Those of you who want to leave the state because this proposal passed- DON'T. That is what part of the plan is. If we're not here to fight, then they have not only won the battle, but they have also won the war. It's funny to me that many of you who support this are not signing your name. You may hide under the guise that it is not anyone's business what your name is, but when someone has a point to make, my ancestory brought me up to stand on your word and not hide behind it. Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:03 am ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- People are tired of minorities crying "wolf" when we don't get our way. Well, isn't that what spoiled brat Jennifer Gratz did? She didn't get her way and instead of accepting it and moving on, she decided to back a measure to end affirmative action. She went to Southgate schools for goodness sake, what did she expect?? It's not like she graduated from Grosse Pointe or Bloomfield schools. Not getting what we want is part of life. I feel sorry for her and her sense of entitlement. There will be alot of disappointments in her life. Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:02 am ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- I am a 40+ white male, and yes I voted for Proposal 2. I am delighted my tax dollars will no longer be spent on State sponsored discrimination. Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:00 am ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- first i would like to say that the program was and is a good one because without it the so called underclass would not have made any progress. people act like they go to the hood and pick the person that has no college degree to run a company because they are black and the company has to meet the quota. they may pick a black person but believe it is a educated person so people stop thinking they are picking so one who is not qualified for the job. I think the devil is in full force another attempt to hold us down. the man is going to help the man. i dont care if there is a qualified minority for the position they will not let him in based on race alone. i am not speaking for everyone but that has got to stop. the hate has got to stop. woman if you think this helps you it does not a man is gonna work with a man when it comes to corp/law/eng positions the only job you will get now is sec and probably just for sex. so please the program did help and now it's gonna hurt our so called underclass. god will have the last word for the haters. The Ghettoman and his Street Prophets are very proud that Affirmative Action Programs by means of race and gender in Michigan is GONE FOREVER!! Now perhaps everyone should treat Affirmative Action programs to put a cap on talent rather than playing the race card. I'm about to go celebrate with the Ghettoman and my Street Prophet friends. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 564 Registered: 08-2005 |
When this measure passed in California 10 years ago, California's universities simply made slight alterations to their affirmative action policies. Can anyone say that California's universities are any less diverse than they were 10 years ago? Say hello to SES-based Affirmative Action, which will help black people who need it but won't ignore poor people of white, Asian, and Arabic heritage (Asians and Middle Easterners are considered "over-represented minorities" and thus do not qualify under most AA programs). | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 127 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "Under my maiden name," At first I thought Danny was a shemale, then I reread the thread and realized that wasn't the case. I hope. In case you're not aware, the blacks in the colleges are mainly from the Cariban and transplants from Africa, at least the colleges that have admission standards. Native born blacks aren't highly represented. The "acting white" thing tends to limit their chances. The first time I heard what acting white was about, I thought, they don't have a chance. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2314 Registered: 11-2003 |
Based on the feedback that I'm hearing from other sources this morning, I'd say that there are a lot of racists out there who are very sore losers this morning. Waiting to see what the BAMN crown, er, whatever the anti-Prop 2 group is calling themselves this week, is going to do in the wake of their defeat. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 330 Registered: 06-2006 |
Just for the purposes of accuracy in reporting, Affirmative Action programs that discriminate based on race will still continue to exist in the arena of private employment, such as the Big 3, | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1683 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Waiting to see what the BAMN crown, er, whatever the anti-Prop 2 group is calling themselves this week, is going to do in the wake of their defeat." Frank Beckmann on his WJR show this morning stated that he had knowledge that the (communist, his word) BAMN crowd was shunned by the major Democrat campaigns after their focus groups determined that BAMN would hurt their campaign efforts. So, obviously, the Dems' media support took notice and would not take the added effort to follow or promote BAMN, as they previously did. In other words, BAMN was simply ignored. TV cameras from one or more stations just do not happen to be conveniently omnipresent. BAMN was virtually silenced from all quarters. | ||
Chow Member Username: Chow Post Number: 318 Registered: 10-2003 |
Now the playing field is level for all of us white men. Too long have we been held back from prestigious jobs and university enrollment. Now we have a fair fight against the favored minorities and women. EQUALITY NOW. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 332 Registered: 06-2006 |
Chow: Things have been great for white men in general, but they suck for the white men and women who come from the same underprivileged backgound as many minorities...they get no help from the system because of their skin color AA in it's old form in MI allowed these underprivileged non-minorities to slip through the cracks of the system... AA in it's new form in MI will award these individuals the same chance to claw their way out of the gutter as underprivileged minorities (Message edited by thejesus on November 08, 2006) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2203 Registered: 02-2005 |
Exactly Warriorfan. The best thing is that wealthy minorities who have actually had every advantage in the world will no longer get a huge advantage simply because of their color; or (and I've heard this one more lately) mixed-race people who basically look white and have never experienced any discrimination will not get a nod just because of what is in thier blood. Affirmative action can still exist, just without the race. It will be fairer to all. We all want diversity, and universities/institutions will just have to work harder so that they can achieve it through legitimate means, not by socially engineering their student body and telling qualified white or Asian students that there are "enough" of them already. Now, warriorfan you did suggest that UC is still as diverse as before their prop. 209 passed. I've studied this quite a bit. UCLA and UC-Berkley lost a lot of African-American enrollment, and it was due to the admission rate dropping from near 50 percent under race-preferences to 10-12 percent. The UC leadership has worked hard to expand the pool of qualified black and Hispanic applicants, in order to achieve legitimate diversity. These days the admissions rates are closer to 20 percent, really not too far off from the admissions rates for everyone else at those prestigious universities. At all the UC campuses combined, I will note, more underrepresented minorities are leaving with degrees in hand than before affirmative action was banned. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1233 Registered: 11-2003 |
"I see your true colors, shining through..." | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 315 Registered: 12-2003 |
MOre Cindy Lauper Fans!!!!! Good enough, for you its, GOOD ENOUGH!! | ||
Toog05 Member Username: Toog05 Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2006 |
Here is one of the many examples of why I did not support Prop. 2. If there are 6,000 spots open for a freshman class at a university, and 10,000 apply in all, and out of that 10,000, approximately 1,500 are minorities. Then very well many minorities might get passed up because they might be at the end of the pile of apps. and is never considered in the first place, because positions are already taken up. This is only an example, and may or may not affect what really happens. I think that affimative action made sure that everybody in the pile was looked at minorities were made sured to be looked at just like the majority. I think population is a factor because minorities is the minority of the population, the majority get more opportunities as a whole solely based on the large percentage of people they make up. Also that does not include anything bias or racist that may limit minorities and also women for that manner in certain cases. This is still a racist and unfair country at times, and I would dare not say that everything and everybody is equal because it is not true and never will be. Even with affirmative action, everything was not fair, yes it did help, made some improvement, but things were still not equal. There are alot of qualified minorities and women out there who is hit with a glass escalator and can not advance to the top simply because they are women or minority and thats simply the truth. Yes affirmative action seems to be unequal, but it works towards a solution for all in my opinion. Minorities are not given special opportunities because of affirmative action, minorities is getting looked at and considered because of affirmative action. It does not mean that minorities are getting accepted to everything and getting everything that they want. The majority has always been looked at since the start of this country because they are simply the majority. You can pass up on a majority person because their are too many of them, however it is not the same to minorities, they are scattered all over the place. I just believe that if population percentages among race was relatively the same then, I think equality will come more naturally. Without affirmative action, we can not achieve diversity in our schools or businesses, therefore they are losing out on different ways of thinking about things, different ways of doings things, because it will be one race and not many. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 394 Registered: 06-2005 |
"At all the UC campuses combined, I will note, more underrepresented minorities are leaving with degrees in hand than before affirmative action was banned." Mackinaw, Do you have a link for this? Throughout the entire Prop 2 argument I was surprised that the graduation rate of students admitted under AA was not considered an issue. Now that AA isn't an option I'm eager to see what changes our state universities will consider for next year's admissions. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1210 Registered: 01-2004 |
This measure does not ban or end Affirmative Action by the way. It only prevents State institutions from participating. The private sector is still AA EOE. And now I am going to reapply to several universities and community colleges for a job. Sorry. | ||
Toog05 Member Username: Toog05 Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2006 |
