Mclite Member Username: Mclite
Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
Did anyone see it? I was appalled! I wrote a letter to the art editor. And, to think that writer is teaching CCS students. |
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 619 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 3:06 pm: | |
See what? Link? |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1298 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
I read it and was pretty disappointed by the content and tone as well. Here's a link for all those who are interested. http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=10036 |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 917 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 3:32 pm: | |
Something tells me there was always a "dreadful bore" at her table. |
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal
Post Number: 984 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
Be glad she's teaching CCS students and not elementary school kids. |
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 735 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 4:02 pm: | |
Its odd how she rips em a new one yet renews her membership. She really needs to get out of her ivory tower more often. |
Jelk
Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4164 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 4:37 pm: | |
Call me an elitist (plead guilty your honor) but I thought the column was spot-on excellent. That high cultural institutions resort to beer and circus tactics to attract the homo neanderthalensis is a tragic commentary on our culture. I think it's unfair to blame the DIA for doing what it must however she does mention that she did renew with the DIA so maybe she does as well. I liked the fact that she pointed to other institutions elsewhere using other methods to attract interest without dumbing down their mission. Criticism is always useful when it comes with constructive solutions to the problem. |
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 2056 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 4:51 pm: | |
Jelk - I couldn't agree more. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11112 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 6:54 pm: | |
I'm sorry, but I fail to see her point as being any more valid than simply being her own personal opinion. I mean seriously, who is to say what is and isn't art? Who is to say what sort of interactions are appropriate or not? Personally, you could put some million dollar piece of work by a world renown artist next to the work of some local artist and I couldn't even tell you the difference. In the end, it's just a bunch of paint on a piece of canvas, some of which is more appealing to some people than others. Some of the most interesting art I have seen has been in local coffee shops and bars, not in museums. What Mrs. Hill seems to desire is a room full of elitists, as Jelk puts it, where they can all have fun critiquing fine art and carrying on discussions that I myself would find to be "dreadful boredom." Let's face it, I highly doubt that the overwhelming majority of people visiting the DIA, or even many of it's members, know all that much about art. In order to keep memberships and attendance strong they have to cater to the masses, not the much smaller number of art critiques.
quote:That high cultural institutions resort to beer and circus tactics to attract the homo neanderthalensis is a tragic commentary on our culture.
Seriously, how can you say that beer is not a very key part of this country's culture? Aside from perhaps Ireland and Germany, I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a country that consumes more beer. If that makes us neanderthals, then sign my ass up for the next Geico commercial. |
Patrick Member Username: Patrick
Post Number: 3872 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 9:02 pm: | |
SS nailed it. The DIA needs to earn $ so more power to em. Budweiser-atcha! |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 1889 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 6:56 pm: | |
To Jelk's point - she mentions what other institutions are doing or have going on that draw people in, and the fact is that hasn't worked at the DIA. Believe me, lots of things have been tried. The fact of the matter is that people here simply value a museum differently. By that I mean, "I'm glad it's here, but I haven't been in years." That's pretty much the attitude. SS, despite the dumbing down of the museum, how many times have you been? And "beer and circus" is a play on a popular "highbrow" turn of phrase. 3 points if you can figure out what it is. |
Schoolcraft Member Username: Schoolcraft
Post Number: 73 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 7:08 pm: | |
She complains about" too many vodkas at parties in the Great Hall before lectures, (overly) long formal dinners surrounded by Diego Rivera's Detroit Industry frescoes (and sometimes dreadful bores at our table)" Then what does she want? Go off hours for solitude. So art can be fun too. Mix it up. Have theme nights. Make it more than tuxedo night with the pompous. I got it.Have a nudist night...with only paintings and sculptures...of nudes.Make attendees be naked as well. Expose more people to art, I say!!!! |
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 737 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 11:28 pm: | |
For a short time there I was going to support Schoolcraft. Then he got to talkin' 'bout Naked Night! I don't want to see a bunch of fat old art matrons naked! |
Schoolcraft Member Username: Schoolcraft
Post Number: 75 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 8:51 am: | |
Sorry. That part was really my poor humor. Rarely translates in email. It was joke. (The DIA ADS? Expose yourself to Art? Where the fellow in a trenchcoat is flashing art)LOL |
Gannon
Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 7859 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 9:02 am: | |
