Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » White flight history « Previous Next »
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Swillson
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Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 4:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure this topic has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any current threads. I am doing a paper on the increasing geographical segregation of our society for class. I was hoping I could get some facts, opinions and/or observations from forum members.

I have always been partial to blaming the mass population loss in Detroit on the development of the expressway system and the dismantling of the public transit system. Cities have always historically had enclaves of different racial/ethnic groups, but not until after WWII that the move was whites in the suburbs, everyone else in the city.

I also read an article recently on the influence of school desegregation, and how that was an incentive for whites to move farther away to form their own school districts. Does anyone have any personal experiences/opinions about the influence of school desegregation? Having not grown up in that era, I have always kind of pictured it as more of a southern issue, but it seems likely there was plenty of tension in Detroit too.

Also, how do you think the realty industry has affected segregation? I know that often realtors would not show homes in certain neighborhoods to minorities. I read an article that said some realtors would move a black family into a white neighborhood in hopes that white residents would sell and they could make commissions. Any thoughts?

Your experiences/ observations would be appreciated.
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Nanska
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Username: Nanska

Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 7:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you read, " The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit" by Thomas J. Sugrue? I am currently reading it, and am on Chap. 7 " Class, Status, and Residence: The Changing Geo. of Black Detroit". I was born and raised on the West Side, and had no idea what my grandparents/parents must have gone through to buy/rent housing in the "white areas" of the D. They just never talked about it. The book is very informative and covers how both black and white realtors ( or if they were black "realists" ( only whites could be 'realtors') took advantage of the highly-charged racial climate of the time to their financial benefit. Good luck on your research and look forward to anybody posting their or family members experiences/obversations about the changing racial geography in Detroit.
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Mikeg
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Post Number: 376
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

...for whites to move farther away to form their own school districts.




Gee, the half-million folks who in 1930 were living outside the City of Detroit in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties must have been too stupid to create their own school systems. Somehow, that didn't keep those areas from growing, because by 1940, 653,000 folks lived in those areas and by 1950, the number of tri-county residents outside the CoD had grown to 1,077,000.

It is intellectually dishonest to examine the reasons for the depopulation of the CoD without also acknowledging all of the reasons for the long history of growth in the tri-county region outside the CoD.
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 1760
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Dearborn grandparents must have been early white flight pioneers when they bought and built on a double lot in Dearborn in the early 1920s. Could it have been that they were so intuitive that they just knew Detroit would degenerate to its current chaotic state or become predominately black as early as more than eighty years ago?
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Janesback
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Username: Janesback

Post Number: 145
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In port cities, when immigrants first got off the boats, many went to neighborhoods that were predominantely the same people they left in the old country. The Irish stayed on their side, the Italians on theirs, the Germans opted for cities on the Mississippi and avoided port cities.

I think immigrants to this country felt secure and safe around people who looked like them and spoke their language. You can't really blame them, they arrived with little money and few personal contacts or connections.

I cant blame people , many who left the cities for a bigger ranch home in the suburbs. Automobiles allowed people to move, factories supplied jobs, the men were back from the war. Women stayed home and had babies (remember this was the late 40's and 50's).

I dont think people who left the city, for what ever reason should be all classified as having one certain agenda.
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Rustic
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Post Number: 2945
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SW, good topic, but take care to DEFINE what you mean by "white flight" and work from there, otherwise you will get muddled up in discussing off topic issues. Start as narrow as possible and expand your definition only if necessary. IMO white flight was a very specific phenomenon to a specific time period that had very specific drivers -- discussing generalities will not get you where you want to go.
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Taj920
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Post Number: 152
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One big reason for "flight" was the City was out of room in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Real estate was more expensive in the City, people could get cheaper houses in the suburbs. that's why Eastland and Northland were built right on the border of Detroit because there cheap, undeveloped land there
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Rustic
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Post Number: 2946
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

