 
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 248
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 12:06 am: |    |
Sstashmoo, I haven't had a car for over 4 years. Japanese, American car or whatever I don't miss the expense. If I need one I rent. Thank god for decent public transportation. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1341
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 12:41 am: | |
There is no valid reason to avoid american cars in this day and age.
Uhhh, poor fuel economy in an era of $3-per-gallon gas? |
Mike
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 846
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:49 am: | |
karl is right.
when i was a kid, in the eighties, my memories of japanese cars were small, they rusted easy, plastic interior and low on features. they were underpowered.
plus, the ac./heat units in japanese/euro cars is poorer than american cars |
Paulc
Member
Username: Paulc
Post Number: 93
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
"Would you go back continually to a restuarant that has lousy food and poor service? I think not. Why should I behave differently?"
Philbert - although I agree with this logic - the perception I see from the "Anti Big 2.5" side, is one of "I had lousy food and poor service, so I am never eating food again." In this instance, food equates to ALL domestic autos - a "never to return" mentality.
"I'm in the market for a fuel-efficient hatchback (and by that I mean that it must get at least 30 mpg in city driving... that's not too much to ask for a modern, 21st-century car) with good build quality."
I just purchased a Dodge Caliber and love it - comes very close to the fuel economy you're persuing - hatchback, great features, etc. Have you looked into one of those?
I have driven Chrysler products (father is a retiree) for 20+ years... other than routine maintenance-related items, I have experienced only 1) faulty fuel pump (98 Cherokee Classic) which was promptly replaced under warranty (defective part from supplier) and 2) blown head gasket ('87 Dodge Omni) after 110K+ miles. Perhaps some here have had worse experience - but please realize that this is a "machine."
How many of us here have experienced issues with consumer electronics over time? Most of these products have been made in Japan for the last 40 years or so (now Taiwan, China, etc.). Does anyone ever say - I am no longer buying Asian? Why? There is no alternative. I believe in diverse trade and economy, but I agree with Sstashmoo's assertion that what most of those refer to as a "global economy" and "global competition" is smoke and mirrors. To me it simply means to sell out to the lowest common denominator to make a huge profit today - at what cost? |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1342
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
I just purchased a Dodge Caliber and love it - comes very close to the fuel economy you're persuing - hatchback, great features, etc. Have you looked into one of those?
The Dodge Caliber comes close. But the EPA fuel economy rating is only 28/32 mpg for the manual trans model, which means the real-world average will likely be short of 30 mpg. The Toyota Yaris that I ordered is EPA rated at 34/40 mpg and real-world users are averaging 33-36 mpg; in fact, many are achieving well over 40 mpg on the highway.
If Dodge would come out with a super-fuel-miser version of the Caliber that would achieve 35/40 mpg (or better), they'd make a hit with me.
My last two vehicles were Chrysler products (Jeeps). They basically ran OK (albeit with very poor fuel economy), but had annoying fit/finish and quality control problems. As I've stated before, every American car I've owned (and I've probably owned 25 cars) has had those nagging little glitches. I've finally run out of patience.
The fact that cars are "machines" is no excuse. Build 'em so they don't break, please. Take a little extra care during the assembly process... maybe give those bolts an extra turn so they stay tight... whatever it takes.
But I'm not wedded to driving a foreign car for the rest of my life, either. If I have problems with the Toyota, I'd probably try a domestic auto again -- if the Big 3 can start making cars that get the kind of high gas mileage that I demand.
(And I agree about the Japanese cars produced in the '70s and '80s... they certainly seemed cheap and flimsy, and prone to early rust-out. That's one reason why I insisted on buying/driving American cars for 30-plus years. But the Japanese automakers have their act together now.)
How many of us here have experienced issues with consumer electronics over time? Most of these products have been made in Japan for the last 40 years or so...
I've never had a single problem with my Denon stereo system, which is now 12 years old. It's simply excellent.
I think it's not too much to ask for a similar track record for my automobile. |
Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11258
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 12:06 pm: | |
quote:The Toyota Yaris that I ordered...
A Yaris eh? You'll have one cute little car there Fury. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
A Yaris eh? You'll have one cute little car there Fury.