Good point Mauser, but what do you think institutions are going to do. If the majority of michiganians(sp?) voted to ban affirmative action. Then the majority (most) of instituitions, which is headed by the MAJORITY population, would disagree with affirmative action too. Therefore we are now going in the opposite direction towards a solution, we are going back in time, instead of forward. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2006 |
Doesn't matter. With Democrats now firmly in control again (locally and nationally), more policies will be developed that promote fairness for all people. Death to the right-wing, one party system!!!!! | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 173 Registered: 08-2006 |
Even though the affirmative action ban will now be in place there are forms of discrimination and preferential treatment that will still exist. Universities and colleges will continue to admit students based on legacy and will also admit athletes at lower academic standards compared to the rest of the freshmen class. Also, while the affirmative action ban has been approved there will almost certainly be a new system put in its place to level the playing field and it will most likely be worse then what we just voted out. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 133 Registered: 10-2006 |
Mackinaw, I can appreciate your sentiments. But if it's based on merit, the blacks and hispanics won't have a chance. I've been watching this in Cali for the last 30 years. You base it on economic factors, it's all asians and white trash. You want to change the system? It's K thru 12 baby. You don't make up for 12 years of screwing around in one year. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2204 Registered: 02-2005 |
Johnny5, I will paste that link here later today. I've got classes for awhile, and then have to find the websites. Check back here tonight. I agree Fortress_warren--now that we have removed the preferences (which were illegal under the Equal Protection Act, anyways) we can address issues like inner-city K-12 and try to expand the pool of qualified minorities. In the end I think this forces the hand of Detroit Public Schools--if we want diversity, we'll have to make DPS and other inner cities better. (Message edited by mackinaw on November 08, 2006) | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2006 |
From Bamn.com (By Any Means Necessary) Rally at 9:00AM in front of US Supreme Court East Capitol & First Followed by march Full itinerary to come On Monday, December 4, 2006, civil rights activists from across the nation will march and rally at the U.S. Supreme Court when oral arguments are heard in two lawsuits which seek to bar any and all measures that promote racial integration and equal opportunity in American education. The ruling in these cases, Meredith v. Jefferson County Public Schools and Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District, will determine whether or not measures to desegregate K-12 public schools, as well as affirmative action programs for higher education, remain legal. This is the fight of our lifetime. Everyone who cares about equality and freedom needs to be in DC on December 4th. The Court's ruling in these cases will be based on political, not just legal considerations. This means that we must have a social and political response to affect the outcome of these lawsuits. The Latino/a communities and youth who gave birth to the new civil rights movement in the struggle for immigrant rights last spring showed that when we stand together and fight, we win. These cases will be remembered as the turning point in our nation's history, when it was decided whether equality and integration would remain on the American agenda, or we would return to a period of segregation enforced by law. Put plainly, this Supreme Court will decide whether to stand on its most seminal decision, Brown v. Board of Education, or return to Plessy v. Ferguson's notorious legal fiction of 'separate but equal'. They will also determine whether the Court's 2003 ruling upholding affirmative action programs is upheld. BAMN, The Coalition to Defend Affirmative Action, Integration and Immigrant Rights and Fight for Equality By Any Means Necessary - the organization that spearheaded the 2003 March on Washington to Defend Affirmative Action and Save Brown v. Board of Education - is leading the organizing effort. Student and youth-led mobilization committees have been built in Los Angeles, the Bay Area, Seattle, Detroit, and Louisville and are forming throughout the country. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2006 |
Mackinaw, how do you think they'll accomplish getting educated? We had bi-lingual ed for years out here. Got rid of it 6 years ago, hispanics thrived. How do you get rid of the educational establishment? | ||
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2005 |
"Death to the right-wing, one party system!!!!!" And replace it with a left-wing one party system!!!! (?) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 285 Registered: 08-2006 |
I dunno Mackinaw, given the chance to vote on it, we single handedly voted down affirmative action and more money for our school systems (prop 5). How are we supposed to make Detroit schools better if no one wants to pay for it? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1685 Registered: 10-2004 |
The schools in DPS are already funded some three times greater per student than in 1960 in constant dollars. When are the Dummkopfs going to realize it's not about money? Instead it's poor parenting, lousy, lazy "students" and peer pressure, keeping many incompetent teachers around, inept administration, and lastly, but also very important, decades of corruption and cronyism. More money simply means rewarding all of the above. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 08, 2006) | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 155 Registered: 07-2005 |
We pay plenty for our schools. Money isn't the issue. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 286 Registered: 08-2006 |
I guess I shouldn't be too pissed, my choice for governor was honored, and I see most of the country got tired of "Staying the course". But honestly, blaming all the problems in large poor cities on the residents who are the way they are because of years of our divestment from those areas offers no solution. We can't expect those school systems to be houses of miracles, there are disparities all over the area in pupil funding. Why does Madison Heights have two school districts, one funded at 7500 / pupil, the other at 12000 / pupil? Same story in Redford Union and South Redford. I admit I did not like the ballot language about covering pensions either, but prop 5 had so much more good going for it than that. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Acting white". Until the black underclass "gets it", nothing will change........ Wish that wasn't the case. I would like nothing better than the underclass getting with the program. Just think what would be possible; Trainman could get his mass transit. Plus we could get rid of the whole poverty "pimp" network that is the goobermint. Lower taxes; more roads. Is that 99 Mile Road over the dashboard? | ||
Alsodave Member Username: Alsodave Post Number: 770 Registered: 10-2003 |
So, the "black underclass" "getting it" is going to change the dominant culture's attitudes? That's all it will take for the folks up on 99 Mile Road to move back to or support the city?
Whose program? | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2006 |
The middle class program. If you got the dollars, nothing else matters. You can do what you want.It's not a racial issue. Why do you think the black middle class is moving to Fortress Warren? There are five black families living on the street I grew up on; there were 800 non-whites in Warren in 1960. One of which was my college roommate. Two years, so I had a choice. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 287 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yep, They walk among us, AND reproduce I couldn't find my luggage at the airport baggage area. So I went to the lost luggage office and told the woman there that my bags never showed up. She smiled and told me not to worry because she was a trained professional and I was in good hands. "Now," she asked me, "Has your plane arrived yet?" They Walk Among Us... | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2006 |
Cambrian, you have enough money to fly?????? The world is upside down. I don't fly, I always puke. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 288 Registered: 08-2006 |
No, from a series of e-mail jokes, I was going to segway into the lady at the airport was wearing a yes on 2 button, but forgot, damn! Just introducing some levity to the situation. Here's another: They Walk Among Us! Some guy bought a new fridge for his house. To get rid of his old fridge, he put it in his front yard and hung a sign on it saying: "Free to good home. You want it, you take it." For three days the fridge sat there without even one person looking twice at it. He eventually decided that people were too un-trusting of this deal. It looked to good to be true, so he changed the sign to read: "Fridge for sale $50." The next day someone stole it. Caution..They Walk Among Us... | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1569 Registered: 12-2003 |
University of Michigan is not going down without a fight, they are prepared to possibly challenge this. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1687 Registered: 10-2004 |
"University of Michigan is not going down without a fight, they are prepared to possibly challenge this." And pass on their legal costs as they did when fighting the AA reformers before--on their students and the taxpayers. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 289 Registered: 08-2006 |
That is interesting about U of M. What's their stake in affirmative action? They get the money regardless if its white kids or black kids attending. Regardless, if it's true good for them. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 333 Registered: 06-2006 |
there's nothing to challenge...on what groundd could you possibly challenge this? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1688 Registered: 10-2004 |
"there's nothing to challenge...on what groundd could you possibly challenge this?" On the elitist grounds that the great unwashed masses throughout the state are just plain stupid and ignorant and that the UM should rule unabated instead as their regents. That's a pretty obvious attitude on their sacred ground in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 650 Registered: 10-2003 |
So the story goes like this: My friend works hard to get the grades to get into U of M and his father works hard to get the money to send him there. U of M passes him over for a more diverse candidate with lesser qualifications. The lesser candidate has the entire ride paid for. End result, my friend is screwed twice: 1) Losing the opportunity to go to the school that he had the greater qualifications for and 2) Being forced to pay for the guy who took his place with his tax dollars. Screw affirmative action. May it's death remain eternal! | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 290 Registered: 08-2006 |
I gotta ask as I never had the resources or grades to get into U of M. For those that attended school there, how many people in a given class were minorities? I suspect a small number, and the majority, even when affirmative action was the law of the land, was rich white kids. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1690 Registered: 10-2004 |
