 
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4469
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 2:41 am: |    |
Several of the buildings in the immediate Harmonie Park area have recently been purchased by the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation (DEGC), after imminent foreclosure. So in a sense, the landlord to several of these properties is the city itself.
So there will likely be some RFP's put out there for any Africantown initiatives.
Since the State Theatre is changing names to the Filmore... at some point if they ever wanted to... Music Hall could one day have a name change to the Paradise Theatre (which is what Orchestra Hall was called in the 40's and 50's).
Of course such an undertaking would require the consent of the group that owns Music Hall. Not really a necessary undertaking, but it could always be an option, since many African-American performers have performed at Music Hall over the years.
By the way when built in 1928, it was called the Wilson Theatre, and was renamed Music Hall in 1945 during the symphony years years of occupation. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2236
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 3:06 am: | |
This focus on making Harmonie Park an African-themed business area reminds me of an "Off the Leash" cartoon. In the cartoon two gunslingers who were rattlesnakes were standing in the street ready to dual. The caption read, "Everybody was tense and nervous until they realized that nothing was going to happen." The truth is nothing is going to change in Harmonie Park except for a few street signs that might say Paradise Valley District or Africantown.
As far as I'm concerned, there are already a number of businesses in Harmonie Park that are either black-owned or cater to a black clientele. They are: the Rhino, Lola's, Hamilton Anderson & Associates(architectural firm), Grand Central Station nightclub(formerly Centre Street Pub), Spectacles, RAGS, City Warehouse, Lot 1240(formerly the Hub Bar), Evolution nightclub, Burt's on Broadway, Henry the Hatter, barber shop next to Henry the Hatter, The Broadway, J.L Stone, Hot Sam's, City Slicker Shoes, Classic Menswear, and Serman's. With all of these already present, where are all of these proposed African-themed businesses going to go?
The fact that the city is trying again to manufacture a "themed" area is a waste of taxpayers money. If black-business owners want to get together and say that they want to create an African-themed business district, then that's fine with me because it would not only be organic but authentic. That's the only route to go that makes good sense.
BTW, we already have Whitetown. You'll find it where ever you see a Wal-Mart, Sears, Chili's, T.G.I.Fridays, Hooters, Starbucks, or a Banana Republic.
(Message edited by royce on June 05, 2007)
(Message edited by royce on June 05, 2007) |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 969
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 3:33 am: | |
“Wow. Some of you are proving that any constructive criticism to anything black associated is automatically presumed racially motivated.”
If you are referring to me. No, not hardly. Criticism is one thing and I welcome it if it is constructive. Dialogue never hurts. What I wont stand for is some asshole from out of town coming on to a Detroit message board and calling all of its citizens shiftless and violent, and then implying he would have “no problem” passing over our fair city because to him it is no longer “white” and “safe and clean.” That is not constructive criticism, that is someone degrading black people, citizens of the city of Detroit, and Detroit itself. So I think my hostility is founded, besides its just the internet.
But I agree a big Anchorman style battle royal between city and suburb resident would be funny
(Message edited by mayor_sekou on June 05, 2007) |
Dialh4hipster
Member
Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 2077
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 6:00 am: | |
"Ever wonder how the area would have been had it not been touched because the city father's wanted to 'disrupt white business as little as possible'?"
Not to be an asshole, but I suspect it would probably be urban prairie like most of the rest of the eastside now. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5989
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 6:38 am: | |
Mayor_sekou,
Most of the folks in this thread are not NOT RACIST! When they saw that Africantown is going to be built on the once foundation of the Detroit's Germantown neighborhood by using city money. They will be outraged, so as me and all the other small ethnic communities in Detroit's ghettohoods. Re-building a black community by using city money is UNFAIR! and its also UNFAIR for the city CLOWNSIL not to put in their tax dollars to revitalize other small but growing ethnic communities in Detroit's ghettohoods.
If I want a see Africantown being built in Detroit I want to see it in these requirements:
1. Without using city tax money.
2. I want to see Pan-African cultured businesses not Americanized black businesses.
3. I want to see city dollars poured in to help other ethnic communities in Detroit's ghettohoods.
If I don't see those requirements. Then Africantown has got to go and I'm going to need some protesters both Detroit and the suburbs to help me shut it down for good. |
Themax
Member
Username: Themax
Post Number: 683
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 8:09 am: | |
I'd be happy for anything that gets Detroit on the upward road again. Anderson complained about city redtape which is certainly a problem in many if not most cities. Someone in New York started a business that helps other businesses get through the redtape. Maybe Detroit needs the same thing. On the other hand, if Anderson did just want to acquire land to sell it off to other developers, maybe no one at City Hall was interested in helping him through the redtape. How hard is it to start up a business in Detroit?
And considering half of my own roots: how about a Canuck town? Bring on the muskrat! |
Masterblaster
Member
Username: Masterblaster
Post Number: 39
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 8:53 am: | |
perfectgentleman,
the decline of the American Automobile industry has led to the decline of the metro suburbs. When the auto industry was still thriving in the 1960's and 1970's, the city was declining, but the 'burbs were booming. But now that the American auto industry has really declined, NOW the suburbs are in decline.
If the auto industry had not declined so much, then the suburbs would not be declining now.
Please don't claim the city's decline as a most significant factor in the suburbs' decline. It may play a little role, but the auto industry decline/lack of jobs has a lot more to do with your decline. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 901
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
"Unfortunately the failure of the city has finally brought down the entire metro area. So I sit out here in the burbs in a house that is depreciating in value by the day while the taxes go higher. A sad state of affairs indeed. "
This might be one of the funniest statements that I have ever read on this forum. Some people will blame the city for a cloudy day. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:34 am: | |
The decline of Detroit IS a major reason that new businesses do not locate in the greater metro area to offset the losses in the auto industry. In a place like Chicago for example, proximity to the city is seen as a plus, not so here. Sorry to burst your bubble on that. |
Yvette248
Member
Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 548
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:42 am: | |
Quote: Despite some controversy from critics. A proposed new black community will be built in Harmonie Park and former Germantown community.
I hate to nitpick, but this is not a "black community". It is an ethnic business district - just like Mexicantown and Greektown. Anyone who has a problem with this just has a problem. If it's not "racist" to have a Germantown, its not racist to have an Africantown either. |
Mpow
Member
Username: Mpow
Post Number: 255
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:05 am: | |
What would be the best kind of stores to open in the district? What is African American themes in retail and entertainment? I have three words Jazz Jazz Jazz. It would be so cool if Detroit could have a Jazz capitol of the world there. I would love to see Techno music record stores, a Planet E maybe. Soul food too would be great, maybe Steve's could open up a eatery. If done right this could be the coolest district in the States, the most important thing is to make it cool, fresh and hip. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4471
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:35 am: | |
Yes Perfectgentlemen, and Detroit (of course!) is also to blame for not getting the suburbs to agree to President Ford's $600 million in Mass Transit money.
There's enough blame PG to go around. Suburbanites scream and moan about the price of water (cuz it's Detroit owned), but don't complain about the doubling of home heating natural gas prices, which is about 8 times the price of the water they're paying for.
As a suburbanite (living in St. Clair Shores)... I have seen more than my fair share of suburbanites who spend way too much time watching the 5PM local news (all bad about Detroit), and then bragging that they haven't been downtown in 30 years.
And then they're getting worried that maybe they haven't move out far enough because the blacks are now living out as far as Sterling Heights.
