  Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7359 Registered: 12-2003 |
I was just wondering...as the thread perhaps implies...if there was any way we could actually build an entire vehicle within the city of Detroit?. Is there enough shared capacity between the Big 2.5317687 and their still-barely-in-business suppliers to do this if somehow they had incentive? Don't get into the incentives, just the basics. Down to the ball bearings...engines...steel and other raw material sourcing and processing...glass. Can our country still build an entire vehicle on our shores right now?! | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 772 Registered: 11-2003 |
Even in the heyday, I doubt that there were any vehicles with *every* last part built in Detroit. | ||
Missnmich Member Username: Missnmich Post Number: 550 Registered: 11-2004 |
The auto industry is so globalized, that individual parts on any given vehicle can come from anywhere in the world. My Toyota came off the line in Georgetown, Kentucky, USA. My good old American Dodge was finished in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. So which one is the import? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7363 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Burnsie. I fully understand that, Missnmich, what I'm asking is there the total capacity within our city to build ONE car within our borders. Minus the stuff we can't make...although when was that minimized? Ford did nearly everything but the tires for a spell (but made sure to party hard with Harvey Firestone, I'd bet)...even down to his electricity...heck, didn't he do something experimental with natural materials for the body construction at one point?! (Wonder how close that was to a World War...) I'm talking purely fantasy here...don't try to bring global realities into this thread...just the little tiny pieces of reality I want US to play with at the moment. Can we build a car IN Detroit today?! Everyone, all together-like. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2456 Registered: 10-2003 |
No IC chip fab plants in the D. That means no air bags, no ABS, no electronic ignition, no stereo/CD/DVD/NAV system, no engine controls, no transmission controls, no HVAC controls, no suspension controls, ... | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7369 Registered: 12-2003 |
We had HVAC before the silicon chip. Electronic ignition is a bonus, but not necessary. Everything else is a creature comfort and/or directly opposed to Darwin. Seat belts do fine enough, now that most people wear them! It could be done without advanced silicon...just from a place twenty or so odd years behind the market standard. Arguably the raw sports cars of old were more fun to master. I haven't been 'moved' by ANY car that used electronically-variable suspensions or auto-transmissions...no matter how great their numbers on paper. As long as we have enough spare to keep those C-n-C machines and computers kicking...yeah, this gets complicated quickly, doesn't it?! OK, what about ANY raw materials into parts? We've GOT to have something left in this city...(or state...or country...)enough to build ONE car design among everyone. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2457 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gannon, you're ignoring modern emissions and safety regulations, perhaps on purpose as part of your idea. Sure, a 60's-technology car could be produced today, but legally it couldn't be sold. It'd be out of compliance on emissions, passive safety restraints and OBDII. No computers, no car. I don't think there are any glass plants in the city either. They're very capital intensive, like fab plants. No tire plants either, also pretty capital intensive. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 823 Registered: 11-2003 |
Missnmich, your Toyota is the import. There's a lot more to economics than who is on the assembly line. Profits, engineers, designers, etc... | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1109 Registered: 12-2005 |
Gannon, good luck moving that rubber tree plant.
