  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1041 Registered: 06-2004 |
Commuter rail plan to Detroit gets a push Amtrak from Ann Arbor January 22, 2007 BY KATHLEEN GRAY FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070122/NEW S06/701220388&imw=Y | ||
Cushkid Member Username: Cushkid Post Number: 59 Registered: 08-2005 |
$6 to get a ride from ann arbor to detroit. I think that is a little steep. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2342 Registered: 02-2005 |
So I guess that meeting DID happen in December and it went well. Curiously, the writer didn't attribute her source saying that line might happen by the end of the year, and that it would be a three-year plan. I'm pretty sure this will be happening. Cushkid, it's currently $11-14 to ride from Ann Arbor to Detroit on the Amtrak line. I'd glady pay half as much, plus it will be a much more convenient service (as opposed to a couple times per day). The current price beats the price of gas, sometimes. (Message edited by mackinaw on January 22, 2007) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1305 Registered: 11-2003 |
The cost and fare structure ($1.50 from one stop to the next) is comparable to what the METRA trains in Chicago charge. If someone is riding from AA to Detroit to say go downtown they are going to have savings in parking alone. This plan seems very doable. The thing they do need to make it reality is also extend up through Oakland County. | ||
Cushkid Member Username: Cushkid Post Number: 60 Registered: 08-2005 |
I guess I'm just used to paying less due to the fact that I was riding well established mass transit. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1898 Registered: 11-2004 |
It's cheaper than hell, especially if you factor in gas and parking (let alone mileage/wear and tear on your vehicle). Shit, you can't even get a cab from the Ren Cen to Grand Circus Park for $6. Honestly, if $6 is steep to you then you probably shouldn't be traveling to Ann Arbor anyway. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1025 Registered: 11-2004 |
It's approximately 45 miles between Detroit and Ann Arbor. The cost for a round trip in a car that gets 20 mpg at $2 per gallon is $9. It jumps up to $13.50 at $3 per gallon. Tack on another $5 to $10 (or more if you get a traffic or parking ticket) in parking costs. The real deal is it will cost $3 to get to Metro Airport from either Ann Arbor or Detroit. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2006 |
E_Hemingway, since most cars going this route would take the expressway, would 20 MPG be a realistic fuel economy? I would expect the average to be much higher. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1026 Registered: 11-2004 |
Mid to high 20s is the norm for most sedans. However, you have to factor in all of the SUVs and trucks out there that get teens in fuel economy. Not to mention a car's fuel economy normally goes down the older it gets and most people go as fast as possible (lowering their fuel economy even more) so it's probably safe to say most people aren't getting the optimum fuel economy that they think they are. I choose 20 mpg because it was a nice round number and it seemed in the middle of the two extremes. | ||
Spitty Member Username: Spitty Post Number: 520 Registered: 07-2004 |
ok, so how come no one is mentioning that the Detroit Amtrak station is in the New Center area? How are you going to get there? Are you going to drive and leave your car parked on Milwaukee? Take a cab or a bus? Why is the cost of getting to New Center being glossed over in all of these equations? Just trying to see both sides of the argument here and to be realistic. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2006 |
Good Question Spitty. Does anybody know how much it costs to get from say, Pontiac to Detroit on the Amtrak? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1027 Registered: 11-2004 |
They are talking about improving bus service, or even starting a specific bus line, up and down Woodward so it would coordinate with the train. Those details are still being worked out. As far as parking goes, I do remember a parking garage next to the station on Milwaukee and there are plans to build a new state of te art train station there. It's part of the Techtown plan I believe. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1028 Registered: 11-2004 |
The Amtrak web site says the fare between Pontiac and Detroit is $11. Under this proposal, it would cost $4.50 if they extended the line up to Pontiac and kept the $1.50 fare between stops. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2072 Registered: 10-2003 |
On occasion, I have to travel to Baltimore for work, or fly out of BWI Airport. In such cases, I usually take the commuter train from Washington Union Station. It costs $6 for the 30 mile trip to BWI, and $7 for the 40 mile trip to Baltimore. I'd say $6 between Ann Arbor and Detroit is *very* realistic and affordable. Let's not forget there will likely be other fare options like 10-ride tickets and monthly passes to decrease the costs for the regular rider. It would be even cheaper still if you can get transit benefits from your employer. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 725 Registered: 09-2005 |
In Philadelphia it costs $5.50 to take the train from the airport to the city (one-way). I would say the Detroit-DTW-AA proposed price is very reasonable. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 697 Registered: 10-2003 |
The key would be one shuttle bus that leaves from Grand Circus Park to arrive at New Center station 5 minutes prior to train departure. No delay then... and direct access to People Mover at GCP. $.50 shuttle bus or People mover token. The same shuttle is to arrive at Amtrak 5 minutes prior to train arrival. Keep it simple... no other stops... no extra cost.... and with only 2 stops, not a lot of excuses for the shuttle being off-schedule. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 313 Registered: 12-2006 |
Not to be the naysayer Bob, but it would be a bit harder to get a line into Oakland county. Since the line from Detroit to Pontiac is owned by CN and CN hates passenger travel on their rails, it could be a while before we see that one come to life. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 456 Registered: 07-2004 |
------ "$6 to get a ride from ann arbor to detroit. I think that is a little steep." ----- You think that is alot? Thats how commuter rail runs. I work for the commuter rail system here in Toronto, and some of our riders pay $250.00-$300.00 a month just to travel from their station to downtown Toronto. Commuter rail really does not save you money at all. Its an expensive way to commute. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1029 Registered: 11-2004 |
Not necessarily. SEMCOG is negotiating with Amtrak, which already operates passenger service on that line, to establish a commuter line. The precedent is there. It's really all about increasing the frequency of trips. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 726 Registered: 09-2005 |
CN hates commuter rail? I keep hearing this over and over again. Miketoronto, doesn't GO transit use CN lines for several commuter routes in the GTA? Does CN "hate" this? Is there a specific problem between CN and Detriot/Oakland County? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 314 Registered: 12-2006 |
I believe it is possible, but I'm basing this on what happened to Amtrak Illinois two months ago. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/ am2Copy/News_Release_Page&c=am 2Copy&cid=1093554068100 That was resolved, but if it happens again, it could be a bit before it comes off of the ground. Anyone know how many freights are run between Pontiac and Detroit daily? That would be a good indicator of whether it would happen or not. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1030 Registered: 11-2004 |
For the sake of argument, let's say someone commuted from Ann Arbor to New Center for their job. That would mean about 22 round trips a month and add in a couple more for entertainment and trips to Metro, so let's say 25 trips a month. Without any deals that comes $300. You could probably get a monthly pass that cost $250 or $275. The cost of gas alone on a vehicle that gets 20 mpg, which I think is a fair estimate considering the number of SUVs, trucks, older vehicles and the amount of congestion, at $2.50 per gallon is $281.25. That doesn't include parking, wear and tear on your vehicle, insurance and any possible accidents or tickets. I know that not everyone commutes from those two exact points, but this is in response to Miketoronto's comment about costs. If managed properly, this commuter rail line could save a significant amount of money for work, airport and entertainment commuters. However, there are still some big ifs in this equation, say its efficiency and cost of fares. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2343 Registered: 02-2005 |
Dunno about D-Pontiac but I do not think it is many. It is six per day from Detroit through A2 on Norfolk Southern, which is extremely low. I think this route will get a decent amount of use if it terminates in New Center. The Amtrak spokesman said that the negotiations are exploring a possible downtown station, using different tracks instead of taking that northerly jog to New Center after the NS tracks flow into SW Detroit. I don't give a crap if this gets extended to Pontiac. I think it is better to keep this focused at first. I can see a separate Pontiac-Royal Oak-Detroit commuter line at a later point, but I don't think that Pontiac to Detroit to Ann Arbor should happen on one train, they should be separate. If someone wants to go to Metro Airport or Ann Arbor from Royal Oak, they can just take two trains. Or perhaps a Woodward street car to New Center (which is not that much of a pipe dream). | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1031 Registered: 11-2004 |
In regards to the Woodward street car feasibility/possiblity. Getting Woodward on Tracks http://modeldmedia.com/feature s/wtransit77.aspx | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2074 Registered: 10-2003 |
And again, let's remind ourselves that the goal is not necessarily to get *everyone* off the highway and on the train, but to give people the *option* of not driving. I think that even 2000 passengers a day would make this line successful. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 700 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mackinaw, Good point about keeping it simple and focused. If you have one small success, that can be built upon. If they try to do too much at first... they could blow the whole deal. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 457 Registered: 07-2004 |