Naked people cannot have deep pockets. The museum has seen what 'events' and highlighted travelling shows draw, so to have other unique ideas in an effort to increase attendance is perfectly normal behavior. Any dialogue contrary to 'growth' is against the long-term existence of this institution in an age of lowered corporate donations. This is another traditional institution caught in the churning wake of industrialism's dash to the third world and beyond. Remember all those stories about how happy we's be in a total service society?! (there is nothing quite like fresh-squeezed orange juice) |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 923 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:06 pm: | |
Elitists have always tried (and failed) to define art. People still whine about the television art. CBC2 Radio does a great job of attracting younger viewers to their classical music schedule. Hip hosts of shows, and Brave New Waves at night. Should they also be flogged? |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4167 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 3:50 pm: | |
It suddenly occurs to me that this writers problems with the DIA pale in comparison to metro Detroit’s sheer love of its own ignorance. Based on DialH's comments the DIA is in a no win situation. I guess as long as Detroit is over-populated by low-brow shmucks like Patrick and Sport our great cultural institutions will continue to make compromises like those discussed in the Metro Times in order to survive. Detroit can only be as world-class as its citizens. Right now Detroit is Gopher Prairie with taller buildings. There is a difference between CBC2 and what the Metro Times writer is describing. CBC2 doesn't try to dumb down their programming for idiots who think that "in the end, it's just a bunch of paint on a piece of canvas." Edward R. Murrow once said "just once in a while let us exalt the importance of ideas and information." The DIA is exactly the kind of place where that exalting should take place. Cultural institutions aren't entertainment venues expected to compete head on with boxing matches, reality TV, and rock and roll shows. Cultural institutions should teach and inspire. They should remind us that we should all aspire to be more than middle-brow sheepole amused by a trained bear driving a go-kart. If, at the end of the day, the DIA is nothing more than a way to pad Detroit's resume and provide the kind of entertainment distraction usually found in Stuff magazine; if there really is no difference between Michelangelo’s David and a Playgirl centerfold; if it's all just dogs playing poker then I think we have to reconsider the whole concept of public cultural institutions. |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1017 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 4:31 pm: | |
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cNc XV5_juq0 http://youtube.com/watch?v=daD GBeffysk |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 3439 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 6:40 pm: | |
I don't know.... maybe mixing the wine & cheese crowd with the beer & pretzel crowd is not such a good idea.... It just leads to this type of social upheaval! I think that "raising the barre" and fondling coarse fabrics, is a bit too low brow for the "candlelight supper" class. And we don't want the steerage class oogling over naked statues with their surly remarks and off handed lurid comments about a torrid love affair between master and student... next thing you know they will be off in other galleries looking for paintings of that Italian guy (from a Saturday Night Live skit) who's last name starts with "TIT"... Mixing the Hoi Poloi with the lower middle class.... I tell you, nothing good will come of it!!
|
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 926 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 8:49 pm: | |
The DIA isnt "dumbing down their programming" either. Their "programming" is the art. The art remains the same no matter who comes through the door and no matter what the premise to bring them through the door. If I wear jeans instead of a suit, am I demonstrating less exaltation for the art? I don't think so. |
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 759 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:08 pm: | |
The DIA is reaching out to touch others that may not be art critics or socialites. I see no reason why this is a reason to complain. If they sold the Van Gogh and instead put up copies that kids did in crayon, that would be a different story. (Although it would be an interesting exhibition to mix both). I suppose the writer complained about when DPS would have its showings at the DIA too? Much to do about nothing if you ask me. |
Citylover Member Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2035 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 11:28 pm: | |
It is interesting how threatened some of you feel by any criticism or observation that just might take some to task. The woman that wrote the piece is a patron of the DIA; shouldn't she have the privelege to say what she thinks? Without the usual perfunctory responses? I don't know much about art.I do know that some art is better than other art. If that were not so then we would all be artists and people would buy our work.But of course that is not true. Here is an excerpt from abook by Pete Hamil ..Why Sinatra matters".. obviously about Frank Sinatra but also about why real artistic expression matters I would include any artistic endeavor. . The music remains. In times to come, that music will continue to matter, whatever happens to our evolving popular culture. The world of my grandchildren will not listen to Sinatra in the way four generations of Americans have listened to him. But high art always survives. Long after his death, Charlie Parker still plays his version of the urban blues. Billie Holiday still whispers her anguish. Mozart still erupts in joy. Every day, in cities and towns all over the planet, someone discovers them for the first time and finds in their art that mysterious quality that makes the listener more human. In their work all great artists help transcend the solitude of individuals; they relieve the ache of loneliness; they supply a partial response to the urging of writer E. M. Forster: "Only connect." In their ultimate triumph over the banality of death, such artists continue to matter. So will Frank Sinatra. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11132 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 12:29 am: | |