taj, imo you are mistaken in two things you wrote. (1) it wasn't until the mid to late 60's that Detroit filled in, in the late 40's early 50's most of detroit within a mile or two of its northern and western borders was not yet filled in (it was zoned for development and many areas had streets already planned, but it wasn't filled in yet). (2) I don't think suburban houses were ever generally less expensive than Detroit houses, in fact IMO it has been quite the opposite for roughly 50 years and probably longer than that.
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Barnesfoto
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Post Number: 2748
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hudson's also had a hand in the residential development around where they built Eastland and Northland. They wanted to insure that those living nearby were affluent enough to shop at their stores.
My grandfather was from a small town, and did not like city life, so after a stint in a boarding house at 62 Alfred, then an apartment on Grand River, he moved to Redford Twp, then rural, in the thirties.
As noted above, land was cheaper, and taxes were low, so living in the suburbs was a cost saving venture for many.
White flight had been going on for decades when school bussing was instituted in 1976. It did noticeably speed up white flight in the neighborhood where I grew up.
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Erikto
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Post Number: 475
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know I keep mentioning the same book on these race/city issues threads but here I go again- there's a book called 'Riot In The Model City' (I don't know how to underline here!), and it is nothing if not thoroughly researched. The bibliography alone might point Swillson to some great sources.
Online, this isn't supremely informative but it has some interesting anecdotal remarks on who was moving into what areas in Chicago; gangresearch.net. There are certainly enough self-aggrandizing references to protecting one's neighbourhood, but there seems to be a subtext of promoting racial homogeneity in various neighbourhoods. It's more than black, white and Latino people not getting along, it seems that Mexicans and Puerto Ricans had a lot of rival gangs for a while. One of the white gangs called themselves the Gaylords. I wonder if that was modelled after Johnny Cash's "Boy Named Sue" get-tough ethic?
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Janesback
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Post Number: 146
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are certainly enough self-aggrandizing references to protecting one's neighbourhood, but there seems to be a subtext of promoting racial homogeneity in various neighbourhoods
------------------------------ -------

Thats important to people when moving across the state or country. Its well known that in todays real estate market that the gay community look on the Internet or specifically ask for someone who is knowledgable about locations of neighborhoods that have a fair amount of gay people. I would think that gays would want to live among other gays for ability to establish friendships as well as for the safety factor.

Also, theres really nothing wrong with wanting to live and work with people you have common interests in. This is just one segment in our world, and I chose to use it as an example. Hope thats OK?
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Ragtoplover59
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Post Number: 15
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to tell you of two other groups of people that left Detroit, Neither group was because of "White Flight", One was because of "Job Flight". My Father worked for a Company that left the area for Cheaper Wages in Ok. Workers there made Half of the Pay they Had in Detroit. We ended up leaving because 2 years after that Factory left,Dad still could not Find a Job and with a wife from Tenn. and a large Family there Begging her to come Back,,He didnt see the reason to Hang on to Detroit any longer?
He moved us without even a Job Prospect and Landed a Job the 1st day here with a company that was tied to the Auto Industry back in Detroit?
He Never Liked the Fact that he was doing Detroit's work,so far from "his" Home!

The other Group was Due to "Retiring Workers".
Many people Came to Detroit for jobs, they all were not Born there! I know 5 Familys that were lucky enough to keep the Jobs they had until they Retired, Then they "Returned" Home to enjoy the Rest of the life they had left!

Thats 5 Familys I Met in my Neighbourhood that had ties to Tenn also (like my Mom did) and all live within 25 miles of me here. The jobs they Retired from include , Strohs, A&P, Budd and Chrysler.
All good Money making jobs and all kept their jobs until retirement, then finish out the lifelong Dream of easy livin in a Nice Place.
I want to add that they didn't pack up and move the whole Family, just the ones that were from here to begin with came back, the Kids ( my Friends) still live in Detroit, they dont want to Leave from their "Home".

My point (sorry I took so long to get to it)is that if I know "5" Familys here, that I Never knew until I met them in Detroit to begin with, How Many other Familys are out there with the Same reason for moving away? and with so many areas to move to, other then just Middle Tenn,you can see that the country has room to spread out.
So I'm talking about a Very Large number of People that left Detroit that had Nothing to do with "White Flight"
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Ragtoplover59
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Post Number: 16
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont mean to imply that "White Flight" didn't happen?
Just wanted to add that Many left for "Normal" reasons too!
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Lowell
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Post Number: 3314
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Sugrue book is the bible on Detroit segregation. Get it and read it before starting because the racist legacy of Detroit's plight is set out chapter, line and verse.

Care has to be taken to disentangle 'white flight', which says to me Euro-Americans running away from from non-Euro ethnicities because of racially motivated attitudes, from other decisions for leaving the city of Detroit to its surrounding communities. The choice could have been the convenience of expressways, proximity to nature, availability of new homes particularly in the post war housing shortage era, financial advantages, proximity to new shopping and on and on. Maybe it was a mix of them plus racism.

By the early '50's the City of Detroit was at its pinnacle and busting at the seams. The entire metropolis was growing with it. From developers POV, it was built out.