Yep. I'll save a lot of money, too. That's the main thing.
It's basic transportation, and that's all I need. I don't get hung up on image any more; with gas prices so high, I now view cars as strictly a Point A-to-Point B proposition.
If I want style or performance, I'll get a motorcycle too (and I just might).
People bought the VW Beetle in high numbers in the '60s for economy and durability. I predict the same thing will happen in the next few years with cars like the Yaris and Honda Fit. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 628
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
I rented a car yesterday while I got some repairs done on the truck. I use "save a buck" rental car. They specialize in renting out used cars at low rates. I asked the guy why he only rents out Tuaruses. I got the same one this time I had last winter when my 37 year old AMC spun it's rod bearing. This 2002 Taurus has over 170K miles on it. I continued, playing devil's advocate by saying, "Wouldn't you prefer to keep a fleet of Toyota Camrys' or Honda accords' as they are of superior quality and need fewer repairs"? He responded that no, the Taurus and the Japanese cars need maintenance and repairs at about the same intervals these days. And that when a Toyota or Honda needs a brake job or water pump,or whatever it cost him two to three times to fix as what the Taurus requires. So in short it would be a poor business decision on his part to keep a stable of expensive to maintain japenese cars. |
Jimg
Member
Username: Jimg
Post Number: 785
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
So, everyone beating the "Buy American" drum here owns a Ford/GM car which they purchased new, or leased and then purchased? Yes? |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 629
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 12:54 pm: | |
Sure! The only reason I'd buy a foreign make was if I were employed by them. I haven't had a new vehicle since GM laid me off five years back, sorry, but child support and the house payment comes first! |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 6229
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
There's a service I've used called Execucar. They provide "sedan" service in Burbank, CA Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX Los Angeles, Ontario, Orange County, Phoenix, San Francisco, Tampa Bay, FL & Denver, CO. The drivers use Lincoln Town Cars. They've told me that they used to drive them for 250,000 miles, sometimes with the same engine/tranny, but recently decided that to assure complete, trouble-free transportation, they retire them at 200,000 miles. They have said repeatedly that no other automobile provides them the same level/combination of luxury, economy and reliability as the Lincoln. |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 186
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
Check out the mpg for these comparable midsize sedans:
I wouldn't say the Japanese models are far superior... |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 187
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
And the trucks?
|
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
Dnvn522, how about comparing the compacts? That's the niche that attracts the people who are concerned about fuel economy.
And in that segment, a difference of three or four mpg is a big deal. |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 188
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:02 pm: | |
Big difference in the city mileage...highway, not so much.
|
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 518
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:25 pm: | |
The only foreigners id give credit to are the Germans. Those Nazis sure know how to make a luxury sedan. I mean look at the Audi S8 or the S65 AMG those things blow American luxury cars out the water. And besides Cadillac there is nothing stateside that can compete. But this may not last forever, Cadillac looks like they are serious judging by the way the new CTS is looking and the current STS(my car)is awesome. Not to mention those Jaguar and Lincoln concepts of the past few years look pretty good. The Big 2.5, mostly GM, is getting their stuff together in 10 years all of you America car haters will be singing a different tune.
I just wish Cadillac would hurry and build an S class fighter before I am FORCED to buy a German. |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 458
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:39 pm: | |
LOL. Germans know how to do about anything. They invented beer, make incredibly good cars, and can fight like hell when it comes to war. Where would the world be without Germany (excluding the Hitler era)? |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1348
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:44 pm: | |
Big difference in the city mileage...
THAT'S what I'm talking about. Most of us do quite a bit of driving in the city or in suburban-style traffic, so THOSE are the numbers to watch. And it looks like the figures listed are for automatic transmission models... if you're really concerned about mpg, like I am, you get a manual.
Yaris EPA rating for the 5-speed model is 34/40.
Why is it that in the year 2007 a domestic automaker cannot produce a car that gets 30 mpg in the city? Have the Ford/GM/DCX engineers been sleeping on the job? Really, they've had all kinds of time to design cars that get 35, even 40 mpg in city traffic.