So yes do keep blaming it all on the city for your paranoia. And now you can add the fact that the Michigan economy is in the tank to the problems in Detroit.
Isn't it great that Detroit is there to blame for all the mistakes in the region and state, even the fragmentation known as urban sprawl. Hell we can even blame the plight of the big 3 auto companies on Detroit also!
How conveeeeeenient! |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 258
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:37 am: | |
ok finally the kkk is off this topic. jazz jazz , Ela Fitzgeral jazz joint, billy holiday blues cafe, motown cafe, majic johnson theater |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 903
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
"In a place like Chicago for example, proximity to the city is seen as a plus, not so here."
Eh, I live in NYC so you're really preaching to the choir. The difference inbetween places like NYC and Chicago is that they appreciate their cities whereas Metro Detroit tends to shun it's city. That's why your property values suck. |
Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior
Post Number: 3197
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
In the 21st century there will many adjustments that the psyche of America will come to grips with. In the 20th century, it was Black Political power.
In the 21st century, it will be Black Economic Power.
Black business owners will, where conditions avail themselves, establish firms of various kinds. This will generate some places like Harmonie Park, others will become large corporations like Symantec, and still other will be home based businesses that are the mom and pop shops of today.
People who get hung up on the race deal, will either miss out on economic opportunities or will not contribute to the American mosaic of free enterprise.
If you dont like the services of an African Town- dont patronize, If you like it, then by all means. please do.
A central fact is this concept can only help Detroit. If it fails, then let it because the owners of the firms have not been efficient in the market place- and not becasue our latent xenopobic sentiments seek to destroy the opportunity of Black owners of the means of production.
Decendants of Africa will continue to comprise higher percentages of the middle middle, upper middle and lower upper classes in the United States, and indeed, other parts of the world.
The sooner we become comfortable with this notion, the sooner we will all make more money. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 12:18 pm: | |
Gistok -
I never scream about water prices as I have never used city water in the 25 years I have been out here. I have no paranoia about anything, the facts speak for themselves. The issues Detroit is facing are not imagined, they are real.
I stated that the decline of the area is related to the failures of the big 3 but Detroit was going downhill long before that. And, unlike other areas around the country, we were unable to attract new investment to offset the losses in the auto industry and the situation in Detroit is a factor.
There is no dispute about any of this, it is not as if I enjoy the situation, I would love it if the city and the region would recover for the good of all of us. |
Exmotowner
Member
Username: Exmotowner
Post Number: 290
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 1:28 pm: | |
I dont have a problem with this, but I do think this will further polarize the races in the metro area, and Detroit metro as we all know doesn't need any further help in that department. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 837
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
Milwaukee's recent meltdown in this thread reminds me of that video on ESPN yesterday of that minor league manager who got tossed from the game and proceeded to lose it for about ten minutes. He told that umpire what he really thought of him. In the course of the whole thing, he threw his cap, kicked all kinds of dirt, covered up home plate and traced a new one, and threw rosin bag grenades. His players I'm sure wondered who was this guy in the manager's uniform. Thanks Milwaukee.
Also, thanks to Classico for some much needed moderation and reflection.
As for the development proposal, a lot of questions sure do arise. First of all, the city has shown time and again that it is incapable of forming a coherent communications message on this issue. What exactly is the goal? More black-owned businesses? A celebration of black Detroiters' history? Promotion of African American culture? Promotion of African culture? Is it open ended economic development or is the development centered around some kind of theme? To proceed with any kind of announcement and not include answers to such obvious questions is poor planning to say the least. It's likely that if you sought answers from each DDA member, each City Councilperson, and the mayor's office, you'd get about a dozen different explanations. That doesn't bode well for the success of the initiative.
My belief is that any government sponsored (non-organic) "theme"-based development has no chance to be economically successful. It will not attract enough everyday residents unless the "theme" satisfies some kind of everyday need, and Detroit does not have enough tourists to support such ventures.
3rdworld did have some interesting ideas though. |
Classico
Member
Username: Classico
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
Yvette248,
Eh, there's one big thing your missing from that.
That area was dubbed "Germantown" because it has roots and history stemming from that name in that area. Obviously not these days, but still. That area as far as my knowledge, has no direct ties to "African" cultures. I don't see your connect at all. Those two other areas you mentioned have roots to that moniker, and one is actually a enclave/community were people live and work of mostly said ethnicity. Big difference. "AfricanTown" is just being plopped by local government from space.
I will say though that I feel Harmonie Park would excel like some others have suggested if it goes Jazz and promotes other black strongholds in Americas culture. Like Danny said and Americanized African-American vibe is what I'm automatically feeling. If thats not the case then this could work.
Mayor, Na, it was in general, no one really in particular. Other than Milwaukee ;) |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4475
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 3:19 pm: | |
Thanks Classico, and welcome to the forum!
And another thing, while we're talking Germans (as an ethnic German)... we want Greektown back! Germans built it (including St. Mary's)... and we want it back!  |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 699
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 4:15 pm: | |
Gistok: You can have it. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 260
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 4:40 pm: | |
Tribute to the legacy of Paradise Valley and the heritage of what created the vibe and feel of what the district offered in its prime.
This is about black history. Why are people so afraid to expand on that and not associate something black, african, african american,Afro-American or whatever we are called this decade. to non productive activity, crime or poverty.
I see this district becoming a bright, vibrant section of downtown that will highlight the colors, history, rhythm, soul of not just black people, but the city of Detroit and some of the good that we currently represent. Many black people that currently still live in the city and have no plans on leaving understand the crutial need for this district. This will help people better understand how drastically disassociated the world is to our legacy and history, all colors of the human rainbow. Dare i say this is something a person unaffected by the harshness of having your history snatched from you, couldnt understand till your able to see this district for its greatness and nothin negative what so ever. We need a district in a section of the city thats not on the danger list. Talk about finding a great way to showcase a legendary history of music, dance, food, fashion, and culture. |
Jimg
Member
Username: Jimg
Post Number: 864
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 4:52 pm: | |
Paradise Valley was, as Zulu pointed out, the one piece of Detroit's history that black folks owned and/or controlled. And great things came from that area. Celebrating it is long overdue. May it become a stunning success. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5990
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 12:44 am: | |
Zulu Warrior,
You quote that Black business owners will, where conditions avail themselves, establish firms of various kinds. This will generate some places like Harmonie Park, others will become large corporations like Symantec, and still other will be home based businesses that are the mom and pop shops of today.
People who get hung up on the race deal, will either miss out on economic opportunities or will not contribute to the American mosaic of free enterprise.
If you dont like the services of an African Town- dont patronize, If you like it, then by all means. please do.
A central fact is this concept can only help Detroit. If it fails, then let it because the owners of the firms have not been efficient in the market place- and not becasue our latent xenopobic sentiments seek to destroy the opportunity of Black owners of the means of production.
Decendents of Africa will continue to comprise higher percentages of the middle middle, upper middle and lower upper classes in the United States, and indeed, other parts of the world.
The sooner we become comfortable with this notion, the sooner we will all make more money.
I SAY: Most people including me don't like this Africantown proposal being built on once Germantown community of Harmonie Park because the city may put in their tax dollars to assist the project. Blacks and Jews have thrive their businesses in Paradise Valley a long time ago because of togetherness, unity and family establishment just like other ethnic communities in all U.S. cities.
Did Mr. Pangborn propose a Asian Village on Atwater St. out of city money? problably not.