I'd be interested if anyone knows the etymology origin of the phrase - I would guess it originated in the sixties. The wiki [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W hite_flight]on the term is actually pretty good as is the related 12th Street Riot wiki [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1 2th_Street_Riot]. Disclaimer: I know that Wikipedia always suspect but what an amazing and continually improving project this has become!
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 373
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

II would think a larger push than crosstown busing were the block busters in the 1970's. They would create buzzes going in white churches about how others were moving in, and told pretty much lies about how these people were. It would make sense to believe that anyone moving to a neighborhood would have the same sense of values regardless of race, but the block busters would spin tales of how property values would soon become terrible, and 'Whitey' got the hell out.

BTW, I am white, and I grew up with many white folks who still chose to live in the City. We all refer to those who left as Whitey (now sometimes we even call the black folks who move far out that too)! Whitey are those who run as part of the flight as opposed to those who don't.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 1874
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any discussion of Detroit's populaton loss by whatever name one wants to call it be it white flight or flight or whatever must include crime and it's effect on the city. Crime was and remains a huge reason why Detroit is still losing population.
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Janesback
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Username: Janesback

Post Number: 147
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Citylover, thats right. Thats why people now are buying into these " gated" communities. I don't particularily like them, but again, different strokes for different folks. Many retirees like them, as well as many Northerners moved south, to Florida, Arizona and Texas, a.k.a Snowbirds.

The term "empty nester" applies to reasons why people move as well. People who raised their kids, wait till they move out to go to college or get married end up with a large house that is equipped with extra rooms that aren't used. I guess they want to get smaller homes with a smaller tax value to save money after they retire.

All these things add up to why people move, but crime plays a very crucial decision on why they move. I understand, especially when senior citizens feel like prisoners in their own homes. They are vulnerable , older and feel unsafe. I understand their reasons. Why stay in a neighborhood where they are afraid, insecure and locked in?
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Jeduncan
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Post Number: 5
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read that article on The Urban Crisis for my Urban Studies class! anyways...

Property prices was a big part of it... along with jobs moving, and lets not forget redlining and blockbusting.
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Mikeg
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Post Number: 377
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding the impact that rising crime rates have on the loss of population, you ought to read the posting at 12:17 pm today by Aschar76 on this thread.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 3100
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Janesback, I have to respectfully disagree with you on the Germans and the Port City thing. The largest German populations in the midwest were in Milwaukee, Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland and Cincinnati, all quite a distance from the Mississippi River.

Although St. Louis and Minneapolis would be the major cities on the Mississippi with large German populations that come to mind.
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Janesback
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Post Number: 148
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, hello there. I respectfully disgree with you, but its great to disagree. The poorer people, the Irish for the most were fleeing Ireland because of the famine and religious persecution. The Germans left mostly for religious reasons. They werent starving like many Irish .

The Germans were people of some wealth. Not the whole population, but many had some means. They , the Germans bypassed port cities for the Mississippi, and established breweries along the Mississippi. St. Louis, and on up. The port cities, such as New York attracked workers to the factories and sadly lived in horrific tenaments. The only reason I knew this information is my research on a paper in college that dealt with German immigration. Many Germans went to Texas as well and established towns such as New Braunsfels and Fredricksburg. Many , literally thousands were "sponsored" by wealthy Germans who paid for their transport and assisting them getting set up. Thousands of Germans went thru the sponsorship program. I recently found my great great grandfathers immigration papers from Galveston, Texas.......kinda cool. I hope we didnt get off the topic too far..... :-)

Thanks for the heads up though, its good to learn here as well. Thanks, Jane
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Gistok
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Post Number: 3102
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jane, as a German immigrant myself, I think that with Germans still the largest single minority in the USA (over 50 million folks in the USA claim Germany ancestry)...

There was WAY more than enough immigration for the Mississippi valley as well as the Great Lakes states, Texas, Pennsylvania (the Pennsylvania "Deutsch"), New York, California, the Carolina's (Wachovia and the Moravians) and many many other regions.

Also, most all the Great Lakes states also boast Germans in the top 3 ancestral immigrant populations of each state.
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Livernoisyard
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There were also sizable German-speaking immigrants from other countries than Germany. Namely, the eastern reich, Switzerland, and Bohemia. Milwaukee was over 40% "German" during the early 1900s.
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Rustic
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Post Number: 2947
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

git yer own Gruppenraum you three, this thread is about weisser flug ...
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Janesback
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Post Number: 149
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Rustic, ,I will adhere to the rules for posting....... :-)
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Gistok
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Post Number: 3103
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Die Deutsche Völker auswanderung von Deutschland, Oesterreich, der Schweiz, die Donau-Deutsche von Rumanien, Jugoslavien, Ungarn, die Sudeten-Deutsche aus Tschekoslovakei, die Ost-Preussen aus Polen, die Volga Deutschen aus Russland, und die Siebenburgen-Sachsen aus Transylvanien... alle diese Völker sind weiss, und die sind alle ausgewandert... so natürlich ist es alles "weisser flug". :-)

