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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1074
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this was posted on another board...does anyone know the story with this?

Click on: Portfolio->Corporate

http://www.gma-la.com/site.htm l
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5447
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yippy! Another superblock. Good intentions, but as often with developments downtown, they manage to somehow mess it up, IMO. But, many won't care. They'll see some much needed greenery and redevelopment, and look past the faults, and laud it as a success. Whatever. lol
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 523
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks like the perfect sort of thing for Wixom.
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 161
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW. I completly hate the ugly ass parking lots that surround the complex today. I acually like the park like setting mostly for the benefit of providing outdoor spaces for the MGM MONSTER NEXT DOOR.
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Stephenvb
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Username: Stephenvb

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Downtown, this massive greening project substantially reduces surface parking on the DTE property. Is DTE attempting to become carbon-neutral at this location? There must be several hundred new trees around this thing. I'm still looking for wind turbines in the open field north of Plum Street.

I'm not sure about the rolling edges of the pond, the "floating" visitor drop-off area off to the south, or the seemingly forced continuation of Plum Street, but this is an interesting "vision."

I haven't been up close to the MGM site. Is third street to become a boulevard with the MGM project or is it part of DTE's vision?
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1075
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know if this is something they actually plan to do, or are these just plans from years ago that they decided not to fund?
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 896
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking that maybe I would see one of the ugliest buildings downtown gone, but no, even worse. That is an absolutely irresponsible layout for anywhere in an urban condition. AHHHHHH! The only good thing is that the surface parking lots are replaced with green spaces.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 897
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought that maybe we were past the Mies van der Rohe era and we could get back to the idea of filling out the blocks instead of having a high rise in the middle of an urban field...
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Southen
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Username: Southen

Post Number: 159
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im starting to wonder how current these plans are. In the rendering there is no massing for MGM and off in the distance you can see the Statler Hotel still standing. Maybe they were scrapped.
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 1366
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What an ugly and dumb project.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 899
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Southern, one can import his 3D massing into google earth, as it appears this firm has done in that second image. My point being that I think that the massing for the Statler is still in the google earth program, so I don't know that that necessarily indicates when this rendering was made.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9002
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 9:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like it for the current state of downtown. The benefit being that it will create some nice green space but if the time ever came when downtown property was valuable enough I am sure DTE would consider selling for other development.
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Planner_727
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Username: Planner_727

Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this is a great project. Coupled with MGM Grand, this corner of "downtown" will transform from 20 blocks of surface parking and a few DTE buildings to an urban, sparkling new corner of development. The green space will be a great accent/link between MGM and the new arena across Grand River. I'm guessing DTE probably made a pretty penny selling all of thier surface lots and are putting it into making what is left a nice space. Really brings some nice color to a very dirty, ugly part of downtown.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 698
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All things considered, it looks better than 10 blocks of asphalt. I doubt DTE is currently considering selling off any of their property in the area currently, so what else would they do with it? As long as they don't throw up gates around it...
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Downtownguy
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Username: Downtownguy

Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks very suburban... sort of like Ford HQ
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 137
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You would think that being right next to a Casino might make it a good spot to develop some of that property for commercial/retail use.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 901
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

El_jimbo, hopefully those sort of developments can end up in the old Cass Tech.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2429
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I threw up a little bit in my mouth. Then again, DTE hired a landscape architect, so what did you expect? On the other hand, these guys are no Frederick Law Olmsted.

You see all those people in the renderings? They won't be there in real life.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 904
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just sort of reminds me of the 'urban renewal' of the 1960s all over again. A high rise in the middle of a landscaped planting bed.
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Jelk
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Username: Jelk

Post Number: 4352
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I like it for the current state of downtown. The benefit being that it will create some nice green space but if the time ever came when downtown property was valuable enough I am sure DTE would consider selling for other development.



Don't be logical jt1. It interferes with other people's righteous indignation.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 870
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, man. They just don't get it. Why the hell are they still trying to build the failed city of the 1960s forty years later and counting?
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3831
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The plan is for enhancements to the perimeter of the existing complex. Those "towers in the sky" are decades old already. They aren't building anything new. Folks who bill themselves as Detroitnerds ought to know that.