Did the Mexicans, Latinos, Greeks Chaldeans and Irish built their communities in Detroit ghettohoods by using city money? NO, and not that much in years. Black folks may have the whole piece of the pie of Detroit doesn't mean that they can have more POWER over the neighborhoods and slum clear any folks that want.
I want to see Africantown being built WITHOUT using city tax money. The city council should stay out of it. Africantown should be built in one the selected neglected black Detroit ghettohoods and I want to see Africantown shops filled with Pan-African culture even through there is a shop owned by a WHITE person from South Africa, Congo, Mozambique, Zimbabwe or some Arabs from Libya, Eqypt, Morroco etc... and NOT Americanized African American "BLACKS ONLY" shops filled with HIP HOP attire. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5603
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 12:52 am: | |
What are you talking about? Developments in just about every one of those communities has been subsidized with city money in the form of tax breaks, incentives, and other forms. The only difference I see here is that we're seeing the city subsidize the start of a new district. Double-standard, anyone?
And there you go with the 'blacks only' crap, again? Really, I know you march to the beat of your own drum, but I know that even you're competent enough to realize how ridiculous you sound every time you say that.
(Message edited by lmichigan on June 06, 2007) |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5992
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 6:41 am: | |
Lmichigan,
Subsidized with city money? Where is your proof to back your claim? So far your comments remains NON-SEQUITUR until you provide evidence. Africantown is discrimination when city money is put in place, However Africantown is not discrimination when city money is not in place, but instead by the use of Pan-African entreprenuers. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 261
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 7:41 am: | |
This is a tribute to paradise valley, THIS IS NOT AFRICAN TOWN. this district needs an deserves some type of help from the city to get it going, why because its so damn easy to say african merchants could/should get financing from its own pockets but look at the foundation of our existing, thriving merchant district, oh wait, one doesnt exist. We are the only group of people why somehow dont have any type of industry either within our community of selling products outside of our community. Arabs have all the liquor stores and gas stations in the city. We dont even have a real share in the beauty supply industry, yet millions are comming out of black peoples pockets and practically none is going back in. This is a serious problem in the black community so if the city wanna do a lil bit to help curb a historical trend that can potentailly ruin our merchant power than lets do it. We need help rebuilding our distribution of a product. extreem racism was the reason paradise valley was bulldozed and sent to the history books. this is 2007, we need help dammit. And not is some Fu&* up section of the hood. Im surprised some of you dont suggest rebuilding black bottom deep in the hood. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7866
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:07 am: | |
Downtown remix, your post seems to whine and portrays blacks as stupid.
You say: "...african merchants could/should get financing from its own pockets but look at the foundation of our existing, thriving merchant district, oh wait, one doesnt exist. We are the only group of people why somehow dont have any type of industry either within our community..."
After dominating Detroit's population and politics for 4 decades, you imply that the only route to success is with government assistance?
Look at the businesses that have been successful in Detroit, with Detroiters. Motown is a good example. The keys: leadership, new ideas, education, competition. I don't see "govt assistance" anywhere in the equation except for taxpayer (you) funding of schools.
BTW, starting with the COD, the government works for you, not vice versa.
Finally, when you refer to "some Fu&* up section of the hood" I would ask: with a vastly predominant African American population and city government, whose fault is that? Clean it up/tear it down/stop whining. |
Spirit2028
Member
Username: Spirit2028
Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 11:34 am: | |
To me the name "Paradise Valley" is magical. As I understand, it was the happening place to be. Black Bottom was the collective neighborhood but the valley was the business and fun part that was centered around Hastings street. I never saw the original but it's hard for me to imagine capturing even a portion of the energy back then in such a small place like Harmonie Park. Looking at the map in the news article they have 6 sites designated for redevelopment. 4 sites are existing buildings and 2 are set up to be parking lots. How exciting ! This location has no real room to grow. You need a street like W. Vernor Hwy. in SW. Detroit to really allow for expansion and maximum potential. So what would be a good street in Detroit to center the new Paradise Valley on ? My suggestion (for what it's worth) would be Chene St. from north of Gratiot to I-94. Granted the area looks like it's been ravaged by war and any number of natural disasters but you have to start somewhere so the logical thing to do is start from the bottom up. Land prices should be reasonable if not dirt cheap. Instill a motto for the valley that would simply state - fans of all races are welcome to Detroit or "Welcome Race Fans" if you prefer. If you want to do business in Detroit, anyone will have access to any special deals or tax incentives. Hopefully entrepreneurs like the owner of the Raven Lounge can light a fire so that the residents of the city realize there are ways to empower yourself and prosper at the same time. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 263
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 11:47 am: | |
Ok lets go back to 1967. The Governor was a racist. The mayor was a racist. The city burned to a crisp and recieved no money to put out the fires and re build the city, except to demolish the one area that the majority of the citizens could call a florishing district. There was no FEMA to help the people. Black people were denied monies to start businessess based on the color of their skin, not just in the 60s but the 70s 80s 90s. We have been shited on for decades, ever watch GOOD TIMES? THE JEFFERSONS? ALL IN THE FAMILY? the racism portrayed on public tv was not hidden. So this empowerment zone is needed just so we can move on
1880
Coleman A Young was mayor. Did some good, but ran more white people, corporated dollars out of the city. He even called Ronald Regan a prune face. The city, suburbs were more divided than iran/iraq. We became the most segragated metropolitan area in the nation at a time when CRACK came in and ripped the city even more. Still no help.
As a kid in the 80's i was told not to cross 8 mile, because white people hated us. Coleman was on CNN NEWS saying all kinda crazy stuff many nights, furthur alienating the city from corporate dollars, white people continue to flee and the country was still racist. many new wanna-be downtowns were built because Detroit didnt even exist to the rest of Michigan. Southfield, Troy, Novi, was suppose to be the new Detroit East Detroit changed thier name to East Point.
I say all this to profile how Detroit's decline directly reflects a racist society that has kept the city down even till today. Im not asking for a mule and some land to produce a farm. just some recognition that the horrors of the past is behind us |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4423
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:16 pm: | |
quote:Ok lets go back to 1967. The Governor was a racist. The mayor was a racist.
Suggesting that George Romney and Jerry Cavanagh were racists is an interesting piece of historical revision. Romney was a Rockfeller Republican and strong supporter of the civil rights legislation of the 1960's. Cavanagh was the first Detroit Mayor elected because of strong support from the black community. He was an ally and friend of both Jack and Bobby Kennedy. He marched with Martin Luther King during the 1963 civil rights march on Woodward Avenue. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 264
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:16 pm: | |
I wanna see white, black ,mexican, and arabs walkin through paradise valley and see a piece of our heritage. Kids doing an african dance in the park, Harpos blues club harping out live jazz an blues. Steves soul food, African Imporiam, great imported items from all over africa |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 265
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
strong supported of the civil rights legislation. WTF. Digging through politican swaying of voted does not qualify as someone supportive of a black city. |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4424
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
I would like to answer remix but his post is barely readable and I have no idea what he said. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7876
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:29 pm: | |
Downtown, are you aware that Detroit was the "model city" for Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" welfare plan signed into law in 1964? 3 years later the model city was in smoking ruins, some of which still remain 40 years later.
You say: "Detroit's decline directly reflects a racist society that has kept the city down even till today"
Can you blame folks for simply wanting to feel safe? Who wants to live next to riots, burning, looting, drugs, murder, prostitution etc? Folks move their families away if such occurs in Detroit, the suburbs or anyplace else, it is not unique to the COD.