If anybody ever gets on the better campuses such as UM, MSU, UW, etc. (purposely omitted WSU), he will witness that a significantly large percentage of their students, especially grads, are from out of state or from out of this country. These three universities, among others, have relied similarly upon foreigners for a stiff percentage of their profs and RA/TAs the past three decades, especially in their areas of renown and expertise. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 08, 2006) | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2006 |
When I was in Mosher-Jordan, a black guy was telling something that was off the wall, I said "Boy, that's crazy", his response was, " don't call me boy". Got an education that day. Still getting an education. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 291 Registered: 08-2006 |
I had similar experiences FW. I went to a mostly black high school, they called each other "boy" us "boy" and we them "boy" no one got pissed. I carried that to my jobs after high school and got corrected by the older generation blacks. They would say "Aint no boys here, just men!" The younger blacks I worked with at that ware house job recently did not have the same reaction as their fore fathers when the young white guys there called them boy. Nowadays the young white guys all act like they want to be rap stars like K-Fed. Strange how times change. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4672 Registered: 10-2003 |
U-M president says she'll go to court over affirmative action ban November 8, 2006 By PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER University of Michigan President Mary Sue Coleman says the school will explore its legal options after the state’s voters approved a ban on affirmative action programs that offer preferences to women and minorities. Coleman says she has questions as to whether the ban is lawful, particularly as it pertains to higher education. She said this morning she will ask the courts to allow U-M to keep using its admission system for now until the question is decided. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20061108/NEW S99/61108027 | ||
Crment Member Username: Crment Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2003 |
Fortress_warren, now just imagine that you are in a hiring position at a company. Do you really think that you would hire a minority or a women regardless of their qualifications? You are the type of person that the program was created to combat. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4673 Registered: 10-2003 |
Let the white women that passed this (as they were the swing vote) reveal in their victory. I'm sure their daughters will be proud of them for returning equality to Michigan. The KKK and their sympathetic support from the majority of white men are laughing all the way to the bank, today. Good job! "Equality" finally comes to the State of Michigan! *gag* | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2315 Registered: 11-2003 |
Frank Beckman was kind to refer to BAMN as communists. I prefer to refer to them as petulant children with too much free time and money on their hands. I'll also be amused to see Luke Massey, et al, get thrown in the federal slammer for trying some of the shenanagans that he and his group pulled in Lansing earlier. Interesting to hear about the U of M comment. I have absolutely no problem with them fighting it in court. I also have absolutely no problem with Lansing pulling an equal amount of money out of their yearly stipend they receive. Let's see how committed they are to their "beliefs" when there is a dollar value attached to it. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 775 Registered: 02-2004 |
The right uses the term communist loosely. BAMN isn't communist,they are much closer to anarchists (though no self-respecting anarchist would claim those bozos). | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 252 Registered: 09-2006 |
"If anybody ever gets on the better campuses such as UM, MSU, UW, etc. (purposely omitted WSU), he will witness that a significantly large percentage of their students, especially grads, are from out of state or from out of this country." That couldn't be more true especially at MSU the majority of TA's are Asian in almost every department. And the few black TA's are id say 80 percent from Africa or the Caribbean. Just to make a point about the perceived discrimination Affirmative Action had in the public university ill throw out some stats about MSU. There were I believe.... someone told me anyway, 6 to 7 thousand non white students on campus last year. (need verification) There are over 35 thousand MSU students!! Take away the east and west Asian, African, and Latin populations and I think you may have roughly 2000 incoming African American freshman each year. Half of which are not from Detroit and of the African American student population only about 60 percent graduate, and the majority of them are women. So I dont see how a program that may have helped admit less than ten percent of the total student population was unfair to white men who were applying to MSU. Most universities that LY listed probably have African American enrollment rates that are similar in number. Most college students white and black voted no on proposal 2 up here. Maybe because subconsciously they knew that there was no shortage of white men on campus and did indeed see the removal of this legislation as a "roll back" on progress. Or it could be that MSU is a very liberal university. I hope a study is done that shows the percentage of yes votes that did or did not attend some sort of four year university. I suspect that many of the yes voters are uniNformed of the situation on most public universities, they hear a few horror stories of how Brad got passed up by Jamal and they shiver to think it could be their children or them who could experience the same thing. While most who attended a four year university know that white men are fairly represented on almost every college campus nationwide. I'm done ranting now. (Message edited by Mayor_sekou on November 08, 2006) | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 151 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Fortress_warren, now just imagine that you are in a hiring position at a company. Do you really think that you would hire a minority or a women regardless of their qualifications? You are the type of person that the program was created to combat." I would hire the AA person in a heartbeat. The white guys can't sue over any issue, except for age; over 40. That's the way it is. White guys are fucked. LMichigan has exhibited a rare moment of lucidity about this, with his "white women" benefit.That was my experience. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1692 Registered: 10-2004 |
"I suspect that many of the yes voters are uniformed of the situation on most public universities, they hear a few horror stories of how Brad got passed up by Jamal and they shiver to think it could be their children or them who could experience the same thing." Just what type of uniform did you have in mind? | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 254 Registered: 09-2006 |
"uniNformed" as in not aware that there is very miniscule percentage of white male Americans who suffered from this phenomenon of getting passed over by a minority during the admissions process at a major Michigan public university. Also, "uniNformed" that despite the advent of Affirmative Action the population of non whites on campuses nationwide remain very small relative to the population of non whites in this country. (Message edited by Mayor_sekou on November 08, 2006) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2205 Registered: 02-2005 |
To Johnny5 and all others willing to have a civilized discussion on what to do in a post-race preferences society where we still want diversity: http://www.ucsc.edu/currents/0 2-03/04-21/opinion.html this is a 2003 opine from the then-president of the UC system. He, like Mary Sue Coleman (who I listened to on the Diag today), supports old-school affirmative action, but unlike Mary Sue, he was very foward-looking and up to the challenge of trying to achieve diversity through means other than race preferences. Note, in paragraphs 8 and 9 of his actual article, what he says about outreach programs and their positive results. "This year (2003) the number of underrepresented minority freshmen at UC campuses exceeds the number enrolled before race and ethnicity were eliminated as admissions considerations." This gets to the point that I was trying to illustrate earlier, but Johnny5, see the links I provide at the end of this post for more details. Now, while more minorities are in the UC system now than during affirmative action, there is still a net loss at the two best schools, UC-B and UCLA, which are more comparable to UM. However, the trend in admission rates of minorities has been up since 2000. Again, its because of the outreach and other special programs that have made more minority youth qualified for top colleges. I hope to God that UM's Pres. Coleman stops complaining and takes action in the same way that UC did. If she does, there could be a lot more outreach from UM to Detroit which would be great. http://www.ucop.edu/sas/publis h/aa_final2.pdf http://www.ucop.edu/ucophome/u wnews/stat/ http://www.ucop.edu/news/facts heets/Flowfrc_9505.pdf for those of you hungry for stats on this topic, see those links. The first link is a comprehensive writeup about what has happened at UC after the abolition of race and gender preferences. I believe it is very relevant for Michigan schools, but only if our leaders emulate the leaders in California. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 153 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Just what type of uniform did you have in mind?" Maize and Blue, are you some kind of maroon? The yes voters are informed. They know the slim chances their kids getting into AA. I didn't have to face that 36 years ago, it was just merit. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 330 Registered: 01-2005 |
No, affirmative action is NOT dead in MI. Racial, gender, age and ethnic discrimination by government is now dead in MI. Hurray. Finally. Every right thinking individual and institution in MI can now creat and implement affirmative action programs which are not based illegal discrimination, and which will probably be much more effective and less divisive. (The problem is that they will cost more. So what.) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1693 Registered: 10-2004 |
If the young "mayor" at MSU intends to become an attorney, he should be aware (informed, that is) that words actually "mean" things... | ||
Mongo Member Username: Mongo Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2006 |
Finally! | ||
Mw2gs Member Username: Mw2gs Post Number: 238 Registered: 03-2005 |
The story presented by Irish Mafia is one that is fabricated in the minds of many un-informed white people in this state. The fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands, more qualified "diverse" applicants never crosses their minds as they make these stories up. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 269 Registered: 07-2005 |
Well, I don't think that universities are discriminating against black (or other racial minorities) applicants. I think universities are trying to make their campuses more diverse. A lot of people say that Blacks don't get an equal chance because they're poor and live in poor areas without good schools and that kind of stuff. So to me, that's not about race, but about wealth. But I didn't vote on that one either way. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 255 Registered: 09-2006 |
