Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Wayne T. Jackson « Previous Next »
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Blessyouboys
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Post Number: 525
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just looking at this beautiful home in Palmer Woods when I recognized the name as the same sleazy faith-healing "bishop" frequently found on channel 38 at 2am.
http://info.detnews.com/pix/photogalleries/newsgallery/PalmerWoods_HomeTour/index4.htm

fda

hg


Assuming they're the same, how does this guy have this much money and why does no one say anything about it?

Disgusting.
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Viziondetroit
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Post Number: 949
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Say anything about what? and why? Is he doing something illegal?

I'm not a big fan of Great Faith Ministries, but he has been preaching for a long time and has a great following. I've never heard anything negative about him or his ministries.

As long as he isn't stealing money from the church, doing something illegal...what's the beef?
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Bussey
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't greed a sin?
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Zulu_warrior
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So is bearing false witness against thy neighbor...
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Viziondetroit
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just for the sake of conversation... based on the "facts" in this thread.... everyone that lives in that area is guilty of the greed sin? Or is it because he has the biggest house? Was the original owner a greed sinner? and John Sally? Just wondering.

I really just hate the fact that people think minister's with nice houses and cars are all pimps and hustler's. In most cases the church determines their salaries and trustees approve it and oversee the finances of the church. It is a business just like every other business... a non profit one.
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1953
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the general sentiment expressed herein is that religious leaders are suppose to live modestly, as they should devote the greatest share of their earnings to ventures demonstrating their faith, such as caring for the poor, sick, or elderly. For a church leader to have the largest house in all the city, particularly when he is a faith healer as such, seems inappropriate. It should more appropriately belong to a capitalist, who is less concerned with charity for his fellow man, and more concerned with commerce and industry (though he, too, should be philanthropic in his pursuits, if he is successful).

That said, the guy is a con and made a bunch of money through fraud and people's naivity.

Yes, some church leaders in the past have lived this way; that doesnt make it the ideal.

(Message edited by 1953 on November 25, 2006)
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Gannon
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At least he is living IN the city...met a daughter of a preacher on a train to Chicago a few years back who lived in Bloomfield Hills.


I asked her if she ever felt ODD, leaving the poor neighborhood folk every Sunday and Wednesday to drive back to their suburban digs in their new Mercedes sedan. (boy those people looked UP to this man...even bought him the car, I think)


Then, I hear here of some poor girl who gave the MANY THOUSANDS she saved for a car to her church's building program or some other guilt-trip...I think Blondy passed that along a year or so ago.

How many weak individuals are being fleeced so someone can live on an income multiples higher than the average of their flock? What of the rest of the staff?!


So...this particular pastor might not be outside the legal line...I find it repugnant that men and women of God even appear to have a love and servitude for MONEY instead.


Bearing false witness...how do YOU understand that accusation, Zulu?! Lying to cause their condemnation or conviction? I do not see anything indicating any sort of legal trial here.


One funny thing, I googled the good pastor's name, and found this blog...read down to the last reply.

Always a good witness to threaten anyone who dares speak their opinion...next thing, they'll want to bring down their understanding of the 'five-fold' ministries on this poor girl...which we jokingly used to say was the FIST in these non-lover's arsenal of weaponry.


Don't say anything against the 'man of God'...give me a break. Best way to make certain they go on wandering in their religiosity delusion.
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Gannon
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scroll down to the sub-title "Crocodile Dandy:Detroiters Develop a Fetish for Gators" in this webpage.


So, he's a capitalist as well. Even better if he can write off these $1000 shoes to further keep the church in a 'non' profit status.



(yeah, I've got loads of pent-up anger against any and all forms of religiosity that fly in the face of clear and specific warnings in scripture)
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Viziondetroit
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Post Number: 951
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

as I stated before, I'm not a member of GFM... but where is the deception?

I just like people to prove their points and not go off random assumptions and make general blanket statements.

This forum is a source of information for a lot people. Some people may never encounter or experience things mentioned on this site, and this is this "gospel" to them.