As for small business, owners want to cater to folks who are interesting in paying for their products and locate where as many of them are concentrated as possible. Further, if you got burned out of the neighborhood, you just might be discouraged enough to want to consider a new location and/or clientele.
"racist society" can be either side of the fence - and when either side acts accordingly/flees/stays it is a personal choice. I think it is great that you want to see "Kids doing an african dance in the park, Harpos blues club harping out live jazz an blues. Steves soul food, African Imporiam, great imported items from all over africa" but whether folks will venture in to enjoy/pay/partake remember that you're competing with a host of other attractions and folks have a choice.
It is a long road to success after 1967 and I wish Detroit well. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9331
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
quote:Downtown, are you aware that Detroit was the "model city" for Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" welfare plan signed into law in 1964?
How can that be when so many people have cheered on about how Detroit was perfect until 1967 or until Coleman got elected. If LBJ was using Detroit as a model in 1964 maybe the perfect times that you old timers rave about weren't so perfect. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 383
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
I for one will not be investing in Africantown. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 999
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:43 pm: | |
You know, you could argue that for all the millions of dollars already invested in Harmonie Park, there have been a lot of negative outcomes. Who benefited from the redesign? The planning firm did. The architects did. But the people who had lived there moved shortly after, didn't they? And it has remained a sleepy corner of downtown. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:45 pm: | |
And the name is good, but the promise of something as cool as Paradise Valley is cruel. You'll never get anything like Paradise Valley again. Pair o' dice alley is more like it. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 266
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:32 pm: | |
KARL where do you live
Jt1 where do you live
michigan how bout u?
the seperatist and negative attitudes unfortunatly still rule our metro area. lack of experience on how a society can bulldozz a people will keep some of you bullish on the experiences of Detroit blacks, specifically in the 60s 70s and 80s. stop reading so called facts and ask somebodies grandmother about the black experience and we will see who is ignorant. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9341
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
Detroit - why? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:43 pm: | |
Talkin' t'me? |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 267
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:45 pm: | |
my bad jt1,mis read your last post |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9345
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:46 pm: | |
Remix - To group me with the other two on this is wrong if that is your intent. Read some of my earlier posts.
My post 9331 to address the fact that so many people claim the city was near perfect until 1967 or Coleman came along. I was pointing out that certainly wasn't the case if LBJ was using Detroit as a model for social programs. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 268
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:59 pm: | |
mis-read your last post Jt1. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 837
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 3:01 pm: | |
Johnson wasn't using Detroit as a "model" for other cities. Model Cities was a pseudonym for what America's most-devastated-by-riot cities could become with huge Federal investments.
The Model Cities Program was huge. Nothing like it since - but it did not work in Detroit, if the current status of Detroit is measured against the predicted progress. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5604
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 4:42 pm: | |
Danny, you continue to use the phrase you learned at school, non sequitur, incorrectly. I'd tell you to stop being an unapologetic fool, but I know you won't. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2242
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:16 pm: | |
One thing that many of you, who didn't grow up in Detroit, don't understand is that blacks in this city didn't have access to business opportunities to open businesses before the 1967 riot. Because of that, many blacks worked in the auto industry or the government, such as the postal service. These jobs helped blacks put food on the table for their families, but as you will see, it did not help the black community in the long run.
Many of the businesses looted and destroyed in the '67 riot were not black owned. In the aftermath, blacks, because of the lack of business opportunities prior to the riot, were not in position to take over the businesses that were destroyed.
In a real sense, because of discrimination in banking regarding giving blacks loans to open businesses, blacks had little experience running businesses in their neighborhoods. Where they had experience running businesses was on Hastings Street. However, Hastings was bulldozed a decade or so before the riot. Asking blacks to assume the responsibility of running businesses in their neighborhoods after the riot was equivalent to asking children to take care of the house while the parents(white business owners) were on an extended vacation. The endeavor was bound to fail.
In the meantime, older blacks were continuing to work in the auto industry and the government(this time blacks were getting jobs due to the Great Society programs President Johnson had created). Because of their parents hard work, children of these blacks had opportunities to go to college. Many went into teaching, social work, medicine, and business.
Jobs were plentiful for these college educated blacks in Detroit in the late '60s and early '70s. Blacks with business degrees were given opportunities to work in predominately white Fortune 500 companies due in part to affirmative action programs of the early 1970s. They went into the corporate world instead of coming back to the black community to open up businesses. Why not do this? The corporate pay was great and the companies gave out great benefits. There was also a prestige factor.
Now, while all of this was going on, a number of Chaldeans and Arab Americans bought out the white businesses that were left in the black neighborhoods after the riot. They ran small mom and pop party stores and grocery stores. They also bought up the full-service gas stations and converted them into self-serve gas stations that eventually started selling party store items. The rest is what you see today in Detroit, Chaldean and Arab Americans owning party stores, grocery stores, and gas stations.
Now, my review of history may not cover everything, but this is a much fairer representation of what happened to Detroit after the '67 riot than what many naive forumers are spewing out as fact in this thread. Regarding history, nothing is as cut and dry as some would have you believe. Are you listening, Milwaukee?
(Message edited by royce on June 06, 2007)
(Message edited by royce on June 06, 2007) |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5608
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:28 pm: | |
That was kind of the pointed I was getting at earlier with black ownership in the city. It was until relatively recently that black citizens even had the opportunity to own in their communities and outside of them. This includes everything from housing to commercial business. The illegal housing convenants that prevented blacks from owning property in most areas of the city didn't begin to be abolished until the 50's.
I've tried in vain, but I can't seem to find how much of Detroit's commercial businesses are currently owned by Detroiters, especially in the neighborhoods. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4208
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:34 pm: | |
Royce to those of us that know (or are honestly listening who do not), we hear it and it makes perfect sense...
However, you cannot change the mind of a bigot because he/she is going to believe what they want to believe in spite of facts...
...plain and simple. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5996
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:42 pm: | |
Downtown_remix,
The new Paradise Valley is the new propose Africantown to be built on old Germantown area by using city money to promote Pan-African "BLACKS ONLY" businesses. That's unjust and discrimination. Blacks may have Detroit, but that don't have the power to use city money to rebuild black communities. The city money must be shared to the rest the ethnic folks who worked hard to the bone to Detroit a better place to live. A 100 years from now Black folks won't be dominant role in Detroit anymore. When most of them will be someplace else they may be replaced by some alien race from another planet. And if this new Alien race lay claim to Detroit, they may use the city's tax money to build "Alientown". That too would be discrimination. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 991
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:46 pm: | |
Danny, did you read the article?
"Jackson said the new project is open to any developer of any race, though he said it would have an African-American theme similar to Mexicantown or Greektown.
"Our goal is to be a destination spot for people to visit," Jackson said. "But this is going to be run as a business." "
I mean come on man you posted it. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5997
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:53 pm: | |
Jackson,
Africantown must be built by you ideals ONLY with PAN-AFRICAN black businesses in a Detroit Black ghettohood filled with desolate storefronts and not leaning on the city council for you help and support. If you did build Africantown with city tax money, I'll take this proposal to the ACLU and file a class action case against you just to make sure that Africantown will NOT be built or be destroyed!
Jackson, I'm a black male, Street Prophet #174 Danny, prime assistant and servant to The Ghettoman and I'll stop your plan at any cost even if takes forever with thousands of people on my side.