OH, uninformed LOL. Yeah I get it now. Spelling like that Im suprised that I didnt get stuck in IraK. (Message edited by Mayor_sekou on November 08, 2006) | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 331 Registered: 01-2005 |
You opponents of Prop 2 must feel like the little buy who came down one Christmas morning and found his stocking stuffed with horse shit. He started crying because he thought the pony ran away. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1694 Registered: 10-2004 |
Nothing personal "mayor" (OK, just a little), but I'd never commission you for drafting any document that wasn't in a multiple-choice, already prepared format. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 256 Registered: 09-2006 |
Yeah spelling "uniformed" wrong could do that to a man, but my point still stands in the posts above. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 155 Registered: 10-2006 |
Mayor-sekou, you'll need to know all the military terms. Lock and Load, magazine,incoming,IED. With your Moo U degree, you'll be in Baghdad, soon. Enjoy!!! | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 257 Registered: 09-2006 |
Do you realize that when you U of M people say "Moo U" that just makes you oh so much lamer?? But thanks I look forward to joining the fight to spread democracy throughout IraK. Thankfully the military unlike Michigan will be happy to accept me in their club no matter what my color is. | ||
Opus Member Username: Opus Post Number: 29 Registered: 08-2005 |
For those that support affirmative action my only question is "When does it end?" "What are the conditions that need to exist in order to determine that the goals of affirmative action have been reached?" Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever been able to answer this simple question. Meanwhile, an environment of contempt and suspicion ferments whenever the two races meet in any competitive situation, ie hiring, admittance etc... | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 971 Registered: 12-2005 |
Opus, see Affirmative action, specifically: "The stated goal of Affirmative Action is to sufficiently counter past discrimination such that a strategy will no longer be necessary: the power elite will reflect the demographics of society at large." | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4674 Registered: 10-2003 |
So, how did the proposal go for eliminating preferences for trust-fund brats with alumni parents (almost an exclusively white club of folks)? Oh, yeah, there wasn't one. I guess it's only 'racist' if white men are the ones precieved to be discriminated against. Seriously, this was a total joke, and nearly everyone knows it accept the folks that were fooled. This was a carefully crafted plan aimed as a direct, frontal assault against the gains made by those that fought for a multicultural country, not a color-blind society where the majority doesn't even wish one to be according to this vote. This isn't just a punch in the face to race relations, but to women and the society as a whole by the ruling class of white men. They are STILL burning bridges this many years later that were built to bridge casms and disparities that STILL haven't been crossed. I knew Michigan wasn't racially progressive, but boy did this vote prove that once and for all. We really are the Mississippi of the Midwest. It doesn't surprise me that one of the most racially polarized and segregated states in the country would adopt this, but that doesn't make the hurt and anger any less palpable. A huge reason why this state is ailing socially and economically is BECAUSE OF the constant assault on the minority class in this country, both the poor and rich among them. Good luck creating REAL equality in this state, Michigan, because you worked completely against REAL equality, last night. And, the white women who voted for the so-called Civil Rights Initiative won't realize how badly this hurt them until their numbers began to dry up in the public sector all over this state. It's disgutingly ironic that some of them voted for Granholm, and then voted for this. (Message edited by lmichigan on November 08, 2006) | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 341 Registered: 03-2004 |
FWIW, I am a white woman who voted against Prop 2. Although affirmative action (as it existed before the election) had its flaws, I felt it was better than nothing. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4677 Registered: 10-2003 |
And thank you, Jennifer, for your positive contribution. Notice, I made careful consideration to only include those white women who voted for this to receive my negative criticism. There are good people from all sides who fought this, and they deserve just as much respect as the next person. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 271 Registered: 07-2005 |
Lmichigan, I'd like to know what you think of my thinking on this. (I posted it earlier but I'll post it again here). "Well, I don't think that universities are discriminating against black (or other racial minorities) applicants. I think universities are trying to make their campuses more diverse. A lot of people say that Blacks don't get an equal chance because they're poor and live in poor areas without good schools and that kind of stuff. So to me, that's not about race, but about wealth." It seems like we generally think similairly on things, except for this, so I'd like to understand what you think on this better. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1696 Registered: 10-2004 |
Psst! AA wasn't EVER meant to end. And even thinking or asking about this remote possibility simply shows how insensitive one can be. For shame! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 973 Registered: 12-2005 |
Thought Police | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4678 Registered: 10-2003 |
Why this really shouldn't surprise anyone: U.S. segregation approaches apartheid-era S. Africa, prof says Wednesday, November 08, 2006 By Mark Roth, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Only one modern nation has had greater racial segregation than exists today in many American cities. That nation was South Africa in the years before the end of apartheid, says Douglas Massey, a professor of sociology and public affairs at Princeton University. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg /06312/736387-51.stm ------------------------------ ------------------- What makes this segregation worse is its by choice of the majority, primarily. Michigan simply represents the feeling of most Americans. "We don't want to live near you, and hell if we owe any of you anything, or feel any need to do anything about any problem. I got mine, now you go get your own." God bless America. (Message edited by lmichigan on November 08, 2006) | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 516 Registered: 10-2003 |
LMichigan, the second this was put on the ballot, I knew it would pass. Why would white men vote against their own privilege? Heck, if I white, it's more than likely I would have voted yes. What astounds me -- what has always astounded me -- is people who "hunger and thirst for righteousness' sake" of all races. A majority of the University of Michigan campus voted against the MCRI, and the campus climate was overwhelmingly supportive to those of us who are women and people of color. Today I received emails from President Coleman, the Dean of the Rackham Graduate school, and both of my department chairs, assuring me that they made me a promise, that I was admitted because I was qualified, and that my place at the university and the funding was secure. Several graduate school colleagues also expressed their anger and confusion over the passing. I taught my kids in Detroit that hatred gets us nowhere. We who are black and brown have not made any gains in American history without the support of those who are "insiders" of the white privilege power structure. Wilberforce catalyzed the end of slavery in the British Empire; John Brown did so here in the United States. It was a multiracial coalition that engineered the NAACP in response to the brutal oppression of the nadir period of black American history (think of the iconic photographs from the teens and twenties with the banner flying outside of their offices--"A man was lynched today). It was a multiracial coalition, in the end, that brought Jim Crow to its knees. Race and gender-based affirmative action will end all over the United States... but the good news is that eventually race relations will improve, not because of this, but simply because the nation is becoming browner. Expect the 21st century to bring SES-based affirmative action (but expect some of the detractors to complain about "class warfare) and sweeping reforms of K-12 schools. (Next for obsolescence: teacher's unions. You heard it here first.) And yes, "acting white" is a major issue in certain sectors of the black community... but it's an internal concern that needs to be wrestled with. I'm with Malcolm X, others don't have the moral or ethical capital to "school" us about our culture and values. We will do that now that we've been forced to. Also, black people aren't stupid... we know we are no longer the largest minority group, and that other immigrant groups of color (save for some Latinos and Natives) have little stake in preserving affirmative action. The bling-bling movement of the hip-hop nation will soon be the ethos of the middle-aged folks, and younger gens will rebel against it as antiquated. The community will adjust accordingly, as we've adjusted to every other hand we've been dealt since we were unchained and dumped onto terra firma here in the New World. We'll likely still be on the bottom, since the presence of racial differences in the United States obscures the issue of class, unlike in other places. But we will deal with it. LMichigan, I agree with this: "We don't want to live near you, and hell if we owe any of you anything, or feel any need to do anything about any problem. I got mine, now you go get your own." But they will have no choice. By the end of this century, by dint of sheer demographics, people of European descent will be a distinct global minority--even in Europe and America. Just as there was always going to be a day after affirmative action... there will be a day after Western domination and white privilege end. There are some who fear that day. They think that a globe without Western hegemony would be a dangerous, ignorant, and fearful place, and point to the current state of the Third World as example. Or they think we will do to them what they have done to us, so many of us, for 25-30 generations... and that someday, white skin will be as reviled as black skin is on a global basis, in almost every culture. That is what the vote was about... but it is as feeble as continuing to fill up our tanks with gasoline. Banning affirmative action is the last gasp, not a renewed turn towards re-enslavement. As for the resegregation of America? The difference is that this time, we can eat and shop and live where we like. So what if people feel most comfortable with their own kind? Many of my generation who grew up in post-1967 Detroit actually wish there *were* more viable majority-black communities that were safe, had decent schools, and goods and services. I say let's have more places like Prince George's County and Southfield. As for the inner cities, there are enough progressive and antiracist kids from ALL ethnicities in the up and coming generations that will speed up the gentrification -- but there'll be more socioeconomically mixed neighborhoods. (Here in Ann Arbor, that's what we have.) I am hopeful for the future. It's just that the relics of the past must die off. Maybe not in time for you and me, as Stevie Wonder wrote, but someday very soon... | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 194 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Many of my generation who grew up in post-1967 Detroit actually wish there *were* more viable majority-black communities that were safe, had decent schools, and goods and services. I say let's have more places like Prince George's County and Southfield." So why don't you do something in instead of just moving out and wishing? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4681 Registered: 10-2003 |