They take it word for word because statements are crafted so well, with "facts" and personal experiences. Just keep that in mind when making these statements. I'm prepared for any backlash and freedom of speech people. Remember that when it comes to your kids and family.

Sorry about that...
If he's a crook... spill it.
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Royce
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Post Number: 1921
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget Joel Osteen.
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Yvette248
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Post Number: 201
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Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While you are quoting "scripture" how about how Abraham, David, Job, and all of those other people in the BIBLE were RICH with HOUSES (thats plural) and lands (also plural). Stop trying to shove your own particular brand of "religion" down the rest of our throats.

p.s. And by the way, why does no one say anything about the catholic priests? This house is no where near the lavishness of Vatican city.
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Viziondetroit
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just about to say something about catholics...
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Gannon
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 5:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I came OUT of the Catholic experience, and abhor their extreme land-holdings and pomposity as well.


So Yvette, you seem to take old testament recordings of God's initial dealings while founding Judaism without considering what Jesus had to say directly about these things in OUR age...this time AFTER the Spirit was released over the earth freely.


This is a common problem...when the Bible is considered perfect and inerrant and written once for all time without regards to the duration of time and the direct teaching of Jesus...things as horrible as the Nazi dealings can be justified, especially if you ONLY read the OT.


Bring on your hit team and smite me, then.

Stone me.

Oh yeah, IF you're clean enough to throw the first rock.

Jesus changed a few things about how the law was to be applied, although he specifically said he wouldn't remove so much as a dot or tittle from it. Curious, isn't it?!

He says he will fulfill them. How could this be? Could it be that things would be different after the Spirit is loosed on the earth?!

We are living in this Free Spirit age now, things are different than when humanity was more brutal and the nation of Israel was growing exponentially. I'm pretty sure brothers don't have to take their deceased sibling's wife to insure that the seed line continues to amplify.

from the New International Version, Matthew,

quote:

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven...for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

...

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?

...

...

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.





Everyone can find something they need if they honestly read the words of Jesus directly.



I included that last paragraph, because I found one that applied directly to me, especially in this instance.

I usually cannot run through the Book without some serious humbling over the extreme awareness of my own mere humanity. There is always room to learn and grow. I hope that grace is not reigned in within my lifetime...although it seems I bump into its edges often enough.


I wonder what the teachers, pastors, priests, and others understand when they read Jesus' words?!
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Spongebob
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe the Bishop should live comfortable. But not that comfortable. The money spent on that palace, could be doing other good works for the lord.
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Bussey
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Post Number: 382
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

amen
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 691
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The money spent on that palace, could be doing other good works for the lord.




He is helping to preserve an historic home, does that count as a good work?
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Yvette248
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Post Number: 203
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon, so how about the meals he donates to senior citizens? Or the coats for kids and toys for tots he does every year? Or the turkey dinners he provides to low income people every Thanksgiving? And just what have you done for anyone lately that makes you superior to him?

Also, since you love New Testament verses, how about:

1. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor? (James)
2. God does not judge by external appearances. (Titus)
3. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves. (Luke 16)
4. He has given to the poor, his righteousness endures forever (2 Corinthians)

Most complaints about rich people come from poor people. Stop being jealous of others who have more than you. Its not "moral" and it does not make you better than them.
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Gannon
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hurray for ANY help that comes to those in need from ANYone!! Great that the church recognizes people at those two holidays...only 363 more empty-belly days to go for some.

I used to partake in that sort of annual holiday give-away until one person waiting in line to be served brought that to my attention, and I realized that those outreaches were largely ineffective simply because for the bulk of the year the ones who weren't seniors didn't have the same option.


Nice one, Yvette, on the assumption that I consider ANY human being superior to any other.


I do not.


I rarely even consider myself, and never compare to any human...my standard is the character of Jesus, a goal which is only approximately approachable if and when the Spirit of God is rushing through me in that wonderful flow.