The DTE campus houses much of their operational infrastructure and is the nerve center for much of SE Mi electric and gas grids. For security reasons, there are large setbacks that will never be built upon and are tightly controlled and patrolled. And yes, the Homeland Security office of Detroit has poked their nose into this issue as well.

Whether or not the campus should have been built or expanded upon there is a moot point. Its there and has been for decades. It is a condition that has to be dealt with.

The question is how do you create enhancements that meet the security needs of power systems in a post McNamara Building / 9/11 world.

One could question the aesthetics of the design, which to me seems to try too hard...or one could suggest improvements to the design, keeping in mind that you have to deal with the reality of the security issues and the fact that those facilities are not going to move.
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Buddyinrichmond
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Username: Buddyinrichmond

Post Number: 159
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah sure Skulker but wouldn't it still be cheaper and easier to just have them move?
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 906
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"For security reasons, there are large setbacks that will never be built upon and are tightly controlled and patrolled...The question is how do you create enhancements that meet the security needs of power systems in a post McNamara Building / 9/11 world."

Move their facilities to Washington Twp. where they can have all the green space around their building that they so desire, and let this site in the CBD be developed for CBD type densities! What a novel idea!!!
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 958
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DTE, just build an ARCOLOGY already! Total isolation! Woo hoo!
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 265
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I glanced for a few seconds.

did I see an slide for BC/BS also? #9?

Are they doing something there as well?

doing a park or something near Greektown???

(Message edited by emu_steve on May 02, 2007)
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2592
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You'd empty out a full building and replace it with what? There are already a huge number of empty office buildings downtown. Emptying out one more would not help things.

Turning flat parking lots into decks surrounded by grass is a huge improvement to the mess that is currently there.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2430
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The DTE campus houses much of their operational infrastructure and is the nerve center for much of SE Mi electric and gas grids. For security reasons, there are large setbacks that will never be built upon and are tightly controlled and patrolled. And yes, the Homeland Security office of Detroit has poked their nose into this issue as well.



Complete and utter horseshit. There's no excuse for landscaping out of "Office Space" in a downtown area. I fear raising this comparison but even we here in DC don't have ridiculous crap like this.

quote:

Whether or not the campus should have been built or expanded upon there is a moot point. Its there and has been for decades. It is a condition that has to be dealt with.



And the proper way to deal with it is to tax the shit out of the surface parking lots, so that either DTE builds on them, or sells them to someone who will.

I'm completely astounded at how anti-urban some of you pro-Detroiters are.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 907
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You'd empty out a full building and replace it with what? There are already a huge number of empty office buildings downtown."

No not necessarily Ndavies. I know for a fact that not all of the operations in that building need to be protected so that the terrorists don't bomb the building and put out the entire electrical grid. Just move out those sensitive operations; that's it! Problem solved, and we can go on and proceed as if it is any other average office tower downtown...
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 960
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

True, Ndavies, it is less ugly than what's there.

In Detroit, it seems we are often faced with a decision between between beautification and density, the problem being that Detroit has so much under-utilized land (vacant lots, parking lots, etc.). It would nice to have both but maybe this is a necessary first step. Beauty, and then sell the land for density later.

Or, add attached residential towers with connected pedestrian walkways, and make it a futuristic arcology -- no need for parking then!
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Chris_rohn
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Username: Chris_rohn

Post Number: 292
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)





I'd guess this is a pretty recent commission. They have the casino parking deck and new parking skywalk in the plan. What annoys me most about this design is how they took the site of the old city parking deck and put a surface parking lot on it, as if there aren't enough parking spots in that casino deck already.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 872
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The last forty years of urban planning scholarship? Who needs those? We have SECURITY CONCERNS.

