  Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1904 Registered: 07-2004 |
http://www.thecarconnection.co m/Auto_News/Commentary/Flint_H it_Em_Where_They_Aint.S192.A11 378.html Jack Lessenberry heavily relied on this article in his latest column; thought some of you may find it interesting. | ||
Fastcarsfreedom Member Username: Fastcarsfreedom Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lessenberry is occasionally spot on with his work in the Metro Times--but this week's rag really angered me. Jack has jumped on the bandwagon as far as GM and Ford not building "relevant" vehicles--I am so sick and tired of this argument--it's a 20 year old hangover from the 80s that is continually perpetuated by people who fail to open their eyes and do nothing but run enraptured toward the open arms of Toyota and Honda. The truth is, most major auto manufacturers build very similar products of very similar quality. The problems that have bedeviled GM and Ford are related more closely to legacy costs and the sort of false, poor perceptions created and perpetuated by articles such as the one Mr. Lessenberry wrote. Sad to see this come from someone who I assume still wants the best for this region. Moreover, how does Chrysler always manage absolution from these criticisms? Do they buy that much ad space in The MT? DCX seems to have perfected the classic Chrysler mistake of over-producing briefly trendy products, bloating inventory and angering dealers, yet the local barbs seem reserved for GM and Ford. I wonder what Lessenberry drives. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 820 Registered: 11-2003 |
Fusion and Milan are rated (in different categories) as good as and better than Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in Consumer Reports. Where's the news on that? | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1048 Registered: 01-2005 |
Anyone who's driven a Cadillac recently would know that it's up there with any import luxury brand for power, comfort and quality, if not at the top. To be honest, I don't even want to read his article. To me, he went from hard-hitting, relevant reporter to typical, 'Detroit-News-Editorial-Board- Like' bitcher. I've said it many times about him, and indirectly to him, that if he's so unhappy with things then find somewhere else to live. Seriously...it wouldn't be worth it for me to live here if I had that dour attitude. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1905 Registered: 07-2004 |
Don't forget this was mostly a linked article Lessenberry was referring to. As for most co' building similar quality vehicles the gap has lessened but the damage was done and getting people to come back is very hard. What you are ignoring or did not mention is how much $$$ Toyota and Honda are making and how much Ford and GM are losing.The asian co's have money to develop the U.S. guys don't. The point of the article was the domestics should carve a new niche. Lessenberry was right about one thing the tendency of the defenders of U.S. co's and by extension some of the forumers to react defensively by denying the obvious. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1906 Registered: 07-2004 |
Quinn that is laughable.Cadillac aint in the same league as Lexus, Infniti et,al http://www.thecarconnection.co m/Auto_News/Commentary/Flint_C adillac_in_the_Slow_Lane.S192. A10986.html | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 264 Registered: 10-2003 |
Quote: "Jack has jumped on the bandwagon as far as GM and Ford not building "relevant" vehicles--I am so sick and tired of this argument--it's a 20 year old hangover from the 80s that is continually perpetuated by people who fail to open their eyes and do nothing but run enraptured toward the open arms of Toyota and Honda. The truth is, most major auto manufacturers build very similar products of very similar quality." The simple fact is people prefer to buy foreign cars at an increasing rate. If American cars are as reliable and exciting as foreign cars, why then aren't people buying them? Why are American carmakers losing money and foreign carmakers awash in cash? Oh yes, it's because reporters have brainwashed the public, much like they do with Detroit as a city. It's not word of mouth, personal experience, ratings in auto magazines and Consumer Reports, etc. | ||
Magnasco Member Username: Magnasco Post Number: 212 Registered: 10-2003 |
To Fastcarsfreedom: So what you are saying is that instead of running blindly to the japanese car makers, that we should follow blindly the american manufacturers? Two words for you: Free Market. People are deciding with their american dollars. And you also say that we should not criticise because we show weakness in our own market? Sounds a bit like the Bush agenda there. Citylover's point is dead-on: Toyota and Honda are making huge profits and Ford and GM are losing money. That is just plain business. No amount of propaganda can fix that. Yes, legacy costs are one of the main drains on their resources, but that is a problem they have to solve. If they don't, they will perish. Survival of the fittest. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7304 Registered: 12-2003 |