I'm not even close, far as I can tell...but you know how different it is looking from the inside out. We see the things the jeweler would rather hide under the mounting...and NO gem is without a decent flaw or more! I'm deeply in the 'more' category.


I don't love the New Testament, I love God...that is just one of the best ways I can learn about this Being.

I do consider the Old Testament much more trouble than it is worth, and it should never have been placed at the beginning of the Christian bible.

Most people read a book from the beginning, and many people never quite make it through Numbers and Deuteronomy...and thankfully so, since most of those old dietary, cleanliness, and behavioral rules simply to not apply to our modern civilized world.

I didn't have time to search out the Second Corinthians quote, but you might enjoy my four-translation comparative bible translation of that verse from Luke. Pay close attention to the Living Bible translation.


quote:

King James
And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations





quote:

New International Version
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourself, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings





quote:

Living Bible
But shall I tell you to act this way, to buy friendship through cheating? Will this ensure your entry into an everlasting home in heaven? NO!





quote:

Revised Standard
And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by mean of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations.





First, what sort of habitations do you think are available for the unrighteous to welcome ANYONE into for eternity?!

Second, since the translations are not direct and transparent between languages (thanks to those trying to build their way to God in Babel), the Living Bible usually presents the most open and complete telling...when a word has three or four uses in a similar context they will actually list them ALL...that always made for some uncomfortable chuckles during the public reading of the chapter taught when we sat under my old Messianic Jewish Philosopher guru.

So...rarely does the Living Bible differ so radically from the NIV and RS versions...although thankfully it usually reveals the inadequacies of the ancient, incorrect King James version.

Here the differences are quite remarkable, and follow the seeming intent of the parable...although I haven't the time to pray and meditate on it deeply, I've got to run soon. Looks like the verse follows into the 'faithful in little things, then faithful to the larger' teaching...which does NOT in any way relate with this soon-to-be-fired employee throwing away any portion of his employers deserved income.

I cannot see how the other translation teams found a way to justify that statement, usually the NIV doesn't just take a KJV verse and use it verbatim when the Living differs so radically.

The NIV was translated by people living within capitalism, so perhaps they were already tainted by the Love of Money themselves!

Sincerely,
John


P.S.: Jealousy would entail a desire for something or some status that another has attained...I have NONE of that in my being, thankfully.
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1953
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Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yvette, no one doubts that he's doing good work. I think the question here is how lavish is too lavish?
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Bjl7997
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard he bought the empty lot across the street where Juno's is and supposed to have it redeveloped. Is that true?
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Fury13
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moral of this thread: it's SO much more noble to be poor than to be wealthy.
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Yvette248
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are people in 3rd world countries that think the way the average American lives is too lavish. I saw a documentary a few months ago of an Asian woman who was reduced to tears when she saw how much food was justing laying around in our supermarkets. She was angry that Americans had so much when her country had so little. So lavishness is relative.


The moral to my story is, stop judging other people. "Your" standards are for you. Other people don't have to live according to what "you" think.
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Gannon
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're absolutely right.


I wonder if Lavishness IS one of the signs of a deep Love of Money?!

Maybe that Love plus Pride equals Lavishness...h-m-m-m-n-n, this could be fun.
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Rjlj
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It looks like this guy has taken the Vow of Poverty.
I sure would like to know what charities he gives to and the type of car he drives.
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Janesback
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Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This "bishop" sounds more like a doctor and not so much a minister from what is on his website

" Through his gift of miracles and healing, Bishop Jackson has become world-renowned! As a direct result of his anointing in this area, countless people, worldwide, have been set free from cancer, AIDS, diabetes, tumors, hemorrhaging, drug addiction, poverty, and many other forms of bondage. He has laid hands on innumerable people that have become instantly healed. God has given the Bishop unusual faith to release his anointing over such simple items as, a glass of water, a bar of soap, a handkerchief, a red thread, and olive oil, just to name a few, and the world has watched in awe as God’s people were “miraculously” delivered and set free."