(Ain't never seen Lowell's spell check light up so much yellow before...) :-)
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Mikeg
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Post Number: 378
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Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ich mag "weisse bier" besser als "weisser flug"!
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 4730
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 3:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, there were quite a measurable amount of people who left the city for reasons other than race (or primarily race), but that was a minority. Want to see a great example of white flight? Try Livonia going from a population of a little over 17,000 in 1950 to 110,000 just 20 years later. Or Warren going from a 1950's population of 727 to 179,000 in 1970, all the while both continuing to maintain white (and specifically largely assimilated/non-ethnic white) populations of over 90%. These are the two most striking examples of where many of the people went that fled Detroit. While the story of Detroit's decline is far more complicate than White Flight, alone, it makes up a significant part of its history.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 1875
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess you did nor read the link provided by Ashcar on this thread LMich..............or maybe you did.........in which case I am glad to see you ascribe to the effective method of never letting facts getting in the way of your argument.
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Mikeg
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Post Number: 382
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Or Warren going from a 1950's population of 727 to 179,000 in 1970...




Lmichigan, why don't you do a little fact-checking before you type.

The population of Warren Township was already 25,000 in 1940 before the Detroit Tank Arsenal at Martin Rd. and Van Dyke and the Hudson Ordnance Plant at Nine Mile and Mound were built. These plants added to the already surging growth which really got started when the Dodge Plant was built around 1937 on Mound Rd. north of Eight Mile. ~40 years of continuous industrial, commercial and residential growth resulted in the township of Warren becoming the city of Warren with a population that peaked somewhere in the 180,000 range during the 1970's.

These figures do not include the population of the city of Center Line, which has always been surrounded by Warren Township/City. In 1940, Center Line had a population of 4,000, which peaked in the early 1970's at slightly over 10,000.

The biggest reason for the population growth in southern Macomb County was the expansion of the industrial corridor between Mound and Van Dyke that stretches from 8 Mile Rd. all the way to Hall Rd. That is where the jobs growth was during the post-war period through the 1970's.
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Michmeister
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Das wäre nicht "Weisser Flug" sondern "Weisser Flucht"!:-), auch nicht weisse bier sondern Weissbier!, und das geniesst man mit einem schüss Waldmeister (woodruff) sirup nach Berliner Art.... :-)
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Gistok
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikeg, I can't speak for Lmich, but Almanac's do list the 727 figure for Warren. I assume that they meant only that area around 13 1/2 Mile and Mound (old Warren). Almanac's don't explain the incorporation of the the township by the city.
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Mikeg
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Post Number: 383
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't want to speak for him either - nor for any of those folks who like to spin the myth that there was nothing in the "suburbs" until they were populated by white bigots who abandoned the City of Detroit and created their own school systems out in the wilds of Macomb County.

Lmichigan knows full well that the city of Warren - which according to him also had a population of 179,000 in 1970 - contains 35 square miles. Common sense should tell him that the 727 figure for 1950 is not a comparable number. An 1874 census of the complete Warren Township, including Warren Village plus what would become Center Line, showed that they already had 2,214 residents.

Yes, the so-called "white flight" of the 1960s and 70s was a real phenomenon that was driven by irrational racial fears, rising crime rates and unscrupulous real estate agents, but I would posit that the demographics and job growth patterns were such that most, if not all, of that growth in the suburbs would have occurred anyway, only later.

In the past, the outward population migration from the CoD was generally offset by new immigrants and job seekers. That replacement process could not have kept up with the accelerated outward migration of the 60's and 70's even if it had not been slowed for the same reasons that caused the existing residents to pull up stakes.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did forget to take into account incorporation and such, but be it 700 or 22,000 the fact is the city absolutely blew up overnight. This wasn't an accident. We're talking increases in population you barely see among these new boomtowns in the West and South. And, you obviously didn't read my post, as I made crystal clear that Detroit's population decline is much more complicated than what has become known as White Flight. But, again, White Flight played a very measurable and significant role in the decline of Detroit, and anyone who denies that would be a fool.