I've never had the negative experiences in foreign car dealerships that I've continually had here over many brands...but focussing on GM, Ford, VW, and Honda (the ones I've had the most experience with) there is a great disparity in the way they treat their customers. Great. EVERYONE'S inability in getting Ford to take responsibility for known problems with the Windstar sealed it for me with them. THAT nightmare memory will take a long time to heal. I got lucky, and missed the major years that VW had their problems with their fledgling Mexican assembly. I always loved the VWs produced by the Westmoreland PA plant (although not quite as much as my German-made round-eye '77 Rabbit)...and a few weeks ago discovered that one of my clients used to be the plant manager!! Nah, it is going to take a paradigm pirouette before these corporations wake up and smell the coffee. Ford will be first, because they will be leanest...but until they bring their dealer base out of their Marquis de Sade traditions, I don't see any hope for them selling to actual humans twice...especially if we didn't need to buy 'em. I'm not counting Chrysler, I assume the Germans will continue snapping them in line. They've got much better technology for torture now. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 147 Registered: 05-2006 |
Free traders won’t be satisfied until the standard of living in the United States is on a par with much of the rest of the world, meaning dramatically lowered. Our politicians need to wake up and start protecting US industry while there is still something to protect. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7311 Registered: 12-2003 |
War is easier and much more profitable. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 108 Registered: 05-2006 |
Niche market? No! Stay the course! Perservere! Don't cut and run! We know how well that strategy works.... | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7318 Registered: 12-2003 |
We cannot dare to have OUR corporations look weak against theirs. Even when they have us pinned by our own weight. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7319 Registered: 12-2003 |
It just dawned on me...I wonder if Ford may grow exponentially worse or better with their current downsizing program. Wonder if the WAY they chose to effect it will affect the outcome, who they're left with when the dust settles. They let their employees choose IF they wanted to accept the buyout. I've always thought retirement was the greatest drain on a corporation...since they just let wisdom slip out the door. As long as it isn't coupled with decades of declining attitude, hidden behind hardness of heart, then that is some of their most important 'property'. The assumption that 'new' always means 'improved' is not proven...and is dangerous to blindly hold. If it is a good idea, they just lost some of their fastest deciders...their most daring...arguably the smartest (IF it is a good idea to leave). On the other hand, they now have either the most loyal, or ruthless, or desperate...or the smartest if it proves out that leaving was a bad idea. I think they just should've reduced salaries thirty percent for a short test...that would have just moved out the selfish snakes and unethical people hanging onto the corp for their personal profit. Then they could've given those who chose to stay a loyalty bonus that would fill the income gap. | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1128 Registered: 02-2005 |
Having been involved in a couple of these programs, I see two problems with your suggestion Gannon. First, with a pay cut, you're more likely to lose the folks you want to keep (because they usually have transferrable skills) and keep those you want to lose because they don't have the skills or attitude to go anywhere else. Second, loyalty bonuses generally only work with non-union employees unless you can work out something very specific with the union - and even then you have to be so very careful to avoid any hint of age, sex, or race discrimination. That's why so many companies make a general early retirement offer to everyone. I have seen situations, though, when an employee who the company wants to keep chooses an early out, that the company either hires them back as an independent contractor or reserves the right in their program to keep such an employee on the payroll for a specified time until his/her skills, knowledge, etc. can be learned by others, a defined project ends, etc. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 267 Registered: 10-2003 |
Quote: "I think they just should've reduced salaries thirty percent for a short test...that would have just moved out the selfish snakes and unethical people hanging onto the corp for their personal profit." Like people who actually need the money to greedily support their family, selfishly pay for a house, stingily save for a child's college tuition, etc.? Didn't realize we were supposed to be working not for our personal profit, but for a comany's and its shareholders' personal profits. (Message edited by hockey_player on December 01, 2006) | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 110 Registered: 05-2006 |
I think SOME company loyalty is called for, especially when that company has been good to you. If it really a question of supporting your family, well, then family comes first. If you bail out because you want to be able to get that condo in Aspen that you have had your eye on then I think you are a selfish snake. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 957 Registered: 03-2006 |