See, they're not just reasons to dispense with civil liberties and fund an endless war against the rest of the world; they're also good reasons to jettison sensible urban planning. Why? Because the institutions that are shaping the city are SCARED OF THE PEOPLE IN IT. So, in the end, you don't end up with a city at all. You end up with walled-off campuses and earthworks and concrete berms. In other words, exactly what urban design has been replacing and rejecting (see RenCen) at GREAT COST.
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Mortgageking
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Username: Mortgageking

Post Number: 6
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

[quote]No not necessarily Ndavies. I know for a fact that not all of the operations in that building need to be protected so that the terrorists don't bomb the building and put out the entire electrical grid. Just move out those sensitive operations; that's it! Problem solved, and we can go on and proceed as if it is any other average office tower downtown...[/quote]

CharlottePaul, you are a fool. The entire nerve center for Detroit's Electrical Grid is in the basement of DTE's Cisler building; if you have ever seen it, you would know that it could not easily be duplicated elsewhere. The Operations Center is like mission-control, with two-story maps, and a ceiling like an IMAX screen to compensate for all the screens and maps.

Edison has been moving toward consolidating their operations to the downtown building for years, it now controls all of the reigon's distribution services, most of the transmission services and all of DTE's subtransmission services. It is much easier to provide security for one building than it is to have people spread all over town.

So why don't you stick to blabbering about the things you actually know something about. I'd be happy to hear about the Charlotte Bobcats.

That's It! Problem Solved!
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Downtown_dave
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Username: Downtown_dave

Post Number: 122
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Folks, this isn't the final plan, but one that was considered among a few DTE reviewed from a number of firms.

The current plan will completely landscape the gravel lot bordered by Bagley, First, Second and Plaza Drive, where the city parking structure used to be. There will be NO parking there.

The parcel north of Plum Street at the extreme north of DTE's property (closest to Cass Tech) will be sold. From South of Plum, the land to the DTE buildings will be landscaped.

Employees and contractors will park (as they now do) in the MGM parking garage. A small parking lot for headquarters visitors will be retained in front of the modern high-rise Walker Cisler Building.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 873
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While they're at it, why don't they just rename Plaza Drive what it used to be: Jones Street. It's a small matter, and I think it sounds better.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1083
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown_Dave:

Thanks for the info...that's what I was trying to find out...I was hoping everyone wouldn't get too out in left field with their opinions until we learned the background of this plan...personally I knew nothing about it until yesterday...

btw, how is it that you know so much? do you know what other companies DTE had do conceptual designs for their campus?
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 266
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like these plans no matter how tentative.

The idea, as some suggest, is to make ugly surface parking into something more attractive (or less ugly, depending on your take).

Then in maybe 5 to 10 years that property could be sold off for commercial developement.

It sounds like a reasonable, cost effective, short term fix which isn't too terribly expensive.

I'd think nothing inhibits development then thinking of putting up a new office building in a sea of surface parking.
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Detroitnerd
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Post Number: 874
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'd think nothing inhibits development then thinking of putting up a new office building in a sea of surface parking."

That's what they did. Detroit had a neighborhood back there, and then DTE took it over for parking. I think what we're forgetting is that DTE, through its real estate subsidiary, SYNDECO, laid waste to that part of town, left it a parking hell for years. Now they want to do away with the street grid too? Sigh. And, no doubt, they want to be praised for being progressive while they do it? Double-sigh.
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Downtown_dave
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Username: Downtown_dave

Post Number: 124
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thejesus, I work at DTE, and I don't know the names of other firms involved.

Just keep in mind that plans (of all kinds) generally change before the final element is put in place.
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Jelk
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Username: Jelk

Post Number: 4353
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I know for a fact that not all of the operations in that building need to be protected so that the terrorists don't bomb the building and put out the entire electrical grid. Just move out those sensitive operations; that's it! Problem solved, and we can go on and proceed as if it is any other average office tower downtown...



It's just that simple is it? So what tenants will replace the DTE operations moving to Washington Township? The office market is pretty flat downtown as I understand it. Who is moving into this "any other average office tower"? I don't think it make sense for DTE, speaking as a customer, to build a new facility, empty a significant portion of their headquarters, and not replace those operations with rent paying tenants.