(Message edited by lmichigan on November 19, 2006)
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Citylover
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wouldn't flight of any kind play a role in the decline of any city? The ongoing debate on this forum has been what caused that flight. I maintain that(atleast)on this forum crime is usually not mentioned and that any mention of flight must include crime as a cause.
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Barnesfoto
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course. Crime, Blockbusting, Racism, economic development outside the city, the antagonistic and corrupt "leadership" of Coleman Young and his cronies...lots of factors.
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Mikeg
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Post Number: 384
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Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I did forget to take into account incorporation and such, but be it 700 or 22,000 the fact is the city absolutely blew up overnight. This wasn't an accident.




You made the mistake of relying on Wikipedia and since the incorrect data posted there coincided with your biased viewpoint, you ran with it.

Yes, Warren experienced unprecedented population growth in the 1950-1970 time period and it was no accident. However, unlike the kind of sinister "accident" you infer, no other Township or City in the state had the kind of major industrial growth that Warren and it's two adjacent neighbors experienced during that same time frame: Chrysler Warren Stamping, Chrysler Sterling Stamping, Chrysler Center Line MoPar, LTV Redstone Missile Plant, TRW Steering Systems, Ford Sterling, Ford Van Dyke, and last, but certainly not least, the GM Tech Center and it's 25,000 employees. Add the facts that Warren's farmland was easily subdivided and that Detroit Water was readily available and you have the recipe for explosive population growth.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 2:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why are you concentrating just on Warren? This happened in Livonia to nearly the same degree, and even in many other suburbs at what would still be an astronomical growth rate over that same period, most of which would be considered primarily residential suburbs (bedroom communities). You are not seriously going to try and tell me that White Flight (i.e. those with the wherewithal that disinvested/divested in the city) didn't play a significant role in the declining population of Detroit, are you? You seem to be denying that it played any role. All I'm arguing is that it played a significant and obvious role. You protest too much; you're not meeting me halfway.
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Danny
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Once again, what triggers white flight from the city to the suburbs?

1. SEGREGATION

2. XENOPHOBIA

3. ECONOMIC FLIGHT

4. GROWING BLACK AND HISPANIC COMMUNITIES

5. VIOLENT CRIME

6. VACANT AND ABANDON HOMES AND BUSINESSES

7. POOR SCHOOL DISTRICTS

8. CORRUPT CITY LEADERS

It happen is Detroit, Chicago, New York City, Buffalo, Cincinatti, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Camden, Spring Valley N.Y. Jersey City, Atlantic City, Atlanta, Miami, Montgomery, Memphis, Washington D.C. The Suburbs of Prince Georges County Maryland, Baltimore, Chicagoland South Suburbs of Cook County, Compton and East Compton CA. and some parts of LA county suburbs, Little Rock, Inkster, Southfield, Cicero, Oak Park, Royal Oak Township, Ecorse, River Rouge, Lathrup Village, Flint, Pontiac, Newark, Romulus, Gary, Hammond and many more.

(Message edited by danny on November 20, 2006)
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Miketoronto
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Post Number: 351
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

White flight is everywhere. It may not be as bad as in Detroit or other cities.

But even Toronto has white flight. I know tons of Italians who have fled the old inner suburbs of Toronto because they did not want to live near people of different races.

One of my friends mothers is just beside herself actually, because he just bought a condo in Toronto and she does not want him moving from their white little outter suburb into Toronto where he will have Asian and black neigbours in addition to whites.

White flight is everywhere.
Go into certain inner city Toronto neighbourhoods like The Beaches, or Bloor West Village, and probably 95% of the population is white.

And I feel we are getting more segregated then before. When I was growing up my school was much more mixed culturally then it is now. My old class photos looks like the united nations. However now my old schools are mostly one race.
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Swiburn
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Post Number: 25
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My "reverse" experiences with white flight. My family rented part of a duplex on Field St in Detroit in the early l950s. After a year, a new landlord, an African American, kicked them out because he said they weren't black! Before that residence, they were turned down for an apartment on Dexter because they weren't Jewish. They regretfully moved to the suburbs after a third incident-being turned down for a house on E.Grand Blvd.
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Mtm
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Username: Mtm

Post Number: 143
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One reason for flight from Detroit that I'm surprised I haven't seen (excuse me if I missed it)was the '67 riot. Even many who weren't close to the action or otherwise affected, took flight.
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Zulu_warrior
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mayor Young told all the criminals to hit 8 Mile road and dont come back.

What does that say about white flight? :-)
------------------------------ -------------------
In all seriousness, a corollary to this question would be, Why didnt Blacks move out to the suburbs then at the same rate?

Was the quality of life better for them as whites left in Detroit?

Were there restrictions and or covenents that discouraged this from happening until the 1980's?

Among the suburbs, why were Inkster and Pontiac and Mt Clements the first suburbs to have sizeable African American populations and not other places?