The problem with the big 3 is arrogance. They loved the high times of the 90's buying up companies and building mass amounts of SUV's. It's time to move on the auto buisness was a good run for us, brought the city a lot of fame and notoriety. Who knows what the city would of been like if Henry Ford didn't start the 5 dollar work day. However it's time to move on, hopefully we can find a new industry to build on. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7331 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oddly, one of my Ford friends just called...stuck in line at the Secretary of State office. From what he told me, it sounds like everyone he knows is going to accept the buyout offer...within milliseconds of getting the memo if they can't move any quicker...and then management will play their hands on who they really want to keep. If they don't hit their intended target (or targets, as it sounded to me...they are playing the absolute number when indeed each department head knows who will stay and who will go) then there will be another round next quarter. Nah, they are handling it better than reported, as I should have suspected. Sorry about the editorializing, Hockey_player, but you reveal one of the biggest issues with the non-sustainability of the corporate business model. If there isn't any loyalty to the company...then it will not have the cohesiveness necessary to stay tight with forward motion. If every employee isn't an owner in some form or fashion, then why should they really care if they are producing...or if they are white collaring a few paper reams and solitaire time?! That is one of the failures of the basic capitalist system...it should morph into a socio-capitalist one with employee ownership included in the same class of stock as the original capitalist owners. They are as important to the success of the organization as any executive, if not MORE...like the trash collectors are the most important people in society. Think I'm wrong, go anywhere they've been on strike for more than a week. Nah, there is a shakeup due...perhaps we're seeing the wrestling match of another Wave...following Tofflers Third one. That is most certainly the case. But Hockey, if you watch The Corporation (available on Google video when you have a spare 2 hours and 45 minutes to have your mind blown), you'll see how innocent and good people can be placed in raw points of decision that in the biggest picture show tendencies none of them would admit or recognize. | ||
Magnasco Member Username: Magnasco Post Number: 214 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20061201/U PDATE/612010432 Oops, they did it again! It would be great if Toyota would stop accidently doing so well. If only a little luck would fall the way of our american auto makers. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 268 Registered: 10-2003 |
Do the workers promised lifelong employment owe the company loyalty even after losing their jobs because millionaire CEOs made stupid decisions that result in massive losses? Should their children forego college because they owe Bill Ford loyalty? They can become owners - it's called the stock market and they can become part owners too. Fat lot of good it does them when the company whose stock they own goes down the toilet because the automakers churn out garbage nobody wants to buy. If the corporation is hardly loyal to its employees, why should the employees in turn remain loyal to them? Tell that to a 50 year old stuck in Michigan with no real job prospects who gets laid off. No matter what happens to Ford Co., the execs will have nice homes to live in. The same can't be said for the thousands of uni-skilled blue collar workers left in the dust now. You are correct that the employees are more important to the future of the company than the execs, but tell that to the execs slashing jobs and leaving thousands of families totally stressed out about how to keep their homes. Those people owe Bill Ford nothing but a swift kick in the ass for being clueless about how to run a company. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7334 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bill Ford could be the most wise individual in the world and still not rescue a firm caught in the morass of changing the major socio-economic tides. Alvin and Heidi Toffler proved conclusively to me that the bulk of socio-economic upheaval happen throughout the time of large technological change. The transition from the agricultural to industrial 'revolutions' was their first proposed Wave, then that from industrial to technological the Second...so we are now riding the Third Wave (the name of the book that described their theory). They showed pretty clearly that each Wave existed in its most powerful form for durations that decrease by a power (or order of magnitude) each succession. 