But ok let's say they can do all of that and the security needs are met off-site in a economically sensible manner. I'll give you that. Now what do you do with that parking lot land? Build new buildings? For what purpose? Who buys/rents them? We are in a recession. A real estate bubble has burst. Oh and the DTE campus is just far enough out of downtown to be less convenient than other comparable site.

Where would you rather live. The DTE Skylofts (proposed) or somewhere like Brush Park or Merchants Row (allegedly cutting deals to attract new tenants)?

I give DTE credit for looking for realistic solutions for improving their property. As jt1 points out, if land values (and the city's overall vibrancy) improves, they could easily convert this green space into more urban developments.

As someone once said about politics: "don't make the good the enemy of the perfect."
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J_stone
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are many of us here Downtown_Dave.

Thank you mortgageking.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2431
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

That's what they did. Detroit had a neighborhood back there, and then DTE took it over for parking. I think what we're forgetting is that DTE, through its real estate subsidiary, SYNDECO, laid waste to that part of town, left it a parking hell for years. Now they want to do away with the street grid too? Sigh. And, no doubt, they want to be praised for being progressive while they do it? Double-sigh.



And DTE will likely tout this as a success of "green" policies. Except they won't tell you how much fertilizer and water they'll be wasting for their piece of pre-fab paradise.
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2432
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I give DTE credit for looking for realistic solutions for improving their property. As jt1 points out, if land values (and the city's overall vibrancy) improves, they could easily convert this green space into more urban developments.



That's incredibly optimistic of you. No way in hell DTE ever builds on this plastic park--not after all the money they're going to invest in it. And besides--it's "green space", which is always good.
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Buzzman0077
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Post Number: 66
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It'll at least make the lots surrounding the green space more attractive. If we got some density on those then this would make a nice park with which to live around. Either way it's much better then dusty old surface lots.
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Jelk
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

No way in hell DTE ever builds on this plastic park--not after all the money they're going to invest in it. And besides--it's "green space", which is always good.



You are right. There are dozens of developers beating down Tony Earley's door with development contracts and green money. They can't wait to build on that property. Between parks and parking lots, I choose parks.
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2433
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You are right. There are dozens of developers beating down Tony Earley's door with development contracts and green money. They can't wait to build on that property. Between parks and parking lots, I choose parks.




The patented Detroit "Do Something Just to Do Something" Strategy?
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Jelk
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Post Number: 4355
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan is right again. If we can't have a perfect solution we should live in shit...just to teach us a lesson.

(Message edited by Jelk on May 02, 2007)
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Mortgageking
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Username: Mortgageking

Post Number: 7
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

And DTE will likely tout this as a success of "green" policies. Except they won't tell you how much fertilizer and water they'll be wasting for their piece of pre-fab paradise



Dan, Do you ever shut up?
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2434
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Dan is right again. If we can't have a perfect solution we should live in shit...just to teach us a lesson.



Well, what is it? Hudsons and the Statler were torn down for parking lots because "nothing could be done" with those buildings, and the vacant buildings look bad.

Now there are too many parking lots, so it's a good idea to let DTE create a faux "campus" because it looks better than parking lots, and there isn't enough demand to build on them.

What's the next regression? You start tilling farmland or reforesting on Belle Isle and Grand Circus because there are too many parks? Maybe release some critters so the fur trappers come back and invest in Detroit?

All I'm saying is that foresight seems to be in short supply. On top of that, some of you have so little confidence in any kind of increased desirability of Detroit, you would rather expend as many resources as possible in a willy-nilly manner just because you can. That's like bitching you can't ever afford a steak dinner, when you're going out and eating McDonald's every night.
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Jelk
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Post Number: 4356
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There isn't a parking lot on either the Hudson's or the Statler site. Regardless, comparing the demolition of a building to creating green space out of a parking lot doesn't fly. It's apples and oranges.
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Supersport
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Post Number: 11545
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I threw up a little bit in my mouth.