How is it a city like Dearborn can go from nearly all white to largely Arab and almost no African Americans in between?

How is it now that people are fleeing the inner ring suburbs and moving to North Oakland County or Livingston County when there's little wrong with the cities that they are in now?

These any many other questions are essential to rounding out this answer so deliberately sought...
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Zulu_warrior
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Post Number: 3098
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mayor Young told all the criminals to hit 8 Mile road and dont come back.

What does that say about white flight? :-)
------------------------------ -------------------
In all seriousness, a corollary to this question would be, Why didnt Blacks move out to the suburbs then at the same rate?

Was the quality of life better for them as whites left in Detroit?

Were there restrictions and or covenents that discouraged this from happening until the 1980's?

Among the suburbs, why were Inkster and Pontiac and Mt Clements the first suburbs to have sizeable African American populations and not other places?

How is it a city like Dearborn can go from nearly all white to largely Arab and almost no African Americans in between?

How is it now that people are fleeing the inner ring suburbs and moving to North Oakland County or Livingston County when there's little wrong with the cities that they are in now?

These any many other questions are essential to rounding out this answer so deliberately sought...
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 817
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu_warrior, I think most of Dearborn is still largely white.
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Eastsidedog
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.city-data.com/city/ Dearborn-Michigan.html
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Cman710
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Username: Cman710

Post Number: 25
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Swillson, while the book is about Canarsie, Brooklyn, and not Detroit, I would nonetheless recommend that you read "Canarsie: The Jews and Italians of Brooklyn Against Liberalism." While the book focuses primarily on politics, the book gives insights into an ethnically changing neighborhood, and thus gives good background to a paper about white flight. That's all besides the fact that it is an EXCELLENT book, and an easy read.

Here's a link to it on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Canarsie -Italians-Brooklyn-Against-Lib eralism/dp/0674093615/sr=1-1/q id=1164053669/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/ 102-8059399-7293739?ie=UTF8&s= books
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 354
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would look at Joburg, South Africa. Detroit and Joburg have similar white flight problems. Its very interesting how close they are in that regard.

So I would read up on Joburgh.

Its an interesting topic, because everytime I visit Detroit, I always think about what a stupid move it was for people to leave inner city Detroit. When you look at the houses there it really makes you think why would anyone ever want to leave those nice big houses.

(Message edited by miketoronto on November 20, 2006)
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Danny
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Post Number: 5222
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Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu_warrior,


HERE'S MY ANSWER TO YOU QUESTION:

In all seriousness, a corollary to this question would be, Why didnt Blacks move out to the suburbs then at the same rate?

ANSWER: SEGREGATION AND XENOPHOBIA

Was the quality of life better for them as whites left in Detroit?

ANSWER: YES, WHEN THEY HAVE UNITY WITHIN THEMSELVES AND NO WHEN THEY SOMETIMES SELF-DESTRUCT THEMSELVES, OTHER PEOPLE AND CORRUPT THE COMMUNITIES.




Were there restrictions and or covenents that discouraged this from happening until the 1980's?

ANSWER: YES, ONLY BY INVINCIBLE SEGREGATION. BLACK FOLKS ARE WELCOMED TO MOVED TO ANY SUBURBS. HOWEVER THEY MAY BE FACED BY DELUSIONAL RACIST WHITE FOLKS WHO WANT ANY BLACK FAMILY TO MOVE OUT RIGHT AWAY FOR THEY FEARED THAT IT WOULD DRIVE THEIR PROPERTY VALUES DOWN AND STIR UP TROUBLE.


Among the suburbs, why were Inkster and Pontiac and Mt. Clemens the first suburbs to have sizeable African American populations and not other places?

ANSWER: ONCE AGAIN RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS, PROPERTY GAINS AND JOB SOURCE. BLACK FOLKS HAVE ARRIVED IN MT. CLEMENS SINCE THE MID 1800'S FOR A GOOD JOB SOURCE AND EXCELLENT HOUSING OPPOTUNITIES BUT RESTRICTIVE CONVENTS KEPT THEM FROM MOVING TO OTHER AREAS WHERE THEY ARE MOSTLY WHITE UP TO THIS DAY.

BLACK-FOLKS ARRIVED TO INKSTER IN THE EARLY 1910'S THANKS TO HENRY FORD FOR THEY WERE HIRED TO WORK AT HIS MOTOR COMPANY AND ROUGE PLANTS. TODAY THEY ALL OVER INKSTER BUT THEY KEEP THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS IN SHAPE.

How is it a city like Dearborn can go from nearly all white to largely Arab and almost no African Americans in between?