This was, indeed, a deep-rooted vote of fear by the ruling class and its coalition of clueless or blissfully ignorant voters. The fear that maybe we all haven't done enough to come together. The fear that maybe they haven't put in their part of the effort to bridge the unnatural gaps. The fear that, perhaps, they and their ancestors helped create (and widen) that gap. A fear that a vote for AA would threaten their ruling class status. There was just so much deep-rooted fear hidden behind the guise of "equality." Again, this was a vote for a "Color-Blind Society" in which we've already been magically brought to the spot of equality. A society where the Civil Rights movement solved everything and instantly. No one wants to put in the hard work, anymore, on either side, the the whites who grudgingly accepted the Civil Rights movement and what it brought saw this as an opportunity to beat it back, as they'd never fully supported it in the first place. They were simply shooting a fish in a barrel when this MCRI was handed to them by California. Wouldn't it be great if we, too, could live in blissful ignorance of the real situation, English? Wouldn't it be great if this country actually was where whites wish that it was? Sad thing is that this vote for "equality" does quite the opposite, and will make it even harder on BOTH sides to come back to the middle. It was proposed to bring out the fears in even the best of us on both sides. It was proposed to divide and not bridge. Michigan is going to continue to get what is asks for in more ways than one. Be careful what you wish for... (Message edited by lmichigan on November 08, 2006) | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 334 Registered: 06-2006 |
yeah, 'fear'...that's what it was ::rolling eyes:: you lost...quit crying... this vote was fair, it was just, and it was right... (Message edited by thejesus on November 09, 2006) | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3240 Registered: 10-2003 |
English if you would when you get a chance, could you drop me an email? I am currently working on a project and I would like your thoughts on a few issues...public education being one of them. detroitstylin2000 at yahoo dot com. TY "You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread..." | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3242 Registered: 10-2003 |
So what do you propose to replace it with to ensure that it is more fair TJ? BTW I am still awaiting yours and Janes answers, it has been two days and all... All I hear for the "reverse discrimination" group is glee and jubilation that it's gone, done, and over with... | ||
Quickdrawmcgraw Member Username: Quickdrawmcgraw Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2005 |
Opus -- AA ends when people of all races can mutually agree that the playing field is correct or agree to a time-table to end AA and allow those institutions to work on creating a diverse atmosphere in public funded institutions. Irish_mafia -- so typical that even as a former U of M student, that doesn't happen all the time. Some of us BLACKs have to pay college tuition and don't get the luxuries of financial-aid. Thejesus -- its a typical response when U r not the one its affecting. LMichigan -- well said. No need to put in my 2 cents. Personally, I can't wait to see how this Proposal 2 does affect culture in this state. Just because it affects the public institutions will have a rippling effect on private business. Yes, those who were in favor of Prop 2, you won; however, did you really do a deep dive on what you were voting for? I will agree AA will eventually and will need to end; however, no one really wanted dialogue (only debates and mudslinging when you can't speak with tact.). What I find most interesting about this is passage of proposal was people who voted for the ban, I'm sure their mind was "AA=Black". No one was thinking of any other minorities that this may affect. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 272 Registered: 07-2005 |
"Many of my generation who grew up in post-1967 Detroit actually wish there *were* more viable majority-black communities that were safe, had decent schools, and goods and services. I say let's have more places like Prince George's County and Southfield." While there are plenty of racists, I think that most people think this. And why don't white people move into mostly black neighborhoods? Because for whatever socioeconomic reasons and all of that kind of stuff, a lot of the black neighborhoods aren't all that great (no one, not even the black people there, want to live there). And then, in the eyes of a lot of people, all of Detroit is a bad place to live, so why would they move there? | ||
Alsodave Member Username: Alsodave Post Number: 771 Registered: 10-2003 |
How very true... | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4146 Registered: 10-2003 |
I suddenly have an urge to slap someone upside the head. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3075 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dosent matter, it will be overturned. Its unconstitutional.. | ||
Detroiternthemist Member Username: Detroiternthemist Post Number: 76 Registered: 01-2006 |
Funny thing is when did this become a we won you lost so get over issue? The real question should be what was the reasons behind creating AA? Are those issues solved? My biggest problem with this is how can you asked the majority to vote to keep something they didn't want in the first place. Makes plenty of sense to me. | ||
Mw2gs Member Username: Mw2gs Post Number: 240 Registered: 03-2005 |
Detroiter.....that started a loooong time ago. Thing is some people have lost their edge when it comes to hiding who they really are. You guys are slipping. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 131 Registered: 08-2006 |
Dtroitstylin, I m here. What happened to my original post? Some "Zag" was going off on me for something, and now its gone? | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 273 Registered: 07-2005 |
oh, oopps, I slipped out of reality for a second. Every square inch of Detroit is a glorious place to live. Oustanding education, safety, well functioning government. Grosse Pointe's a total dump, why would any one want to live there? But really, all of Detroit is not a fantastic place to live. I don't really see how any one could think it is. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 335 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Dosent matter, it will be overturned. Its unconstitutional.." lol, I'd LOVE to hear an explanation for this... | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4147 Registered: 10-2003 |
My reaction was not based on your comments on Detroit, it was a reaction to your very overt racist remark regarding Black neighborhoods. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 195 Registered: 02-2006 |
Come on Jams. You have to admit that overall even Palmer Woods and the University District aren't as well kept as similar areas in the Pointes. Why is this??? It is ok to admit that different people have different priorities as far as home maintenance. It's not racist. People are just different. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 275 Registered: 07-2005 |
Oh, sorry. My point was though, the metro will be less segregated when more black people move into the suburbs (which has seemed to start in the last few years). Most people don't want to be in most parts of Detroit, regardless of their color, so the metro isn't going to be less segregated because of white people moving into Detroit. | ||
Mw2gs Member Username: Mw2gs Post Number: 241 Registered: 03-2005 |
So most people in Detroit who own their home and have lived there for 10+ years, according to your logic, really dont want to be there. I think I get it now. | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 40 Registered: 07-2006 |
"a lot of the black neighborhoods aren't all that great (no one, not even the black people there, want to live there)." I highly doubt this comment is based on "home maintenance priorities", 321brian. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 132 Registered: 08-2006 |
^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ Reminds me alot when the president of Mexico, Fox made that almost identical statement. "Mexicans do jobs that even blacks wont do in the United States"..... Getting back to Brians statement, hes right.....who of any color would want to live in a slum? Sheese, people want to live in better areas and many who do live there want the opportunity to move out..... | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 197 Registered: 02-2006 |
I guess the moral of the story is that if we want nice looking neighborhoods. No matter if we are black or white we should hire Mexicans to do the yardwork. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 482 Registered: 08-2006 |
Hey, why did you guys vote no on Proposal 2 anyway????? Dont understand that one. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 483 Registered: 08-2006 |
Hey, why did you guys vote yes on Proposal 2 anyway????? Dont understand that one. | ||
Detroiternthemist Member Username: Detroiternthemist Post Number: 77 Registered: 01-2006 |
The more I read this thread the more im convinced that minorities don't have to worry about being treated equally <s> AA should've never been started there are no signs of racism in Michigan or this country. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 651 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Doesn't matter, it will be overturned. Its unconstitutional.." True, but it will be different this time: As white males have been discriminated against for the last couple of decades due to this law, we are having it changed to right the injustices of the past. If you are not an aggrieved white male, you will need to meet a higher standard to get into the university. I'm sure that everyone can understand the need to right the years of injustice..and if they don't, well then we will just find a judge, a governor or university president who is a bit more enlightened than the populace to make things right! In this entire state, only three counties voted to retain the racist AA laws. If we have public servants that look to thwart the publics' will because they think that they are just a bit more intelligent than the dopes who voted for this...it would seem ample reason to have their asses fired....and the rest of their carcasses tarred and feathered. | ||
Rasputin Member Username: Rasputin Post Number: 3787 Registered: 10-2003 |