Behind the times. |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 460
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:58 pm: | |
Ford Escape Hybrid gets 31 city/37 Highway. Pontiac Vibe gets 30 city/36 Highway. These may not be compact cars, but they do fit the 30+ MPG City category. And in my opinion, the Vibe is a great car.
*Chrysler's website is impossible to navigate in the aspect of quick search results. Sorry about that. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 522
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 4:01 pm: | |
The Germans invented beer? I would have sworn that was a British invention judging by the large amount of pubs scattered throughout London, I guess you learn something everyday.
The Germans also tend to be overrated sometimes, for instance look at BMW in the last 5 years. The most overrated vehicles known to man. But they still got the Japs beat. |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 462
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 4:05 pm: | |
Never mind about the Germans. Beer was originally made in Mesopotamia during the beginning of civilization (according to Wikipedia and a few other sites). Germans just brought it to America and made it into a business. |
Awfavre
Member
Username: Awfavre
Post Number: 100
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:24 pm: | |
And the Americans watered it down with inferior products, such as rice, to make it cheap, tasteless, easily mass-produced, & low-cal. Thank God for the microbrewers! 
But I digress. Sorry!
Back to your originally scheduled programming . . . . |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 464
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:35 pm: | |
lol. That we did. |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 962
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:46 pm: | |
Fury, you going to buy a Fusion Hybrid when they come out? |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:38 pm: | |
The buy-in prices on hybrids are too expensive right now. If the manufacturers can price them at around $18,000 or less, I'd look at them, including a Fusion.
Yep, that's right, I want a cheap car, yet well made AND with good gas mileage. I want it all. |
Mike
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 847
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:55 pm: | |
good luck enjoying the yaris... the interior materials in that car are cheaper than those found in the aveo, which by all means is an embarasment.
if you wanted a car that size you should have checked out the honda fit, not my cup of tea but its getting the usually rave honda reviews.
the problem with the yaris is that by the time you load it up with features that you like you are close in price range to a four banger like the fusion (great car), malibu (sub-par), G6 (par), or the new offerings from Dodge.
the market is so competitive at the moment that if one just assumes toyota or japanese supiority they are really doing themselves a disservice.
oh by the way, the numbers above comparing the tundra to other trucks is misleading. the epa came out with new calculations for estimating miliage. what your looking at is a 07 silverado using the new calculations vs the last gen tundra using the old method. |
Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11263
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:01 pm: | |
I think you should have a huge vinyl graphic made for the back window of your Yaris of the old Atari character, Yar's Revenge. lol
|
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1351
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:26 pm: | |
the problem with the yaris is that by the time you load it up with features that you like you are close in price range to a four banger like the fusion (great car), malibu (sub-par), G6 (par), or the new offerings from Dodge.
Yeah, but the gas mileage is significantly worse (in my estimation) in the US vehicles, certainly not good enough for me. Yaris gets the best mpg by far. And a loaded Yaris hatchback comes to about $15,600 -- that's still much less than a stripped Fusion, Malibu or G6 (all of those vehicles run about $18K in base versions).
A couple of thousand dollars' difference is a LOT to those of us who are shopping in the compact price bracket.
the interior materials in that car are cheaper than those found in the aveo, which by all means is an embarasment.
Not true. I looked at both; test-drove the Yaris (no point in test-driving the Aveo, once I saw how poor the gas mileage is). Aveo feels and looks cheap inside, it's a tin can. Yaris' doors close with authority, and the interior is fairly nice for its price bracket, IMO.
if you wanted a car that size you should have checked out the honda fit, not my cup of tea but its getting the usually rave honda reviews.
I did consider the Honda Fit. I passed on it because it's getting a massive restyle in a year and a half, therefore making this "new" '07 version a lame duck. I also don't like the fact that the Fit's gas tank is directly below the front seats. Finally, and least important, the styling on the Fit appeals to me less than that of the Yaris.
A loaded Yaris is priced right in Fit Sport territory ($15,700), so it comes down to preference. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2487
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:40 pm: | |
quote:Dnvn522, how about comparing the compacts? That's the niche that attracts the people who are concerned about fuel economy.