(Message edited by danny on June 06, 2007) |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5998
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:57 pm: | |
Mayor_sekou,
As long as this new Paradise Valley/ Africantown proposal doesn't use city money, or to built in Harmonie Park and used of PAN-AFRICAN businesses. Then my protest will be over. But until then I'm keeping a eye on both and city council and Jackson.
(Message edited by danny on June 06, 2007) |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5610
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:02 pm: | |
I'd already posted that piece of the article for him, Sekou. He's mentally incapable or unwilling (or a little bit of both) of grasping that. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5999
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:08 pm: | |
Lmichigan,
Do you support Africantown by using city tax money, or being built upon once historic white communities? Or do you support Africantown without city council support, being built upon deslate Detroit black ghettohoods and supported by PAN-AFRICAN business?
You decide. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 994
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
Noted, Lmich. And BTW, I just realized not too long ago that the L is for Lansing, lol. Maybe I am slow too.
Personally I wouldn't care. New development is new development all of it is good. The city wastes more money on BS you never here about, so me personally as a tax payer would not mind supporting this project that if successful could benefit us in many ways.
Danny, I am reallllly afraid to ask, but what is a Street Prophet and who is the Ghettoman? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6001
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:33 pm: | |
Mayor_sekou,
The Ghettoman a white male dark blond spiky haired Clay Aiken look-a-like guy in his late 20s. He's around somewhere in the ghettos of Detroit. He calls me the other Street Prophets to a secret meetings somewhere in a Detroit ghettohoods. Sometimes a local Detroit home a black family, white family, Arab family or a Mexican/ Hispanic family any time any hour. |
Kathinozarks
Member
Username: Kathinozarks
Post Number: 564
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:53 pm: | |
Karl Said: "Can you blame folks for simply wanting to feel safe? Who wants to live next to riots, burning, looting, drugs, murder, prostitution etc? Folks move their families away if such occurs in Detroit, the suburbs or anyplace else, it is not unique to the COD."
-----------------
This post spoke volumes to me, and I believe most of you also. Who of you can say that you don't want the same thing? |
Yvette248
Member
Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 574
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:56 pm: | |
Has anyone heard any more about the "Asiantown" being built in the RenCen? It was supposed to open this summer I thought. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5611
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 11:26 pm: | |
The summer is just upon us.
Danny, I fully support the idea this new African/African-American-theme d district around Harmonie Park. It's about time to say the very least.
And, I don't care where it is built. Subsequent waves of migration and immigration have changed districts and displaced the original ethnic 'themes' from the beginning of civilization.
As for public funding, I don't mind for one minute, as almost every new development in dinvested cities are subsidized, in some way, with public monies. Detroit's largely black population supports countless projects geared towards largely white suburbanites on a near weekly basis. At the end of the day this isn't about race, rather partially subsidizing a project like a declined city would partially subsidize any other development.
Lastly, I did not support the first 'Africantown vision', as it was blatantly and unapologeticall unconstitutional and discriminatory. This one is no such thing, so you can stop your ridiculously false rhetoric, and painting this project as any different from the countless projects that have, are, and will continue to go up around Detroit.
You're no prophet; if you were, you'd be able to see past your own nose, something you've shown yourself incapble of doing, Mr. Magoo. I've long grown tired of your predictable, distracting, useless, and unhelpful shtick. It's not cute, it's not funny, and it's not clever. I'd be much more tolerant if you weren't purposefully trying to misreprent issues and projects time and time again with stupid talking points and buzz-words.
(Message edited by lmichigan on June 06, 2007) |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7881
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:42 am: | |
Royce said: "One thing that many of you, who didn't grow up in Detroit, don't understand is that blacks in this city didn't have access to business opportunities to open businesses before the 1967 riot."
So Motown Records was owned by whites?
And my favorite clothing store - Louis The Hatter - white-owned!
Who woulda thunk? |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5612
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:57 am: | |
Excellent, you can pick out a handful of sizeable, prominent businesses. You get a gold star. Companies like Motown, through stunning displays of perseverance of the time when everything was working against them, and through a lot of luck, were (and still are, to a great extent) exceptions not the rule, and even you know that.
(Message edited by lmichigan on June 07, 2007) |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7884
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 1:19 am: | |
So Lmichigan, both businesses that I cited started out sizeable and prominent?
And please don't tell me they started before 1967..... |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5613
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 1:54 am: | |
Huh? Royce's point is a valid one, and that was that blacks were largely (illegally) shut out of the business community until relatively recently. How that relates to this current proposal is debatable, but I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 270
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
Thought i was gonna get railroaded off of this topic yesterday, but i think someones kicking some knowledge. Trying to spit real truths to racist Michiganders from that scary era is a waste of time. We need this district to happen. I would proudly support this area and bring people to experience something positive in the city. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6005
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 11:05 am: | |
Karl you quote that so Motown Records was owned by whites?
NO! Gordy took a $500.00 loan from his parents so he could start his own Motown/Tamla Recording Studio a 2 family flat home on W. Grand Blvd. So he was a TRUE Black owner of Motown Records. He didn't bother the white folks who are for the Detroit city council at the time or going to white owned neighborhood bank. Today is record company is a success. Even through he sold it a British company a long time ago. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 844
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
There should be no problem with the DDA or DEGC creating a program to cultivate African American owned businesses. There should also be no problem with the city creating some kind of historical tribute to Paradise Valley. To combine the two into a theme-related economic development project, and do it in Harmonie Park is folly. It will be money down the drain.
Sure, the DEGC has wasted plenty of money over the years, but that doesn't make it right for this project. The project shouldn't get a pass because it is aimed at an oppressed minority. If managed well, Harmonie Park could become part of a larger 24/7 community in the Necklace District. Scarce DEGC resources should be used to promote more residential development in this area, and not used to speculate on any kind or touristy theme-based small retail. Retail, restaurants or services catering to the needs of tax-paying residents is what is needed in the Necklace District. Where is the empirical evidence that people, black or white, will descend on Harmonie Park from all around the metro area to patronize whatever it is relating to this theme that will be subsidized and started? Facilitate the residential and the retail will follow. Let the retailers and restauranteurs with input from their prospective patrons figure out what, if any, theme should be incorporated. Thriving, healthy urban neighborhoods evolve organically. It's basic Jane Jacobs stuff. Harmonie Park is primed. It just needs the households. Hell, it would be better to take the money and add it to whatever they're going to schtup Mr. Ilitch with to build something on the Madison Lenox site. Propping up speculative retail simply won't work.
Just my opinion though. I could be wrong. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 272
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
Lets re-create as much of the excitement, music, dance , and culture of Paradise valley |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 273
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 1:16 pm: | |
Im glad the developers are not relying on the opinions of a few who dont think a district like such should be in the up-and-coming downtown Detroit. "Put that shit somewhere in the hood" "let them load up on rib shacks an beauty supply stores"
Hog wash. Know the history of the black community not only in Detroit, but all over the countryfor the past 400 years
Understanding the barriers that kept us from creating our own stuff, speaking our own language, shit in slave days we werent even allowed to read the bible. During the 40s 50s 60s, we couldnt own shit, except for in Paradise valley, then that was bulldozzed. We were drinking from the colored only fountain only 40 years ago. We deserve this, so bitch all you want but this must be done. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2245
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 6:39 pm: | |
In my first post I mentioned the number of businesses in Harmonie Park that cater to blacks. A number of these businesses are nightclubs. I know that Lola's, The Rhino, Lot 1210, and Bert's on Broadway all have live entertainment that focuses on jazz. I failed to mention that Music Hall has the "Jazz Cafe." So, in a small way, the spirit of Paradise Valley continues in Harmonie Park with these entertainment venues.