DaninDC,

Perhaps next time you'll have to make it to the bathroom, as we'd all love a break from your idiotic bullshit. I don't mind outside perspectives or opinions on what is taking place in Detroit, but you, you give many of us a fuckin' headache. Nothing that this city does will ever live up to your standards, so why do you even bother? Detroit is a better place by having people like you relocate to places like DC. That way, those of us who love Detroit, those of us who actually live here, don't have to listen to your whiney ass bitch and complain in person.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2436
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Perhaps next time you'll have to make it to the bathroom, as we'd all love a break from your idiotic bullshit. I don't mind outside perspectives or opinions on what is taking place in Detroit, but you, you give many of us a fuckin' headache. Nothing that this city does will ever live up to your standards, so why do you even bother? Detroit is a better place by having people like you relocate to places like DC. That way, those of us who love Detroit, those of us who actually live here, don't have to listen to your whiney ass bitch and complain in person.



Take things a little personally, don't ya? And I wonder why I left wonderful, friendly folks like you to hang out with East Coast Snobs. Ironic, ain't it? I just can't imagine why kids from Michigan leave for other places when everyone in Detroit is just so damn POSITIVE all the time....
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 267
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me ask a 'newbie' type question:

Have these plans been developed after the MGM H-C was well along in construction?

What I'm getting at is: would these plans not happened had MGM not be putting up the H-C
'in the neighborhood'?

I'm trying to draw a "cause and effect relationship" between the construction of the MGM and DTE's desire to beautify the area.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4227
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Based on the fact that the skyway from the DTE complex is shown connected to the MGM parking structure, I tend to think that these images may be no more than 12-18 months old.

They probably didn't include the casino/hotel in their diagram so as not to distract from their design, or maybe because they weren't privy to the casino/hotel designs when these diagrams were generated.
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 268
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Gistok.

At least we have 'temporal sequence' (hope I got that right), i.e., the MGM plans or construction seem to have predated the DTE plans.

That leads me to believe that DTE was definitely influenced by the MGM plans and most likely would NOT have developed these plans had MGM stayed, for example, on the other side of Michigan.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3833
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread is the embodiment of why I left this intelligence forsaken forum.

Have fun with Dumbfuckistanyes and DannycakesQuayleinDC.
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 364
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes it is annoying reading some of these posts!
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 4353
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man, everyone including myself has been cranky today. Must be that damn full moon.
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 365
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The full Moon looks great tonight over Lake Saint Clair!
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Ffdfd
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Username: Ffdfd

Post Number: 73
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Take things a little personally, don't ya? And I wonder why I left wonderful, friendly folks like you to hang out with East Coast Snobs. Ironic, ain't it? I just can't imagine why kids from Michigan leave for other places when everyone in Detroit is just so damn POSITIVE all the time.



Here's a plan. Post on a web site in a faraway city, stir up shit whenever possible, attack every plan the city has, consistently claim there is no foresight, cop a condescending attitude toward anyone with real knowledge of the local scene, state everything with the utmost authority based on the delusion that you can never be wrong, be the absolutely most unlikeable person imaginable ... then, after all that, claim the people in that faraway city have the attitude problem for calling you out on your miserableness. Great plan.

Is it really such a mystery why people aren't friendlier and more positive toward you?
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Supergay
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Username: Supergay

Post Number: 47
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 1:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also? Be a closeted homosexual.

Nothing wrong with that, except the closeted part.

*smooches*
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Downtown_dave
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Username: Downtown_dave

Post Number: 125
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The sale of DTE property west of Third to MGM made it possible for DTE to carry out a number of improvements to its remaining property. A "campus" plan that included the closing of streets had been proposed well before the MGM sale, and proceeds from the sale made possible the improvements now being made.

My own feeling is that DTE is at the "edge" of the urban downtown. We're not in the CBD, and the green space is an appropriate addition to this part of the city. It will provide a nice transition to the more residential Corktown area and add greenery to Grand River.

DTE Skylofts? That's a new one on me...
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 913
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 8:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"My own feeling is that DTE is at the "edge" of the urban downtown. We're not in the CBD, and the green space is an appropriate addition to this part of the city. It will provide a nice transition to the more residential Corktown area and add greenery to Grand River."