And in that segment, a difference of three or four mpg is a big deal. 3-4 MPG is only a 10% difference in in fuel use in that segment. That's "a big deal"? That's like 2 MPG in the truck or regular car segment. Big deal? Not to most.
If you drive 15,000 miles per year, the difference between 35 MPG and 32 MPG is ony 40 gallons/year. $85 a year. Your insurance cost difference between the two models may be several times as large.
Efficiency is great but an $85/year difference on a $15,000 purchase isn't very significant.
quote:Why is it that in the year 2007 a domestic automaker cannot produce a car that gets 30 mpg in the city? Have the Ford/GM/DCX engineers been sleeping on the job? Really, they've had all kinds of time to design cars that get 35, even 40 mpg in city traffic.
Behind the times. Geo Sprint (with a 1.0 liter, 3-cylinder engine). Ford Festiva. They've been making high MPG cars for a couple decades. The problem is very few people want to buy them. Throw in the hybrids and even today, after $3/gallon gas, the very high mileage cars only have 2 or 3% market share between them. The Prius even has incentives on it now. Don't blame the car companies for responding to a small market segment with a small number of offerings. Especially when the marginal profit on a luxury SUV is more than the MRSP of a Yaris/Fit/Aveo. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:46 pm: | |
If you drive 15,000 miles per year, the difference between 35 MPG and 32 MPG is ony 40 gallons/year. $85 a year.
You're figuring gas at a cost of $2.13 a gallon?
Gas will be $3 per gallon this summer and $4 per gallon in a year or 18 months. Bet on it. |
Mike
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 849
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 12:21 am: | |
fury, looks like you made a good decision. i am sure it will work out for you. mabrook |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 1682
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 12:53 am: | |
"Gas will be $3 per gallon this summer and $4 per gallon in a year or 18 months. Bet on it."
and E85 will be? It's already been lower than standard gasoline at one station I drive by every morning. |
Mike
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 850
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 1:24 am: | |
e85 offers less MPG |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 5:34 pm: | |
Big heavy car = poor mileage
Small light car = good mileage
Helping our economy = priceless |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 2542
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:05 pm: | |
Fuel produced from American coal is probably better than any feasible alternative right now.
Ethanol's price has to be 72% of the gasoline price in order to be cost equivalent to the consumer. That's not likely without imposing stiff subsidies, which we as taxpayers will all have to pay in addition to other taxes in the end. There's no free lunch in this arena--except for a very limited few. |
Mckrackin
Member
Username: Mckrackin
Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 1:36 am: | |
Some thoughts:
The country has shown they are more than willing to buy foreign cars, why? You have to look a little deeper than just which cars are better, all of the major auto companies have their stinkers and their winners, so why, if the cars are of the same quality and price would americans choose to buy the foreign cars? Perception, marketing, and all around better management. Do the foreign car companies make better cars, not necessarily, but they apparently make better managers, CEOs, decision makers, marketers etc. Because they are kicking the living shit out of the big three in terms of running their business. Here's another thought, I haven't seen recent stats, but the last I saw the big three employed, indirectly, a bit over 4 million workers, as opposed to a bit under a mil for the foreign car companies. What do you say to those mil? Fuck you, Mcdonalds is hiring? Detroiters in the auto field, here's your wake up call, foreign car companies are NEVER going away, in the mean time the big three announce new layoffs every quarter, while happily shipping jobs over seas. Scared about your job? You should be, and you should be praying that Toyota opens a plant here to create more jobs, because it may be your only a hope a few years, months, or weeks down the road. The big three has refused, in there extreme arrogance, to acknowledge trends that have been obvious to the foreign car companies. |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 133
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 9:08 am: | |
Arrogance?
What a complete load of crap.
While the big three were getting kicked around funding so many social and structure programs in this nation, the Toyotas and Nissans of the world were looking at how they could get a chunk of the cash being generated.
And now they want a chunk of the truck market and to get it they have sucked huge tax breaks out of southern states to have assembly plants built. You see nothing wrong with that? Yeah you and everybody else bought them truck plants, and guess what, what legacy do they have that justifies giving them anything? Only their ability to grease political power.