Commuter rail only saves you money if you have to pay for parking. Other then that commuter rails zone by distance fares really are like having another car payment each month. Upinottawa CN runs all commuter rail routes in Toronto except the Milton line, which is run by CP Rail. The problem with sharing tracks with other rail companies, is that commuter rail does not get priority. This can cause a large number of delays at times. If CN for example has a freight train that must get through, then the commuter train has to wait. The rail companies can also dictate when commuter trains can run, how many can run, etc. Its not the best situation at all. Best thing to do is build your own tracks. Look at the crap Toronto has been in, the last two weeks. Almost every commuter train arriving Toronto Union Station has been late in the morning rush hour due to CN RAIL. My train has been approx 15min late the last two weeks due to this. Anyway commuter rail is great. But its not going to be cheap. Commuter rail on average attracts above average wage riders. In Toronto the average commuter rail rider comes from families that make above average wages. Sure they will pay the fare, but I still think fares are to steep. Like some of my riders tell me. "Why should I leave the car at home if its going to cost me 300 bucks a month for train tickets?". And I ask the same question  | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 315 Registered: 12-2006 |
I would guess it wouldn't be that much higher than about 10 (15 at max and that's probably too high). I looked and couldn't find a number. NS would love to have more traffic on that line. That's why it would be feasible to have this one work. It wouldn't interfere. What we should do is base it off of Chicago's system. Anything north of the station goes to the north concourse. Anything south goes to the south concourse. That way, you wouldn't have trains blocking each other that are heading in opposite directions. As for a downtown station, too bad the Dequindre cut doesn't have tracks in it anymore. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 316 Registered: 12-2006 |
Mike, if you drive, where do you not have to pay for parking? And here, we don't have the problem of CN running 600 trains a day through our area. NS only runs 6 a day between A2 and Detroit. And since NS dispatching isn't as bad as others (Union Pacific), getting around on the rails wouldn't be a problem. (Message edited by SCS100 on January 22, 2007) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1032 Registered: 11-2004 |
The $300 car payment is true, but there is a lot more in costs to commuting, primarily gas. The cost of commuter rail could equal or lessen the amount paid in gas per month alone. Add in parking, insurance and wear and tear and there will definitely be cost savings. Not to mention the time saved reading, relaxing or working on a laptop on a train opposed to staring at bumper during that trip. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 317 Registered: 12-2006 |
Does anyone know when that discussion about transit, at the Guardian Building, is supposed to start? Now they are saying 7:15. Is it that or 6:30? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2075 Registered: 10-2003 |
^Not to mention that it might enable a household to get rid of an extra car if one person is taking the train to work. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 319 Registered: 12-2006 |
Combine that with streetcars and maybe that will make this a car free city. (Heck, not likely). | ||
Saabdriver1986 Member Username: Saabdriver1986 Post Number: 385 Registered: 04-2004 |
I have read this whole thread and I’m still not clear on one aspect of the project. Could someone explain how this “commuter line” differs from what AMTRAK currently offers with regards to their Detroit to Ann Arbor service for $11. If I understand correctly this new system would use existing tracks, cars, stations? Thanks for the clarification | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2006 |
$6 is only the cost if you're going all the way from the D to A-squared. If it's $3 to the airport, and if you can get to the Detroit or Dearborn stations on the bus (SMART or DDOT), then it would be economical and reasonably quick to take transit to the airport rather than paying to park there. I suspect the number of people riding the line its entire length would be a fraction of the total ridership. Also this is meant to be a decent-speed high-capacity link that will serve both local Ann Arbor - Ypsi commuters and Detroit - Dearborn commuters if they tweak the bus systems to make excellent connections. For a comparison, GO Transit charges $5.60 one way from Oakville to Toronto, and I don't think that's as far as Detroit to Ann Arbor. The trains are packed with people and the parking lot in Oakville has thousands of cars in it. Now, this could be less successful if the people involved don't think it through. There needs to be a place for people to park at some of the stations, since not everyone will ride a bus to the train. There also needs to be, as others have mentioned, a good, quick way to get downtown from the Detroit Amshack. If they do it well, it could point us in the right direction. I also think a second or connecting or through service to Pontiac (and dare I say Flint a couple times a day to meet the Lansing - Port Huron service?) would be a marvelous idea. Professor Scott | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1033 Registered: 11-2004 |
Saab: It's basically on the same track and uses the same stations. The main difference is the trains would run much more frequently and the fares would be basically cut in half. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 320 Registered: 12-2006 |
Saab, this corridor would use existing tracks and stations. However, it would also include the renovation of the Yipsi depot and a new station near Metro Airport. It would use Amtrak equipment, however it remains to be seen as to what type. (F40s or P42s for engines and possibly Superliners for cars, although not likely. I would guess Amfleet cars). | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2076 Registered: 10-2003 |
^and no cafe car. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 458 Registered: 07-2004 |
I don't want to rain on the parade and I know you guys don't agree with me on this. But I really think commuter rail is a waste at the moment. I think the first priority for Metro Detroit should be to ensure that the bus system is upgraded and that the residents who need transit the most(poor inner city Detroit residents) have access to transit that can get them to jobs. After we fix that issue, then commuter rail. But at the moment we have people who can't even get to a job in suburban Detroit by bus, and we are worried about getting people with cars into Detroit from Ann Arbor. That seems like a mix up of priorities to me. I think we are losing touch with what we need the transit system in Detroit to do at this moment. And that is get the people without cars to work. After we do that, then we move onto attracting the choice rider, etc. Priorites for Metro Detroit Transit. 1. Improve bus system so all residents can get to work anywhere in the Metro area on transit. 2. Focus on students and get them onto transit to get to university, colleges, and the mall. 3. Focus on car drivers and commuters and start building a total transit system that moves all types of people across Metro Detroit. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 728 Registered: 09-2005 |
Are there any feasible downtown locations for a commuter rail station (i.e. not New Center)? One of the advantages to Toronto's system is that Union Station is downtown and very close to the business district. Oh, and Toronto has a subway system. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2077 Registered: 10-2003 |
Miketoronto, I understand your point, but if you continue to treat the existing transit system as little more than a welfare system, then it will remain little more than a welfare system. Commuter rail doesn't preclude fixing DDOT or SMART. Both activities can be undertaken simultaneously. The onus is on the existing bus systems to get their act together, which don't need to "wait" for some monumental event to happen before they start doing so. Don't forget that should any rail system be developed in Detroit, bus routes will likely be rerouted to feed into the rail system, making transit more efficient for longer-distance travelers (i.e. city residents who work in the suburbs). | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 833 Registered: 04-2006 |
New Center is the only location where you can go E-W through the City. There are a couple of older locations that would work fine closer into the City itself, but none will cross, and both will be end of the line. - Joe Louis Station (in the JLA parking garage) - RenCen Station (a hard right at the end of Deq Cut will get you there). | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2006 |
MikeinToronto, I agree with what you are saying about the poor. However, money talks. The only way you are going to sell future mass transit expansion to the region is by showing the middle class in the suburbs the advantages of mass transit through commuter rail. Once they buy in, they will be more willing to support the huge financial costs of establishing a more comprehensive transit system that will connect people from all walks of life to the region in a better way than what they currently do. | ||
Rfban Member Username: Rfban Post Number: 30 Registered: 02-2004 |
E_hemingway, Good point with all of your numbers and such however, if I were commuting back and forth from A2 to Detroit I would find my greatest asset to be the extra 2 hours a day to relax or do whatever I feel.. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1035 Registered: 11-2004 |
There are not any tracks readily visible on my map. The closest existing track goes to the edge of Corktown. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2006 |
Ive always thought that it would make more sense to do a woodward line before a detroit-A2 rail line. If the A2 to detroit line goes down first i think it will fail. I mean people are going to take a train to downtown or new center then theyll have to get off of the train and find a bus schedule. Buses will have to be re scheduled to line up with train arrivals. I still think people would find light rail more reliable and most likely less confusing. So imagine a woodward light rail line goes in and then a heavy rail line (like metra) goes from a2 to detroit. riders get off the heavy rail and hop the light rail to downtown or royal oak for shopping. It seems to make the most sense for the two systems to work together. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 321 Registered: 12-2006 |
Well Mike, part of the bus system has been upgraded. DDOT now has fare boxes that don't require exact change. You can get a refund, in the form of bus credit. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 729 Registered: 09-2005 |
Mdoyle, I agree that the Woodward line is more important. However, the Detroit-DTW-AA line will be a lot cheaper to implement. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1867 Registered: 12-2003 |
Scs100, The website says 6:30: http://www.detroittransit.org/ It also asks for an rsvp. I'm sure they would love to have you. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1899 Registered: 11-2004 |
Seriously, the best part of this is the ability to take the train to the airport from downtown Detroit or Ann Arbor. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1037 Registered: 11-2004 |