3000 for the agricultural revolution to commence and continue (although arguably it is still rolling through the slower third-world nations) 300 for the industrial (as above) 30 for the technological (dunno the phase lag for this one, it is coupled to the instantaneous information age so all bets are off) ? for the next one?! (and what is it? when?) Then what are we going to do?! Heh. So yeah, I'm wandering about macroscopically, and in your micro world the picture is quite different. There is no way you could honestly decide against the better interests of you and your family at that level, that is one of the conundrums of corporate capitalism. (what you describe is epidemic with sports teams, too...amazing what happens when the Love of Money is the prime motivator. There are NO redeeming merely human qualities valued, so they fade away.) I believe management forced this mindset...I understand from my friend that loyalty is NOT one of the companies highest priorities with the Ford shakeout. You could bleed blue with the Oval visible on your heart during an Magnetic Resonant Imaging scan...and they could let you go without remorse. Rather they find those individuals and just make certain they have a place within the corporation, it would certainly strengthen morale and cohesion...those people tend to be infectious. Loyalty seems to bring out the best in a person, shame it is so easily discarded. It would be a damn shame if they trimmed good people who merely got wounded and jaded during the Knife's reign...I saw a fantastic woman from my UofM-Dearborn days turned into a monster during her stay in purchasing. If the same person is trapped behind that harsh exterior, then she could again be an human asset to the organization. As it stands now, she is merely part of the machine, depreciating quickly...if she even survives the stress. | ||
Magnasco Member Username: Magnasco Post Number: 215 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good point Gannon. We studied that a bit in my History undergrad. And it does make sense that the protracted period allowed for better family and societal planning. But now that the curve is exponentially shortening, there is no time for planning and training for a career. The best key is just being flexible. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 269 Registered: 10-2003 |
But somehow the Japanese carmakers are thriving despite the Tofflers' theories. It's not all carmakers that are suffering due to shifts in the paradigm, it's only the American ones. That's the problem. I know Bill Ford isn't singlehandedly responsible; he is merely a symbol of an executive class groping blindly in the dark, half trying to preserve the old order and half cluelessly grasping for some kind of future to build on. Meanwhile, Honda and Toyota keep grabbing greater market share and insane profits. The paradigm hasn't shifted enough to phase out automobiles, so the U.S. automakers need to figure out why they are failing so bad at providing something that so many people still need. | ||
Magnasco Member Username: Magnasco Post Number: 216 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well one idea might be to follow the market demands instead of trying to create them. It seems that their design makes it too hard to turn the beast around and react to what the consumer really wants. Just a thought... | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7338 Registered: 12-2003 |
H_P, The Japanese started much later in the century and obviously learned from our industry's early mistakes. WE helped them beat US at our own game. We'll might call it the results of Atomic Guilt. Indeed one of the mistakes from the US automakers during this time was rejecting those time efficiency studies from what's-his-name. Durant?! Did the Japanese makers ever have to suffer the clamoring unions stealing back the laborer's dignity? In their culture, that dignity is tied to the whole. Needing to join a union is as different to them as committing hari kari is to us. Sure, the unions unfortunately became the anchor organized labor is to the system NOW, but they are undergoing their own sort of correction...I just don't call for their destruction, as many might. I don't trust a standard corporate capitalist without the check of a union, although they should not be necessary if socio-capitalism is structured correctly. Seems the construct would eliminate the management/labor divide. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 270 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not saying the unions should be destroyed, but they are, in their current form, an albatross around the necks of the automakers. Just one example - the fact that the Ron Gettelfingers of the world promise to fight to keep the jobs bank - ensuring the right of autoworkers to be paid for sitting around literally doing nothing - only hands the Japanese automakers that much more assistance in dominating the market. Forcing companies barreling toward bankruptcy to pay high salaries to workers to NOT produce is surely the sign of a failing company. With friends like these, the U.S. automakers will have a hell of a time competing with Toyota and Honda. I agree with some sort of part-ownership idea, likely through stocks, but right now it's meaningless if employees own parts of a company making disastrous decisions they have very little say in. It's like being a passenger on a sinking ship told they get a cut of the cruise ticket receipts. | ||
Fastcarsfreedom Member Username: Fastcarsfreedom Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2005 |