ANSWER: DEARBORN AT THE TIME OF MAYOR ORVILLE HUBBARD WHO WAS A RACIST GUY WHO KEPT THE CITY WHITE AND CLEAN AS POSSIBLE AND KEEP BLACKS OUT! HOWEVER HE DIDN'T SAW THAT THERE WAS A SMALL YEMENI ARAB MUSLIM COMMUNITY ON DIX AND VERNON WHICH IS NOW BEING CALLED "ARABIAN VILLAGE" ARABS HAD ARRIVED IN THE AREA SINCE 1910 WHEN HENRY FORD BROUGHT THEM OVER TO THE AREA TO LET THEM WORK IN HIS MOTOR COMPANY AND ROUGE PLANTS. ALMOST A 100 YEARS LATER ARABS FROM ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST QUICKLY CAME TO DEARBORN TO FIND WORK NOT JUST THE YEMENI BUT LEBANESE, SYRIA, PALESTINE, IRAQIS, IRANIANS, TURKISH, KUWAITI, SAUDI ARABIAN, EGYPTIANS, LYBIANS AND MANY MORE. THEY QUICKLY MOVED UP TO W. WARREN FROM LONYO ST. TO THE DETROIT BORDER AND BEYOND SETTING UP SHOPS AND BUYING UP AND BUILDING NEWER HOMES. BLACK'FOLKS NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO OCCUPY THOSE HOMES IN THE DEARBORN NEIGHBORHOODS.

How is it now that people are fleeing the inner ring suburbs and moving to North Oakland County or Livingston County when there's little wrong with the cities that they are in now?

ANSWER: MOST WHITE FOLKS FROM GENERATION X WANTED TO MOVED FURTHER AWAY FROM TO EX-URBS TO GET AWAY FROM BLACKS AND OTHER ETHNIC PEOPLE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. MOST OF THEM HAVE NOTICED THAT THE BLACK FLIGHT FROM DETROIT TO INNER RING SUBURBS IS GAINING GROUND. BLACK-FOLKS FROM DETROIT WANT TO GET AWAY FROM THE EVERYDAY VIOLENT CRIME, POOR CITY SERVICES AND POOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS SYSTEM. BUT THE WHITE FOLKS SEEN THIS AS " OH OH!" WE BETTER DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. THEY COULD EITHER BE RACIST AND PUT THREATS TO A BLACK FAMILY WHO ARE LIVING NEXT DOOR TO YOU OR MOVE OUT. FOR SO FAR MOST WHITE-FOLKS ARE STILL WITHIN THE XENOPHOBIC MINDS NOT TO DIVERSIFY THEIR ENVIROMENTS WITH BLACKS OR ANY OTHER ETHNIC FOLKS EXCEPT IN TEMPORARY GATHERINGS.

Now Zulu Warrior,

Do that answer your question. For the black-folks or any other ethnic folks are destined to live where they want to live. As I watch them hit 8 Mile Rd.

(Message edited by danny on November 21, 2006)
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Swillson
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Post Number: 6
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 2:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, I never expected such a response. Thanks everyone. Now, I have some book shopping to do....
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Fortress_warren
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Post Number: 210
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I lived at 7 and Southfield in 1954, dad got a job at the Tech Center. It was 45 minutes each way, on a good day, no blizzard, to get to work. We moved a mile away from the Tech Center. 7 and Southfield was as lily white as Warren.

Mikeg is right about all the jobs in Macomb county. There must have been 100k created in 20 years, from 1950 to 1970. During that time, Warren was the fastest growing city in the US.

The last big factories were built in Detroit in the 1930's. After that, nothing of size was built. Except for Poletown, and by then it was too little, too late.

Except for the tech boom of the late 90's, SF has been losing population. The few blacks left are out in Hunter's Point, where the shipyard used to be. No reason to pass through there on the way to somewhere else. It's up against the bay. So most residents don't have contact with blacks.

People leave because they can't afford a house and the school system is so bad most of the teachers send their kids to private schools. Hipsters, like a lot on this forum, are who live there. It's not white flight, it's breeder flight.