See what I mean, he can heal, just like Tammy Faye and Jim Baker, the ones who had an air conditioned dog house.......thanks, Jane
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Dsmith
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bishop Jackson's main residence is in Bloomfield Township near Lasher and Lone Pine.
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Gannon
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So this is the house he bought for his mother-in-law!


OK, it's fine now. Really.
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Rustic
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(1) he is not the first bishop to live in that house.

(2) he bought it pennies on the dollar compared to what it cost the original bishop's church to build in the first place.

Yay Detroit, where history recycles! (It isn't ALL adaptive reuse and it isn't all black and white.)
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Dusty
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you ever wondered why the Catholic Church is the richest church in the world? Did you wonder why this mansion was built for a Catholic Bishop? This preacher along with others (not all) have tapped into the ignorance of the people. If you do not read the bible for yourself, or know your church history...the wolf will look and smell like a sheep!
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Southwestmap
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Pope lives in a small apartment in the Vatican - which is the corporate headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church.

When Pope John Paul II was elected, he sold his little Ford car, I recall. When he died, he owned nothing personally - no land, no homes. The people in the Vatican just happen to work in great ancient surroundings. They don't own them. They use them, like the General Manager of the Hyatt, who lives in two suites on the top floor.

The members of the church built built the Vatican for the greater glory of God. Such building is not too much admired today - its not just our thing, but in other times, people built beautiful churches and filled them with inspired art because it said something about God to them.

That said, you should know this: I know a Catholic priest who routinely shares some of his suburban parish's Sunday collection with the pastor of a small Black church in Inkster. That pastor freely says that, in the Black churches, unless the pastor shows himself to be very substantial (drives a BMW, wears $1000 suits and has a big grand house) he will always have a small, tenuous church.
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Gannon
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I used to be against the buildings...until someone reminded me that there were worse ways to spend a ton of money OTHER than building an edifice...


...and I realized those structures that endure through time will remind others that someone noticed the presence of something greater than ourselves.


I've been much better about my ex-Catholic self since.
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Gannon
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe the symptom of the deepest ill of modernity is that we're NOT building anything that will last well beyond our time, except a big pile of corporate capitalist trash.


I'm sorry...it all gets back to the Love of Money.

It is so pervasive, we cannot escape it without great effort and persistence.
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Gannon
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dsmith,

Read my first post in this thread! I just noticed yours...and remembered that girl on the train.

If the Bishop has a daughter, and I happened to sit next to HER on that train...then I'm convinced I'm Zelig reincarnate.

That would be too scary a co-incidence.
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Rustic
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zelig or Forrest Gump
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Gannon
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I DO run a lot.

OOPS, it's time NOW.


See ya in an hour, unless you're on my route.
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Dusty
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are absolutely correct, the Priest take an oath of poverty. However, around 1067-1078 the Church Councils of Gerona at the Fourth Latereran Council tithing was applied and enforced to all land under christian rule. All persons including Jews were required to tithe their land or valuables to the Roman Catholic Church. It was an hardship for the people.. the peasants had to give the first tenth of their land to the landlord (which was usually church)and the second tenth to the church, only the pope could release a person from tithing, which in turn the Roman Catholic church became the richest chuch in the world.. off of the back of the people.

Bringing it up to today, the catholic church has evolved from that practice,only to be picked up by many of he chrismatic pentecostal churches. Wayne T.Jackson, Creflo Dollar, T.D Jakes. Bynum Weeks, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Eddie Long, Keith Butler, Parsons, just to name a few have turned the simplicity of the gospel into a "give to get slot machine mentality".

In order to be blessed like them you have to "sow" money and "sow" more money. Sowing a seed of money is nowhere in the bible, but this is the "catch phrase"..sowing is nothing more than a modern day quick fund raiser. The volunteers that was mentioned in the article are told to be blessed, they must "sow" into the man of God's life. This equates to nothing more than free labor! You get poorer they get richer, they say it is because of your faith that you don't have what they have.