I am utterly amazed at the continuing blindness folks have in regard to the quality gap. It is PERCEPTION--nothing more. When it was more than perception, there was damage done--no question--I never denied that. But when you have the Fusion/Milan and yes...even the lowly Malibu, ranking at par with Camry/Accord, etc--need I say more? Please, for the sake of sanity can we not bring up Consumer Reports--I could write volumes on the continuing bias that rag has toward Japanese automakers--they are so overt that even Mercedes has taken them to task with their "creative" means of comparing cars...and when I say Mercedes...I mean the brand, not DCX. Consumer Reports has a very "unique" way of comparing and rating vehicles--they'll absolutely slaughter a first-year model like the Solstice based on "past experience" with GM cars--seriously...you slam the Solstice because of the '82 Citation? What this all boils down to regionally is economics--remember Clinton's famous line--"it's the economy, stupid" well...I assure you that I would still buy domestic even if the cars were inferior--because it's what makes sense--it keeps all of us employed in this region--that's the cold, hard fact. Lessenberry saying, Ford and GM are losing money and the Japanese aren't...well...seriously, is this the sort of hard-hitting fact finding they teach in journalism school these days? I can't speak to Ford's cash situation, but GM has plenty of cash for R&D...they aren't about to be driven out of any market by Honda, Toyota or their manipulated Yen. As for being "in line" Chrysler is far from it--I have bigger worries about Chrysler than I have about GM...Chrysler is overbuilidng vehicles that were hot sellers last year--a mistake they've made time and time again in their history. | ||
Southdetroit Member Username: Southdetroit Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 |
Fastcars, your point about the media and the perception they create is spot on. I have screamed that same thing for ten years. Does anybody even understand how the Japanese auto industry and govt even operate?! The Japanese govt pays for insurance, pensions and a good portion of R+D, enabling these companies to operate in an entirely more economically efficient manner than what we are used to here. Wake up people they are stealing our economy and will soon, I repeat SOON, completely control our standard of living. Revenge complete. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3696 Registered: 10-2003 |
Damn, will someone please tell us something we don't already know? Once again, Jack is late. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1908 Registered: 07-2004 |
A few things lessenberry pointed out are painfully obvious from some of your reactions. The continuing claim that the U.S. cars are now equal to the Japanese in quality is one. The U.S. no doubt has a much better quality car these days. But do you all think the Japanese are standing still? Does the claim that our stuff is as good or almost as good as theirs inspire much confidence or desire to buy? There is no doubt that the U.S. co's are losing a ton of money while the Japanese i.e. Toyota and Honda are making a ton.With that money the Japanese are able to develop ideas that the U.S. simply can't because they don't have the money.You all can gripe all you want and make all the claims you want about no quality gap but those two things are true ; the Japanese co's have money and they are making developments that many consumers find attractive. The article from car connection that Lessenberry linked by a Mr. Flint was a good article. If anyone read the article they would see that Mr. Flint has been around the industry for a very very long time. He has some interesting ideas about how the U.S. co' might strike back by going after or creating a market not being dominated by the Japanese. Howling that the U.S. cars are as good as the Japanese is not going to convince anyone that drives a Toyota to stop driving a Toyota. Perhaps Mr. Flint is on to something when he suggests that the U.S. co's could create a market for themselves.He even gives some history in the article on how that was done in the past. Blasting away at Lessenberry who is only a messenger seems pointless and not really addressing the interesting points made by Mr.Flint. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 591 Registered: 08-2005 |
Yes, it's all "perception" and the "evil media", just like all that death and destruction in Iraq is just a fantasy created by the media, it's roses and rainbows over there! You guys are starting to sound like Republicans, "It's all the media's fault!!!" Face facts, the PERCEPTION that domestics aren't as good as foreign cars exists because there is some truth to it. Case in point, this year's crash test safety ratings. All top honors went to foreign cars. Not a SINGLE domestic model made the list. That isn't "perception", that's reality: http://www.washtimes.com/busin ess/20061121-095145-4160r.htm Look at the vehicles that Motor Trend picks as their Best of the Year. Best truck? Honda Ridgeline. Best car? Honda Civic. Best SUV? Mercedes M-class. There is a reason that the domestics are losing, and it isn't just because of quality. Let's say that the quality is comparable, so guess what? NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT QUALITY. People care about price and appearance, they want a good looking car for the best price they can get. Honda and Toyota deliver that, Ford and GM do not. Until Ford and GM can address the internal issues that drive up production costs, or take some risks and churn out some innovative designs that will generate interest, they will continue to lose market share. And the domestics' pathetic attempt to give us "fuel efficient" vehicles is too little too late, they've ceded that market share to the Japanese with their years of dragging their feet. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 388 Registered: 05-2005 |