(Message edited by royce on June 07, 2007) |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 349
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 7:37 pm: | |
The whole black white race issue is such an extremely touchy emotional subject for many it is almost a no win situation. My best friends are black; I date interracially; I live in a mixed neighborhood; white and colored shouldn't mix! these are all innapropriate statements.
I watched a brief segment on the news a while back in which Chaldean, Hispanic and white business owners were protesting Africantown at a city council meeting-their internalized fears and anxieties of Black Americans was brought to the surface. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 918
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
Barf! |
321brian
Member
Username: 321brian
Post Number: 367
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:51 pm: | |
If there is one thing that can bring a bunch of races (Chaldean, Hispanic and white business owners) together it is their dislike for another race(Black Americans).
Ahhhhhhh, the melting pot. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5617
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 11:15 pm: | |
Terryh,
IMO, they had the most valid of reasons for protesting the original incarnation of the Africantown proposal, as it was going to use public monies for a proposal that wasn't opened to all interested persons. This new incarnation is opened to anyone that wants to invest and develop. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6006
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:11 am: | |
Lmichigan,
If you truly support this city sponsored black community at a once white community that would be a racial mistake waiting to happen. This new Paradise Valley can be built WITHOUT city tax money and HIP HOP black businesses but instead PAN AFRICAN businesses. Further of all I don't know about life so you have on ideal what my life is like until you have seen me in my shoes. What I have told you that I'm a STREET PROPHET to the Ghettoman fighting everyday corruption by using God's power.
Downtown_remix,
Black-folks may out of the physical slavery but they are not out of the mental slavery yet. Over the past 400 years fewer freed blacks in Colonial America had created their communities with shops all over without using city money and begging the white man.
Over five thousand years, most black tribes in Africa had created their businesses, built cities and expanded trade routes from the sahels of Mali's salt trade to Abyssinia from Great Zimbabwe to The Nubian Lands from the lands of Cushites to Great civilization of Egypt they did it without begging the white man. I want Black businesses in America to start by BLACK POWER, SOUL POWER, LOVE POWER and PEACE POWER. " UJAMAA, HARAMBEE" meaning unity and togetherness. Not by using city tax money as a reparation grants. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7895
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:21 am: | |
Downtown remix said: "We were drinking from the colored only fountain only 40 years ago."
Absolutely, positively not, and certainly not anywhere in the Detroit metro area or anywhere in Michigan. Stop lighting fires that were out long before 40 years ago.
Not a nice try. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 275
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:36 am: | |
ok mr karl. When did the white only water fountains discontinue? When were black no longer forced to the back of the bus? When was the last black person washed down the street with fire holes? |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7896
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:41 am: | |
I won't play that silly game, Downtown. You tell me when and where there were "colored only" drinking fountains anywhere in Detroit. When was the last "back of the bus" ride in the Detroit metro area? It was far longer than 40 years ago. and don't even talk to me about firehoses, though they would have been appropriate to use on anyone/any color during the riots 40 years ago - perhaps it would have saved some lives as well as some of the COD.
So bring it on - pictures, dates, locations - within the last 40 years. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 276
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:46 am: | |
1967--40 years ago. nuff said |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7898
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:55 am: | |
It wasn't going on in 1967.
No more clueless posts, please. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 277
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 1:15 am: | |
when the black population exploded with angre and rage in 1967 and the city burned to a crisp, what da hell was happening, Devils night? Why are you trying to downplay that horrible time in the city? I was able to hear it from the horses mouth, my grandparents. Grandma was beat down an grandpa was too. Police brutality and cruel treatment was wide spread. Now if you recall things being alot kinder and gentler than please educate me and everyone else. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 278
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 1:35 am: | |
Just left the new paradise valley district tonight. Live jazz an blues in the park. Well dressed young Blacks out eating and drinking and listening to the sounds. Several other restaurants were on and popping. Anything added to this would only enhance the areas flavor. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7900
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 1:54 am: | |
But that wasn't what we were talking about, Downtown. You mentioned drinking fountains and bus rides in 1967. Proof, please.
So your grandparents were looting/rioting 40 years ago in Detroit? |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5618
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 2:40 am: | |
Danny,
I wished I could say say that you lost it with that last post, but you never had it to begin with. I see you've been typing without your helmet, again. Poor thing. |
Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing
Post Number: 116
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 8:37 am: | |
quote;
During the 40s 50s 60s, we couldnt own shit, except for in Paradise valley
the above statement is the furthest from the truth. Prior to affirmative action black people owned their own businesses and thrived.
There were many areas where blacks set up their homes, businesses and lived peacefully and made their American dream come true.
Affirmative action was the financial and social downfall of the black population and I know many black people that feel the same way. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 848
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 9:10 am: | |
quote:Affirmative action was the financial and social downfall of the black population and I know many black people that feel the same way. Oh please. Financial downfall? SOCIAL downfall? Black folks in this country are certainly confronting some financial and social challenges, but it's laughable to think that these problems were caused by those evil and so grossly unfair affirmative programs. Sheesh. |
Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing
Post Number: 118
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 9:21 am: | |
believe what you want, but many of us believe it was. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 932
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
"Prior to affirmative action black people owned their own businesses and thrived. "
As sharecroppers? Slaves? Barber shop owners? This makes no sense at all. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 933
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
"I won't play that silly game, Downtown. You tell me when and where there were "colored only" drinking fountains anywhere in Detroit. When was the last "back of the bus" ride in the Detroit metro area? It was far longer than 40 years ago. and don't even talk to me about firehoses, though they would have been appropriate to use on anyone/any color during the riots 40 years ago - perhaps it would have saved some lives as well as some of the COD. "
How about this... the original deed to the house that I grew up in had a clause that it was not to be sold to a black buyer. |
Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing
Post Number: 119
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 10:47 am: | |
quote;
As sharecroppers? Slaves? Barber shop owners? This makes no sense at all.
it's quite obvious that a few on this forum lack a proper sense of 'real history'.
the library is on woodward
(Message edited by dexterpointing on June 08, 2007) |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6008
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 10:55 am: | |
I think that Downtown_remix message about 'colored only' drinking fountains is NON-SEQUITUR. Colored only drinking fountains are almost no existant in most northern cities during the 40s, 50s and 60s and Detroit is one of them. Visible segregation by means of law wasn't that popular in Detroit, but in the south. However psychological segregation did exist in all northern cities including Detroit. You may not see that much WHITES ONLY, NO COLOREDS and COLORED ONLY signs in every public places in Detroit. But white folks can tell blacks to stay out or use the other drinking fountain somewhere. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7901
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
Iheartthed - lots of wild things are in lots of deed restriction clauses, many no longer enforceable.
But we're talking about 1967, Michigan, busses, drinking fountains, and race restrictions that were still being used/enforced.
Anyone? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6010
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 11:01 am: | |
Yes Karl,
Race restrictions were enforced in Detroit, but not to extent that visible segregation was law of the land. |
Det_onnation_365
Member
Username: Det_onnation_365
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
I hate to burst the "Caucasian Town" bubble, but several of these towns already exist and are doing quite well. Canton,Farmington Hills, Livonia, Novi, Warren, and Wayandotte just to name a few.
It bothers me that anyone to could have the gall to refer to the plan as reverse racism. Not in a metropolitan area that has pride itself division, segregation, and maintaining disproportionate wealth gaps. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 920
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
Really, from a broader marketing focus, the city would be foolish not to draw on both the German and African heritage for the area.