It is strange how they all have mansions, and homes outside of the city in which their churches are in. Bentley, Rolls Royce, airplanes, etc. building their empires off of the backs of the people... nothing new under the sun.

Jackson was the preacher who went to New Orleans to bring folks back from Hurricane Katrina. Why didnt they stay at the mansion instead of hotels??? Why did'nt he arrange to fly them back instead of busing them??? Why could'nt they enjoy all the luxuries of the Rolls Royce and expensive clothes??

Instead of building a church congregation in Atlanta, why not build some homes or support schools in the rebuilding efforts in New Orleans???

How about the christian martyrs that are being persecuted in West Africa??? Why not send blankets, food, bibles, clothing to them. I am sure they would not be impressed with the "Bishops" mansion...send clean water to drink!

Jackson and the rest are the modern day "Daddy Grace, Father Divine, and Rev. Ike"...it's all about the benjamins. Look at the life sytle...no difference. You wonder why there are so few men in church...it is because of men like this!
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He doesn't even live there... nor does he even live in the city. Also, I do recall his name being tied to some type of fraud (not him directly, but he was indirectly involved) but I can't recall the exact story right now.

Personally, I'd respect him a little more if he actually lived in that house rather than the house he does live in................
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3420
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found this to be an very interesting topic and article. Many are correct as to we are not to judge or compare ourselves to others.


Deuteronomy 1:17
Do not show partiality in judging; hear both small and great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for judgment belongs to God. Bring me any case too hard for you, and I will hear it.


2 Chronicles 19:6
He told them, "Consider carefully what you do, because you are not judging for man but for the LORD, who is with you whenever you give a verdict.

And this is from my favorite book of the bible I read often.

Proverbs 24:23
These also are sayings of the wise: To show partiality in judging is not good.


The only thing I notice from time to time is the lifestyle of many religious figures I find interesting, but I can't judge them. I don't get why they must be paid for something that is free, but that is the church dealings with there leader. Salvation is free and I will tell anyone how good GOD is just by telling them what he has done for me, others, and to read the bible daily to get an better understanding.

Jesus didn't go around charging people or making you buy things for him to heal you. The word is free and I read it everyday because it is free.Many in other countries don't have that freedom like we do, so instead of judging just There were some men on campus giving away free bibles and I really thought that was nice of them because so many are lost.

If people would just learn how to read the bible, all your questions will be answered. Bishop Jackson has his own accountability to deal with and I have mines. I can't compare myself to him just because I don't have a big home to showcase, fancy clothes, or shoes. Its all about what YOU do in the sight of GOD. GOD blesses us all in different ways and if you desire something, then go to GOD and you will get an answer.

If you can read what I am saying to you, then you are blessed. If you have knowledge and wisdom then use it to the ability that GOD has provided to each and every one of us. Many can't read or see the things so many of us can do. So don't get jealous, have envy, or hate for someone else. It just a blessing that we can do and have the functions we have because many around the world can't even have someone tell them that GOD is good.

Happy Holidays to all.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 637
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

rustic: the first Bishop to live in that house didn't build it at all. The Archdiocese of Detroit received it as a gift (and the poor people of the Diocese didn't pay for it) from the Fisher Family. This from the Detroit 300 website:

"Bishop's Residence
1880 Wellesley Drive in the Palmer Woods Historic District in northwest Detroit
The seven Fisher Brothers became extraordinarily prosperous in the first three decades of Detroit's automobile era building bodies for GM vehicles. They were one of the few Catholic families to derive great wealth from the auto industry. They also appreciated marvelous architecture as illustrated by the Fisher Tower they built for their offices. The Fisher Brothers gave generously to the Catholic Church in Detroit and built Catholic institutions, including the Burtha Fisher Home for the Aged in Southfield.