Wow, I find myself agreeing with something CL has to say. It must be getting late and I am tired, or something. Along those lines though, say you had to serve beer and hot dogs to get a certain crowd to come to an event that was dedicated to Frank Sinantra's music. What if just a small portion of this crowd gained a great interest from this event, would it still be seen as "dumbing down" the event? Perhaps other cities can avoid these "dumbing down" events simply because their regions have higher populations. Perhaps their population tends to be more educated, more sophisticated, then so be it, glad it works for them. The fact is, traditional ways weren't working here, so they adapted. Perhaps Jelk isn't a good fit for Detroit, as it seems he will inevitably be "dumbed down" by the masses here. I guess you can take the boy outta Grosse Pointe, but ya can't take the Grosse Pointe outta him, elitist indeed. |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 1892 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 12:49 am: | |
First of all, if you had any experience with Grosse Pointe, you'd know that it is hardly the bastion of elitist aesthetic appreciation you imagine it to be. The complaint really seems to be ... the appreciation of fine art is something that is learned, but we live in a culture where something must be understood at first glance or else people dismiss it. Once upon a time, people aspired to understanding what made art good or important, or how to use proper grammar, or how to dress properly, etc. But now, you are an elitist if you expect that appreciation of art takes a little work, or that subject/predicate agreement is important. I didn't always appreciate the collections of the DIA or other museums, although I knew that people who know more than I did found the work worthwhile. I learned. And while I still may not always appreciate certain art forms or understand certain pieces, I recognize that there is something there for me to learn. I am happy that at this point I don't need to be "sucked in" with gimmicks. But at one point I did walk through museums thinking "OK, I should get this, but I don't." I would add to this that I personally have no problem ignoring the gimmicky tactics the Metro Times author complains about. One can always find a way to appreciate the art on a personal level. Maybe just go on a Wednesday afternoon. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11133 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:16 am: | |
Dial4hipster, You see, that is just it. You simply learned to conform to what the art critiques agree is a great piece of artwork. It's not something new, it's the way it has been throughout history. The critiques have all decided long ago what is and isn't great artwork, and people simply follow their lead. Art is what you make of it. While some artists are quite obviously more talented than others, perhaps their work, as great as it may seem to those who have "formed an appreciation," to many others they don't even take a second look at it. Take Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Liza for example. One of the most popular paintings in history. I look at it and see some average looking woman with no eyebrows. Now you can tell me how great it is, point out how great others say it is, yet in reality it's a rather dull looking painting that is popular simply because others have told you it is. Now not to say I can't appreciate his other works of art, it's simply I refuse to accept that everything the guy did was a masterpiece. Now, if you don't conform to the standard that has been created, then you simply don't know art. Don't dress like they do, then you aren't accepted. Want to change the way you display art and draw people in, and you will drive away some of the elitists, as they want their little circle where everybody is in agreement with what is and isn't art. They don't want some average Joe in a t-shirt and blue jeans telling them they don't like a piece of art that is considered a masterpiece by those with "an appreciation." |
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond
Post Number: 115 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:51 am: | |
"critic" "Mona Lisa" -although I am sure DH4H will appreciate the reference to Liza. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4173 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:58 am: | |
I'm not sure who "the critiques" are exactly however da Vinci painted the "Mona Lisa" not the "Mona Liza". Let's follow Sporto's logic to other obvious conclusions. Why read James Joyce or Milton or China Achebe when Dainelle Steele writes so many romance novels? Why go to the Redford to screen Citizen Kane when the American Idol movie is at the Star Southfield? Why admire a Ferrari just because the auto experts say it is a cooler car than a Ford Probe? What do the experts, nay "critiques", know? In the end it's just metal and paint and rubber. I have a sudden urge to go home and re-read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance but then I think, screw it, why not just read MotoCross magazine. |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1018 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 10:27 am: | |
Jelk your argument is easily turned around. Many "elitists" prefer the simplicities of bourgeois life. For instance, why read Marcel Proust when I can read Bill Bryson? Why go to the Maple Art in Bloomfield Hills to screen "The Painted Veil" when I can go to the Star Southfield and watch "Harold & Kumar Go To White Castle"? Why should I admire the latest in blandness from Jaguar just because the auto experts say it is a cooler car than the Ford Interceptor? All of this elitism gives me the sudden urge to read The Nation but then I think, screw it, I'd rather have my Newsweek. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4175 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