Transit Riders United, a mass transit advocacy group, proposed what Mdoyle is talking about when the study started a few years ago. Check it out at http://www.detroittransit.org/oldsite/Ann%20Arbor%20Detroit.pdf (check out the map on page 6) The light rail option is off the table for now, but could easily come back if the commuter line is succesful. (Message edited by E_hemingway on January 22, 2007) | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2006 |
Thanks Jsmyers. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2199 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: DDOT and SMART bus schedules are available in the fiction section at most libraries. Why would anybody even need a schedule, considering the high frequency of buses on Woodward to/from downtown anyway? Just hop on the first one that comes. Sheesh! Why over-complicate a brain-dead simple task? (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 22, 2007) | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 323 Registered: 12-2006 |
Sorry about that Ottawa. That was based on what happened in Illinois. I forgot about Toronto's commuter system. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2006 |
I may just be speaking for myself here but I think there is a sort of inherent fear that some people have that theyll get on the wrong bus and some how end up in the middle of no where with no way of getting back. When rails are involved people might feel more confident in the transportation. They know where the rail goes and there are always going to be trams on the loop. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2344 Registered: 02-2005 |
Saabdriver, the big difference will be the greater frequency of departures. There are basically two trains per day that don't leave in the middle of the night right now. It is not that convenient, though I still try to use it between the two cities. Toronto, your 2nd priority seems to fit in well with this commuter rail proposal. This would be a high-speed link between Wayne State and UM and it would be awesome. There is a great demand among out of state UM students for transportation to metro airport; in addition, believe it or not, there is a demand to visit Detroit. Likewise, Wayne has international students and could use some more out of state students, and linking it to the airport would be great. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 326 Registered: 12-2006 |
That may happen sooner than you think. Amtrak has been trying to get the funding to buy the whole line from Detroit to Kalamazoo (they own Kalamazoo to Porter, and after that, it is nearly impossible to build passenger rails). They want to turn it into a high speed corridor (115 MPH+), they just need the funding. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2006 |
LY is exactly right. Woodward is one of the few places around here where you can just show up at a bus stop, and a bus comes in a reasonable amount of time. It would have been more optimal to run the trains right into downtown, but as many of you seem to know, no rail lines go into downtown Detroit anymore. So if trains go to New Center, as long as it's clear to a rider where to catch a bus (and that location isn't too far), getting to downtown should be reasonably uncomplicated. Hopefully there will be some kind of transfer mechanism. Mike, you're right about improving bus service, but without some kind of high speed mode like commuter rail or modern light rail, buses are too inefficient because of the size of the urbanized area. But I agree, at the same time, we need to improve and modernize the bus service. And Mdoyle is also right (I'm generous today; everybody's right) that a large segment of the public will ride rail vehicles but not buses, and so far as I can tell nobody's been able to pin down just why that is. Professor Scott | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2078 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Ride quality--trains don't hit potholes. Acceleration/deceleration characteristics--buses take a while to get going, making it painfully obvious what their limitations are. Trains accelerate a lot faster, especially if they're electrically powered. Speed--trains don't get stuck in traffic, and are often faster than driving on the Interstate. It's not too difficult. People are intuitively smart (if not otherwise) and will do what makes the most sense if given options. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1868 Registered: 12-2003 |
A couple of thoughts. While downtown is a big destination for commuters, there are many others nearby: *Henry Ford Hospital *State of Michigan offices *Wayne State *Detroit Medical Center *American Axle *Numerous smaller offices in New Center and Tech Town such as Albert Kahn and Associates. This is ignoring all of the cultural, entertainment, manufacturing, and distribution centers that are in the area. So while getting direct rail access downtown is a laudable goal, the greater accomplishment (and greater challenge) is to connect all of these establishments (and many smaller ones) together, to the regional transit system, and to the residential areas in Central Detroit. The existing combination of SMART and DDOT bus service on and around Woodward does a reasonable job of that now (as some have noted). Improvements are needed however. Long term, a LRT system could do a lot, especially if part of a larger system that reaches to other destinations, especially ones that can never be reached by commuter rail (Grosse Point Park for example). Expansion of the people mover in a way that might help accomplish these goals has also been discussed. In the short term, a limited stop bus might be best. This should be done as an accompanying transit improvement to the transit system, not only as a shuttle to take train riders to their final destination. The advantages would be shorter headways for the most dense and transit supportive areas of the city, infrequent stops to maximize speed, and possibly a smaller fare to match with the shorter trips. A simple one route system might have stops near: Ren Cen Campus Martius Grand Circus Park DMC (~Alexandrine) WSU/CCS (~Kirby) Tech Town (~Ford) New Center Station (Baltimore) New Center (2nd/Grand Blvd) Henry Ford Hospital I estimate that 6 buses running in a constant loop could provide 5 minute headways for the route that would have the longest one-way trip of 15 minutes. I can also imagine another similar route operating to AAM, Downtown Hamtramck, and maybe the Russell Industrial Center or the Boston/Edison Area. Other DDOT, SMART, and AATA service changes will surely be needed in order to maximize the return on a CRT investment, but I think this sort of service could do a lot to help Central Detroit. The purpose is not to connect those destinations to the train station, but to connect those destinations together, the train station is just one of those destinations. Therefore, this sort of service should be run even at times when CRT is not running. Other things: E_hemingway, while tracks to not still exist in that area, there is little in the way to prevent them from being added in the future. BTW - I don't think that your link in post 1037 is what you meant to send us. quote: WRT to equipment question. This is my impression, having no inside information. *Amtrak basically has no F40s left, but I believe they do have some excess P42 capacity. (This means they probably have the traction power.) *They have virtually no excess passenger cars. For some of their operations, they don't even have enough to run the trains they want. Amtrak needs more capital funding in order to overhaul wrecked and worn out equipment in order to run their normal operation efficiently. *Besides, Amtrak's equipment is not really meant for this type of service, and it would probably put more wear and tear on the interiors that Amtrak would want. *This means that some kind of purchase or lease of commuter equipment will be needed. Some other agency such as Chicago's METRA or Toronto's GO might have extras, or some older second hand equipment might be the route. *At this time Amtrak appears to be the operating company of the trains, but they may or may not have anything to do with procuring equipment. Miketoronto, I agree that there are many other important things that should be happening WRT transit in SE Michigan, but I can't agree on your "maybe later" sentiment. I'm reminded of a recent post of Lowell's recently where he stated, "politics is the art of the possible." Your post also ignores one of the most important things pressing Michigan metro areas right now: We need to turn the land use trends around in order to build a broad-based knowledge economy. This means rail transit and livable (and lively) cities. It also means a commuter rail link between three of the states important universities. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 332 Registered: 12-2006 |
They have some F40s, but not a lot. Caltrain has many of what was left of them (if I heard correctly). Amtrak is also retiring it's fleet of Amfleet cars, so it's possible that if Amtrak picks up some new cars soon, we could get those. They have some spare superliner cars , but not enough to make commuter service out of them. Those were used on the Lake Shore Limited 1 or 2 weeks ago when train 49 rammed a bean truck near Toledo. So they do have some extras, just not enough. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1869 Registered: 12-2003 |
I suspect those superliners were taken from the pool that was out for maintenance. I don't think Amtrak will be retiring anything until they are able to get new equipment, and that might not be for a while. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2079 Registered: 10-2003 |
I wonder if Metra is still selling off the gallery cars. VRE picked up a whole bunch for $1 a pop (shipping not included). | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 333 Registered: 12-2006 |
I found a list of Amtrak equipment. Amfleet II: 124 Amcoaches (Capacity 59): 113 Active 5 Amcoaches (Capacity 55): 5 active Superliner I: 47 Coach/Baggage (Superliner- Capacity 62): 41 active 101 Superliner Coaches (Capacity 75): 72 active Superliner II: 37 Superliner Coaches (Capacity 75): 30 active Horizon Cars: 67 Coach (Capacity 78/82): 8 active 83 Coach (ADA) (Capacity 72): 65 active Engines: 207 P42s (Top Speed 110): 200 active, 7 retired 0 F40s active (some have been preserved and are being used) For complete car and engine listings go to: http://www.on-track-on-line.co m/amtk-roster-engines.shtml (engine) or http://www.on-track-on-line.co m/amtk-roster-cars.shtml | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1039 Registered: 11-2004 |
Transit Riders United said it one of its e-mail that there is the possibility of getting some new cars on loan from the manufacturer for the starter line. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 337 Registered: 12-2006 |
Which manufacturer? That would be god if it happened. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2006 |