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Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 773 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ford actually did have a tire plant (built ca. '38) at the Rouge. At one point Ford made about half its tires, according to an Images of America book. The book had a picture of a soybean products factory at the Rouge, and a picture of an ahead-of-its-time plastic-bodied car. Ford also had its own glass plant. Of course, the Rouge is in Dearborn, not Detroit, so technically it's not applicable to this thread's question. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7372 Registered: 12-2003 |
HA! Thanks Jimaz, that is perfect! I never heard that last verse before. In lieu of my emotional state starting this discussion, it is eerily resonant. You, too Burnsie...I've always considered inner-ring suburbs just an annex away from authenticity, so we should not disclude them...it's the spirit of the thing! Heh. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4526 Registered: 11-2003 |
jjaba asked the central question on his Ford F-150 Rouge tour and ofcourse never got a straight answer. Maybe somebody here can tell us how much of the Ford F-150 is built at the Rouge or nearby. The Jeep plant on the Eastside of Detroit and the Cadillac plant in "Poletown" make cars. How much of these units are really made in Detroit? jjaba knows that TRICO moved from Buffalo to Mexico. Cars without wipers are real hard to sell. There are no tires made in Detroit and glass comes from Toledo. Paint comes from Pittsburgh. Plastic infused inner door panels are made in Manchester, Michigan. Northern Mexico makes the electrical bundles. Chevy engines come in from China. Maybe a better question is how much of a car can be made in Michigan! jjaba. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7380 Registered: 12-2003 |
That IS my question. Do we have the capability right now to do it, among the Big Car Companies and their Suppliers that still exist here...could they pool their resources and make a car in the city. Or in the state. OR even in the country...as Track says, we're not making any silicon here, so to keep up with both world-class expectations and federal safety mandates...it's a reality we can't step away from, no matter how much it flies against Darwin's species-survival techniques. Forgive my ignorance...but isn't silicon derived from silica...that pure sand that is one of our natural resources here...kinda put Midland on the map, in a near-dioxin-death sorta way. We should be able make chips... | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 353 Registered: 08-2006 |
I would say yes, but don't count on it happening without a major change in attitudes towards corporate entitlements. A few engineers from Delphi had a presentation for our plastics class last week. The subject went to outsourcing. I was surprised that the difference per piece on an instrument cluster between union Michigan labor and Mexican Labor only adds an extra $0.25 to the piece. And of course these guys were in love with globalization. They said the plant they work at in Flint was getting shut down next year. It was sad to see they were too clueless to realize that they were so good at their jobs they put them selves out of work. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2006 |
Cambrian, Whirlpool used to bring washing machines in from Mexico. When the Benton Harbor plant got the labor content down from 5 hours to 1 hour per machine, the savings from doing it in Mex disappeared. Cost more to ship from Mex. So the job's in Mi, but not very many. You'll see this continue. And no, they couldn't build a car entirely in Detroit or Michigan for that matter. Probably back in the 40's at the Rouge, you could. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 354 Registered: 08-2006 |
They could. Admittedly, it would be a trade off, poorer environment from increased factory emissions. That is an upside from a slumping mfg. base, less factory waste to be dealt with. However there are so many advancements. The wave of the future is color keyed plastic body panels, like the Fiero, so no more need for paint emissions from the assembly plant. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 776 Registered: 11-2003 |
For the sake of simply having things still made in Michigan, it doesn't really matter if the Big 2.5 make stuff in Detroit or Livonia. Obviously it helps Detroit more if the factory is inside the city limits, but I'm more concerned with the big picture. You can look up on auto company websites their facilities in Michigan and what they make here. In Michigan (not counting the plants temporarily taken back from Visteon), Ford has: At the Rouge site: F-150 Assembly Dearborn Stamping Dearborn Engine and Fuel Tank I4 2.0L & 2.3L engines and fuel tanks Dearborn Diversified Mfg. Chassis sub assemblies, frames, stampings Van Dyke Transmission, Sterling Heights 4F27E (FN) automatic transmission, 4F50N (AX4N) automatic transmission Livonia Transmission 4R75E and 6R transmission, AX4N components, service components Woodhaven Stamping Door panels, fenders, floor pans, hoods, quarter panels, roofs and tailgates, truck body sides Romeo Engine 4.6L 2-valve and 2-valve V8 engines, 4.6L 4-valve V-8 engines, 5.4L 4-valve supercharged engines Wayne Stamping Assembly plants besides Rouge: Flat Rock, Wayne (cars), Wayne (trucks), Wixom (to close next year) | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2351 Registered: 10-2003 |