It sounds like exactly the same argument. If one considers Harold and Kumar "the same thing" as The Painted Veil then I would hardly call them elitists. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11135 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 10:47 am: | |
...but you have to admit, Doogie Howsers appearance had you cracking up. |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1019 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
I didn't say they were the same thing. Harold & Kumar is better. If you don't think so, I'm guessing a number of "elitist" rich frat boys from NYC or NJ at UofM will argue that point. |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 1893 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 10:57 am: | |
Well Sport has made an interesting argument, the biggest flaw in which is the fact that it assumes people innately know what has merit and what does not. But you forget that there are rules to art, and guidelines to what creates balance in a painting, or what involves excellent use of color, or shadow and light. And once you learn them, your appreciate for art increases. It's not about "conforming" or "buying into their rules" or anything like that. I know you have positioned yourself as the scrappy outsider, but having zero relevant art education and stating as you defy convention and your informed opinion is that art is solely "what you make of it" carries that a bit to the extreme, don't you think? It's an *awfully* nonconformist hippy attitude for a republican. And saying the Mona Lisa is simply a picture of "an average looking woman with no eyebrows" just makes you look more the simpleton. I was volunteering at the DIA maybe 5 years ago at a new members open house, and I was sitting next to the Friends of Modern Art table. A woman came by - an elementary school teacher from Romeo - and started talking to the volunteer there. She was talking about how great the DIA is, and how she prefers the more classical styles of art to modern. As the conversation progressed the volunteer was saying that even if you don't love it, there is a lot to gain from an appreciation for it, at which point the woman said "well, I don't need to understand it. I know horse manure when I see it." And I just though, huh, nice to see this kind of academic curiosity teaching today's young people. You just reminded me of her. Hey E_Hemingway, I think you missed Jelk's point. He is not saying that you must eschew common pleasures to be able to appreciate finer things. He is saying that there are REASONS the finer things are, well, finer. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4176 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 10:59 am: | |
Your rich frat boys aren't elitists in the context of this conversation. We are talking about cultural and intellectual elitists (i.e. people with an appreciation of fine art, classical music, great literature, etc) not some middle-brow asshole whose dad own a dealership. |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1020 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:16 am: | |
Actually, these rich frat boys are exactly the type of elitists we're talking about. These are not the sons of auto dealership owners. These are the sons of world-class investment bankers who grew up on, and appreciating, the Met and Broadway. They'll talk your ear about Voltaire or Voltron. They are also the ones who sneer at the DIA and dismiss downtown Detroit's architecture as nothing more than the equivalent of garden sheds compared to Manhattan's skyscrapers. These guys are, like it or not, the next generation to take up residence in the Upper East Side, which sets the standard for the wine-and-cheese crowd. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1300 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:23 am: | |
Those aren't the ones going to UofM though, those are the ones at Yale and Harvard and Stanford. The ones at UofM are mostly from Montclair and like to claim they're New Yorkers. |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1022 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:33 am: | |
There is some truth to that, however, the elitism stereotypically runs just as deep no matter where you're from in the Tri-State area. Can you honestly say there is any tangible difference in the degree that someone from the Upper East Side looks down their nose on Detroit compared to someone from North Caldwell? |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4177 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:34 am: | |
No I think we are talking about elitists like Christina Hill. If I grew up in Manhattan, I'd probably think Detroit was low rent as well. Then again I would probably think Chicago and Philadelphia are low rent as well. However that is so beside the point it's not even worth discussing. |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 1895 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:36 am: | |
E_hemingway, are you having the same discussion as the rest of us? I am not sure you understand what we are talking about when we say elitism. We are discussing intellectual or cultural elitism, you know, the kind practiced by college professors, the well-educated, the intellectually curious and fancy art teachers. We're not talking about a social elitism, although in a venn diagram of these two groups there can be some overlap. Regardless, your group there is not who we are talking about. |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1023 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