Additionally, the Horticulturalists in the crowd would be more easily wooed if we avoided the total detachment from the "Park" theme that the area has held for the last century or so.
I recommend we call it "The Black Forest". |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 417
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
lOl IRISH
just to pour fuel on the fire here-
I've seen quite a few businesses in Detroit identified as black owned. I've seen none identified as Asian/White/Hispanic. Are there any in Detroit identified as such?
O/T- I watched "Do the Right Thing" again last night. Good movie. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7907
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Too funny, Irish.
The Germans will happily care for the forest part - trees & flowers, they love that stuff, and the African Americans can handle the black part.
Perhaps everyone could wear liederhosen (sp?) |
Kslice
Member
Username: Kslice
Post Number: 56
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Ha, liederhosen.
Certain towns in a city are usually not set up by developers. It just so happens a bunch of people of the same ethnicity move in. No one said, Hey lets make a part of the city especially for greeks! The greeks did it without being told.
Also these are usually minority area's. So white town would make a lot more sense(not saying I want white town). At least in Detroit. |
Douglasm
Member
Username: Douglasm
Post Number: 857
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 7:49 pm: | |
From a practical side, the major problem I have with the whole idea is can a thing like this be "developed", or does it have to spring up organically to be truely viable? In general, planned theme developments have been poorly received, where Chinatowns, International Districts, Pioneer Squares, Mexitowns and the like have grown up on their own without a lot of city or developer help. My big fear is that something like what is being talked about would end up like Plum Street in the end..... |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 280
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 8:08 am: | |
Organically, this area is already the downtown hub to black culture. The shops, restaurants, and residents already make up a small population of what to become. Take a look at the area during the day.
'Specticles' has been there mixing sounds and importing urban gear outta new york, yet has always pushed local products.
The loft dwellers above specticles represents this "organic" residential population of cultured kids with Dreadlocks and painting brushes. the Rino gots the jazz an blues, as well as black owned "Lolas" in hte park.
Do a walk through on a saturday evening. You will see much has already begun in this district and with a lil marketing, this area can offer that much more. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4209
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 2:21 pm: | |
Downtown they are not trying to hear that....they would prefer that this starts 'organically' in the hood... |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7916
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:23 pm: | |
Yeah, it's always "Downtown's" fault - if only they would just send money and shut up.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't "Downtown" made up of nearly 100% African Americans? |
Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl
Post Number: 723
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:27 pm: | |
quote:The City of Detroit is moving forward with plans to create a black business district in downtown's Harmonie Park but without the architect of the original, controversial proposal dubbed African Town.
Screw that idea. I think they should just give all the non-black folk one year to get the hell out of town and just change all the "Detroit City Limits" signs to read:
Welcome to Detroit-Home of African Town USA |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4212
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:32 pm: | |
Yep Karl, GM, Greektown, the CBD, midtown, riverfront, all that shyt is all Black...
...dumbass |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 281
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:35 pm: | |
Areas adjacent to Middle class districts getting makeovers.
Boston Edison ,North end
Indian Village, east english village
University District, 7 mile n livernois
south south rosedale park, grand river,greenfield
master plan. Secure the fort. Make them feel secure with mini security teams patroling these neighborhoods through strong neighborhood organizations. add retail to main streets
This district falls into this master plan. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6016
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 5:14 pm: | |
Karl,
Downtown Detroit's black population is 77% in the eastside and 65% in the west side.
It's white population is Downtown Detroit is 20% in the east side and 27% in the west side.
Those numbers don't look good, but however more white folks are coming back to Detroit not to stay permanently but as empty nesters first and they will decided whether they move on after they get married, expecting a first child or seeking another job opportunity. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 282
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 7:41 am: | |
Why do i work so hard to convince the KKK that white skirts are out this season? Downtown was so eclectric last night.Tigers won,so i went to a cuban bar, a irish pub and a jazz bar jammed packed with every race in the rainbow. Greeektown was jammed packed, complete wit a saxaphone player singing an playing to the air. It will be amazing to see a 30 floor hotel suddenly pop up among such a vibrant district. Awesome. Its a new day in detroit. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 283
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 8:30 am: | |
damn ignorance is bliss "isnt downtown about 100% african american" WTF maybe downtown UTICA. KARL, seems like metro Detroit is not for you. I hear theres some great European towns in the U.P. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6017
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 8:55 am: | |
Downtown_remix,
Karl didn't take time to read the data before he writting the facts. Downtown Detroit is NOT 100% black. There are some white-folks living and working there. If Downtown Detroit is 100% black, then there would be no sign of white-folks living or working there. I know that you go Downtown Detroit sometimes and you will see lots of white folks working and playing around. Go check out GREEKTOWN. Lots of white owned businesses there. Now be careful about making demographics. If you look the data and statistics then you are just making the NON-SEQUITUR fallacy comment.
(Message edited by danny on June 10, 2007) |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 921
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 9:26 am: | |
Along the lines of the Black Forest theme, we would need a bakery that specializes in German Dark Chocolate cake. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 429
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 9:44 am: | |
LOL Irish, very good.
Look, I just don't think this is going to work That is why I said I am not going to invest in it. It seems that whenever cities, not just detroit, try to develop a themed area like this it just doesn't work out. Too many hands in the pot, too many constituents pulling in different directions, etc. No racism intended, just taking a look from business perspective.
Why does this proposal anger so many people? I think I have some inkling. If I wanted to open a german bakery in Greek town would I be allowed? Yes. If I wanted to open an African Book store in Mexicantown would I be allowed? Yes. Those businesses might fail, but that would be on me as a business person. If I want to open A greek restaurant in Africantown, will I be allowed? That is not so clear, and that , I think, may be the issue that upsets so many people about this proposal.
When the Irish came here they couldn't get jobs until they started getting city jobs, like the police. They seem to have done alright. The Italians couldn't get work, they their made own jobs. Vietnamese, people hated them when they came in the 70s and 80s, They seem to be doing alright. Mexicans, they are broke when they get here but they move on up.
So let's be realistic. Every opportunity in the entire city of Detroit is open and available to the black population. If they don't take advantage of it, then that is on them, not on the suburbs, not on the federal government, not on the corporations.
Want the tax money the suburbs get from their residents? Then make the city attractive to those residents so that they choose to move to the CofD. Want Corporate development? Do what NYC and Chicago, and LA do, give tax breaks, underwrite loans, make companies want to be in the CofD for business reasons.
This proposal seems to me to be a failure in the making.
(Message edited by michigan on June 10, 2007) |
Raggedclaws
Member
Username: Raggedclaws
Post Number: 36
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 9:46 am: | |
To Downtown: You're kidding, right ? You visited 3 bars, Greektown ! (you realize G-town is ONE block long) and saw a guy playing the sax and its a new day in Detroit ?
Oy...you need to get out more. Try cruising Michigan Ave, Fort, Warren, or any other main drag that use to thrive. Small pockets of success do not mean its a new day in Detroit. Just ask its struggling residents.
Duhr... |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 284
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:00 am: | |
YOUR OUT OF TOUCH. Small pockets of success does mean a new Detroit, for a city that has seen nothing successful since the THE 40S AND 50S. i CAN WALK MILES AND SEE THIS LEVEL OF MOVEMENT. from the edge of the river, through laffeyette park, eastern market, mid town, wayne state, woodbridge, corktown, casino land, capital park, campus mart park, Billions of redevelopment dollars are pouring in so either get with the program here or take yo ass to 23 mile road. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7925
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:11 am: | |
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
I took the reference to "Downtown" as being the administration of the COD, not downtowners/residents/shoppers /workers.