In the 1920s, Detroit was home to the nation's most rapidly growing Catholic diocese. The Fisher Brothers constructed this massive Tudor Revival home for Bishop Gallagher who headed the diocese. It was to serve as his residence, but also as a place for religious meetings. It was and remains the largest residence in the city of Detroit. It is a two-story brick structure with large diagonal wings flanking the great central structure. Note the many exterior bays, each topped with a parapet capped with masonry and a finial. Religious themes are apparent both on the exterior and the interior. The outside includes medallions, shields and crests as well as a copper statue of the archangel St. Michael fighting Satan. The interior was finished elegantly in oak, stone and masonry with, at one time, the largest collection of Pewabic tile in Michigan. Many religious artifacts and relics were brought by the diocese to augment the interior of this great structure. The architects were from a Boston firm that specialized in ecclesial structures. Bishop Gallagher, a man who greatly expanded the Catholic presence in Detroit in the 1920s, but then had to face the financial constraints of the 1930s, lived here until his death in 1937. For the next 19 years, Cardinal Mooney lived here and presided over Detroit's Catholics. Then Cardinal Deardon lived in this house. He retired from his religious duties in 1980, but remained in the house for eight more years.

In 1989, the Catholic diocese removed religious objects from the home, revealing one aspect of racial change in Detroit. Bishop Gallagher encouraged Norman Duckett to complete training to become a priest in the 1920s but after he ordained him, Gallagher realized that he could not assign an African-American to care for the spiritual needs of Detroit's overwhelming white Catholic population. So Bishop Gallagher created a Jim Crow parish for black Catholics, St. Benedict the Moor. Note the choice of the name. When the Catholic diocese placed this marvelous home on the market in 1989, they sold it to a salaried African-American who could afford the largest and most magnificent home in the city—John Salley of the Detroit Pistons."
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 638
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forgot to add: Cardinal Maida has a house, owned by the Church, in Arden Park, right next to Blessed Sacrament Cathedral. It represents a continued investment in the City.

There is also an apartment at St. John's Conference Center in Plymouththat was built for the Cardinal of the Archdiocese by Robert Pulte. When Cardinal Maida retires he won't take it with him - it will go to the next guy.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SWmap, nonsense. Donations are not made in a vacuum, the AoD could have asked for a MUCH more modest residence and used Fisher generosity in other ways ... this extravagant residence COST the church plenty. It was a choice, of course, to have such a massive residence. It was a big in your face to the regional anticatholic sentiment of the previous 50 years or so: that Catholics were a significant presence in Detroit and powerful and there to stay! Ironic isn't it that it was a mere 50 years that it was used in the way it was originally intended. Yay Detroit!
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 639
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Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are right that it was a "Church Triumphant" era. Catholics were emerging from a time of great discrimination against their immigrant churches and they were an increasing force in civic and business life in American cities. They were using a European model. It was what they knew. As I said above, it isn't a model we would use. But we are looking at another time with our contemporary eyes and judging it.
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Blessyouboys
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Username: Blessyouboys

Post Number: 526
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it looks as though someone was in need of a story...

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=2006611280312
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 7242
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 5:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't be derogatory on her...it's timed for the home tour, that's how PR works. She got some Press Release two weeks ago in her e-mail inbox, and they called her to remind her just last week.


No way the tour wouldn't have this home on it...probably totally coincidental that it came up the same time as our discussion.


Or the Collective Un/Subconscious has its eye on some target on the Bishop's back...and is trying to tell him something important.


Look at the comments in the Freep article...of course, some idiot had to jump in with 'fire Millen', but overall the sentiment either reveals that the person is well-duped in the prosperity movement...or prideful and lusting of another's property...or I just love the first one, because they sound like me.