What the big three is going through is more to do with the total incompetence of elected officials than the talent at the manufacturers. Look at Michigan at all levels of government to see what screwed up "leaders" are all about. And then look at who is succeeding in other countries but don't look at the president of Kia / Hyundai, he's going to prison where he will continue to run the corporation while Georgia builds and gives him an assembly plant. No bullshit. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2148
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 5:43 pm: | |
It is obvious you are fundamentally unable to have any perspective Angrydad.I understand that.But the Toyotas and Nissans and Hondas all the rest of em are here to stay.And not only to stay but to kick our asses whichs seems to be what they are doing.
Hopefully things will turn around for our auto makers.But I promise you it won't be using the mentality you have; that serves no useful purpose.
As for your constant bashing and accusing us of "building" the plants for the Japanese thru tax breaks.............tax breaks are the name of the game these days.I am sure we could find some tax breaks around here......Pfizer comes to mind.Don't get pissed because they(japanese)are playing the game. |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 134
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 7:28 pm: | |
When you are losing an argument, attack the person that is proving you wrong.
Yes we are building plants for the pirates from Asia. Even you admit it. Do overseas corporations deserve or are they entitled to those breaks?
Well do yourself a favor, go search the the current Bloomberg international interest rate schedules. You will find that Japan sponsors their rates to the tune of one half percent. Though you don't want to see it, these guys are screwing with economic factors that will eventually bite you too but if you think that it's all for the good you are sadly wrong.
It's not bashing, it's the truth.
If the Japanese are so great, why won't they let GM and Ford build plants in their country with tax breaks and supported interest rates? Guess your support of these pirates just evaporated.
Or of course your response will go in some other direction. |
Auspower
Member
Username: Auspower
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:09 pm: | |
Yeah Angry-dad, I agree with you, screw the asian companies, let em go to Ohio, that'll show em. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2151
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:38 pm: | |
For a long time (too long) the Japanese built a better car. If that had not happened then none of your griping about things would be happening either angrydad.
It is not that I support or don't support the U.S or the Japanese or anyone else.The fact is the U.S. car makers have had major quality issues along with many other issues in the manufacturing that has hurt them.
The won't let the U.S co's build there so we move on.It aint a matter of fair it is just the way it is. But somehow in my limited opinion it all really comes down to the lack of quality for too long in U.S cars turned people away. |
Sticks
Member
Username: Sticks
Post Number: 209
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
If only you all were as passionate about something that mattered - like the well being of society - as you were about pieces of metal that get you from point A to point B. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:16 pm: | |
Sticks, in Detroit the two have gone hand in hand for generations.
It was domestic auto manufacturing jobs that created the American middle class. |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 135
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 12:13 am: | |
"Quality" is a smokescreen.
Ask people about the Hondas of the seventies that couldn't go 50k without a valve job or Toyotas that rusted apart while still being paid for.
The Japanese have built a better way to sell a fool an equal car.
And they had to stack the deck to do it.
And here's the kicker, nobody wants to touch the economic tricks they used to create this situation. C'mon Citylover, justify and explain why any nation that flat out lies about currency values (and yes the funky interest rates are proof and even you know it) can be trusted to do business with?
The problem isn't totally the car companies, we and that includes you are being screwed by a government that will do anything to support a government. They no longer care about what's the best for a country instead just care about getting a vote. And that's not how the competition is working.
And as far as social issues go, somebody find an organization that did more to advance social issues than the UAW. You won't.
Is it any wonder that the gap between the rich and the poor has grown at the same time as the decline of union political power? Are you sure that "Oh what a feeling" is worth it? While not perfect the unions kept the fucking you see others getting now in check. You cannot deny that. And is it any wonder the strength of other nations that are exploiting this nation's market is related to the home country's union power. The UAW has nothing on the Japanese auto worker's union. Look what they have gotten for their nation as a whole. Like the crap you dream of. And we get to pay for it. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 4494
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 12:22 am: | |
Simply put, the Japanese car companies are kicking our collective behinds. So rather than bitch & moan about it, why don't we do what is inherently (in my humble opinion) the best thing that America does well? Why don't we innovate? Why don't we come up with a new strategy? A new car? A new fuel? A new widget that the competitors can't touch yet?