So you really don't think that DTE could have done any better? Since when is the DTE building not in the CBD? I think that you might be mistaken.
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Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11546
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 8:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Here's a plan. Post on a web site in a faraway city, stir up shit whenever possible, attack every plan the city has, consistently claim there is no foresight, cop a condescending attitude toward anyone with real knowledge of the local scene, state everything with the utmost authority based on the delusion that you can never be wrong, be the absolutely most unlikeable person imaginable ... then, after all that, claim the people in that faraway city have the attitude problem for calling you out on your miserableness. Great plan.

Is it really such a mystery why people aren't friendlier and more positive toward you?



Ffdfd,

You hit the nail on the head. The guy seems to have a serious case of Detroit envy in which he gets upset when there is any type of progress in Detroit at all. He then feels he must create faults in everything proposed, tell us why we Detroiters, along with our politicians, lack the vision to become a truly great city.

Does this guy really not comprehend why so many of us great his input with a friendly "fuck off" attitude?

From what I see skimming through the DTE campus plans, I think it's a great idea. With so many vacant lots in this city, why not use them to create green space and the type of atmosphere in which people like to work in? Why do people need to label such a plan as "suburban?" Can't the workers of Detroit enjoy the same luxuries such as parks and green space as those in the suburbs? It's not as if DTE is on the heart of downtown, it's on the very edge, and in an area in which few people aside from workers frequent anyways.

Lastly, I really don't give two shits how they would do it in D.C., this ain't D.C.. Nor should we care what some sellout who moved to the east coast thinks about any development plans that move this city forward.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5854
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 8:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That project is a sharp ideal to bring a enviromental feel to Downtown Detroit. Downtown Detroit need some nature to fulfill that concrete and asphalt pavements.
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Downtown_dave
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Username: Downtown_dave

Post Number: 126
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come take a look at where this campus is, Charlottepaul. It's a good 10 minute walk to the Campus Martius "heart" of downtown. There is nothing else near the DTE buildings other than the Leland Hotel - until MGM opens.

Nor is DTE a "developer" in the sense of a Hines or similar company. This is a utility company, and changes are being made to support its business infrastructure and enhance its workplace environment - as well as compliment the city. It's not a ground-breaking design (we don't need irresponsible "flamboyance"), but it is a functional and "green" one - as it should be.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 875
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1957: Knock down buildings, make parking lots. People happy.

2007: Knock down buildings, make grassy empty lots. People call them parks and smile.

Moral: Just keep knocking down buildings and your dreams will come true.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4235
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitnerd... your logic has one flaw.... THEY AIN'T KNOCKING DOWN ANY BUILDINGS!!! They're ONLY getting rid of dusty gravel parking lots.

So everyone stop trying to prove that Skulker's last post is right! :-)

(Message edited by Gistok on May 03, 2007)
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 876
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, Gistok, within the last few years they finally knocked down the last few buildings, the old brick house, two small flats and a rooming house. So there. (Bronx Cheer)
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Leland_palmer
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Username: Leland_palmer

Post Number: 306
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually those buildings that were knocked down were within the footprint of the MGM.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4236
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, but that was "NOT" DTE Energy that did that!

It was MGM Grand that regrettably knocked them down to build their permanent casino on the property that they purchased from DTE (although I cannot say whether Fiona's Tea House and the other properties were owned by DTE, or some other parties).

I wished that they would have moved those historic buildings over to Corktown, but alas, they didn't.
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 271
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"The sale of DTE property west of Third to MGM made it possible for DTE to carry out a number of improvements to its remaining property. A "campus" plan that included the closing of streets had been proposed well before the MGM sale, and proceeds from the sale made possible the improvements now being made."

This quote shows how a city can hit 'singles and doubles' and come out on top.

MGM's development actions made it possible for DTE to do certain things with their remaining property.

Soon, I predict, Ilitch will announce his plans.