Affirmative Action is NOT DEAD in Michigan. Just as the UM admin stated .... the vote means nothing. As long as FEDERAL FUNDS are involved, Affirmative Action is still in place, alive and kickin'!!!! So the racist cheering peanut gallery has still been effectively twarted!!! Sorry, po' white boys, er, white dudettes. Black-atcha .... watching Connerly laugh his way to the bank | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10858 Registered: 10-2003 |
I wasn't cheering...go figure ya old geezer. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 342 Registered: 03-2004 |
Why did I vote no on Proposal 2? I had many reasons, but I think what it all boiled down to was the vast inequality that exists in our public schools, which I have witnessed firsthand. Although I strongly believe that this inequality needs to be addressed at the K-12 level rather than at the university level, affirmative action was at least trying to help some of the people who had been given the sh-t end of the educational stick. Yes, I am well aware that there are rich black people who benefit from affirmative action while poor whites from inferior schools are left behind. Affirmative action has its flaws, certainly. I said this in my previous post. But Proposal 2's passage hasn't changed anything for poor whites. They're stuck in the same old boat. The whites who will benefit from Proposal 2 are the second-tier students from affluent schools, the kids whose grades, test scores, and class standings were a wee bit too low to get them into U of M or MSU in the past. As long as we're on the subject of white self-interest, I think it's in EVERYBODY'S self-interest who live in a society where there's a large pool of educated people of all races. It makes the U.S. a better country, plain and simple. | ||
Mongo Member Username: Mongo Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2006 |
Affirmative action should be dead the people voted. Affirmative action doesn't work. The best people for a job should be hired. I had a friend who was white like me and worked at the post office downtown at the main one. Well when he was promoted because of Affirmative action. There were death threats against him. Other things happen to him, they had to transfer him out of there. He too shouldn't of been promoted based on race.We need to hire the best people for that job. If Affirmative action is such a good idea then, why don't they use it in sports? There once was a time this was needed, it has passed. Just because you may have voted against it, doesn't make one a racist. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 337 Registered: 06-2006 |
still waiting to hear any pro-AA people comment on whether they would support racial quotas in professional sports... I know the answer is an obvious 'No' but at the very least I thought this perspective would make at least one of you realize how ridiculous racial quotas are... | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 198 Registered: 02-2006 |
Jenniferl, Who exactly runs those schools that give students "the sh-t end of the educational stick"? | ||
Imperfectly Member Username: Imperfectly Post Number: 149 Registered: 06-2004 |
This is officially the scariest thread I have ever read. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5184 Registered: 02-2004 |
Rasputin, When I wrote Affirmative Action is DEAD it means Affirmative Action by means of race and gender for college admissions is DEAD! in codespeak. | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 494 Registered: 08-2006 |
That's what I thought you meant also | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3076 Registered: 10-2003 |
UNTIED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN SOUTHERN DIVISION ______________________________ ________________________ Case No. Hon. COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF COALITION TO DEFEND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, INTEGRATION AND IMMIGRANT RIGHTS AND FIGHT FOR EQUALITY BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY (BAMN), UNITED FOR EQUALITY AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, RAINBOW PUSH COALITION, CALVIN JEVON COCHRAN, LASHELLE BENJAMIN, BEAUTIE MITCHELL, DENESHEA RICHEY, STASIA BROWN, MICHAEL GIBSON, CHRISTOPHER SUTTON, LAQUAY JOHNSON, TURQOISE WISE-KING, BRANDON FLANNIGAN, JOSIE HYMAN, ISSAMAR CAMACHO, KAHLEIF HENRY, SHANAE TATUM, MARICRUZ LOPEZ, ALEJANDRA CRUZ, ADARENE HOAG, CANDICE YOUNG, TRISTAN TAYLOR, WILLIAMS FRAZIER, JERELL ERVES, MATTHEW GRIFFITH, LACRISSA BEVERLY, D’SHAWN FEATHERSTONE, DANIELLE NELSON, JULIUS CARTER, KEVIN SMITH, KYLE SMITH, PARIS BUTLER, TOUISSANT KING, AIANA SCOTT, ALLEN VONOU, RANDIAH GREEN, BRITTANY JONES, COURTNEY DRAKE, DANTE DIXON, JOSEPH HENRY REED, AFSCME LOCAL 207, AFSCME LOCAL 214, AFSCME LOCAL 312, AFSCME LOCAL 836, AFSCME LOCAL 1642, AFSCME LOCAL 2920, and the DEFEND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PARTY Plaintiffs, -vs- JENNIFER GRANHOLM, in her official capacity as Governor of the State of Michigan, and the REGENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, the BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY, the BOARD OF GOVERNORS OF WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY, and the TRUSTEES OF any other public college or university, community college, or school district, Defendants. ______________________________ ______/ GEORGE B. WASHINGTON (P-26201) SHANTA DRIVER (P-65007) SCHEFF & WASHINGTON, P.C. Attorney for Plaintiffs 645 Griswold—Ste 1817 Detroit, MI 48226 (313) 963-1921 Pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, the plaintiffs, by and through their attorneys, Scheff & Washington, P.C., state as follows: INTRODUCTION 1. The plaintiffs BAMN, et al. assert that Proposal 2, which was placed on the ballot of the State of Michigan by racially-targeted voter fraud, and which was adopted by Michigan voters on November 7, 2006, violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and is preempted by Titles VI and VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Title IX of the Educational Amendments of 1972. As there is no state’s rights exception for federal anti-discrimination laws, the plaintiffs ask for declaratory and injunctive relief against the implementation of Proposal 2. (42 USC 1983) 2. In the absence of affirmative action, state actors will be prohibited from utilizing the only effective policies ever devised to desegregate universities, employment, and public contracting. No state Constitution can prohibit its state bodies from fulfuilling the federal mandate to desegregate. 3. In the absence of affirmative action, college admissions, state hiring and contracting will be conducted on a discriminatory basis. The irreparable harm to women and minorities in the absence of affirmative action has been clearly established in California. JURISDICTION AND VENUE 4. This Court has jurisdiction over this matter pursuant to 28 USC 1331 and 28 USC 1343(3). 5. The United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan is a proper venue for this action as a substantial part of the events or omissions giving rise to this action occurred in the Eastern District of Michigan. PARTIES 6. The plaintiff BAMN is a voluntary association organized for the purpose of building a new civil rights movement and opposing attacks upon affirmative action. 7. The plaintiff United for Equality and Affirmative Action Legal Defense Fund is a non-profit legal defense and education fund established by BAMN to conduct the legal defense of our nation’s civil rights. 8. The plaintiff Rainbow PUSH Coalition is a voluntary association organized for the purpose of promoting education and participation in American democracy and civil rights. 9. The plaintiffs Calvin Jevon Cochran, Lashelle Benjamin, Beautie Mitchell, Deneshea Richey, Stasia Brown, Michael Gibson, Christopher Sutton, Laquay Johnson, Turqoise Wise-King, Brandon Flannigan, Kahleif Henry, Shanae Tatum, Kevin Smith, Kyle Smith, Paris Butler, Touissant King, Aiana Scott, Allen Vonou, Randiah Green, Brittany Jones, Courtney Drake, Matthew Griffith, Lacrissa Beverly, D’shawn Featherstone, Danielle Nelson, Julius Carter, Williams Frazier, and Dante Dixon are black high school students in Michigan who plan to attend college, and to work and live in Michigan in the future. 10. The plaintiffs Josie Hyman, Alejandra Cruz, Adarne Hoag, Candice Young, Tristan Taylor, Jerell Erves, are black, Latino/a and white college students and graduates who plan to attend graduate school, and to work and live in Michigan in the future. 11. The plaintiff Joseph Henry Reed was a petition circulator for the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative (now Proposal 2). 12. The plaintiffs AFSCME Local 207, AFSCME Local 214, AFSCME Local 312, AFSCME Local 836, AFSCME Local 1642, AFSCME Local 2920, are labor organizations with large memberships who stand to suffer discrimination in the absence of affirmative action. 13. The plaintiff Defend Affirmative Action Party is a voluntary student political organization on the University of Michigan student government. 14. The plaintiff Maricruz Lopez is a Latina student at the University of Michigan and the chair of the Defend Affirmative Action Party. 15. The plaintiff Issamar Camacho is a Latina high school student from Los Angeles California who intends to apply for college in Michigan. 16. The defendant Jennifer Granholm is the Governor of Michigan and is sued in her official capacity. 17. The defendant Regents of the University of Michigan is the duly elected governing board of the University of Michigan. 18. The defendant Board of Trustees of Michigan State University is the duly elected governing board of Michigan State University. 19. The defendant Board of Governors of Wayne State University, is the duly elected governing board of Wayne State University. STATEMENT OF FACTS 20. In 1866, Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which banned all racial discrimination in the form of contract entered into by persons or institutions in the United States. 21. 1964, the Congress of the United States passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, mandating that all employers and educational institutions in the United States eliminate all polices that had the intent or the effect of discriminating against persons on account of their race, color, national origin or gender. 22. In 1972, Congress amended the Civil Rights Act to make it applicable to all state and local governments. 23. In 1972, Congress also passed the Educational Amendments of 1972, mandating the end of any discrimination on account of gender in education. 24. Commencing in 1964 and continuing thereafter, the President of the United States, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Civil Rights Commission and numerous other public officials recognized that it was not possible to assure equality and desegregation in education, employment and many other areas without the use of race and gender conscious measures that came to be known as affirmative action. 25. In repeated decisions, the United States Supreme Court recognized that the Civil Rights Acts conferred on universities, governments and employers the right to take voluntary affirmative action measures to assure equality on account of race and gender, most recently in the United States Supreme Court June 2003 decision in Grutter v Bollinger, approving the affirmative action plan at the University of Michigan Law School. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3077 Registered: 10-2003 |