If I'm not mistaken, the administration of the COD is nearly 100% African American. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 285
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:13 am: | |
GENTRIFICATION. the poor are moving with their kids down south in huge numbers. Atlanta,alabama.
more middle an lower class still moving to far out suburbs, turning once all white areas to the new frontier. Canton, westland, romulus, Brownstown, sterling hights, warren, southfield oak park, east point, while detroit continues to empty out,(clearing out, out pricing) based on job opportunities and neighborhood walmarts in far suburbs, high gas prices to get to these jobs, and better general assistants in the burbs. bringing our population to around 700,000 by 2010.
Not all bad, when the mission is to have less poor and more people (with money)living in dense areas surrounding downtown detroit, 10 year plan is in action, and most dumb asses wont see it till its too late. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 849
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
Good answer d-remix in post #284.
You also made a good point earlier. quote:Organically, this area is already the downtown hub to black culture. The shops, restaurants, and residents already make up a small population of what to become. Take a look at the area during the day. So then why attach some kind of hyped up theme or name to it? Government should facilitate its master planning with the usual government services (police, fire, lights, zoning, garbage) and occasionally when needed, tax or other financial incentives. Theme planning won't work. That cool scene that you described from the other night will never occur in the planned and sanitized "Paradise Valley" district.
Far too many folks in this thread who are "angry" about this idea or plan are assholes because what they're mostly pissed off about is black folks giving government money to other black folks. Too bad for them. That shouldn't be a problem for anybody. But everybody should have a problem with a plan that won't work. That kind of folly should make people angry.
(Message edited by swingline on June 10, 2007) |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 430
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:40 am: | |
Swingline is right on on all points, said them much clearer than I did. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 286
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:49 am: | |
Ok so some of you say this wont work. What about asian village. theres not a stitch of asians living on this empty riverfront land, nor a stick of yaw barking and crying. Will this plan fail as well? Will it not fail because its not black village, or african village? What would have happened if Paradise valley was propose on the river like asian village? yaw would probably be protesting in front of the manoogian mansion. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 850
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 11:05 am: | |
You're not even close on your comparison, d-remix. Asian Village is a one-building privately developed project. The city had no involvement in its conception. I don't know the details, but there were some DDA funds involved on some level. That's no problem. That's how it should be done.
Try again. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 851
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 11:09 am: | |
And another thing. Asian Village is NOT some kind of district or intended to be the start of some kind of stupid "Asian Town" area. For all those posters who keep calling it Asian Town and making this assumption, get it straight. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 287
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 11:16 am: | |
thats what you think. GM has an idea along with the city to get their employees asian, white, black; to live, work, play in the same area, instead of driving to madison hights everyday. the condo development being built right in front of asian village will reflect this marketing. Call it what you wanna, i call it like i see em. If you dont like monies being allocated to pay tribute to Detroits history, then too bad, get over it |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 288
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 11:39 am: | |
Just pretend we had a horrible hurricane or a battle with canada. bombs were dropped all over the city, leaving miles of history and memories in the dust. As we rebuild detroit, some of our tastics will seem desperate an drastic, but we've been through desperate times, requiring desperate measures to pull it back together.no other city in america can say they went through anything simular to us. unfortunatly negative energy is harder to get rid of. then Gentrification steps in |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 431
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
D-remix: Swing is right on again, beating me to the punch. Asian Village is a private development. Period.
Next, according to the article above Africantown is not intended to pay tribute to Detroit's history, black or white. It is very much of the present and intended to 1)develop black owned businesses and 2)promote AFRICAN themed restaurants, museums, restaurants.
I am not denying there is latent white against black racism in some of the complaints against this project. There definitely is. But don't kid yourself that there is no black against white racism in the proposal itself and the support of it in the city. Do you think that you could "WALK MILES AND SEE THIS LEVEL OF MOVEMENT" in the city of Detroit if you were white? Until the answer is "Yes" for all races the C of D will remain mired in its sad past, and silly projects like this will just continue to squander the little public money the city does have. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 852
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 1:01 pm: | |
D-mix, why can't you get past the honoring Detroit's black history angle? The issue should be about how to effectively implement economic development and create a tax base for Detroit, and not about paying respect to black Detroiters. (And gentrification has nothing to do with this Paradise Valley scheme.)
Detroit already spends plenty of money on cultural things and honoring history. DIA, Historical Museum, DPL, etc. And certainly you are aware that the biggest single cultural organization recipient of city funds is the MAAH. Black History is not ignored in this city. Maybe more could be done, but not at the expense of shackling a promising CBD neighborhood with an unviable development theme.
Yes, the city is promoting the area just east of the Ren Cen as a mixed use area. But there is no kind of ethnic or cultural theme to these efforts. Harmonie Park, which is better poised at this point to progress into a 24/7 neighborhood, should get the same treatment. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7927
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:14 pm: | |
Downtown said: "Just pretend we had a horrible hurricane or a battle with canada. bombs were dropped all over the city, leaving miles of history and memories in the dust"
We don't have to pretend, it happened 40 years ago this summer but it turned out to be more of an internal problem.
Swingline said: "Far too many folks in this thread who are "angry" about this idea or plan are assholes because what they're mostly pissed off about is black folks giving government money to other black folks."
It goes deeper than that, Swingline. Many folks across the USA are former Detroiters who are angry and bitter about being forced to flee a wonderful, thriving, vibrant city to avoid black on white crime, black on black crime, declining schools, etc. The Coleman Young years focused on first changing the makeup of the COD's entire administrative wing from mixed to black, while generally creating an attitude that if it was white, don't let the door hit you in the butt.
That feeling is compounded when one views the present landscape and realizes that finally, blacks in Detroit have exactly what they wished for, and as has been verbalized quite clearly on this thread, they don't know what to do with it (without some sort of handout)
If Downtown is correct, the exodus will continue down to 700,000 by 2010, and then? Perhaps Detroit will want to rename itself "Phoenix" as it rises from the ashes.
Frankly, I say give 'em the money. The results will be similar to the millions dumped into Detroit as the "Model City" under Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" in 1964, and we all know what great results that had 3 years later. Until Detroiters with troubled homes are willing to take Cosby's message to heart, Detroit is in for more of the same.
For the record, I hope I'm wrong. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4230
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
Yep internal as in the establishment and the majority kept putting minorities into hellish living conditions and denying them equal opportunities while they lived in squalor. Add to the fact the they lived their lives under the oppressive thumb of a majority white police department that had the black community living in a police state all equals up the 'disturbance' that took place 40 years ago this summer beginning as an 'internal' problem...
...jack ass. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 7929
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:43 pm: | |
Cosby would disagree, and so would millions of successful African Americans.
But why let facts get in the way of a lively discussion? |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 4231
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 4:04 pm: | |
I agree Karl why do you? |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 346
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 4:50 pm: | |
Judging from the quantity of posts and varied viewpoints in this thread, there is little doubt as to how concerning this issue is. A former Detroiter, I live comfortably out-of-state now. I simply want the city to develop in positive directions, primarily for current residents, secondarily for visitors (like me).
I enjoy reading the thoughtful comments here at DYes as a welcome alternative to the local media (i.e. Free Press, Detroit News, clickondetroit). Hooray for DYes and particularly the people who have posted to this thread. |