So $.25 x 3 to 4 million units is $750K to $1m loss on that component alone. An instrument cluster is just one small part in a very large system. It's one small electronic subassembly. I can think of at least 40 other electronic subassemblies in a modern car. If all 40 of those subassemblies are $.25 overpriced you end up with a $10 price disadvantage on electronic subassemblies at the component cost level. That 750K single component loss just became a $30 million corporate loss. If the management team was so neglectful that they let a $.25 loss occur on an instrument cluster they also would be allowing a loss on all the other components. And you wonder why GM and Ford are bleeding cash? If all the parts in the car you're trying to sell cost 2 or 3 cents more than your competitors you're out of business very quickly. I've been in meetings where we've argued over a tenth of a penny difference in a components cost. If that instrument cluster plant wanted to stay open, it had to figure out how to ring that $.25 cost difference out of it's pricing structure. All things being equal a lower price will always win. Even if it's a mere few pennies. Any manager that allowed a $.25 cost disadvantage on an electronics subsystem when there is a viable alternative would and should be fired. They would be helping the company go bankrupt. Companies are not in business to keep you employed. They are in business to profitably serve their customers needs. If they are not profitable or don't serve the customers needs, they are out of business. Your employment is just a happy byproduct of their continued success. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 356 Registered: 08-2006 |
NDavies: Then answer why all the outsourcing they have done in the past six years has not made them profitable? In the mid 90s when I worked at GM we were raking in the cash, Toyota was a distant threat. The upper guys dreamed up these Lean Management theories and the rest is history, plant closings, jobs going over sees and losses year after year. The economics professors of the future will point to what we are going through now as the most preventable bankruptcy ever of a dumbly ran industry. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1119 Registered: 12-2005 |
Has any automaker tried painting a whole instrument cluster on one big LCD display? It seems to work well in avionics. I have an HF radio designed like that too. Its only hardware control is the power switch. It seems a design like that would cut recurring hardware costs to the bone. It would take more software but that cost doesn't recur (per unit). | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7385 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great stuff...thanks Ndavies, I KNEW you'd show up here in one form or another. But is there capability STILL, say then even amongst the suppliers...to assemble some sort of vehicle at all? Like the old Fiat-'inspired' Lada...could something be cobbled together, even? Have we lost the ability to build a car in Detroit? Completely, even if collectively?! To ME, that is a pretty huge concept...a milestone passed with little celebration or even a bare notice. At least we can still prototype some cool stuff...right?! | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2354 Registered: 10-2003 |
We do have limited capacity in Michigan to build an entire vehicle, but just in Detroit is completely out of the question. It also depends where you want to draw the line base line. We don't have any capacity to extract raw materials from the ground here in Michigan. We had all the raw materials at one time, With the advent of synthetic rubber during WWII. Now our mines are pretty much spent. Do you draw the line after the extraction of the raw materials from the ground? Do you draw the line after the raw materials are processed into usable form? The material I'm not sure we have capacity for is Aluminum. If you move the line after it's been processed into usable material, why not draw the line after it's been processed into base parts? The only type of plant we currently lack in Michigan is a large scale IC fab plant. We can however get VLSI type parts programmed locally but the base parts come from out of state. It also depends on the scale of the operation. We can and do build low volumes without any problem. Most early prototypes have mostly local sourcing due to time constraints. The early prototypes can absorb the increased costs of local sourcing. This is what makes those concept cars and early mule vehicles multimillion dollar ventures. The local sourcing and building of prototypes is rapidly disappearing due to the use of CAD and improvements in shipping speeds. The ultimate goal is to get rid of all real prototypes in favor of computer simulation. We're alloted fewer mule vehicles each model year. Several hundred half million dollar prototype vehicles a year show up like a flashing red light on the CFO's balance sheet. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2355 Registered: 10-2003 |