If you subtract the all of the Big Three workers, their families, suppliers, and armies of retirees from the new vehicle sales totals, I'm not sure that the domestic brands would be selling very many vehicles at all. Decades of sheer blandness is really what is killing the domestics. Outside of an occasional hit now and then, they consistently seem to roll off the most truly uninspiring vehicles. | ||
Fastcarsfreedom Member Username: Fastcarsfreedom Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2005 |
Have you looked at Camry? All other arguments aside, please don't try to tell me people choose that car because of style or cache. If the Camry's success is indicitive of anything, it's that buyers value blandness. The so-called success of "hybrids" is subterfuge and manipulation. Toyota sells big, gas-hungry SUVs too--in fact, their efficiency is far inferior to the full-size GM SUV line. I assume most posters on here are local--that's what surprises me about this attitude more than anything else--coming on here and saying GM & Ford are losing money and should "do something about it" and then refusing outright to open your eyes to the products they offer--well...what can I say about that other than, save your breath and start looking for work in another state. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2006 |
Living out on the Left Coast for 30 years,I've been watching this. The Japanese cars and trucks ARE better. It's the truth, get over it. Detroit isn't going to be able to compete; the UAW will make sure of that. Gannon, it was H.Edward Demming that showed the Japanese how to build a better car, not "Atomic Guilt". Retard. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7342 Registered: 12-2003 |
Atomic Guilt fueled our rebuilding of their industry. Atomic Karmic Whiplash might be what is fueling their successes over us. Thanks for reminding me of Demming's name, couldn't find it in the first few pages of my first two Google attempts. Moderator? He called me a name. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10955 Registered: 10-2003 |
170,856 Toyota Prius have been recalled, Toyota's flagship hybrid. The recall is in regards to the steering, the sliding yoke may crack or separate, causing partial or total loss of steering. Did we miss this one, or did you just not want to hear it? | ||
Fastcarsfreedom Member Username: Fastcarsfreedom Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2005 |
Fortress_warren--your ignorance is astonishing. It proves outright what I've been saying all along. Articles like Lessenberry's feed the perceptions of people like yourself. I often get very tired fighting this battle--it's even more frustrating now that I have facts to back up my argument instead of purely emotion, but the auto industry and the jobs it supports are far too important to the economy on this continent for me to quietly go away. Union contracts certainly have hamstrung the domestic makers in the past--but those times are changing. The UAW is far less a hinderance to these companies now, at least in comparison to the toxic attitudes of people who are living 20 years in the past. We have a free market in this country--god bless it--buy what you want, but don't berate people who make other choices, especially when their choices do for the economy many times over what your choice has done. It is possible for you to freely enjoy your Japanese brand car without s***ing on the domestic competition. I can't ask you to make a different choice when you're shopping--but I can ask that you not cheer for the failure of the industry that supports an entire economic region in this country. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1910 Registered: 07-2004 |
Every time you post Toyota recalls why don't you post domestic recalls sport; that way we would get an accurate portrayal. But your attempt to imply that Toyota is not up to quality or is no different then the domestics is pointless.The sales of cars and customer satisfaction are the measure of what people are doing and how satisfied they are with quality. And no matter how you try you can't argue with those facts.Toyota and Honda are making money Ford and G.M are not. When Buick touts the Lucerne they make direct reference to Lexus because they know Lexus has a great reputation.I have seen another domestic make reference to Honda as well. So forget about trying to make anyone think badly of the Japanese.They set out to make a quality product and in the overwhelming majority of cars they have succeeded. You are barking up the wrong tree. Fastcarfreedom, did you read the link? If so I think you will see that the writer was doing