Ive been thinking that if the region stuck to using the bus system perhaps riders could be given a visual reinforcement that they were riding a woodward line bus. It could be any Ddot bus but it would prominently advertise it served a woodward loop only. Perhaps it could be a different color and bus stops could have a certain symbol that signifies its a woodward bus loop stop. This would reassure they were getting on the correct bus and hopefully instill some confidence in close to on time arrivals if several buses only drive the loop.It's suprising how a little thing like this can make riders more comfortable. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 459 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thats what I have been saying. Woodward Ave buses have to be marketed with a different style, etc. Woodward should be a limited stop service, that is marketed with special stops, bus colours, etc. Check out this link to see how the Woodward Ave bus routes could be marketed as. Click on the following link about a rapid bus route http://www.vivayork.com/ Then once in the website click on "community", then "viva the video" | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2081 Registered: 10-2003 |
Marketing, my ass. How about bus stop signs that indicate a bus stop, instead of the stupid "No Standing" symbol. How about posting route numbers? Schedules? Maps? Benches? Shelters? All of that would go a lot further than some ridiculous paint job. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2201 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Carrying out this fantasy yet further: So the elitist trainees now demand special, direct-connection buses on Woodward to/from "somewhere downtown, perhaps?" which needn't cater to regular riff-raff bus riders who might just want to get on or off enroute. Isn't that being a bit too arrogant? | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 211 Registered: 11-2005 |
Guys, this is a temporary line so that ridership amounts can be proven to get money from the government to build a high quality line with a light rail line from New Center to Detroit at least. As shown in the Alternatives Study. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 212 Registered: 11-2005 |
$6 to get a ride from ann arbor to detroit. I think that is a little steep. I agree with what others have said: You'd spend more than $6 in gas to make that drive. Especially with all the construction out near Plymouth/Canton. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2006 |
Livernoisyard, I believe this idea can be spun either way. I don't think it's elitist though. Im not saying it should be like the viva york thing exactly. It's not in my interest to make an ultra hip ipod ready bus. Instead itll just make busses that already or would be running up and down woodward only more visible. Im saying take a ddot but and imagine the ones with the huge mcdonalds wrapped advertisements on them and instead they say the woodward line on them with some hip logo. Its not pushing everyday riders off because its essentially been a route that always existed it would just make it more visible and possibly more frequent. It wouldnt necessarily have to make less stops although it would be a plus if it ran more of an express route to major places between pontiac and detroit. These lines not only need to make up for the lack of existing rapid transit but they need to make their presence known. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1042 Registered: 11-2004 |
A vast majority of the hodge podge of DDOT and SMART buses that travel along Woodward stay on Woodward and go to New Center. However, most people don't know that and aren't familiar with the routes. Many people are afraid that a bus might make a turn and take them in the opposite direction they want to go, leaving them stranded God knows where. Some sort of distinguishing feature, something as simple as a big green dot, could let riders know that this bus is going to stop at New Center. A cheap public education campaign, say a few media stories and easily accessible info on SMART and DDOT pamphlets and maps, can get the word out about it quick. Making this work can be done easily in a cost effective way, but that can be a big if. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 781 Registered: 02-2006 |
Maybe, God forbid, they could start with bus stop signs that indicate the route, perhaps even with a map...this, rather than a tiny sign with simply a DDOT or SMART logo.  | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 999 Registered: 04-2005 |
e_hemingway...a lynchpin of the commuter rail plan fell out today. pfizer's in the midst of a big layoff. pharma is under pressure, yet granholm touted the industry as part of our economic turnaround. pharmaceuticals have been under enormous pressure from democrats to reduce prices, and now who's in control of the legislature in washington? the rail system will never happen, but lots of granholm's friends will continue making money figuring out whether the system is viable or not. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 836 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thecarl, There is no pfizer stop for this train. There are literally thousands of jobs along this corridor. Why do you bring up the drug company anyway? There are much better examples of nearby companies laying off people. One example is Ford Motor Company right across from the Dearborn station. Why no complaining about Ford layoffs? Are you reaching for some sort of reason to link Granholm to the dems to the drug companies? It seems to me that republicans like generic drugs too. Companies like Walmart would have never started this downward trend in drug pricing if it was not accepted by the then republican controlled federal government as part of its new prescription drug program. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1000 Registered: 04-2005 |
detroitplanner, nothing you say contradicts anything i have to say, yet your demeanor is confrontational? please read my post again, slowly. 1. granholm touted the industry as part of our economic turnaround 2. pharmaceuticals have been under enormous pressure from democrats to reduce prices both are true. this reflects granholm's denial and dishonesty. she counted upon an uninformed electorate to believe the pharma sector would save michigan. the pharma sector is in big trouble right now. pfizer provides the proof. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 290 Registered: 02-2006 |
Will it have a stop at the numerous MichiganWorks! offices between Detroit and Ann Arbor? It seems like a lot of people could use a lift there. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 86 Registered: 12-2006 |
Nudging us gently back toward the thread's purported topic... Focusonthed, Mdoyle and Miketoronto have hit on something significant but little discussed. With all the focus on some kind of rapid transit, we must keep in mind that it is also important to make the existing bus systems more user friendly. The specifics of that could go in a lot of different directions. In order for transit to take hold here as a user-choice form of transportation, a member of the general public has to perceive transit as something he or she might use, at least situationally. Knowing you're catching the right bus is a piece of that, and branding is also a piece. This isn't to shut out the people who use transit because they have to; almost no city anywhere would have a single transit bus without the continuing patronage of that part of the community. The point is to make transit more attractive to more people, which increases support and improves service, thereby gaining more users until you have some reasonable constant percentage of your trips being made this way. (In metro Detroit, 2% has been more or less constant, but isn't reasonable.) You can check out transit use in other regions, particularly late rapid-transit implementers, to get some idea what's possible. We'll always have more people using private vehicles than transit (just like almost everywhere else), but the more people choose transit, the less gasoline we expend as a region and the less pressure there is on our overtaxed road network. Cheers, Professor Scott | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2007 |
Just came from the TRU,(Transportation Riders United,Inc.), meeting at the Guardian Building in Detroit. Among the distinguished guest speakers were John Hertel- CEO, Regional Mass Transit; Richard Blouse- CEO, Greater Detroit Regional Chamber; Jewel Ware- Chair, Wayne County Commission; and Jeff Irwin- Chair, Washtenaw County Commission. John Hertel spoke about the two toughest C's, complexity due to seven governmental bodies, and cost. One governmental body is difficult enough to have consensus on. The seven mentioned were Macomb, Oakland, Wayne, Washtenaw, Detroit, State, and Federal. These must come together in an united effort to the greater good of all. He also stated that a comprehensive transit system will be expensive. TRU's and other interested parties' job in this is to inform the public about the benefits of improved transit and the positive spinoff transit provides. (This is most needed. Especially when they plan to put another DARTA like entity proposal on the ballot this year. One that ex-gov. John Engler can't veto.) Richard Blouse spoke about the past efforts since '94 that transit efforts have stumbled and the need to sell transit to those who wouldn't be a regular user of the system. Example: Say you drove downtown for an event but will meet up with others who took transit but will ride home with you. Jeff Irwin spoke of the Detroit/Ann Arbor Line as being cheapest to do because the tracks and stations are there. The cost of the train cars and engines would not have to cost much. Other notable visitors were two Detroit City Councilwomen, and several Oakland County officials. Sorry I couldn't remember their names. Quite a packed meeting though. TRU did a great job with the meeting and getting so many officials to attend and contribute. For those who went to the meeting, please correct me if I was inaccurate. No photographic memory or journalistic abilities here. (Message edited by Warrenite84 on January 23, 2007) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2006 |
Glad you were there Warrenite, I had planned to make it but couldn't. I think it's critically important that the Chamber supports these efforts. Incidentally a commuter line up Woodward would be exactly as inexpensive as the D/AA line and for exactly the same reasons. Professor Scott | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 782 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: Absolutely. In addition to my simple bus stop signage suggestion, I find it ridiculous that I cannot go to DDOT's website and see a system map. There just isn't one. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2202 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Making any Woodward buses limited access is exclusionary--by definition. Because any public transportation pays back only a tiny part of the costs via the cash box, why should cash-strapped Detroit (which only meets its current expenses with short-term borrowing) endure more borrowing to provide special buses along a four-mile stretch on Woodward AND restrict any riders who live/work along that stretch from using them. BTW, in case someone overlooked the words (which means things, BTW) used by MT "Woodward should be a limited stop service, that is marketed with special stops", that means such a bus will not pick up along the way except at special locations. I could see that if and only if those elitist riders would pay the whole freight instead of the 10 to 15% of the costs as now via the cash box. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 839 Registered: 04-2006 |
