  Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 528 Registered: 04-2005 |
okay, my fellow forumers, i need some information if you've got it...i have been househunting for the last month or so and today found a house i am absolutely in love with. everything about it was letter-perfect...until i went into the basement. at first glance it seemed a normal, unfinished basement, but when my sister and i opened a door to one of the storage rooms we found two large piles of dirt, one which had a pole protruding from it that propped against an adjacent wall. when we asked the owner about the room she explained that it was a "Michigan basement" and that her mother used the room as a canning cellar. having NEVER heard of such a term or such a basement in our lives, we were a little concerned. so does anyone know exactly what a Michigan basement is, or if said conditions are the norm for such a thing? i really love this house and am hoping this is somewhat normal for an older home. any info would be much appreciated! | ||
Tarkus Member Username: Tarkus Post Number: 111 Registered: 04-2006 |
Michigan basement (US) a simple, often damp, basement that has an earth floor Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ Michigan_basement" From wiktionary | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1483 Registered: 02-2006 |
Maybe they don't call them Michigan basements in Michigan? We have them here in Indiana. It's an open crawl space in the basement with a dirt floor that is used for storing canned goods and storing potatoes and yams, etc. They're usually found in bungalows built in the 1920s - 1930s. I'm not sure why piles of dirt in a room would be considered a Michigan basement. | ||
Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 530 Registered: 04-2005 |
okay, dirt floor is one thing, but we're talking PILES of dirt. is the term sort of all-encompassing for any type of crude, half-completed basement? i guess that's what i'm asking. just want to know if what i saw is normal in these cases. (thanks for the post, btw.  ) | ||
Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 531 Registered: 04-2005 |
a-ha, Hysteria, thank you! what i saw could definitely be considered a crawlspace. the floor appeared to be dirt as well but it was hard to tell; still, it was an unfinished space closed off from the rest of the basement. and the house is indeed a bungalow, built in 1927. that helps. thanks! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 769 Registered: 12-2005 |
I'd be more concerned about the condition of the foundation than the piles of dirt. Unless they were graves. Happy Halloween! Maybe the pole was a sump pump pipe? (Message edited by Jimaz on October 17, 2006) | ||
Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 532 Registered: 04-2005 |
LOL thanks! well, obviously i'm concerned about that as well...my sister has a friend who's an inspector and is going to try to get him to accompany us to the house for a second look. (trust me, the graves thing crossed my mind too...) i'd just never heard of anything like that before and wanted to know. | ||
Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 533 Registered: 04-2005 |
i didn't see a sump pump...that was my first impression when i saw the pole... | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1484 Registered: 02-2006 |
Cool. Sounds like a Michigan Basement, SRG. Was it about about waist high off the ground? Sometimes they are covered with wooden sliding panels or even lattice work. Not sure what the dirt piles are for! | ||
Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 534 Registered: 04-2005 |
no, it was pretty much how i described...from the outside looked like a storage room but opened up to the dirt and poles. there was enough room to stand up but not much to move around. not sure what the piles are for either, but one of the few definitions i was able to pull up online mentioned that some of these are comprised of stacks of stones, dirt and/or concrete...? it was creepy in there so i didn't do too much snooping. probably should have though. | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 254 Registered: 10-2003 |
A Michigan Basement was one that was entered into by a separate door that led only to the basement and was not the actual back door. Often it had the characteristics of a cellar - cramped space, dirt floor, etc. Many were converted to regular basements by digging the floor deeper and finishing the space, but still retained the outside access door. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 770 Registered: 12-2005 |
Regarding sump pumps: Aren't they considered a necessity in Michigan? Last Spring was pretty wet and our pump was running overtime. We even have a backup pump. Without a sump pump, I'd suspect a potentially flooded basement. We have a crudely finished basement with a concrete floor, circa 1940s. There's a puzzling "fruit cellar" closet underneath, and exactly matching the dimensions of, the front porch. It always puzzled me why they'd bother forming the foundation to match the porch to a mere fruit cellar. Maybe there's a story there. | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 77 Registered: 06-2006 |
