  Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 825 Registered: 06-2004 |
Moving to Detroit a few years ago, I was and am stunned and amazed at the lack of mass transit. When you talk to people who might be in a position to influence this, you hear a whole list of "reasons" why this is the case. One of the most common reasons is that Detroit is the center of the car industry, which to dumb me made some sense. So imagine my stupified amazement when I had an occassion to visit a major R&D facility of a leading Japanese car maker. This gigantic, campus-like complex, near Tokyo, employees 8500 people. Walking through the grounds, I noticed something: there were virtually no parking spaces. When I enquired, I was told that 90 percent (YES, NINETY PERCENT) of the employees get to work by, hold the phone, MASS TRANSIT. Well, I thought. How could this be? The Japanese car industry is making money hand over fist and kicking the crap out of us. How could they tolerate having 90 percent of their work force use trains. Surely, they must understand the superior wisdom of the US auto industry? Surely this abonimation of mass transit must be crippling their industry? For the love of God, somebody please take off from the list of sorry excuses for our lack of transit, the fact that we are reliant on the car industry. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 602 Registered: 11-2004 |
Quit your whining. Your harp about the lack mass transit option, yet you shill for Republicans. Maybe for voting for the party of Craig " I represent sprawl" De Roche that considers mass transit and pro urban polices "social engineering" isn't the best idea. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4717 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not to keep beating this dead horse, as mass transit is being discussed in how many other threads, but Japanese car companies are making a killing selling cars to other people. Eric, you do know Craig will not longer be Speaker of the Michigan House, right? Michigan Dems recaptured the House and almost took back the state Senate. I'm glad he gone. It at least makes for a move open legislature to urban issues. (Message edited by lmichigan on November 18, 2006) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 384 Registered: 04-2006 |
DARTA was supported by both the auto companies and unions. It died due to the fact that the Republican Gov refused to sign the law, which would allow a relatively powerful entity to exist in a most Democratic part of the state. Partisanship kills transit, not big business. I know most offices downtown would kill to have better transit into the City. Could you imagine the cost saving collectively for all the workers downtown? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 380 Registered: 12-2005 |
I would suggest that there are two major reasons why so many auto workers in Tokyo take mass transit to work as compared to those in the Detroit: 1) Tokyo has a population density that, depending on which areas you compare, is between 2 and 5 times that of Detroit. If Detroit's population density was double its current density, mass transit would be a necessity to prevent gridlock. 2) the high cost of private vehicle ownership in Japan. Besides the high cost of fuel and parking spaces in their urban residential areas, ownership costs are also impacted by the Japanese National Agency of Vehicle Inspection, which is so strict that it effectively encourages owners to trade-in their three-year old vehicles for a new one so they can avoid the process. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4729 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroitplanner, DARTA was approved by Granholm quite a few years ago, now. The ball is now in the metro's court , and it will stay their until the likes of Brooks Patterson is gone. What's holding up DARTA is that the metro leaders are the ones that have to give it teeth. DARTA, right now, is nothing more than a puppet organization. It does not have power to levy any taxes or have any real powers, which can only be given to it by the regional leaders. The very first impediment is figuring out what to do with DDOT and SMART. Mike, rail transit (commuter and light rail alike) work in far less dense metro areas than Detroit. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 381 Registered: 12-2005 |
Did I say it wouldn't? Ray picked the two cities he wanted to compare, despite the fact that almost the entire Japanese auto industry is located outside of the Tokyo metropolitan area. Go figure.... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4734 Registered: 10-2003 |
It wouldn't make a difference if it was in the heart of Tokyo. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 574 Registered: 06-2005 |
There is enough blame to go around the entire Greater Detroit region for the shortcomings of rapid mass transit systems here. Other cities throughout the world, including Tokyo(Japan), Dresden(Germany), Manchester(England), and elsewhere, have major manufacturing industries as well as automobile industries not unlike Detroit. Make a change from this point on. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 395 Registered: 04-2006 |
DARTA was never approved by Granholm. It would have had to have passed the house and senate first. There was no way that the house and senate were going to pass it after Engler torpedoed it due to partisanship. What did happen was that the local elected officials came to an agreement (including Brooks BTW) without legislature, and that was fought by both the legislature and unions in the courts. Granholm had nothing to do with DARTA, although she does support it. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on November 20, 2006) | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4487 Registered: 11-2003 |
Japan is the size of Montana with 80 million people, all Japanese. They are stuffed in like sardines. With only one ethnicity, they get compliance on most things. The USA is diverse, people question everything in 25 languages, have huge private spending power, and like wide open spaces. Japanese-Americans are one of the smallest minorities in the USA. So what they might know, gets filtered away pretty good. jjaba on the Westside. (sociologically speaking) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 209 Registered: 04-2006 |
Japan has a caste system just like the US does... | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1434 Registered: 11-2003 |