Carl, my only point was your position was very divisive and not really helpful to discussing the subject. This is a thread about transportation, not politics, not layoffs. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 732 Registered: 09-2005 |
Bus display: DOWNTOWN SHUTTLE VIA WOODWARD reverse direction: TRAIN STATION SHUTTLE VIA WOODWARD Problem solved. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 460 Registered: 07-2004 |
A Woodward Limited bus would not be bad. It does not mean we are being elitist. All a WOODWARD LIMITED bus would do, is stop where a subway would stop. So instead of every block, it may only stop every 5 blocks. Its to provide a more rapid style of service, with quality service. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2204 Registered: 10-2004 |
And as Kwamme says: only 70% of city workers show up for work on a daily basis and only 70% of DDOT's scheduled buses were running just a little as two ears ago. And still the city cannot afford to provide its present level of services without having to borrow money in order to satisfy its current budgets. So where should the cuts come in order to provide even more services that it cannot afford already? Detroit's residents are leaving at about 23,000 annually and taking their tax dollars with them. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1871 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: This is worth repeating Professorscott.....Over and over and over again. It is also worth adding that other lines might be slightly more costly, since there hasn't been passenger service on them for a while (no currently active stations) but there are many more possibilities. Mt. Clemens and Monroe seem like logical nexts to me. Just look at the metro Detroit zoom on this map: http://www.michigan.gov/docume nts/MDOT_Official_Rail_130897_ 7.pdf | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 733 Registered: 09-2005 |
Jsmyers, you make some good points. Really, the tracks are there for a decent regional commuter rail system. Also the tracks are in place for an Amherstburg-LaSalle-Windsor-De troit line and a Belle River-Tecumseh-Windsor-Detroit line as well. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2006 |
Jsmyers, Yep. LY, There already are limited-stop buses all over the place, including this region. What's one more? Upinottawa, Can you include Wallaceburg on that list or am I getting too remote? Gotta throw some props to my peeps on Bkejwanong. Professor Scott | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 734 Registered: 09-2005 |
Wallaceburg is getting a bit out there (small population as well), although people may be willing to commute from Chatham (Wallaceburg's regional hub city). I know that a considerable number of people commute to work from Chatham to Windsor or Detroit each day. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 735 Registered: 09-2005 |
Detroit would really be back if it could sustain a commuter rail line from Chatham, Ontario! | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1872 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: LY, once again you are missing the point and hearing what you want to hear. Nobody would be excluded from using the buses. Especially those who "live/work along that stretch." In fact, they would be the primary riders. Explain to me how a buss that stops every 5-10 blocks instead of every 2-3 excludes anyone. It provides a different service (being a faster route to the most popular destinations), but it doesn't exclude anyone. WRT the financing of such a route. DDOT would not need to borrow money to buy new buses. They have enough right now. http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot/ aboutDDOT/operations.html Unfortunately, they might end up using those stupid trolley buses (I hate those things--now that is a waste of money--although CNG is great), but they have the equipment. WRT operating cost: Operating cost is a function of service miles (and also service time, but those are highly related). If the fair for a "central city express" route is $1, and the average trip might only be 2 miles, DDOT gets $.50 per passenger mile. Compare this to a current DDOT route, where the fair is $1.50, but the average trip length might be closer to 5 miles. On this bus, DDOT gets $.30 per passenger mile. Such a route is an opportunity to improve DDOT's financial situation. Others discussing this route might have other ideas, but from my POV, marketing mostly means outreach to the thousands of potential riders along this route. This means WSU and CCS students, Tigers/Lions fans, DIA, motown, science center, library, & AA history museum visitors, DMC/HHH dr.s, nurses, residents, patients, & visitors, downtown and new center office workers, but it also means the residents of Brainard St. Apartments who need to catch a smart bus out to a suburban mall to work at the food court, or the homeless vet that needs to get the VA hospital, or any of the other transit-dependent people that live in Central Detroit. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2205 Registered: 10-2004 |
Detroit's shifting more and more to user's fees, such as a $300/year fee for trash pickup. So, let's charge the users the whole freight on any additional unnecessary city functions, such as limited-access buses for elitists on the most heavily bussed street--Woodward--in Detroit. I see absolutely no problem with that concept. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1873 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Show me where and Kwame said that. You sure do like to make statements of fact without any support. Prove me wrong about DDOT's operations. quote: Maybe that is because they can't get to where they need to go in a reasonable amount of time, or can't get to their job outside of the city limits. Quality transit is one thing that a city can offer that makes it more attractive to live in a city. It is also one thing that suburbs have a very difficult time providing. If one wants to grow Detroit's population, transit is a must. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1874 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: You write this even though I just showed you that it is more cost-effective for DDOT to operate this service than most of the service it already operates. I'm not sure your are functionally literate: *There is no aspect of what I am proposes that is "limited-access." Limited stops does not equal limited access. It means faster service for all. Case in point: From my experiences riding the 53 bus, it is slowed down quite a bit by stopping at places in the Midtown area to pick up people that are going straight downtown. I also believe it is where the buses tend to be most crowded. Providing this service will help provide a more comfortable, faster ride for everybody riding a bus on Woodward, in addition to improving DDOT's financial situation. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2082 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And likewise start tolling streets, roads, and highways. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1875 Registered: 12-2003 |
Not to mention that 6 buses running the loop can provide the service. This is out of a fleet of 472 buses on 52 fixed route lines. http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot/ aboutDDOT/operations.html To get an idea of how many buses are on each line at a given time, divide the time of a round trip by the headway (time between buses). 6 buses is nothing, especially when the riders are paying more per service mile for the ride. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2206 Registered: 10-2004 |
Providing limited bus service on Woodward would require a new route to be added in addition to the several routes currently servicing Woodward. Unless service cuts are made elsewhere, it just means that there will be more cost and expense. Simple as that. The city is broke and needs to borrow in order to maintain liquidity and already had to cut some 24-hour bus routes down in hours, made other service cuts, and has totally eliminated other bus routes within the past couple years in order to save money. So again, what will be cut in order to provide unnecessary service on Woodward and why don't the users pay the freight more and more, which is already happening for some services in Detroit? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2083 Registered: 10-2003 |
See my comment above. If Detroit put tolls on the freeways coming into downtown, then the money currently used to fill potholes and maintain pavement could be put toward buses. Maybe increased taxes on surface parking lots, since there is a lost opportunity cost that comes with an empty lot. You know, user fees, paying the freight, and all. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2207 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm for toll roads--as long as they're privatized. Ditto for other services. I just heard on WJR news a half hour ago that the city of Chicago just privatized its water utility. However, my radio was at a low volume level in a slightly noisy environment--barking dogs and traffic--and yet I haven't been able to verify that via a web search. If that's true, that's another hard blow to the region's socialists... Money--it's always about the money. First come up with money before spending it. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1876 Registered: 12-2003 |