Because the competition is also getting cheaper. We are merely playing catchup. Toyota and the other foreign companies use continuous improvement strategies to drive cost from their vehicles. That's continuous improvement in quality, continuous improvement in costs and continuous improvement in features. We need to do the same to remain competitive. How bankrupt would they be going if the hadn't reduced costs and outsourced what they have already? There's a long world wide list of failed companies that didn't continue to improve cost and quality. The current surviving companies put them out of business. US companies have been putting foreign companies out of business for years using this strategy. We just need to get back to what we do best. We're great at creating industries. Other countries are better at refining them. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7392 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yeah, N, I had been looking at that as well. I guess, for the sake of the game, we'd look at the raw materials available. Are they really spent, or is it just too hard to get that last ounce out compared to the ease of shipping in from another part of the globe that is easier to access?! I thought I heard at least that copper could still be mined up north...but you'd think with the global shortage in the midst of China's building they'd be doing it by now if they could. Maybe they are trying to run out the 'city mine' of recycled copper first... As an aside, I'd LOVE to see the difference analysis between the computer simulations and working prototypes over the years...that would be a fascinating study on a learning curve in the midst of exponential technology improvement. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 357 Registered: 08-2006 |
Mmmmm...that is partly right. But it's our American ingenuity of late that is looking to send the most work over sees, be it production, prototype, design and engineering, while the foreigners Hyundai, Toyota, too name a few are actively investing over here. Ann Arbor Tech center, new plants down south. All GM says, is “We just sold more Buicks in China than in the US” Tells me where their real interests are. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 777 Registered: 11-2003 |
Cambrian: It's "overseas," not "over sees." | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2358 Registered: 10-2003 |
Cambrian, This is a continuation of an ongoing process in the auto industry. Even before the outsourcing. It has happened in every industry we've ever created. At one time 90% of the US population was involved food production, now only a tiny minority. We had a huge number of clothing workers, now only a tiny minority do that. Blacksmithing, buggy manufacturing, bicycles, Trains, steel, planes, banking, insurance and telecommunication all employed a higher percentage of the population. All those industries employment levels have shrunk due to increased productivity or technological changes. This is a recurring unrelenting process. I dare you to find a mature non-government regulated industry where this hasn't happened, Outsourced or not? It just gets faster every year. It's this continuous improvement in productivity either by outsourcing or technology changes that have given us this high standard of living. And there's no sticking your head in the sand about it. Because if we don't do it, someone else will. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 358 Registered: 08-2006 |
Well, the problem is, if you outsource and layoff all your employees who also happen to be your customers, all in the name of new technology, or streamlining or whatever and your profits tank. We can't really call that progress can we? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7393 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sand is one of the only raw materials we have left to play with, N. Cambrian, It certainly WAS viewed as progress, back when there was another industry that popped up to replace that which had wandered away to find those cheaper labor and materials. Remember, though, past performance does NOT dictate future behavior. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2359 Registered: 10-2003 |
So what do you suggest? We become socialists and give everyone jobs for life. That worked so well for the Soviet Union, communist China and India. All three of these countries have begun to thrive now that they've enlisted our economic policies. Or maybe We could be like Britain in 60's and 70's and have the government buy all all our failing businesses to keep the people employed. Britain's businesses still failed even with very strong protectionist policies on foreign products. The foreign companies productivity increased to overcome the protectionism. The British had a hell of a time when they had to close all those failed unproductive steel mills, railroads, coal mines and auto companies. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 359 Registered: 08-2006 |