anything but shitting on the domestics.The domestics have fucked up is there any denying that? People get pissed when they buy a car and it breaks down.The U.S. co's and other experts acknowledged this was an issue and they addressed it. But lets not pretend that it wasn't a huge issue. What the writer conveyed were his thoughts on how the car co's in Detroit could survive. I linked the article because I thought it was fair w/o trashing the domestics.Perhaps in his comments Lessenberry was too harsh.But can you deny that G.M. and Ford have made bonehead moves repeatedly? Is that not frustrating to witness? You are absolutely right that the auto industry is of paramount importance to the economy_ the economy of the U.S. I was disapointed but not surprised that the President treats the situation cavalierly. But lets face it our President is not a curious individual. He has not bothered to think that all those cars going by every day have something significant to do with the economy. I for one am cheering for the domestics.I drive a Ford.I don't think the defensiveness that you, and sport to a greater degree display are very useful. Lets acknowledge how things really are.That makes it possible to deal with the issue. | ||
Jimg Member Username: Jimg Post Number: 738 Registered: 10-2003 |
W. Edwards Deming. His flagship statement: 85% of all quality problems are caused by management. Simple fact is, when the US automakers try to 'make their factories better' or 'improve quality' they benchmark against Toyota or Honda. The GEMA engine factory in Dundee is a prime example. It's benchmarked against Toyota, uses Toyota management and production models. It's a union plant, too, but there is one job classification: everyone does whatever is necessary. American workers can build a car just as well as anyone else. It's the methodology and management that lagged far behind the Japanese. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1128 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yeah and Jim, it sure helps that Toyota and Honda don't have to provide health insurance in Japan, and that the tariffs are set up so only a trickle of American cars are allowed into Japan. When it's an even playing field, then you can talk about how great the Japanese are. If the playing field was even and they had a far smaller market share, you wouldn't be talking about Toyota or Honda as the Great Benchmark. You only do that because of their increasing market share, which is spurred by their economic advantage importing cars from Japan. Their cars are good, but nowhere near as good as you think they are. I drove a Honda (my second) that was a piece of crap. Their dealerships are better and set up to to preventative maintenance, but I much prefer a GM product for quality, which I now drive. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1912 Registered: 07-2004 |
Here is something from the same writer Jerry Flint. I think pfft and you others should be pleased with this as he does say G.M. is building 1st rate cars. If you carefully read the previous column it is clear that Mr. Flint has strong ties to Detroit and the car industry. http://www.thecarconnection.co m/Auto_News/Commentary/Flint_B laming_the_Messenger.S192.A107 56.html | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 776 Registered: 10-2003 |
The JD Power quality rankings show that Cadillac stacks up pretty well to the other luxury car brands... http://www.cars.com/go/advice/ Story.jsp?section=top&story=iq sBrand&subject=iqs&referer=adv ice&aff=national Lexus ranked #2, Jaguar was #5, Cadillac and Infinity tied for #6, Mercedes-Benz was #25, and BMW was #27. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 777 Registered: 10-2003 |
The 2006 JD Power quality rankings show that American cars stack up pretty well against most foreign brands. Of the 37 brands ranked, this is the 15 car brands with the lowest quality: Mitsubishi Kia Mercedes-Benz Scion BMW Subaru Mazda MINI Jeep Saab Suzuki Hummer Volkswagon Isuzu Land Rover ----------- | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1917 Registered: 07-2004 |
Nice link ErikD. The Powers list is based on customer survey I believe.The average Lexus buyer is most likely a Mercedes or BMW type of driver rather than a Caddy. The criteria is going to be different in what the car owner expects. Cost is a factor as well.A top of the line Lexus is considerably more then a top of the line Cadillac. Anyhow you make an interesting point. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3698 Registered: 10-2003 |
FortWarren, the Japs DO NOT make a better truck. I've driven both. Toyota's trucks are still not anything near the Rams and F150's. Have you driven a Tundra? | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 118 Registered: 05-2006 |
If you are looking to buy a car, why would you want #6? Do you feel that too much quality is ostentatious? Personally, I think I would be looking at the top three. Hyundai scored higher than Cadillac - how embarassing. And you can buy two Hyundais for the price of one caddy. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 780 Registered: 10-2003 |
CL, The JD Power quality rankings are not influenced by price or expectations, as explained in the link:
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