Now many have said that Detroit's existing transit operations need improvements. I couldn't agree more. In my opinion, one of DDOT's problems is that they often run parallel service on close-by streets. This increases the number of places you can catch the bus (and minimizes the length of a walk), but it greatly increases the time you may have to wait for a bus. This is especially problematic when buses don't keep their schedule well. I think it would be better if when possible buses are located on the same street. Then if you are taking a shorter trip, it is likely that any of the buses will come by in a few minutes and you can take any of them. For an example: I used to live near the corner of 2nd and Alexandrine in the Cass Corridor. I was served by 3 bus routes that go downtown: http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot/ pdf/53WoodwardMF.pdf http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot/ pdf/16DexterMF.pdf http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot/ pdf/23Hamilton.pdf One was on Woodward, one on Cass, and one on 2nd/3rd (one-way pair). There is no reason that buses should be criss-crossing themselves every which way on every street which is in walking distance of the others. Make the routes direct (turns take time) and aggregate them onto as few streets as possible to get reasonable coverage. There is no reason that 16 shouldn't be on Woodward up to West Grand right now. If Woodward gets LRT, then all three of them should be on Cass for that stretch. People have already mentioned bus stop improvements (route map/schedule, etc). I couldn't agree more. I also think that DDOT needs to make sure that every route ends and some kind of job center in the suburbs. (Many do now). It needs to be easy for city residents to get to jobs. The current SMART rules for pickup/drop-off in Detroit are confusing and problematic. (I honestly am not sure exactly what they are, since I can't find it on the SMART website right now--also a problem.) I think that maybe all SMART buses in the city should run express during most hours. Some stops will pickup and drop-off anybody at all hours, and others will not be considered SMART stops at all (except for maybe late night service). These stops would be within every 5-10 blocks instead of the usual every 2-3. This will improve SMART running times, and provide additional service within the city between major destinations. Similarly, DDOT might run express in the suburbs in order to get to important job centers (or the city-owned zoo) that are not currently served. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1877 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Fair question. First of all, realize how little really needs to be cut in order to provide this service. 6 buses at any given time, maybe 4 or 5 late at night. That is it. Look at my previous post for some ideas. Maybe 16 or 23 can be cut short to New Center, since now there is a frequent express ride downtown for those who want it. Maybe 53's headways can be increased from 8 minutes during peak time to 9 minutes. Maybe some of the other buses that pass near new center on their way downtown can be cut short at new center (36 & 40 are examples). Nevermind that perhaps SMART and the AATA should probably chip in since many of the riders will be originating from their buses. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2209 Registered: 10-2004 |
Probably, the only sensible reason that both SMART and DDOT channel all those buses speedily up and down Woodward is that it speaks to the relative deadness of the CBT. No other municipal bus system would needlessly duplicate so much "service" along Woodward and get so little in return. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1878 Registered: 12-2003 |
You didn't read my post very carefully. Most of those buses are not channeled up Woodward, and that is the problem. They are on parallel routes, often only a block or two away. (Message edited by jsmyers on January 23, 2007) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2210 Registered: 10-2004 |
I read your post and I am posting as to possibly why the buses at present speedily transit the Woodward corridor, especially near downtown. The dead CBT is nothing more than a transfer point for other routes and not a meaningful destination in itself, and the buses just zip to or fro the CBT through Woodward to get in or out of Dodge. Besides, whenever I take the bus, I have four choices--one to walk four blocks to one route or 0.9 mile, 1.3 miles, or 1.6 miles to others. If I at my age easily do it, those relative few living or working in the CBT (a few measly blocks away, at most) could likewise walk without bitching. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 23, 2007) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1879 Registered: 12-2003 |
Looking here: http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot/ businfo/schedules.html I'm thinking about other things that DDOT can do to improve. It seems to me that a number of routes have confusing routing downtown, which does 2 negative things: 1. It discourages people from riding the bus, because they are not sure where to find the right one. 2. It adds time to the bus schedules, making the operation less efficient. For instance: http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot/ pdf/21GrandRvrMF.pdf Why the hell would the Grand River bus go up to Clifford to cross grand river and end up on Bagely for a while? It should stay on Grand River to Capitol Park and then take state to Cass back to Grand River (the most direct route). (I recongnize that the map may not be up to date, but if it is not that is a whole other problem.) In a similar train of thought, why do so many bus routings seem to ignore that the people mover exists. I wouldn't be surprised if few changes were made in 1987 when it started. A bus can't get itself to all of the destinations downtown (Lodge-75-375-river area), so it shouldn't even try. A combination of feet and the People mover can do the rest. I don't think that a rider can transfer from a bus to the people mover for free. An easy way to do that should be enabled. I don't think bus drivers handing out DPM tokens is a great idea, but maybe you can show a valid transfer at the DPM station. I'm sure DDOT will have to look at all of this when the new transit center opens, but I see no reason to wait. There is service improvements to be made, and money to be saved right now! | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2006 |
Transit planners do not assume that most people will walk 0.9 to 1.6 miles to reach transit because most people won't. I believe the standard for planning purposes is to assume that a typical potential user will walk up to 0.25 miles for a bus and 0.5 miles for a train of any kind. That's why it's common to run buses along parallel roads that aren't very far apart. What makes our bus system inefficient is the lack of a true rapid mode. In most regions with rapid transit, the buses are used to bring people to and from the rapid transit, not to try to connect everything to everything. The typical motorist uses streets and freeways in a like fashion. You drive on a local road only to get to a freeway (if you're going any significant distance). | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1308 Registered: 11-2003 |
I would have to imagine that the routing will change when the new Rosa Parks Transit Center opens in downtown. This is being built right next to the DPM with the idea of transfers. They may be waiting to redo the routes until this is done and just do it all at once. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 736 Registered: 09-2005 |
The Professor raises an extremely important point: when rapid transit is in place (or introduced) bus routes are often realigned to bring people to and from the rapid transit (as rapid transit replaces the use of local buses for longer distance travels). That being said, a commuter train running every 30 minutes (probably best case scenario) is not really rapid enough to completely readjust DDOT's routes into a hub and spoke system. At least that it my opinion. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-2006 |
Up, Commuter rail typically runs on one-hour headways. (Toronto's GO system works that way for instance.) Thirty minutes would be an unusual frequency. Light rail, which stops more frequently, runs on shorter headways because people use it differently. The common situation is that bus routes are designed so certain trips service the commuter rail and others do not. At least that's how I've seen it done elsewhere. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1880 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: True PScott, except every block (or even every other block) is too close together. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 461 Registered: 07-2004 |
DDOT needs a massive change in their bus routes. As has been stated, some areas do not need two bus routes a block apart running once an hour. Put them togther on one road. The thing with DDOT is they are serving a city with half the pop it had, and many vacant neighbourhood. Can DDOT afford to run a bus within 500 meters of every home? Maybe instead of having poor service on all these bus routes, they should consolidate the routes and run them more often. If it means some people might have to walk an extra two blocks I don't see the big deal, if it means better service. I am sorry, but Cass and Woodward do not both need a bus. Put them all on Woodward. DDOT also sends way to many buses downtown. There should be the buses that go downtown along Wooward, Michigan, Grand River, Gratiot, Jefferson, and Fort. All the other buses should just meet up with these main bus routes, instead of all the buses going downtown. The MACK bus for example does not need to run downtown. It should end at Woodward, and people wishing to go downtown can transfer to the WOODWARD Bus. DDOT should be trying not be duplicating so much considering the limited resources they need. There is also another route that runs along Larned Street, like one block from Jefferson Ave, through East Detroit. There is no need for that, when Jefferson is a block away. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1881 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: I'm having a hard time making any sense of what you are writing. I'm guessing when you write CBT you mean CBD (central business district). I can't find where anybody was bitching about walking a few blocks. I agree that people should be walking within the CBD, or any other dense place for a few blocks, or a 1/4 or even a 1/2 mile in a residential area. That was precisely my point. You are right that many or even most bus riders are using the CBD to transfer, but discounting its role as a meaningful destination is ridiculous. And the buses run into quite a bit of traffic downtown, maybe not as much as we would like, or as much as a similar bus in Chicago hits, but enough to warrant simple, direct routing that reduces turns and unnecessary distance. quote: DDOT's system pretty much is a hub and spoke now. The AATA, DDOT, and SMART will all have to and want to make changes to help commuter rail and to take advantage of commuter rail. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2214 Registered: 10-2004 |
Duh! Too long a day without much sleep... Yeh, CBD. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2007 |
There's no reason local LRT lines and express lines can't co-exist on Woodward. Just have double tracks for passing at the local stops so that express trains from the burbs or downtown can pass the local trains and go on their way. Livernoisyard, express trains or busses are not necessarily for elitists. If someone lived downtown and had a job in Pontiac, that worker would also be hampered by lack of an express system. It would have a diminished benefit for long distance riders. They need speedy service too. Transit is supposed to benefit the most people possible, not to exclude one group or another. As for carrying a greater share of the cost, sure longer distance, more cost. Everyone needs to know transit NEVER pays for itself. Thru taxation, rates for long distance travelers should make transit advantageous or you will never get them to use the system. Another thing to mention which is just as important is an East- West system for cross town commuters. With Macomb being a somewhat bedroom community, and Oakland a jobs community, it would seem to have greater potential for demand than a Woodward line. What's your thoughts on this? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 95 Registered: 12-2006 |