I took a materials class over the summer. I learned that Aluminum is the most commonly available resource for making metal on the Earth. The cost of refining it from it's Bauxite base is more costly then refining steel is currently. That's steel, not steal Burnsie. Copper is strip mined out in Utah and in Mexico?, some where in south America. Titanium, we get from the Florida Beach sand us "libs" stick our heads in when confronted with globalization. Magnesium comes from sea salt. Nickel for Stainless Steel, Canada I believe. When we question rather we can build an entire car here...too me that does not mean we have to come up with the raw materials here too. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2360 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gannon, the one true resource in Chip fab is power. It is a very energy intensive business. The amount of silica required is nowhere near how much plastic and metal that's required to build a finalized chip. The silica is just a tiny square in the middle of a chip. Most of the chip package size is dedicated to interfacing with the outside world. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10956 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not true. Year One will soon, or perhaps already are, offering brand new from the ground up 1969 Camaros. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 360 Registered: 08-2006 |
Here's what I would suggest. What I'd like to see is the US Auto industry admit they screwed up and bring most of the jobs back to the midwest that the Japs and Koreans are smart enough to capitalize on and win disenfranchised customers over to buying imports. A complete house cleaning starting with Wagoneer and ending with Zietche would be a nice start too. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4528 Registered: 11-2003 |
This is wonderful.Thanks for staying mostly on point. jjaba can learn much here. Burnsie's post #776 was one of the best we've ever seen in answer to the thread question. He tells it like it tis, precise data. Ndavies sayswe got rubber mines in Michigan? Please clear that one up, eh. As for Buick in China. GM doesn't remind us that the Chinese fucking hate the Japanese over WWII death marches. So flukes in politics make a big difference in how Detroit does. Koreans don't buy from Japanese either. Without sounding like a bigot, Americans seem to have forgotten about Pearl Harbor and having to Nuke the enemy twice to bring them to their knees. All's we think about is price. Timmons, Canada; Cuba and Dominican Republic have nickel mines. Bauxite is all over the Caribbean like Jamaica, mon. Thanks again. Wonderful thread. jjaba on the Dexter bus. ps. That comment about Whirlpool was priceless. Thanks. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2361 Registered: 10-2003 |
LOL, So, by greatly increasing their costs you think they're going to magically become profitable. Give me a break. (Message edited by ndavies on December 04, 2006) | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7394 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sport, There MUST be some sort of small production exemption. Wonder what that is, and what regulations they can escape?! N, No you're absolutely right...thanks for that quick lesson of England riding the downslide of the industrial revolution. What do THEY largely do now for industry? They've got to be suffering similar fate still...or is the after effect of all that government (mis)managed pain positive?! If not for them, at least for us as long as we learn their lessons. Where are they now... Cambrian! You revolutionary...off to the gallows with you, tomorrow noon in the square. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2362 Registered: 10-2003 |
We invented synthetic rubber round about either during WWI or WWII. can't remember exactly, and I'm not that old. We no longer needed rubber tree plants. We have a limited supply of oil in the state that could be turned into polymers. i.e. synthetic rubber and plastics | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 249 Registered: 10-2006 |
SS, I was looking at the Year One camaro, article said they were getting vintage cars and updating. The 1969 vin was key, Shelby had to do the same thing with the continuation Cobras, he had vins from the 60's. Never assigned to a car, so all the mid 60's specs for emission and safety applying. How would Year One get around that? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 362 Registered: 08-2006 |
Right and becoming obsessed overly by costs while your profits fly out the window is a dumb strategy too. Look at GM and Ford's bottom lines the past five years. The beginning of the thread was a loaded question. Detroit itself never had the means to provide all raw materials needed to make a car. That is not the reason why it blossomed as an auto capital. It was the combination of locale for commerce, shipping / rail to get the commerce here with the right home grown brains to make it happen. Henry Ford with some transplants like WP Chrysler and Durant. Mulally, Zietche and Wagoner. Maybe they could manage a Wal Mart store effectively, but they sure haven't shown me they can run a car company. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2363 Registered: 10-2003 |