Bluntly- with as much technical & economic strength as we still have, why haven't the car companies come up with something that's considered cutting edge that consumers can gravitate to. I'm not saying that there aren't wonderful things like the concept cars & innovative things out there, but they aren't within reach of the mass market.
America as a whole needs to be innovative again. We need to lead once more as opposed to letting other people take our ideas and perfect them. |
14509glenfield
Member
Username: 14509glenfield
Post Number: 348
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 9:16 am: | |
How would Henry Ford address thread? |
Mike
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 854
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 9:41 am: | |
CL... the Japanese auto makers only started to recently make a better car (10-15 years)
The preception has been heavily distorted. They were not of better quality (in the begining) and they did not have better features.
They were smart though, they used small, cheap cars as a steping stone in this country, and with very cleaver marketing their preception of quality brands continued to grow. With the lead they gained, they were able to afford to put in money into their cars that the BIG 3 simply could not afford (most of the blame should still rest on the shoulders of the BIG 3).
Go into a Toyota Avalon or a Lexus... the amount of content and high quality materials in these cars surpasses anything from Europe or America.
How can they afford to put all of this into these cars and still make record profits? |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 136
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
"How can they afford to put all of this into these cars and still make record profits?"
http://www.bloomberg.com/marke ts/rates/japan.html
http://www.mises.org/freemarke t_detail.asp?control=30&sortor der=articledate
Can somebody explain without distortion why it "makes sense" to subsidize new business that clearly does not and never will contribute at the levels of existing business? The legacies of GM and Ford go far beyond the costs of retirees. Like it or not, they are owed for what social and structure they have built over the last century.
Asian producers have absolutely no desire or concern for supporting any social or structure programs in the United States. They see a market to exploit and we have politicians that have no desire to defend. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 1:14 pm: | |
Here's why our politicians seem so hell-bent on selling out our manufacturing. This story and countless others. The real question is: Who is working for whom?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb /congress/jan-june98/china_5-1 9.html |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 1692
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 6:29 pm: | |
"Simply put, the Japanese car companies are kicking our collective behinds."
GM outperforms Toyota in every market worldwide except the US and Japan |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 8:33 pm: | |
For some odd reason I feel like a backlash against Japanese cars is coming. I believe last year there were more Toyota recalls than GM or Ford.
We shall overcome |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 1695
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 12:13 am: | |
Daytona 500 Race Results
Toyota performance for this their first year: four started the race, led zero laps, only one finished on the lead lap placing 23rd
POS DRIVER CAR MAKE LAPS START LEAD
1 Kevin Harvick 29 Chevrolet 202 34 4
2 Mark Martin 01 Chevrolet 202 26 26
3 Jeff Burton 31 Chevrolet 202 7 0
4 Mike Wallace 09 Chevrolet 202 22 0
5 David Ragan 6 Ford 202 35 0
6 Elliott Sadler 19 Dodge 202 30 0
7 Kasey Kahne 9 Dodge 202 28 0
8 David Gilliland 38 Ford 202 1 18
9 Joe Nemechek 13 Chevrolet 202 18 0
10 David Stremme 40 Dodge 202 6 0
11 J.J. Yeley 18 Chevrolet 202 12 0
12 Jeff Gordon 24 Chevrolet 202 42 0
13 Reed Sorenson 41 Dodge 202 33 0
14 Robby Gordon 7 Ford 202 39 0
15 Johnny Sauter 70 Chevrolet 202 41 0
16 Sterling Marlin 14 Chevrolet 202 38 0
17 Boris Said 60 Ford 202 23 0
18 Clint Bowyer 07 Chevrolet 202 11 0
19 Juan Pablo Montoya 42 Dodge 202 36 0
20 Bobby Labonte 43 Dodge 202 27 0
21 Casey Mears 25 Chevrolet 202 17 0
22 Carl Edwards 99 Ford 202 14 0
23 Dale Jarrett 44 Toyota 202 43 0
24 Kyle Busch 5 Chevrolet 202 8 4
25 Greg Biffle 16 Ford 202 25 0
26 Ricky Rudd 88 Ford 202 2 0
27 Matt Kenseth 17 Ford 202 10 6
28 Denny Hamlin 11 Chevrolet 201 9 0
29 Martin Truex Jr. 1 Chevrolet 200 13 13
30 Michael Waltrip 55 Toyota 200 15 0
31 Jamie McMurray 26 Ford 195 24 0
32 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 8 Chevrolet 195 5 0
33 Tony Raines 96 Chevrolet 195 20 0
34 Dave Blaney 22 Toyota 186 37 0
35 Ken Schrader 21 Ford 185 19 0
36 Jeff Green 66 Chevrolet 181 31 0
37 Scott Riggs 10 Dodge 179 32 0
38 Ryan Newman 12 Dodge 175 16 1
39 Jimmie Johnson 48 Chevrolet 173 21 0
40 David Reutimann 00 Toyota 173 40 0
41 Kurt Busch 2 Dodge 166 4 95
42 Kyle Petty 45 Dodge 160 29 0
43 Tony Stewart 20 Chevrolet 152 3 35 |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 4504
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 1:01 am: | |
If "GM outperforms Toyota in every market worldwide except the US and Japan" then what are we screaming about?