Warrenite, Ordinarily, light rail vehicles aren't allowed to use freight-railway tracks. Commuter rail vehicles are, so the two almost always operate in different running-ways. There are exceptions but rare. It's a safety concern I believe, something to do with the different construction standards. An East-West system is important (and a north-south system for the west suburbs while you're at it), but difficult since there are no tracks of any kind. That's why so many of us focus on the "spoke" corridors first; that's where the low-hanging fruit is. Professor Scott | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2215 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: SMART services Pontiac already with its Woodward route, and Amtrak does provide some service from New Center to Pontiac. For me, I'd have to transfer once or twice to get places after a considerable walk. Tough! Dem's da breaks! If any rail commuters want speedier bus rides, tough for them too! Let them take a cab or something before or aft. That's what taxis are for anyway, and they are in the private sector, to boot. But no! Incessant whining about how nice it isn't for occasionals who haven't even started riding yet and probably never will. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 23, 2007) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1882 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Tell that to the single mom that has to go on welfare because she got fired from her job in Great Lakes Crossing on account of being late because the bus was unreliable. You repeatedly miss the point. It is like you are trying not to get it. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2216 Registered: 10-2004 |
I get it. You probably will find fault with any and all public (taxpayer-paid) services. That hypothetical single mom [who didn't have to be single, in the first place, but that's another major issue] could move closer to work if need be. There's no pleasing everybody or touching all bases apparently for you. If her job wasn't conveniently (for your sob story) in Pontiac, how would she get there otherwise? Again more (hypothetical) whining on your part in order to try to bolster an already weak case. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1883 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: While this is true, there 1) isn't really a need, since there is a parallel heavy rail track that can easily accomplish the express function and 2) there isn't really enough room on Woodward south of 6 mile to accomplish this. quote: It bears repeating that this is true for all transportation (roads, air travel, passenger ships) once all of the capital cost are figured in. The important question is "is this government expenditure worth it?" Ask that about tens of millions of dollars to double or triple the capacity of an interchange at I-96 and Wixom Rd. Then ask that about building an effective transit system. quote: I agree. Besides Scott's "low hanging fruit" comment, there are many challenges. First of all is transit supportive land use. I believe that the most important thing for transit to work is having land use that fosters transit at the stops. That is why I like the AA-Det. All of the major stops have walkable housing and commercial. It is also why I like the Woodward corridor. Finding a similar route east west is tough. *Mack-Warren through midtown is an intriguing possibility. It would connect the Pointes to Dearborn with the Midtown area in the middle. *8 mile is a strong possibility because there is a lot of room in the ROW. If the corridor is turned to the NW at the Lodge, Southfield is a large job and shopping center. A lot of people live close to 8 mile and there is a lot of shopping, but nothing is especially dense or walkable right now. *The 696 corridor has the density of travel, supportive land use in some places, but the problem here is finding room to place a track or a busway. *The Metroparkway corridor is also a possibility. Troy is a huge job center. Birmingham and Mount Clemens are both dense and walkable, but there is a whole lot of low-density development in between. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 300 Registered: 02-2006 |
Gotta go with LY on this one. She didn't have to be a mom and she didn't have to work so far from home either. All I want to know about light rail in this are are: 1. Will it create jobs? 2. Will it cost taxpayers money? I have a feeling the answers are 1. a few but low paying and 2. yes. As long as the answer to #2 is yes then forget it. Jenny will probably want to put a tax on the ticket too. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1884 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: No you don't. quote: Detroit is filled with people in this situation. Some are married, some are men, some don't have kids, but their stories are all similar. They can't find or keep a job because they can't get to where the jobs are reliably. But their solution is to just move to closer right? Because they can easily afford a place to live by Great Lakes Crossing, or the Somerset Collection, or 12 Oaks Mall, or the McDonald's at the 2X Mile Rd exit of I-94. But once they are there, they'll still either need to get on a bus, or buy (and insure, maintain, and fuel) a car. But that is not your or the government's problem right? Maybe not until they decide to take your entertainment system to pay the rent and feed their family. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4619 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ok, if a non-expert, but a regular user of buses chimes in. I keep reading all of these posts about bus lines running only a block apart. Those lines only run that close through the CBD and the near areas, after that they fan out to quite distant destinations. For example the Jefferson line and the Lafayette-Van Dyke lines parallel each other for about 3 miles, 1 or 2 blocks apart. At Van Dyke the Lafayette-Van Dyke line turns north and goes all the way to 8 Mile (Belmont Plaza where it meets other lines), Jefferson continues to the border of GPP (Wayburn). Those two lines while they appear to run close together end up miles apart. For me either is ideal since I have stops for each at each end of my block, but if I lived further out my choice would be limited to only one of those lines. I suggest obtaining a map of the system (they are still available, I think) and looking at the overall picture instead of just what you observe in and around the CBD. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2217 Registered: 10-2004 |
People who continually steal home entertainment systems don't steal to feed their families but to feed their drug habits instead. Sheesh! Come up with better fiction than that, why doncha. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1885 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks for chiming in Jams. I realize that those routes end up in very different locations. That is a good thing. I hope I didn't give the impression otherwise. What I am saying is that if those two lines are going to be so close while they are parallel, they should just be on the same route. It sounds like you have a stop on each end of your block for each route. If that is the case, wouldn't it be better to have service twice as often but at only one of those places? The two different routes would still end up in two different places, but they would function as one route while they take the same path. Instead of looking at the schedule and deciding which stop to walk to in order to get a bus downtown soonest, you just go to the stop. Do you see what I am saying? | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1886 Registered: 12-2003 |
Now we find that Livernoisyard is not only an expert in transportation planning and economics, but also an expert on the criminal mind. You don't know what all of the thieves steal for. But once again you miss my point. Your arguments look ridiculous under scrutiny, and the best response you have is "I don't like the details of your example." The me rephrase: The poor's inability to get to their jobs or find affordable housing close to their jobs must not be a problem in your eyes for either you or the government. But what happens when idle hands and desperate minds turn to crime to cope, escape, or get by. (Selling drugs to thieving crackheads is also a crime, and one that seems to be pretty profitable.) -I even took out any hint of sarcasm so it would be easy to follow me. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4621 Registered: 10-2003 |
The stops at each end of my block are for two different routes. What would be gained by having them follow each other down the same street than splitting, rather then routes paralleling each other by a block or two for a few miles then continuing towards the destinations. It still requires 2 buses, and more people are served by not duplicating the routes on the same streets nearer the CBD. I've kept quiet but have followed this thread with interest, but I admit, I'm not thrilled about people making the decisions that don't seem to use transit themselves. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2219 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: The vast portion of the US (area wise) isn't close to any public transportation, BTW. Gosh! How DO the folks who never lived close to any public transportation ever make it to work??? Oh! I get it! Those people, by definition, are not poor. Again, your making poster children of the poor or whatever or whomever you use to try to make a case is wearing a bit thin. Make some logical justification for taxpayers' providing a rail service where there already is bus service or, in the case of AA, for not filling in the gap in bus service by the cheap alternative of either AA or SMART just extending and connecting at some point. But please spare us all this emotional BS. None of that will ever help fund your causes with the taxpayers or politicians. They're not that stupid, really. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1887 Registered: 12-2003 |
I rode the bus home this afternoon. I do use transit. And I used it when I lived in Detroit too. What would be gained? Please consider this crude diagram (please excuse the dots, I couldn't get the spaces to be fixed width): 1............2 .\........../ ..\......../ ...\....../ ....\..../ .....\../ ......3 ......| ......| ......| ......| ......4 On my little doodle, Two Bus routes go from point 4 to point 3, then they split and one each go to points 1 & 2. Both bus routes have service every 30 minutes. But because they are on the same street between 3 and 4, there is bus service between those two points every 15 minutes. Now if they were separated by a block or two between 3 and 4, the walk to get to a bus stop would be shorter. (I didn't say there weren't any tradeoffs.) But a potential rider traveling along that stretch would need to consult a schedule (assuming they are reliable) to decide which bus stop to walk to. For many potential riders this means they won't take the bus. For others, it will mean they will feel cheated when they are waiting at one stop and they see a bus pass the other stop one block down. One of the biggest factors in attracting travelers to a mode of travel is the frequency of service. Combining nearby transit routes for the length they are parallel and nearby helps to increase the frequency of service. My whole argument would fall apart if there were extremely frequent service (every 5 minutes or so) on these routes. But since most bus routes in Detroit are no better than every 15 minutes, I think there is quite an advantage. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2084 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Numbers, please. How cheap is "cheap"? Compare this to the cost of commuter rail. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 96 Registered: 12-2006 |