Heh.
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Dusty
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Username: Dusty

Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I still can't get my mind around why the Hurricane Katrina were'nt invited to stay at the mansion instead of hotels. They were homeless because of a hurricane, not because they were bums. Numerous people white, black, and un-churched opened up their homes to the hurricane victims displaying the love of Christ to strangers. The mansion has how many bedrooms and bathrooms???? Since the Jackson don't live there, what is it used for?? church business?? I thought the people and their needs are "the church" Why could'nt the Katrina survivors enjoy the luxuries of the Rolls Royce expensive clothes, and home cook food instead of eating food donated by the small curches and organizations across the city? Sure he had a dinner at the church for them, but why not treat them like royalty at the mansion since they had been through a living hell?? Why could'nt the Jackson's welcomed them into their mansion in West Bloomfield? many of the caucasians in the suburbs invited the Katrina folks into their spacious homes. This would have truly showed a "Shepards" heart for a people who were and are still hurting.

If this was anyone other than a preacher this would be just another story. However,people are struggling across Detroit even in Palmer Woods to pay their taxes, and here you have the largest home in the city with a tax free status, think how much the taxes on the mansion would help the city of Detroit, oh yeah that's right... they live in W. Bloomfield, the plight of Detroit does not affect them. Let's not forget the church in Detroit has a tax free status also...what a great business strategy!

Just another example of your tithes and offerings at work!
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Shave
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Username: Shave

Post Number: 1241
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a dreadful thread topic...

Anyoldwho, I don't get this issue with not allowing Katrina victims to live in such opulence. I know this may sound harsh. However, a lot of the Katrina victims that were displaced were of a caste of people that would not know how to behave in such a dwelling. I recall reading where families that opened up their homes to these victims were left with trash-filled bedrooms as well as poorly behaved children (who were never taught how to care for the overall environment of a home). The home that is being discussed on this thread is not a home that should act as a charity vessel. The home is much too exquisite and classy. The Katrina victims trashed hotels and even some apartment communities where they were displaced. A lot of cities that acted as hosts, have seen a surge in violent crimes. The bottom line, the decision to not allow individuals that adhere to an unstructured lifestyle to take refuge in this beautiful home was wise. The Bible mentions over and over again about wisdom.

As for the Bishop's overall lifestyle: the Bible teaches about the opulence and majesty of GOD.

As far as the concept of tithing goes: there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the practice as long as the person participating is a good steward over their finances. If a person is struggling financially and feels obligated to give a tenth (or more) of their earnings, then I personally believe that GOD is not pleased. Poverty is a spirit that breeds desperation, anger, illiteracy, and despair. It is a slippery slope when people associate the lavish lifestyles of spiritual leaders as somehow fleecing the flock. It certainly happens. However, people have a right to believe in the GOD of their understanding and respond accordingly. People on the outside of the religious and spiritual movement may look upon this exchange as weakness, laziness on behalf of the person giving, or sheer stupidity. Yet, the bottom line is this: we all have an inner desire to believe in something or someone greater than ourselves. If an assembly of people are at peace with the enrichment of their spiritual leader, then who am I or who are you to question them? Just like some of you have made a choice to not believe or to not give to a religious institution, some have made the choice to believe and to express their gratitude through their service and money.

Church has always had to operate as a business. Even non-profit organizations are concerned about the bottom line. The church has always been a very socially and economically powerful institution in the Black community. If it were not for the church (as well as giving of the tithes and offerings), then how effective would the Civil Rights Movement have been? At the end of the day, I believe that White America stands in awe of the Black church as an institution. Black society has become so open to the degree that White people are more informed about Black people as a whole. Ever wonder why you have a lot of White, charismatic preachers that adopt a soulful and highly spiritual twist to their sermons? So just like everything else in the Black community, these White, charismatic preachers are trying to sound "like a Black preacher" to get the loyal following that Black preachers have always enjoyed. Strange, too, how churches are now more integrated than ever and how all of a sudden "GOD does not see color" and we are "all brothers and sisters in Christ" and should be "breaking bread together" as ONE race--the human race. Mmmm...hmmmm...

Black America has always looked up to, cared for, and provided for their spiritual leaders. At one point in our turbulent history (in the not so distant past), our spiritual leaders were all we had to get through a violent era.

I will end this post by stating: the only people that should have any say-so regarding Bishop Jackson and other spiritual leaders are those under their direct leadership.

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