Britain is big in the banking, trading, shipping, diplomacy, Software and insurance industries. They train a huge number of doctors who then flee Britain for the big money here. They are replaced by India trained doctors who think the socialized medical pay rates of Britain are great. They are also very high tech research oriented. Most of the heavy industry is gone. A few Specialty steel companies are left and Auto production is negligible. The Japanese happily make Right hand drive Cars for the British market, since they already produce them for their home market. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7395 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yeah, old Henry hedged against unfriendly governments by buying land in South America that wasn't used after the advent of synthesized rubber. Caught some story of one of his plantations near the Amazon River recently. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2364 Registered: 10-2003 |
Forgot to mention Ford is still Britain's biggest car manufacturer. They're Building Fords, Jags and Range Rovers in Britain for now. They about to or just closed Jaguars original Browns(SP?) lane plant. Henry put his first European plant in England. It was a smaller version of the rouge plant. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7396 Registered: 12-2003 |
THAT took too long to post...gotta remember to do that BEFORE heading off for tea time. Sorry. Cambrian...not so much a loaded question as a directed one. Everyone can see the paradigm of manufacturer/supplier NOW, but it wasn't always so clear. HF might be known best for the assembly line...who was the parent of outsourcing?! He might be that too, since it looked like he learned the horizontally AND vertically integrated corporation couldn't work. H-M-M-m-m-m-n-n, that WAS before the technological revolution. I think at least Samsung is trying it now...who else is the most diversified of corporations, across industries and within each? Seems THAT might be the overall solution...best way to get a fractional return on your parts purchase is to own the parts maker again. BE the part. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7397 Registered: 12-2003 |
REALLY cool stuff, thanks N. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2366 Registered: 10-2003 |
Henry believed in insourcing. He tried to control the entire process from raw materials all the way to the dealerships. Don't forget Henry came from a different time. He was manufacturing on a scale completely unimaginable before his time. Way before suppliers were very reliable. Outsourcing is more of a post WWII phenomena. It was brought in during Ford's first post WWII collapse. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1120 Registered: 12-2005 |
Ford's rubber plantation was covered in the Fordlandia thread. (Message edited by Jimaz on December 04, 2006) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 366 Registered: 08-2006 |
Not to jump on ol Henry's bandwagon, he did have his faults, anti semite, really backwards on his political views. I don't think we can compare him to modern Auto Barons, simply because he had a few plants at the source for purposes of producing near the natural resource, (UP's wood trim plant, and the failed Fordlandia experiment). He realized the need for a strong US manufacturing base as he realized the benefits that had to the country's infrastructure. All these modern day Auto Barons want is to simply have a dealer network here, and and office for the board of directors. Everything and I do mean everything, from assembly to accounting will be done in the low wage country of choice at the moment. What's retarded in this logic is they believe that somehow there will still be millions of people that will still want, desire or be able to afford their products. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2006 |
There are millions of people that can afford their products, they just don't work for an auto company. Now whether they want or desire it, that's another question. Most don't. C_brain, give it up, it's not going to be 1950 or 1960 or any of the good times. Manufacturing is toast. It's not going to ever come back. Just like all those farmers 100 years ago. Kiss it goodbye. The sooner you accept your Capitalist Masters, the better. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 367 Registered: 08-2006 |
Naaahhh, I think the barge is slowly drifting to the left; Exhibit A is the House and Senate Elections last month. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 253 Registered: 10-2006 |
You foolish C-brain, we did that on purpose, it's a chess match, we're a couple of moves ahead, actually lots of moves. All will be revealed in time. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10958 Registered: 10-2003 |
Fortress_warren, Easy, you can get a special VIN issued for new cars that are along the lines of a kit car. They are exempt from current standards. They are issued by the SAE, not intended for mass production, and regulations I believe vary from state to state. Gannon, You are correct in your assumption that they would not be able to do this for mass production, though I'm sure Year One's demand for these brand new 1969 Camaros will gradually increase. What is the cutoff for what is considered mass production? My friend works for a plant that build custom bikes via mass production, though they only build about 200 per year. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 256 Registered: 10-2006 |