My point is there is not much difference in certain groups of elites and they're not as "elite" as they portray themselves. It's sort of like discussing the difference in unions. Some are more progressive while others are just downright backward. Some specialize in organizing carpenters while others organize anybody who comes up to them. But at the end of the day they're still unions. Is Christina Hill any less of an elitist than George W. Bush or some NYC frat boy at UofM? I bet you all three believe they're not only socially elite but intellectually elite as well. And quite frankly, all three are full of crap. I haven't seen the DIA's interactive exhibits, but from what I have seen written here I'm guessing they're not that impressive. That doesn't mean the idea of interactive exhibits or making the exhibits more palatable for the general public should be dismissed. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11136 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 1:44 pm: | |
quote:I know you have positioned yourself as the scrappy outsider, but having zero relevant art education and stating as you defy convention and your informed opinion is that art is solely "what you make of it" carries that a bit to the extreme, don't you think? It's an *awfully* nonconformist hippy attitude for a republican. Ok, that last line had me cracking up. I'm not all that well informed on art, hardly at all for that matter. The classes I took in college studying different periods of art went in one ear and out the other. You may think that may make me in the minority, but I personally feel I'm more closer to the middle of the road, possible the majority who attend art museums like the DIA. I'll agree with your scenario taking into account the art teacher from Romeo as the woman being more of a hinderance to the art community given her position. I can relate, though along the lines of the automotive hobbiest. At one time I thought I had a pretty clean cut idea of what hotrodding and being a gearhead was all about. When the whole rice burner phase took place in recent years, I looked at their cars and laughed. I didn't consider them part of the hobby, nor did they warrant space in Cobo during autorama. At the time, I felt they had nothing in common with my hobby. As time would pass, I realized that while I may not like their cars, they really were into them for the same reason I was into mine. From customization to modification, their goals were often the same as me. They wanted to build a unique car, with more power than factory, with better handling. They wanted to build a car that stuck out amongst the crowd. I view the art community as much the same. Some people are more deeply involved and knowledgable of the art, others simply observe it and enjoy it, but perhaps don't get the deep meaning that the art elitist feel. Perhaps Jelk makes some good points, but the way he degrades people as some lower form of life because they don't get a hard-on over certain forms of art sure isn't a means attract them to museums. Perhaps not everybody cares to know about the culture and meaning behind art, perhaps it's just not their thing. I've been to the DIA 3 times in my life. I enjoyed it each time, though aside from the Diego Rivera mural, I doubt I could describe a single other piece of work there. Yet that won't stop me from returning sometime soon. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4178 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 2:32 pm: | |
quote:I'm not all that well informed on art, hardly at all for that matter. The classes I took in college studying different periods of art went in one ear and out the other. You may think that may make me in the minority, but I personally feel I'm more closer to the middle of the road, possible the majority who attend art museums like the DIA. I suspect most people visiting the DIA understand that art is more than just paint on a canvass. I fairly sure they understand that an exhibit of Van Gogh's work is more significant than Bob Ross-style landscapes sold at the Georgian Inn. I would hope they go to the DIA looking for a little enlightenment as opposed to Sporto who acts like an ugly American bumpkin tourist looking to be entertained. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11139 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
Yeah, and that's why they are imposing these "cheesy" means to attract people. Riiiight. ps...have ya ever tried NASCAR? |
Pam Member Username: Pam
Post Number: 894 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:35 pm: | |
quote:though aside from the Diego Rivera mural, I doubt I could describe a single other piece of work there. You would probably like area with the suits of armor and the antique weapons. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 3571 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:01 am: | |
I found the article a bit peevish and while she made some good points, the manner in which she expressed her feelings left something to be desired. The notion of ‘reverence for art’ probably evolved from the fact that for centuries most art of Europe and the Americas, particularly that available to the serfs and commoners, was only experienced in the churches. With the 20th C rise of abstract and conceptual art came a new priesthood of explainers. The average person could no longer have direct communication with the gods of art; they had to rely on the intermediaries of curators, critics, and aestheticians. In religious terms, it was as if the Reformation had been reversed and once again only the priests could read and explain the Bible. Some have argued that the patron class, the nouveau riche and the remnants of the aristocracy who bought the art, were initially appalled by new directions. Later they warmed to it as it provided a new social barrier. If their gardener and maids were dumbfounded by what the master bought, the social separation was enhanced – even if master had no glimmer what the artist was doing. The masses did not understand but thought their superiors did and that is all that mattered. Style and "what is art" could be controlled by those 'who knew', those who had special ‘inside’ knowledge. The rest could only remotely approach it through diligent study, quiet reverent observation and learning from authorities like Ms. Hill. Art museums were/are dying for the same reasons churches are – they became boring mausoleums that stifled the joy and spirit of art. The DIA can be criticized for their clumsy attempts at outreach, and they have laid some big eggs, but at least they are getting a clue. I renewed my membership two weeks ago. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11144 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:21 am: | |