There are advantages to the existing bus configuration in the CBD and there are also advantages to the modification that has been suggested. The service we have in the CBD works reasonably well; it would be nice if there was better information on the ground to tell you where to go to catch a particular bus. As far as an east-west transit route in the north suburbs, I agree with Jsmyers that transit-supportive land use is critical. The Michigan Suburbs Alliance is working on a process by which communities could "upzone" land near transit, but for now we are dealing with what exists on the ground. I would say a line from Roseville to Farmington, using a combination of various roads to hit as many transit-supportive locations as possible (even if it zigzagged a bit) would make decent sense. LY, there are an awful lot of poor working people, and owning a car is a huge expense. A lot of those poor working people are young adults, which is one of the reasons young adults leave this area. This is one of the reasons every other large urban area in the developed world provides rapid transit. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2006 |
Dan, A cost comparison is a little out of place because light rail and commuter rail serve different purposes. Commuter rail (which is relatively inexpensive to implement) serves very long commutes, infrequently (once per hour is common) with stops several miles apart. Light rail serves a local transit service, frequently (every 5 minutes at peak times in many regions) with stops roughly a half-mile apart (more in some places, less in others). It is fairly expensive to implement but provides an important service, and is by far the most common mode implemented in the last 30 years. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1888 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: It doesn't really freaking matter what portion of the land mass in the US is close to public transit now does it? People ride transit, not trees and rocks. The majority of people in the US are served by transit. quote: You still miss my point. How many strikes do you get before you finally strike out? It is not emotional at all. Is solving Detroit's crime problem emotional? It doesn't really matter 2 shits if you or I care about people or not, crime is effecting our lives. You are paying taxes to catch them and keep them in jail. You are paying higher insurance because they exist. You pay with your quality of life because you have to take precautions and worry. You have to pay higher school taxes in order to make attempts to keep their kids from failing like they did. Make it completely selfish. You are getting screwed because Detroit's poor don't have access to decent transit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2085 Registered: 10-2003 |
^I'm well aware of that. I just don't think it would be as "cheap" as Livernoisyard thinks it would be to extend AATA and SMART existing service as a poor man's substitute for commuter rail service. I firmly believe that if you're going to make a claim, there should be supporting evidence. Right now, all the detractors have to offer is snide criticism and unsubstantiated "facts". Touching on your last point, I will just add that since I don't have to own a car, more of my income gets spent in my community instead of going to a bank or insurance company. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 339 Registered: 12-2006 |
Ok. This could take a while. To add onto Warrenite's part about the TRU meeting, they also discussed two light rail lines at the beginning. Woodward and Jefferson. Unfortunately, I arrived just as they finished that part, so I got a 5 second glance and memorized the two streets. The two city councilwomen were Joann Watson and Brenda Jones. Watson sounded like she wanted to preach throughout the whole thing. Both did promise to bring this up at a city council meeting. Other things that were discussed were the creation of cross-town rapid transit and the numerous political problems with getting this thing set up. And for anyone who is wondering about bicycles (someone did ask), they are trying to create several bike paths/walk paths around the counties. Pontiac - Detroit seems like the next trial route for commuter trains. As for the buses, I also live in an area where two routes run parallel to each other. My problem is that they start and stop in the same spot. SMART's 610/615/620 run almost completely parallel with the exception of the 620 running up Masonic and Little Mack (slightly hazy on this part, help would be appreciated). They then join around Harper and 8 Mile and run down Mack to Moross. At Chalfonte, the 620 splits off, while the 610/615 runs to Kercheval.The 620 goes to McKinley and up to Charlevoix. They run parallel until Maryland when they both hit that street and run down until Jefferson. Then they run out to Wayne State. There's another parallel route. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2220 Registered: 10-2004 |
Leaving Metro Detroit is not a bad thing seeing that there probably will never be enough employment to keep the now unemployed here. The unemployable are another matter. It's too bad that the latter blew their educational years and kissed away their future employment opportunities. Tough! But that's the way cookies crumble. It's not the responsibility of working Detroiters to continue supporting them with their taxes if they refuse to chase employment elsewhere if they have better chances of doing at least something. Why would employers hire the unemployable in metro Detroit anyways? They're the very bottom of a very deep barrel full of much better but unemployed laborers. Immigrants from over the world have emigrated and will continue to do so if their homelands cannot provide employment. Unfortunately,the city of Detroit is much like much of impoverished Europe a century ago, give or take a few decades. It's about time for some Detroiters to move on... | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4622 Registered: 10-2003 |
One thing you have left out of the equation is the densities of the surrounding areas. My example is an area that passes through a relatively dense area of apartment buildings, condos, single family neighborhoods, schools, etc. that extends several blocks. It is quite a difference walking a couple of extra blocks in the middle of winter to get to your stop, so I think those that use the system appreciate those parallel routes. Also my example includes schools along each route that allows the students a close drop-off/pick-up point. Would it be better to have them walk an extra block or two? Again I stress I'm just a user, and am just posting my observations. Personally I think Ddot's routes actually make quite a bit of sense and when learned can get you almost anywhere within the City quite handily. Now the frequency of service, number of buses, and all the other bitches about the service are the needs to be addressed. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1889 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Try this: http://www.smartbus.org/Smart/ Ride%20SMART/Doc/NewSmartMap.p df | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 340 Registered: 12-2006 |
Dumb thing wouldn't load on my computer. Shoulda mentioned that. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1890 Registered: 12-2003 |
Your input is valuable Jams...Thanks. quote: My Detroit experience with this is in the Cass Corridor, which I think fits the bill too. quote: From my POV, I'd rather have a long walk and a short wait than a short walk and a long wait, ESPECIALLY in winter. quote: Judging by the rising childhood obesity rates, walking might not be a bad thing. But seriously, this is a good point, and something that I did not consider. I would ask how old are the kids? If they are high school or even middle school-age, I would say they can handle it just fine. If they are elementary school kids, I might think differently. But I wonder how many of those students end up walking from the further bus stop anyway, just because that is the bus that goes to their neighborhood. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4624 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: That happens but many are going Downtown to meet their transfer line. It's quite an experience riding a nearly empty bus and hitting the school stop bus and suddenly the bus is jammed full to the point it makes no pickups until it gets Downtown. I learned to choose my seat to be near the exit since I got off before the end of the line. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4625 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Not this 6:30 a.m. with a strong wind blowing off the river and most of the sidewalks covered with slick ice. I hit a patch in the dark that I was sure was going to bring me down. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2221 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Try using a different browser. Sometimes that'll do it. A year or so I switched from various browsers--Opera or IE to Firefox. Around that time I had problems with SMART,but I cannot remember which browser(s) I used then. I have no problems with Firefox 1.5 or 2, though. Otherwise see if you have JavaScript enabled. However, I do not know if the SMART uses js but probably does. It seems that most larger sites and many minor ones are going that route. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 341 Registered: 12-2006 |
I have Firefox and Java. That's the problem. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2222 Registered: 10-2004 |
Install the PDF Download 0.7.8 extension for Firefox. Mine is set to the dialog option. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 23, 2007) | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1407 Registered: 12-2005 |
Maybe this would help: https://addons.mozilla.org/fir efox/plugins/ | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 343 Registered: 12-2006 |
Thanks guys. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2223 Registered: 10-2004 |
Where should Jim and I email our invoices? Lucky for you, Jenny hasn't taxed services yet... | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 344 Registered: 12-2006 |
To me or the state? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2224 Registered: 10-2004 |
Damn, you're on the dole too... | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 345 Registered: 12-2006 |
Yep. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2225 Registered: 10-2004 |
reprobate... | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 347 Registered: 12-2006 |
Thanks. |