Jimaz, in the early 70's, my mom had a house built with a basement room under the porch. She called it the storm shelter, and we put canned vegetables and fruit in it too. I don't know why she did it. the basement was huge enough without it. It was just her thing I guess. Superraygun, maybe the pile of dirt indicates they lowered the basement floor so someone could look into the basement without clunking their head on the floor joices (sp?). Or maybe they are in process of getting a basement floor poured because it's a michigan basement to help with the sale. Have your home inspector friend check it out, just to be on the safe side. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 661 Registered: 12-2005 |
the necessity for sump pumps are a function of the water table where you live, although I think they just put them in all new construction--don't know for sure. I lived in three houses that did not have one, and the basements were always high and dry. When I lived in Berkley (a former swamp) the sump pump ran every half hour, more often when it rained. That pump died once, and in the eight hours it took me to get a replacement and install it, the basement took on 3/4" of water. You can dig out that "Michigan basement" and pour concrete to make it a real basement--it's a big job though. | ||
Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 535 Registered: 04-2005 |
well, when you first enter the basement it appears to be a normal unfinished basement: hot water tank, washer/dryer, etc., so it's not totally dirt and rough space. that area is closed off with a door. i don't recall seeing a sump pump anywhere but it could have been closed off in an area we didn't get to, or not at all. i always try to make the walk-through a little snappy if the owner's home, just because i feel weird, and i figure if i like the house enough i can always come back for another look. everyone, thank you so much for your feedback; it was very, very helpful! just keep your fingers crossed for me that everything checks out... | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2842 Registered: 10-2003 |
sounds like buffalo bill's house | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 947 Registered: 10-2003 |
56 packman is right; sump pumps are only needed when the water table is high enough to have water enter into the basement. in the city, a sump pump is needed when the sewer line is higher than the drain/waste line coming from the house. if it is lower (elevation) than it is gravity fed and a sump pump is not needed. so, in the city at least, a sump pump is not always installed. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8900 Registered: 10-2003 |
SRG, I have seen houses like that in Windsor. As long as no water is seeping into the basement you should be fine. I looked at a house built in 1900 that had half the basement done (unfinished) and the other half was dirt that was separated by a wooden wall. I wouldn't worry about. As for sump pumps, my house doesn't have one and I am a block from the river. My basement doesn't even have a floor drain as all drains run under the concrete pad. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 561 Registered: 11-2005 |
Yeah, I would find a dirt basement creepy. Must have been some tv show or movie I saw with hands coming up through the dirt. Eeek! | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2252 Registered: 10-2003 |
New suburban construction almost always have sump pumps. The suburbs are trying to keep runoff water out of the sanitary sewers. The sump pumps drain to the storm drains. The Monroe village that I own a home in has been trying to separate the sump pump outputs off of the sanitary sewers for some time. We keep getting hit with extra sewer charges since the amount of water out of the village is greater than the water goin in. It's the very last village on the detroit water system. the next village south is on Monroe's systems. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 381 Registered: 06-2005 |
I've seen many basements set up as you described. As long as the foundation is solid and there is no sign of water damage you should be fine. A good word of advice in any home purchase (Whether they are new or 100 years old) is to get it thoroughly inspected! The cost of an inspection is minimal when compared to the cost of major repairs. Not only that, but with the slow market many sellers may be willing to fix the problems in order to complete the sale. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 772 Registered: 12-2005 |
Mama_jackson, that makes perfect sense to think of that little closet as a storm shelter. It's smaller, and so stronger, than the rest of the basement and there's less material overhead to rain down during a tornado. Thanks! | ||
Courtney Member Username: Courtney Post Number: 105 Registered: 06-2004 |
It's possible that the little closet was the coal closet. They tended to be at the front of the home for easy delivery. When you start looking for little iron doors on houses built in the 20's and 30's, you start seeing a whole lot you didn't notice before. If the foundation is brick, make sure they have not used Dry Lok on both interior and exterior walls. I got that nasty stuff off of the exterior less than a year after the previous owner put it on (which was easy, since it was all puffing off) and it had already started to cause damage to the bricks and mortar. | ||
Superaygun Member Username: Superaygun Post Number: 536 Registered: 04-2005 |