Is it because Toyota is creeping up in market share and GM's is in decline? And could someone define "outperform"? Are we talking sales numbers, horsepower, or what here?
And pardon me for being a novice on this but on one hand I hear and see the American carmaker screaming up and down about the Japanese carmakers and then I hear that GM is outperforming Toyota nearly worldwide. Is the picture really rosier than people make it out to be or is it worse?? |
Mike
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 855
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 2:16 am: | |
thanks for answering the question angry dad.
if what car-guys know about toyota started to hit the media, then the golden child of the auto business would be in deep trouble. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2156
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 7:38 am: | |
Forget it smogboy.The head in the sand crowd refuses you will notice to give any responsibility to the domestic for their current plight.
Never mind the facts.The fact that Honda and Toyota are making money hand over fist.Never mind Toyota may take over from G.M. as worlds largest car maker.Never mind that both Honda and Toyota have great reps; something the homeboys are still trying to establish.Never mind al of it.Because, and this is the real shit, the U.S cars are much much better than any other and all you gotta do is look around you and see how great things are. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1357
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 9:21 am: | |
Funny how people keep dragging social, political, and patriotism issues into the mix.
All I want is a non-hybrid car that sells for $18K or less, gets 30-40 mpg, and is built to last awhile without falling apart -- that's it. I don't care WHO makes it.
Right now, the Big 3 don't make such a car. The US automakers are not very good at anticipating market trends, and if they don't get better at that, they'll die.
Too bad, so sad, but history is littered with names like Studebaker, Nash, Packard, Hudson, etc. Ford and Chevy could be next. |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 137
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 10:24 am: | |
The Detroit automakers unlike Toyota are not a national subsidy.
Free trade is not a one way "sell your crap" to America to fund your domestic programs, or it's not supposed to be.
That one line about "doesn't fall apart", considering Toyota recalled more cars than they sold last year, so what are you going to buy? |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1728
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
What? The automakers have never benefited from unfair US trade practices or assistance. I bet historians would love to hear that one, as would the rest of the world. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
"...what are you going to buy?"
Certainly not an American car. Every one that I've owned had problems.
The workers need to get off their asses and learn to build them better. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1729
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
quote:It was domestic auto manufacturing jobs that created the American middle class.
That is pretty funny, actually it was the US Government that created the American Middle Class way before the automobile was even envisioned. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 646
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 2:45 pm: | |
Despite all the merger hoopla Chrysler is still considering having Chery motors build them a low cost car. Interesting enough though DCX nixed the first proposal because the quality wasn't up too snuff. Nice to know that not everything coming out of asia is a product of superior quality (Tongue is in Cheek now). Seems as though the Chinese still have something to learn from the Japanese.