If Detroit was 100% white back in the early 50's, it still would have lost population, the jobs weren't there. Neither was the cheap new house, or better schools. As the middle class left, you would have a greater concentration of people like Eminem, before he was famous. That would prompt the rest of the middle class to boogie as well.
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Barnesfoto
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

funny, I've yet to meet anyone who left because of Eminem (who incidentally, spent part of his childhood in Warren!)
Zulu asked "How is it a city like Dearborn can go from nearly all white to largely Arab and almost no African Americans in between?"
There has been an influx of African Americans into not only Dearborn, but other formerly "lily-white" ring suburbs like Warren and Reford Twp, where my parents live.
(Dearberners tell me that most of the Arab population is concentrated west of Greenfield)
Many "hipsters" eventually become "breeders"
(thus, breedsters?) and out of my "breedster" friends, 1 pair moved to Saginaw, 1 pair would move to Warren if they could,1 pair moved to Mexico City, the rest, (well over half) have stayed in the city.
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Fortress_warren
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Username: Fortress_warren

Post Number: 215
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eminem lived in a trailer park, 8 and Mound. He was white trash, pre-fame. Get lots of them together, middle class leaves.

10% of the houses on the street where I grew up are black families. No white flight, most houses are for sale because the 80 something died or is moving to a smaller place. Outside Florida, Warren has the oldest population in the country for a city it's size, I think Livonia was second.

Why can't your friends move to Warren? Lots of houses for sale and prices coming down.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 654
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm glad Zulu brought it up. "White flight" is thrown around so often, but why did so many middle-class blacks leave as well? I think "middle class flight" is much more appropriate, at least today--because that is what is missing, black and white, from Detroit.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Focusonthed, you're right, it's always been a class issue. The black middle class doesn't want to live with black trash anymore than the white middle class wants to live with white trash.

Out on the left coast, everything is sorted by class, all the races live together in whatever class they are in. You got the money, you can live anywhere you want.
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Danny
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's amazing that Warren went from a next booming and first biggest suburb with a population of 170,000 in 1970 to 136,000 within 30 years. Loss of jobs and a fast growing immigrant population have contributed to the decrease of white population and their flight from Warren. Meanwhile despite the city's BAD REP. towards Blacks. Warren's Black population had increased quickly from 3,000 in 2000 to almost 10,000 in 2006.
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Taj920
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Username: Taj920

Post Number: 154
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Warren's population decline is due more to empty-nesters than anything else. People who had four and five kids in the 1960s and 1970s are still living there but their kids have moved off. The city had one of the highest percentage's of length of owner-occupied homes in the 2000 Census. Warren's number of housing units have probably increased since 1970.
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Zulu_warrior
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Post Number: 3100
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To Danny:

Bayete!

You have spoken the truth, xenophobically speaking...

The question is: will they hear?
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Fortress_warren
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Post Number: 220
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Taj920, you shopped at Tech Plaza, didn't you? You nailed it. There were about 70 kids on the street, probably only 10 still live in Fortress_Warren. Most of them moved to 99 Mile Road, and the rest moved to Cali like me, and my two siblings. I can do a zabasearch and see who is still living in the Fortress. Still lots of people from the 50's.
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Barnesfoto
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I worked near the tech center in the early 90's. Even then you could see that the population was quite up in years...Wish I had a dollar for every time I was stuck driving 10 mph under the speed limit in what I called a "Warren Road Rally"- two elderly drivers driving next to each other at exactly the same speed, down Hoover or 12 mile. At the Chinese Buffet on Van Dyke, my coworkers and I would amuse ourselves laughing at the antics of the 70 something bluehairs, who always seemed to be poking through the Kung Pao Shrimp and shrieking
"THERE'S NOT ANY SHRIMP LEFT IN HERE!"
The old village part of Warren had a couple degrees of charm, but the rest of the place was dreadfully dull. If my friends move there, (they can't seem to sell their place in Hamtramck) I doubt that I will ever go vist them. The place is also full of speed traps.
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Fortress_warren
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Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Barnesfoto, those were ex-8th Air Force pilots in Warren, they were flashing back to flying the B-17 over Berlin; "got to keep a close formation, close it up, close it up". Otherwise the germans will shoot us to pieces. And they did.

I lived there for 22 years, I don't recall anyone referring to the old village part. Let me guess, around the Executive Inn?

The only speed trap I remember was an unmarked '73 Plymouth Satellite on the frontage drive on 696 between Ryan and Mound. Otherwise, it was go for it. Except on Martin, the old man got nailed there a couple of times.
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

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Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An anecdote to illustrate what seems to be, even in 2006, the predominant view:

I have White customers with school-age children who exchanged a beautiful home in Sterling Heights for a shitty beige McMansion in a Washington Township cornfield. When I asked why they moved, they said they "were becoming a minority in the old neighborhood" and "couldn't believe the number of 'Chaldeans'" at their kids' school.

I'm positively floored every time I hear comments like this, but honestly, it seems as though it's been programmed into most White people.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 7146
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Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bucked that trend. I put my house on the market when the Eric-c's moved nearby.

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