quote:You would probably like area with the suits of armor and the antique weapons. Quite possibly my favorite area of the DIA. I totally enjoy history museums, used to have a membership to Henry Ford/Greenfield Village for a few years, visiting whenever I had a few hours to spare. Every person has their own personal interests. I find it troubling that people like Jelk find events to be "dumbed down" when they try to attract people through other means. Not everybody is going to share the same interests, why degrade the people for not sharing the same appreciation? Hell, there are quite a few rules to baseball I don't understand, even more for hockey, and yet I still go. I hit around 50 games last year, yet probably couldn't name a dozen players from other baseball teams. So what? It cracks me up how seriously some fans take the game, as they are ONLY games. Everybody has different passions, it's what makes us all different and interesting in our own ways. So just to clarify, I can now bring a sixer of my favorite brew while enjoying a stroll through the DIA? |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 7865 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 7:12 am: | |
Just put it in a camelback under your coat and sip through the plastic straw, just like the rest of us. Of course, Dial's is champagne. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4183 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:40 am: | |
quote:I find it troubling that people like Jelk find events to be "dumbed down" when they try to attract people through other means. I find it troubling that people think it appropriate to go to a cultural/educational facility like the DIA and not make the effort to learn about what they looking at and why it is significant. Art is not just paint on a canvass nor is it an entertaining distraction like a Larry the Cable Guy performance. Sadly (for both him and the rest of us) Sport lacks the imagination to understand how to appreciate art. I'm hardly an art expert. However I'm smart enough to realize that the more I understand about art and the more I am able to learn from art experts, the greater the experience. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11145 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:26 pm: | |
You drive a car. Are you able to strip the car down and rebuild it from the frame up? I find it sad that you lack the talent or imagination to complete such a task, and yet you still drive a car. Not everybody is interested in something to the point that they want to learn about it and understand it, some people wish to simply enjoy it for what it is. Why do you choose to look down upon people because they don't share similar interests? |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4185 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:39 pm: | |
How the hell can you "enjoy" something if you don't know what the hell it is. While I may not be able to rebuild a car, I do know enough about cars to understand what a mechanic is talking about and when said mechanic attempts to explain something that I don't understand...I listen and hope to learn. That's the difference between people like me and people like you. You have pre-determined your interests and proudly proclaim your ignorance about anything else. Others, however, see the value in being educated in things that wouldn't qualify as an "interest" or passion. In other words there is something to be gained from learning a little about art beyond just knowledge of art. It's like a discussion about the relative merits of a liberal arts education versus vocational training. A Liberal art proponent believe students should receive a comprehensive overview of the world. Vocationalists think he you are going to end up a carpenter all you need to know is how to cut wood. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11146 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:00 pm: | |
quote:How the hell can you "enjoy" something if you don't know what the hell it is. You ever try new foods, not knowing what they are, yet still like it? Ever watch a movie per somebody else's recommendation, not knowing what it's about, yet still enjoy it? Ever go watch a band, knowing nothing about how to play an instrument, yet still enjoy the music? Ever watch the Gold Cup on the river, have a fun time, yet know little about the machines racing around in circles? You consider yourself an elitist, you have an elitist mentality. I like to enjoy things in life without always taking the time to fully understand all of them. I like to concentrate on the things I already enjoy and increase my understanding of those things. I have more hobbies than I have time for as it is. Why would I look to broaden my understanding into an area I have little interest? That tells me a person is either bored, or lacks any significant number of hobbies, neither of which applies to me. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4186 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:41 pm: | |
quote:I like to enjoy things in life without always taking the time to fully understand all of them. Says it all right there. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4187 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:57 pm: | |
Let me add...
quote:You ever try new foods, not knowing what they are, yet still like it? Yes and if I like it I try to find out what it was I just ate.
quote:Ever watch a movie per somebody else's recommendation, not knowing what it's about, yet still enjoy it? No usually when someone recommends a film they tell me why they liked it. Even if someone didn't give reasons for their recommendation, I could tell you why I liked the film by the end of it.
quote:Ever go watch a band, knowing nothing about how to play an instrument, yet still enjoy the music? Yes but I can tell you how the instrument is played. For instance a guitar is strummed with one hand using fingers or a pick while the guitar's strings are manipulated with the other hand in order to make a variety of sounds.