SS, do you have a link for the SAE issuing vins? There's a guy on Blue Oval Forums that's in Clinton Township that makes and sells kit cars. Porsche 930's, Lola T-70, GT-40s, I was wondering how he got past the DMV. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10964 Registered: 10-2003 |
Can't help you there. I've read and talked to people over the years whom have owned kit cars. Your best bet may be to start with Michigan's DMV, as they could point you in the right direction I'm sure and would have the final say in the process anyways. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 263 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm in California, so that seems to be a problem. You should do the same. Move to Cali. We have the biggest UM alumni group outside Mi. It's 70, Livingston County was 19, with wind chill,6. About the same as when I left Mi for the first time, December 20, 1975. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10966 Registered: 10-2003 |
You're in California...by far the most strict state there is in regards to hot rodders. Not sure how easy it would be to get a specialty vehicle VIN issued out there. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4530 Registered: 11-2003 |
jjaba notes that Henry Ford borrowed the assembly line from Swift Meat Packers. The pork line in Chicago run by immigrant Poles was his inspiration. Soon, Hamtramck Poles were bolting cars in Highland Park. Thank depressions in Poland for that. Ndavies, thanks for the answer about rubber. This thread is wonderful. Thanks for staying on point. jjaba was talking to his friend a fine doctor at Univ. of Penn Hosp. He dictates cases daily in Philadelphia and goes home. The typist in Bangalore, India comes to work on the other side of the globe, works a shift, and when he goes to work tomorrow, his files are already assembled. Nobody in the 2 million City of Brotherly Love can do it so quick, so cheap, and so perfectly. Mistakes here, and you'll kill people. You don't have to be a weatherman to know the times are-a-changin'. jjaba. | ||
Fortress_warren Member Username: Fortress_warren Post Number: 266 Registered: 10-2006 |
SS, they don't allow any nonsense with vins. If it's built this year, then it has to meet those rules. The DMV pulled thousands of license plates from people that got dirt bikes licensed for the street. They wanted to avoid getting hassled by The Man. Ca went all the way back to 1978 standards, if it didn't meet those, pull the plate. jjaba, radiologists in India do the same thing, read the images, write it up, send it to the states. | ||
Detroiterinspirit Member Username: Detroiterinspirit Post Number: 27 Registered: 01-2005 |
My bad, I thought this post would be about building a car from all the scrap parts along I-94 through the city and maybe some of the abandoned cars in the Chalmers/Jefferson neighborhoods. I swear there are enough parts to build a few working vehicles. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 773 Registered: 12-2005 |
Jjaba-your comment on post# 4528 re: the short-term American memory and price (vis-a-vis Japanese cars) reminds me of this: http://video.google.com/videop lay?docid=2415875145808534146 It's like the opposite of FUBU | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4539 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detroiterinspirit, you're talking about building a car on the Eastside obviously. I-94 West of Woodward is clean to spic and span. jjaba. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4540 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thanks Packman. jjaba saw Sarah Silverman's movie. She can be quite funny. jjaba. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 7402 Registered: 12-2003 |
...if ONLY because it was the route to the airport from the SuperDuperBowl! | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4541 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gannon, thanks. Yes, and during Super Bowl nobody on the Eastside was allowed passage on I-94. To avoid confusion and congestion, the Eastside ramps had Jersey blocks on them. Gannon tells it like it tis. "Hey Lucy, let's abandon our old heap on I-94 around W. Grand Blvd., we gotta a new 1975 Chevy after Cassandra died. Ok, not this week. Super Bowl is here." jjaba. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 384 Registered: 08-2006 |
I did OK with an abandoned car. Some one dropped off a rusted out Jeepster Commando at a Junkyard that resides on the Lincoln Park Detroit border. The junkyard being the socially responsible members of society they were decided to push the Jeepster one block down on Fort Street for their Detroit neighbors to deal with because they did not want it. A friend told me of this, I stopped by and picked it clean of the valuable parts and made some money. All the passing hookers, johns dope pushers and vice cops gave me the oddest looks. |