26. Proposal 2, which is a direct copy of California’s Proposition 209, purports to eliminate what it calls race and gender preferences and what everyone else calls “affirmative action.” 27. As established by a decade of experience in California, the elimination of affirmative action plans means a drastic decline in the enrollment of black, Latino/a and Native American students at the flagship state universities and of women in many university programs. The elimination of affirmative action plans has precipitated a decline in the employment of black, Latino/a, and Native American people at all levels of government employment and contracting. 28. As established by a decade of experience in California, the adoption of Proposal 2 will make it impossible to implement the mandates of the Civil Rights Acts set forth above. COUNT ONE VIOLATION OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACTS 29. The allegations of paragraphs one through 17 are repeated as if fully set forth herein. 30. In depriving state educational and government institutions of the ability to assure equal educational and employment opportunity, Proposal 2 destroys the ability of the state institutions and governments to fulfill the purposes of the federal Civil Rights Acts set forth above. 31. Proposal 2 is preempted by the Civil Rights Act of 1866, by Titles VI and VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and by Title IX of the Educational Amendments of 1972. WHEREFORE, the plaintiffs ask that this Court enter declaratory and injunctive relief declaring Proposal 2 preempted by the federal civil rights acts, enjoining the defendants from eliminating any affirmative action plans on account of Proposal 2, and granting such further relief as is just and equitable. COUNT TWO VIOLATION OF THE EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE 32. The allegations of paragraphs one through 31 are repeated as if fully set forth herein. 33. Proposal 2 unlawfully singles out race and gender alone as areas where the duly-elected public officials may not take steps to eliminate discrimination and assure equality. 34. Furthermore, Proposal 2 unlawfully burdens women and minorities with amending the state constitution before they alone can petition duly-elected officials for redress of grievances, including a redress of grievances regarding the racial and sexual integration of public education and employment. 35. In singling out race and gender for discriminatory treatment, Proposal 2 violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. COUNT THREE VIOLATION OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT 36. The allegations of paragraphs one through 35 are repeated as if fully set forth herein.Under Grutter and its predecessors, public universities have a First Amendment right to determine their academic standards and to determine the criteria for admission to the university. 37. In enacting an amendment that prevents the universities from exercising that First Amendment rights, Proposal 2 violates the rights of the plaintiffs as guaranteed by 42 USC 1983. WHEREFORE, the plaintiffs ask for declaratory relief that Proposal 2 violates the First Amendment and injunctive relief restraining the defendant universities from changing their admission or other policies in an attempt to comply with Proposal 2. WHEREFORE, the plaintiffs ask that this Court enter relief declaring that Proposal 2 violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, enjoining the defendants from eliminating any affirmative action plans on account of Proposal 2, and granting such further relief as is just and equitable. By Plaintiffs’ Attorneys, SCHEFF & WASHINGTON, P.C. BY: __________________________ George B. Washington (P-26201) Shanta Driver (P-65007) 645 Griswold—Ste 1817 Detroit, Michigan 48226 (313) 963-1921 (313) 407-4865 November 8, 2006 | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3078 Registered: 10-2003 |
To thejesus: That is the explanation you were seeking. While you were lol- this was being filed. It will be overturned. Its unconstitutional. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 160 Registered: 07-2005 |
IU is more likely to beat UM by 5 tds than the plaintiffs are in prevailing in this suit. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2206 Registered: 02-2005 |
Yeah no joke. Talk about spin. I though race and gender preferences were in violation of the Equal Protection clause, not the MCRI. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 133 Registered: 08-2006 |
I agree, the most qualified for the job should be hired. What happens when girls who weigh 200 lbs arent hired by Abacronmbie and Fitch for their sales magazines? Whos' fault is that? Did 50 year old white guys sue Abacrombie when the suit settled, giving a cash settlement to minorities, because minorities felt that they werent represented in Abacrombies catalogue? Were there any handi capped models sporting the latest fashions? Were there any transgendereds modeling the latest winter fashion? When is the last time you've been to Hooters and seen a 200 lb woman waiting tables? I have repeatedly asked when anyone has ever seen a female pitcher in the World Series, or a 4 " 4 Chinese half-back foot ball player? It comes down to this> Who is best qualified for the job description. If people want to fit the bill, get educated, get in shape, get a degree, work for a goal, what ever, but dont play the victim. You wont be sucessful playing the victim. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 338 Registered: 06-2006 |
Zulu... That didn't even attempt to answer my question, and unfortunately for you, there are simply no grounds on which to invalidate this constitutional amendment... none... The EXACT SAME LAW was passed in California 10 years ago...after it passed, a District Court judge (who just happened to be a black civil rights lawyer) blocked the law's enactment, but the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned that ruling, and the US Supreme Ccourt subsequnetly refused to even hear the case on appeal because there were no genuine issues of law in dispute the game's over for race-based AA...time to accept it (Message edited by thejesus on November 10, 2006) | ||
Mitchegan Member Username: Mitchegan Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 |
It's good to see the white male population vote to end the blatant discrimination they have endured for so long.It is time for fair play,not foul play. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1709 Registered: 10-2004 |
At some point, the anticipated PC guilt feelings failed to kick in. That time was demonstrated this week, as it did when the petitions were signed and distributed, when the proposition got on the ballot, and when the proponents successfully fought off the assholes at BAMN, among others. The legal challenges are expected, but they will have little to no merit. So, let the opponents continue to make their legalese, peanut-whistle noises... | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3079 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well its not unfortunate for me... I understand that Federal law supercedes state law. The Supreme Court has ruled on Affirmative Action, and says that it is still the law of the land. Secondly, proposal 2 can not overrule laws attached to federal dollars which many universities use. So it is clearly against the federal law as written in policies and procedures, and as interpreted by the Supreme Court. The only other recouse that you would have is a bill passed through Congress to ban affirmative action practices in government block grants and other federal funding. But that's not going to happen in a democratic house and senate. So, it is as Zulu has said, its unconstitutional and it will be overturned... Comprehende? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1862 Registered: 07-2004 |
While I don't have any emotional investment I am somewhat interested. To those of you that say the best qualified should prevail I ask; What do you say to the millions of blacks that were better qualified most of the 20th century that were systematically deprived? How does society compensate for that? Knowing we don't have perfect solutions to things. Alan Keyes who some consider a kook has said that the behavior of the black criminal class makes all blacks suspect and that, that is a reasonable thing. Is it unreasonable to think that the past discriminatory practices of whites merits the same ? | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 134 Registered: 08-2006 |
^^ ^^^^^ Are you saying then, that the present discriminatory of blacks don't merit the same? Surely you wouldnt have us to believe that this isn't a present day practice. I have seen it happen first hand in the workplace. | ||
Detroiternthemist Member Username: Detroiternthemist Post Number: 78 Registered: 01-2006 |
Are you serious Janesback? 200lb women @ Hooters...4Ft Chinese men? We are talking about a MAJORITY!!!! White male! and their hiring practices. Its only natural that you feel comfortable around people that look like you. I agree. But what AA did was only make sure everyone got a fair chance. Anyone working knows that the "good ole boy network" exist and will always exist. So the only thing that could've been done is continuously remind them to be FAIR!!! Which is why AA was started and we will definitely feel its effects now that its gone. I hear tons of arguments but what the MAJORITY honestly and probably not their fault seem to not know or forget is that they are born with a built in feature "skin color". The only thing different from 1966 and 2006 is that PC has covered your voice. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 339 Registered: 06-2006 |
Zulu... Not quite there, Lionel Hutz... The USSC decisions in Bollinger and Gratz did NOT hold that AA was the 'law of the land'...not even close... all that came out of those decisions was that Universities could consider race in admissions in the absence of state legislation preventing them from doing so...this is why California's Proposition 209 (identical law to the MCRI we just passed) was not affected in the least bit by this decision...because it was state legislation preventing universities from discriminating and giving preferential treatment based on race here in MI, we now have state legislation preventing Universities from discriminating or giving preferential treatment based on an applicant's race... The lawsuit that was brought in CA was challenging the AA ban on 14th Amendment grounds...they failed at the federal court of appeals level, and the USSC decided that there was no genuine legal issue for them to even resolve, thus affirming the 9th Circuit's decision BAMN's issue here is nothing new...it's already been looked at by the federal courts 10 years ago...this is a done deal... | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2207 Registered: 02-2005 |
For all you talking about the private sector and employment issues: STOP! The MCRI was for universities and state employment only. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2316 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yet another lawsuit to overturn a vote of the people? The BAMN crowd must have something wrong with them to want to get their sorry behinds handed to them at every turn. They lost!!! Get over it! | ||
Superfred79 Member Username: Superfred79 Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2005 |
As a long time lurker, and rare poster, i just wanted to add my 2 cents. For the record i voted yes on this proposal, because i believe anyone and everyone should be judged based on their merit rather than race/gender/religion/soda preference. 2 points i'd like to make. First for those saying AA should end when everyone agrees we've reached a level playing field. Well, that is a pretty broad statement, and there will never be a consesus on that issue. The second is more of a question posed for those who claim that it goes back to "rich white schools/poor black schools". Well if this was the case, would time effort and money be more effective tackling education, rather than slanting the playing field in favor of minorities? Anyway, just wanted to see what everyone thought of those 2 points. Thanks | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 279 Registered: 07-2005 |