quote:Ever watch the Gold Cup on the river, have a fun time, yet know little about the machines racing around in circles? When I was 6. Today I know a little bit about boat racing, always willing to learn more, and I know quite a bit about the history of powerboat racing. That understanding makes the races that much more enjoyable. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11147 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:34 pm: | |
quote:That understanding makes the races that much more enjoyable. Thought you just said you haven't been since you were 6? Anyways, we can go round and round all day. You apparently feel everybody needs to learn all there is to know about everything you appreciate. If they don't, then they don't deserve to enjoy the same things you do. If attempts are made to draw in new people to attractions that aren't up to your standards, then you badger them for taking a low brow approach. You'd rather they just passed out books to the new attendees and tell them to read about it. You see, you pool everybody together, believing that everybody should be constantly learning about new things, trying to understand all there is to know. What about those who are illiterate? How about those who take the vocational route in which you state their perspective is "all you need to know is how to cut wood." I've met some very talented carpenters, some of which have amazing vision for building things out of wood. They never attended college or any other vocational education, they simply had the talent. You make it sound as if this type of life is less fulfilling than a more educated route in life, I disagree. You see, elitist are never happy until people achieve a level in which they approve of. If people try to infiltrate their little social circles, they pull out their elitist card and degrade these people, as well as the institutions. Some people will never live up to the standards you expect of them. I guess the question is, why the hell does it seem to bother you so much? Live and let live buddy, not everybody cares to read books 24/7 and pound their chest while reminding others what their IQ is. |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 529 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:02 pm: | |
I guess I'm still trying to get over my surprise at learning that anyone who cares about art and/or the DIA actually reads the Metro Times, or cares enough about what they read in it to have a reaction. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4191 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:06 pm: | |
Some people pound their chest (HOT FUDGE SHOUT OUT ALERT) about their high IQ and their interest in knowledge and culture. Others pound their chest about their low IQ and celebrate their ignorance. |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 932 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
There's a correct way to appreciate art? What is the correct way for me to appreciate the art in a flower growing in a field? Do I need to know about stamens? |
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez
Post Number: 129 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 5:11 pm: | |
BUMP! |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4198 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
Sometimes I tend to over think things and that can lead to missing the point. Reviewing this thread I can say this is one of those times. This thread isn't about art or appreciating art or culture or any of the rest. The real subject of this thread is raw, unadulterated tribalism. If this opinion piece were critical of an art museum in Chicago or Ann Arbor or even Toledo everyone complaining, almost to a man, would be cheering on the author. "See! See! Big, bad Chicago is dumbing down art. Thank God they don't do that at the DIA. Yeah Detroit!" It's this same kind of totemism that leads Catholic Irish and Protestant Irish to kill each other. Or Serb and Croat. I guess we should be fortunate that our tribalist bullshit only leads to a few numb nuts with 77 pressed and laundered Detroit -shirts hanging neatly in their closets. Except it isn't that simple. There is no bigger problem facing Detroit than its provincialism. For a big city we can act very small town. Too many Detroiters love to revel in our collective problems. They keep us “real” or “gritty” or something equally stupid. It didn't matter if Christina Hill had a valid point or not, she said something someone might think is a knock of Detroit and by-gum we best better string her up, then she'll know what's what. If we keep this up Detroiters will always be, to paraphrase Peter O'Toole in Lawrence of Arabia, a little people, silly people. Greedy, barbarous, and cruel. Ah fuck it, so long as a Hareth doesn't drink at a Howeitat well Sport will be happy. |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1034 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 11:26 am: | |
Jelk: I agree with half of what you said. "There is no bigger problem facing Detroit than its provincialism" is a dead-on statement. However, this thread is more about elitism in general than Yay Detroit. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11159 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 12:41 pm: | |
Yeah, the whole art article was thrown out the door long ago. I thought we had switched over to elitism, where upon Jelk once again resorts to his old school tactics. Now apparently the clothes somebody chooses to where is important to him. Jelk would have had a field day Saturday night, poking fun at all the low IQ folks at the bar from monster jam. Though he probably stayed inside, for fear of his own safety. Those low brow kind of folks would have simply grabbed a barstool and gave him a few whacks when they got tired of listening to his bs. Why is it you feel the need to boast about your IQ, number of books you read, and how cultured you are? Do you think people are impressed, or does it simply make you feel better? |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4201 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
You're right Sport. BE ADEQUITE! |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11162 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 6:16 pm: | |
Typical elitist schitt, as if mispellings are something new on here. Pat yourself on the back regardless, as you obviously need the constant positive reinforcement and recognition. |
Jelk Member Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4203 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:15 am: | |
And now a section from T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland"...