The main part of the basement showed no signs of water damage or telltale damp smells; it was very clean, hence our shock at finding the dirt room... obviously an inspection is imperative, but i am still relieved to know that the Michigan basement is a fairly common thing for an older house. i really love this house but just want to be sure everything's on the up and up first. i can't thank you guys enough for your input! thank you thank you thank you!! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 733 Registered: 06-2006 |
My house, at one point, had a Michigan Basement. It is now a crudely unfinished regular basement that is COLD anytime of year (despite the heat ducts down there). My house was built in 1920. The ceiling is VERY low and it can't possibly be converted to a finished anything (because of all the poles and the low ceiling...ok, we can't call it a ceiling, how about bottom of the main floor floorboards??). It had an entrance that was behind the house (like a storm cellar) but the owners before me built a small addition to the back of the house (a mudroom) and had it go back far enough and put in stairs so that one can access the basement from the house. My suggestion is, if the house passes any inspection, make a mudpit and enjoy it!! The leftover dirt you found may have been left over from putting in a real basement. Don't let some dirt deter you from buying the house if you love it. You can always carry the dirt out or make use of it somehow (you have teenaged children? that dirt might come in handy in detroying evidence). | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 664 Registered: 12-2005 |
Detroitteacher--the password is: "floor joists" (what you see when you look up in your basement) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 354 Registered: 12-2005 |
Regarding the "fruit cellar" closet underneath, and exactly matching the dimensions of, the front porch, the reason it matches the dimensions of the porch is that the perimeter of the concrete porch slab needs to be fully supported by concrete block foundation walls. Some of these "closets" may have have been used for coal storage but I know that my parent's house (built in 1941) had the same kind of "fruit cellar" and their coal chute was on the oppposite side of the basemant. As for basement sump pumps, cities began requiring them so that overloaded storm drain systems will not back up into basements like they will with directly-connected gravity drains. With sump pump connections, any water already in an overloaded storm drain will escape from the grade-level vents on the exterior of the houses, not inside the basements. Since the individual house connections to the storm drain system must then be made at grade-level, sump pumps have to be used to get the water up and out of each basement. I am fortunate to live in a neighborhood that has very sandy soil. My sump is always dry and the pump has never come on except for when I run a hose over there to drain the hot water heater. I test the pump occasionally this way or with a pail of water, just to make sure it will run when and if it is ever needed. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1864 Registered: 07-2004 |
My parents house in Detroit was built in 1917. It has a half-basement. The two front rooms of the house have no basement underneath them, just a crawl space. When I was a kid there was a small wooden access door(maybe two feet high) on the side of the house that allowed you entry into this to crawl space under those two rooms. My father used to keep ladders in this space. He later bricked in this door and all the wooden panels that covered this part of the house. The back half of the house was already bricked off between the first floor floor joists and the ground. Later I found out that there is an access window(swings upwards) from the half-basement that leads to this crawl space. It is on the side of the basement that has the water meter, water faucets/sinks. Ironically, the house next door and to the south of my parent's house had a full basement. Maybe the builder charged more to put in a full basement and the people who built my parent's house elected to just pay for the half-basement. Also, the house used to use coal for heat before it was converted to natural gas. Maybe coal was put in that crawl space and then shovelled out to go into the furnace. At any rate, I find the half-basement to be an interesting set up for a house. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 803 Registered: 12-2005 |
Mikeg, yes, there is a large concrete porch slab. That makes sense. (Shows how little I know about construction.  ) So it might not make a good shelter in an earthquake. I think the coal must have come in elsewhere (truck access logistics). It had already been converted to oil when I first saw it in 1967. Funny how those enormous coal furnaces gave way to smaller and smaller furnaces over the decades. A secret fantasy to clandestinely excavate a vast complex of sub-basements has always haunted me. | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 696 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sounds like you're talking about what my mom and dad called the "root celler". That term ring a bell? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 807 Registered: 12-2005 |
%ding! |