I agree with that Superfred79. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 161 Registered: 07-2005 |
Fact of the matter is that UM could craft a policy that gave preference to poor students. If this provision is so clearly unconstitutional (that even a layperson immediately recognizes it) why has it stood 10 years of scrutiny in CA? I'd leave the legal conclusions to lawyers. There is much more to this debate than university admissions. I see a lot of abuse of the system by "minority" businesses. Many of these businesses are set up by whites who use a minority or woman figurehead to qualify for disadvantaged entity qualification. We all end up paying for it in the form of bloated uncompetitive government contracts. This is a huge business. You could argue whether or not the cost of benefitting a small number of minorities in sham businesses is worthwhile. What I don't understand is why a wealthy Indian (asian Indian) gets preferences for government contracts. Has there been longstanding prejudice against Indians that needs to be rectified. Many Indians come to the U.S. very well educated and relatively wealthy. Why the taxpayers of the state of Michigan are throwing money at them is beyond me. | ||
Sarge Member Username: Sarge Post Number: 394 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry Zulu, this one is likely dead on arrival... That the Constitution permits the rare race based or gender based preference hardly implies that the state cannot ban them altogether. States are free to make or not make any constitutionally permissible legislative classification. Nothing in the Constitution suggests the anomalous and bizarre result that preferences based on the most suspect and presumptively unconstitutional classifications race and gender must be readily available at the lowest level of government while preferences based on any other presumptively legitimate classification such as wealth, age or disability are at the mercy of statewide referenda.....To hold that a democratically enacted affirmative action program is constitutionally permissible because the people have demonstrated a compelling state interest is hardly to hold that the program is constitutionally required. The Fourteenth Amendment, lest we lose sight of the forest for the trees, does not require what it barely permits. Coalition for Economic Equality v. Wilson, 122 F.3d 692 (9th Cir. 1997) | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3080 Registered: 10-2003 |
Superfred's posts demonstrates the problem. The playing feild under affirmative action was never slanted in favor of minorities. What it did is make sure that qualified minorities got a chance.... No one wants to discuss that fact that their a millions of underqualified white people who get jobs over more qualified blacks. They get these jobs through friends or because they have a better social "fit"- not because they are more qualified. These are the sick men of America, who weaken the collective strengh of the country because they refuse to become more competitive and then lean on the buddy system to become employed. Many of you know of white people who are poor performers on their jobs, and are not really that qualified for the positions, but get them any way. But no one talks of this fact. AA put the issue of their lack of skill in perspective; that the qualified minorities who were locked out were now competitive and "took" positions from them. The lack of their entitlements means "reverese discrimination" to them- but not their own lack of competitiveness. The culture of priviledge that favored whites will not be easily dismissed. And white people want it again. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 299 Registered: 08-2006 |
Zulu, I affirm what you are saying. And to those that keep posting that prop 2 had nothing to do with the private sector I respond, this is only a step. Do you really think that companies won't follow suit? If we are not assuring minorities and women get a fair shake at education or other state programs, how are they supposed to get "qualified" enough to apply for positions at companies? Thinking that companies run by white guys will be fair, or heck even minority run companies will be fair in hiring and promotions is laughable. | ||
Quickdrawmcgraw Member Username: Quickdrawmcgraw Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2005 |
@ Cambrian -- Or the flip side, why would companies want to come to Michigan (we already have a stagnate industrial base and lousy weather) when we pass a proposal as such without us Michiganians to discuss candidly about race and diversity? WE should have been having this discussion without the outside influences. And if you didn't like the fact of what AA was doing to us, then WE should have been initiating dialogue and discuss how WE collectively should approach on discrimination and correcting AA. It's interesting we have folks on this forum who have no interest in discussing dialogue but make overt statements about one lives a certain way. For every finger you point there are three fingers pointed back @ you. The "We won, you lost. Get Over It" folks on this this forum then you can "Get Lost!" To those who want to discuss and dialogue and come to an agreement, I'm all ears. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 341 Registered: 06-2006 |
Cambrian, I would like to think that companies would follow suit, but they didn't follow suit in CA and neither did private universities... perhaps in time they will, but probably not in the near future | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 342 Registered: 06-2006 |
Sarge: Great excerpt...I was just reading that opinion this morning... The USSC also denied cert to that case, thus affirming that decision... BMAN might get a favorable decision from a biased District Court judge who doesn't follow the law, like in Wilson, but it would just be overturned on appeal... as you put it, dead on arrival | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 160 Registered: 10-2006 |
Cali companies have to have AA programs, otherwise they get sued for employment discrimination. That's why all the Big Corporations in Michigan wanted NO on Prop 2. They want minorities and women that have degrees. Saves on legal costs and bad PR. Think Wal-Mart. They don't want to get Wal-Marted. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 343 Registered: 06-2006 |
"That's why all the Big Corporations in Michigan wanted NO on Prop 2." but Prop 2 doesn't apply to those Big Corporations | ||
Sarge Member Username: Sarge Post Number: 396 Registered: 10-2003 |
I doubt that will happen as he now has precedent to guide him in making his decision. (The case was assigned to USDC Judge David Lawson and referred to Magistrate Judge R. Steven Whalen) | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3082 Registered: 10-2003 |
Its just a matter of time that it gets struck down.  | ||
Dtown1 Member Username: Dtown1 Post Number: 502 Registered: 08-2006 |
Wal-Mart is actually on the verged of getting Wal-Marted anyway, as they are having issues with employees that claim to be treated unfairly in terms of paychecks and benefits. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 345 Registered: 06-2006 |
Sarge: I'm not familiar with that judge and couldn't find much online about him... he may have precedent to guide him but it isn't binding precedent, so we'll see...either way, the end result will be the same on appeal | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 348 Registered: 06-2006 |
Zulu: On what grounds? We just showed you that there isn't a 14th Amendment issue here, and that's what BAMN is basing their case on... All you can do is post pictures in response | ||
Sarge Member Username: Sarge Post Number: 399 Registered: 10-2003 |
The BAMN complaint actually raises some issues that aren't discussed in Wilson, but the end result will be the same. DOA with a toetag to boot. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 161 Registered: 10-2006 |
Quote: "but Prop 2 doesn't apply to those Big Corporations". That is true, BUT, Big Corporations can still get sued for employment discrimination. They need qualified minority and female workers to head that off. Just read this morning that John Deere hired J.C. Watts, former black congressman from OK, to find black dealers to sell JDs. 1400 dealers, not one black. This started from a lawsuit. Company I used to work at got sued by a white woman because she didn't get a promotion she thought she was best qualified for. White guy got it instead. This was in 1984. They gave her almost $500k to go away. Six months later, new program to get as many woman and minorities into management. They're still at it. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3093 Registered: 10-2003 |
It will get struck down because it is incongruent with federal law. Wake up thejesus: Affirmative action is the law of the land. It is tied to EVERY federal dollar that is sent to the states and is appropriated for the use of federal agencies. It IS a standing executive order. But just wait and see.... and remember these conversations when it happens. It will be as Zulu has said... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 352 Registered: 06-2006 |
Zulu: If AA is the 'law of the land', then I love to hear you explain why California's Affirmative Action ban, which is IDENTICAL to Michigan's, is still in effect 10 years and two Supreme Court decisions later... I'd also like to hear you explain why the US Supreme Court decided not to take the appeal when CA's ban was upheld in federal court if there was really something legally wrong with it... (Message edited by thejesus on November 14, 2006) | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 152 Registered: 02-2006 |
"No one wants to discuss that fact that their a millions of underqualified white people who get jobs over more qualified blacks." Do you have a source to back up this claim? The biggest problem with the arguments in this thread is most of the statements seem to be based on speculation at best. "They get these jobs through friends or because they have a better social 'fit' - not because they are more qualified." This statement alone is completely true. Employers want someone who will fit well with the existing employees and office culture. You can claim it's a racial thing, but I see it as a much broader criteria... "These are the sick men of America, who weaken the collective strengh of the country because they refuse to become more competitive and then lean on the buddy system to become employed." No shit. Ever hear of networking? To use a tired cliche - it's not what you know, it's who you know. White or black, doesn't matter. "Many of you know of white people who are poor performers on their jobs, and are not really that qualified for the positions, but get them any way. But no one talks of this fact." I know people of all races who are poor performers at their jobs, what's your point? I'm all for affirmative action - but not racially biased. A white guy and a black guy who grew up next door to each other, went to the same school, and had the same economic conditions should be given exactly the same consideration, period. |