quote: April is the cruelest month, breeding Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing Memory and desire, stirring Dull roots with spring rain. Winter kept us warm, covering Earth in forgetful snow, feeding A little life with dried tubers. Summer surprised us, coming over the Starnbergersee With a shower of rain; we stopped in the colonnade, And went on in sunlight, into the Hofgarten, And drank coffee, and talked for an hour. Bin gar keine Russin, stamm' aus Litauen, echt deutsch. 12 And when we were children, staying at the arch-duke's, My cousin's, he took me out on a sled, And I was frightened. He said, Marie, Marie, hold on tight. And down we went. In the mountains, there you feel free. I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter. 18 What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow Out of this stony rubbish?Son of man, 20 You cannot say, or guess, for you know only A heap of broken images, where the sun beats, And the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, 23 And the dry stone no sound of water. Only There is shadow under this red rock, (Come in under the shadow of this red rock), And I will show you something different from either Your shadow at morning striding behind you Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you; I will show you fear in a handful of dust. http://eliotswasteland.tripod. com/ |
Amy_p Member Username: Amy_p
Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:47 am: | |
There once was a Detroitster from Nantucket... |
Llyn Member Username: Llyn
Post Number: 1768 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 8:36 pm: | |
Yeah, well, I think the article is much ado about nothing. Straining at gnats and swallowing camels? No, just straining at gnats... |
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1047 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 6:25 am: | |
DIA pins survival on new audience http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070129/O PINION03/701290305 |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11182 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 1:32 am: | |
What beers will they have on tap? |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 1904 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 1:37 am: | |
Are you still talking? |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8088 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
Why you dissin' the Heartbeat of Detroit, Dial?! |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11183 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
He's a hater. |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8090 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 10:43 am: | |
Don't immediately assume hate, Sport. That one you've got to earn. It might be more like jealousy. Same with Jelk. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 2979 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:17 am: | |
Ms. Hill simplifies things a bit. The idea that in the posh, hip city of Los Angeles, there is any one "hip" scene on Saturday night is very naive. Art museums spent a great deal of the early 20th century becoming the mausoleums that Lowell referred to. Hall after hall of fat old dead white people... Gradually, they seem to be realizing that they need to get a new audience, or they will end up like Sander's. But how to do it? It's tricky to let down your hair when it's been pinned up for so many decades. It's hard to dance on the bar when you've been sitting by the fire for most of your life. So let's allow them a few moments of awkwardness, avert our eyes, and give them credit for trying. At the same time, let's urge them to try harder. My favorite moment at the DIA was about 8 years ago when The White Stripes played Rivera Court. There were all these family members of the band standing there with toddlers on their shoulders, swaying to the music. I realized that all those kids were going to grow up with fond memories of the DIA and would one day bore their own kids with the stories. That's the kind of thing that needs to happen monthly...Oh, and it would be nice to see the SRL Robots on the lawn once in a while too. http://www.srl.org/ |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8100 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
Brilliant, Barnes. I think I owe you a pint for that one...when's the next Slows lunch?! |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 2983 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:01 pm: | |
springtime, G. I'm sunning my tailfeathers in warmer climes for a while. |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 590 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:43 pm: | |
Jesus!! Talk about The Thread That Would Not Die... This thread probably represents the absolute most interest/reaction ever generated by anything ever printed in the Metro Times, ever EVER |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8112 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
Barnes, Never saw a dirty dog with tailfeathers, at least not its own! Jealous of you missing our sub-freezing temps. Cheers! LOL @ Ravine. Almost like Groundhog Day, perhaps one go-'round we'll get it right so the credits can finally roll. |
Pam Member Username: Pam
Post Number: 976 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 1:38 pm: | |
quote:My favorite moment at the DIA was about 8 years ago when The White Stripes played Rivera Court. Unless they played there more than once, I think that concert was more recent. I saw them there too but I think it was in 2001. |
Supersport Member Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11184 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 2:04 pm: | |
quote:Jesus!! Talk about The Thread That Would Not Die... This thread probably represents the absolute most interest/reaction ever generated by anything ever printed in the Metro Times, ever EVER Whoa, who's talking about some Metro Times article? I wonder, has the DIA pondered sponsoring a NASCAR? |
Gannon Member Username: Gannon
Post Number: 8119 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 2:21 pm: | |
It should be the other way around... |
Soulsauce Member Username: Soulsauce
Post Number: 184 Registered: 05-2004
| Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 12:12 pm: | |
I'm surprised that no one posted the Director's response to Ms. Hill's article. http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=10115 |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 3684 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 2:29 am: | |
Thanks for the heads up Soulsauce! Good thing she renewed her subscription this year... I have a feeling it may be her last, the way Mr. Beal gave her here comeupance! |
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 1936 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
I had a little tour of the new Dutch Gilded Age galleries this week. The way the galleries are being organized is *very* interesting, informative, and frankly, quite entertaining. Framing this in the discussion of "dumbing down" the museum, I have to say that there is definitely an added "user friendliness" to the writeups in each gallery. I wasn't a huge fan of the writing style, I thought it seemed a little "FAQ." But that format will definitely be accessible to most who pass through the museum. The plans for "hands-on" portions of the gallery really don't sound too lowbrow to me at all, and were clearly not meant to be a focal point in any way. The great part is you can skip the commentary and enjoy the art for art's sake, if that's what you prefer. But assuming the Dutch gallery follows the template of the entire reinstallation, my guess is that the new organizational style of the galleries will be appreciated by museum veterans and newbies alike. It all looks very promising! |
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1016 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 10:05 pm: | |
Hey Dialh, is the gallery still up on 3 South, or have they moved it after the addition? |
River_rat Member Username: River_rat
Post Number: 252 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
quote: "That high cultural institutions resort to beer and circus tactics to attract the homo neanderthalensis is a tragic commentary on our culture." Well, after all, this is Detroit. |