True, comparison of the two cities is not entirely fair, but that's not the main point. To me, the interesting question is: Does it make economic sense to promote an auto-oriented culture (which in turn would purportedly help our local auto industry) over and above mass transit in our region? As far as I can tell, there are basically two arguments in favor of this: 1. Promoting automobile usage in the region increases sales in the region, so that would represent some overall increase in sales for the Big 3. 2. A successful auto-centric culture in our region could be a model for other cities to follow, which would further increase sales. 80 years ago, both of these arguments carried some weight. With argument #1, Detroit was pretty far ahead of other regions of the country in terms of level of auto ownership, and this level was rising rapidly. And, the auto industry was not too global at that point. So, the Detroit market was a pretty large chunk of the Big 3's overall market. With #2, cars were definitely considered the "wave of the future" over trains and other transit, even among progressives, and Detroit was at the leading edge having the first mile of concrete roadway, the first below-grade freeway, etc. It seemed logical for the city to promote auto-centric development as much as possible. In 2006, neither argument makes much sense. For #1, with the Big 3 now in the global marketplace, metro Detroit probably represents, what, 1% of the world market for the Big 3? (figure 5 million out of 500 million consumers) And auto ownership levels in metro Detroit are pretty much saturated, they aren't going up any further. One interesting question is what impact there would be on local auto sales if metro Detroit had a solid mass transit system. Figure there probably would be a slight impact from some people relying more on transit, let's say a 3% decrease in local sales. Multiplied together that makes for an overall drop of 0.03% in sales for the Big 3, pretty miniscule. I pulled these numbers out of a hat but we know the overall impact would be negligible. I don't think anyone would seriously argue point #2 today. Detroit is pretty much considered a textbook case of what not to do in urban planning, so it's not going to be a model for other cities to follow. Cars and freeways are no longer considered the wave of the future, they're pretty much established, and better transit is considered the wave of the future for a lot of urban areas. I'd question the mental competence of anyone who argued point #2 in this day and age. So there you have it. Promoting mass transit in metro Detroit will not harm the auto industry.  | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 263 Registered: 04-2006 |
Today, the Michigan Department of Transportation is shutting down the SMART buses in Livonia. It was the cuts in state funding and not the Livonia voters that caused this. SMART and DDOT are still well funded by the state but the purpose of the DARTA agreement was to abolish state funding. The loss of bus service is exactly what DARTA and it's supporters wanted. When DARTA came to Livonia city hall they picked on those who can lease protect themselves by telling our city residents that it is local taxes that are needed and not state funding. They did not support SMART or mass transit. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1451 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thanks for the ol' Trainman Bump. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 267 Registered: 04-2006 |
Our regional leaders should study the Japanese car companies instead of the AA to Det rail service to understand that we need to lower the per passenger costs of transporting people instead of forcing tax increases on the public by cutting off state revenue sharing for the handicapped and the disabled citizens. Like they did today in Livonia. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 733 Registered: 12-2005 |
go to the Wayne state virtual motor city website. look at pictures of the Ford Highland park plant in its heyday. The streetcars brought the employees to and from the plant in huge numbers--they would be packed and stacked on those cars. Nothing new. Times and the desire for personal freedom changed--thanks to Mr.Ford's idea of making the car affordable to the common man. | ||
Magnasco Member Username: Magnasco Post Number: 178 Registered: 10-2003 |
and I believe thanks to the removal of the streetcars as an option if I am not mistaken. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1815 Registered: 12-2003 |
A clarification on the DARTA question. There were 2 DARTAs. One was passed by the state house and senate, only to be vetoed by Engler (I believe as his last act as Gov. and supposedly out of spite for rejected a charter school proposal). Subsequently, the bipartisan support for DARTA evaporated as the Michigan republicans became increasingly ideologically driven and less moderate. The second DARTA was an agreement between the 3 main counties of the metro region (Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb) -- Basically a contract. The union that represents DDOT employees was opposed to any DARTA (not sure of the exact reasons why) and sued on the grounds that the counties did not have the authority to create DARTA that way. They won. Technically DARTA does exist (You are right LMichigan). It just doesn't have any money or any authority. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 287 Registered: 04-2006 |
It's good that DARTA was not funded. Why fund a government function that does nothing? They had some funding from MDOT but did nothing to coordinate SMART and DDOT which helped the city council members in Livonia load their pockets with a raise from money that used to pay for bus service. Is it not obvious that we have enough economic problems in Michigan? DARTA was nothing more than a total waste of time and effort. If only they just listened to the public at their meetings and took the Plymouth Road bus line problems seriously? They did not and this caused the opt-out as evidenced by the very close vote which SMART nearly won. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 398 Registered: 07-2004 |
Well Detroit did have amazing public transit at the height of the auto industry. I forgot the exact date, but as late as the 1950's, Detroit's public transit system carried over 500 million riders a year(current ridership is around 60 million rides a year). And it did not impact car sales Having mass transit does not mean people are all of a sudden not going to own a car. It just means people drive less, or a family will live with one car instead of four. But it does not mean the death of the car. Remember in healthy transit systems, something like 60-70% of transit riders have a car. It just means less car use, not zero car sales. (Message edited by miketoronto on December 13, 2006) | ||
Speddaddy4 Member Username: Speddaddy4 Post Number: 38 Registered: 04-2004 |
I am studying in Japan now in Nagoya, Japan's Motor City. I commute 1 hour everyday by train and subway to school. Despite the efficient rail system, most families own a car but because they'd like to get to work on time, they only go "driving" on the weekends. Traffic is actually worse on the weekends. None of this really adds to the debate, but I just like to say that I can now get anywhere I want without a car. The biggest drawback is that it all shuts down at midnight. |