Then we'll see development/beautification headed eastward joining new development (hockey arena)headed westward.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4238
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emu_steve... I question that statement (I know it's not yours). It sort of implies that DTE couldn't have made these new improvements until they sold MGM their property, and now can afford to do so.

They could have afforded to make these changes all along... after all they're not hurting like the automakers. But now with a "glamorous" neighbor, they can take the cash they got for the land sale and apply it to improving their own campus. I'm sure that they made many millions more on the other land, than what they are spending here.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 878
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the point remains the same. All we're talking about is filling in space with, uh, NOTHING. And getting rid of the delicate tissue of streets that makes cities into inviting pedestrian environments. (Gee, why the hell did that whole neighborhood have NEW CURBS before it was demolished?) Go ahead. Keep superblocking. Keep building "campuses" and fortified, gated office complexes like the Fed on Forest. Keep getting rid of the honeycomb of streets and alleys. Keep building more parking structures, getting more "investment" and gradually turning the city into a suburban office park.

But don't scratch your heads a few decades later when your "city" is not a city at all, and your daughters and sons leave the state for "city life." Enjoy all the "investment." Meanwhile, DTE will laugh all the way to the bank.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9042
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

But don't scratch your heads a few decades later when your "city" is not a city at all, and your daughters and sons leave the state for "city life."



That's happening now.
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Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 879
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is the kind of stuff that accelerates it. The idea that people still want to live in 1958: Bedroom community, drive on freeway into city, work at corporate campus, etc.

But, what do I know? Right? For all I know they're going to fill the green space in with office buildings, lofts, houses, everything. You know. Just like they did over at Crain's Brewery Park? remember, at first it looked like a big waste to have all that land devoted to lawn. But, as land values went up, they were able to fill it in with vibrant community-building housing and shops.

Oh, that's right. That didn't happen.

Oh well. Let's just push ahead with that anything-is-better-than-nothin g attitude. I'm sure that approach will eventually strike pay dirt. Keep on digging, metro Detroit. China is just a spadeful of earth away.
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Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 272
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"They could have afforded to make these changes all along... after all they're not hurting like the automakers. But now with a "glamorous" neighbor, they can take the cash they got for the land sale and apply it to improving their own campus. I'm sure that they made many millions more on the other land, than what they are spending here. "

The point I'm making has little to do with money (even though it is discussed I think in a mostly tangent way).

What I'm getting at, is that DTE says, "Our new neighbor (MGM) just developed 22 acres next to us. What can or should we do to our campus to be a good neighbor and also beautify our campus?"

I'm talking more synergy here.

Kind of like one's neighbor McMansions his house you think maybe you should do something to your property to beautify the neighborhood.

I see a win-win for MGM and DTE.

MGM has a better 'neighborhood' and DTE's campus looks better because of the MGM and what DTE did themselves.
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Downtown_dave
Member
Username: Downtown_dave

Post Number: 128
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no plan to "fill the green space in with office buildings, lofts, houses, everything" - and there wasn't much sense keeping the "delicate tissue of streets" when the property owner owns both sides of the street and traffic ingress and egress there could better be designed for people working in and visiting DTE.

This isn't Detroit of 1958 either.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 938
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 8:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"when the property owner owns both sides of the street..."

Not as easy as you might think. If you own each side of the street, you still don't own the street. Remember the fiasco Detroit Mercy had to go through to close off Florence to vehicle traffic? Nothing quite like taking an urban street grid and turning it into one where you have to drive 1/2 mile to go an 1/8 of a mile.
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Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 882
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It all comes down to what your priorities are. Ask Detroit historians and they'll tell you that a major problem was that the city was always changed to accomodate the desires of the powerful. But the places that really have staying power in the U.S. are the places that were built by people, for people. You know: cities.

Look at the history: Drop the Woodward plan, industry grabs the waterfront, Oakman Boulevard gets rammed through for development, parks are sliced, neighborhoods plowed under, whole transportation systems yanked away in the name of progress, etc., etc., ad absurdum. No wonder people keep streaming out of Detroit.

Anyway, I don't think I'm gonna change anyone's mind here, but it's always fun to pound the lectern like this.

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