From Auto beat daily:
CHRYSLER RETHINKS WHICH CAR IT WANTS CHERY
TO BUILD. In December the idea was that China’s Chery Automobile Co. would modify one of its own subcompact models to be sold in the U.S. and Europe late next year under Chrysler Group’s Dodge brand. But concerns about quality have prompted Chrysler to reconsider that plan, reports Automotive News. It says the company may instead have Chery build a production version of the slightly larger Dodge Hornet concept car that Chrysler unveiled at the Geneva auto show last year. Chrysler now believes that building the Hornet on one of its own platforms—and overseeing the selection of Chinese suppliers for the program—would alleviate the fears about achieving world-class quality, AN says. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 1741
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 10:26 am: | |
Toyota to build new plant in Mississippi
to build what? SUVs!
American consumers really are that stupid(hypocritical) |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 32
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
Lilpup,
Part of the problem is some of the 20-somethings in this country feel uneducated riding around in the same brand of car their parents drive. They think it makes them look "worldly" and "informed" to drive a rice burner.
Their parents understand the importance of supporting the american auto ind.
I don't know where they are getting this "foreign cars are better" BS from. 20+ years ago, everyone built junk. Presently, everyone builds a good car. They've had a hundred years to get the same design right.
It's time for the US to innovate and be the leader instead of defending a century old design and market-share.
Someone mentioned Henry Ford and how would he address this or that. He'd probably laugh knowing that we are still driving the same type of vehicle that he had a large hand in developing. He'd also be disappointed I'd think. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 762
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:31 pm: | |
HAW HAW HAW!!!!!!
TOYOTA SLAPS REBATES ON NEW TUNDRA. Toyota
Motor Corp. is offering discounts of as much as $1,000 on single-cab versions of the revamped Tundra pickup truck launched last month. Some dealers are kicking in their own cash to sweeten the rebate to $1,500, The Wall Street Journal reports. Dealers tell the newspaper that basic Tundra trucks aimed at contractors and plumbers—a segment hit hard by the housing slowdown—are loaded with too many features to be affordable to work-truck buyers. And higher gasoline prices are hurting pickup sales in general. The Journal says senior Toyota executives in Japan worry that the Tundra may miss this year’s sales goal of
200,000 units—a 60% increase over the previous model. The just-opened assembly plant in Texas brings Toyota’s U.S. capacity to more than 300,000 pickups per year. |
14509glenfield
Member
Username: 14509glenfield
Post Number: 488
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 3:58 pm: | |
If I need jockey shorts, I buy them w/o a whole lot of price comparison. Carpeting...I'll shop around. Food...ditto...Basically consumer goods..all included..bang/VALUE for the buck with availablity/history/reliaility /confidence next. Henry Ford put out a vehicle that he made available...transformed manufacturing....tweaked it making it affordable...all but put farriers on the back burner...all but said "get your motor runnin'". Run with the development Improve on it. Create your own legacy. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1750
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 4:36 pm: | |
quote:making it affordable
Something the big three has gotten away from becuase they have to subsidize their employee benefits and employee pricing schemes.
BTW, the Toast of Hockeytown was presented by AUDI.
People by KIAs not for quality but becuase they can not afford anything else.
Also, Toyota is cutting prices to reach a 60% increase in sales not the status quo. Don't get too excited over there.
(Message edited by _sj_ on March 12, 2007) |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 807
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
It looks like China has a lot to learn before they can be considered a threat.
HONDA LAUNCHES CHINA’S BIGGEST RECALL.
Honda Motor Co. is recalling about 528,000 vehicles made in China over the past four years by its venture with Guangzhou Automobile Corp.
It’s China’s largest automotive recall since the country implemented recall regulations in October 2004. Last year 22 OEMs recalled a total of 284,000 vehicles in China, according to government statistics. The Honda campaign involves some 420,000 Accord sedans and 70,000 Odyssey minivans with potentially leaky
power steering systems, plus 40,000 Accords, Odysseys and Fit subcompacts cars that may have damaged fuel pump relays. Two months ago Honda’s joint venture with China’s Dongfeng Motor Corp. recalled nearly 46,000 CR-V SUVs to fix faulty shock absorbers. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 831
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 2:00 pm: | |
The more I learn about this truck, the more it really sounds like Toyota was not as smart as they thought and maybe they oughta just stick to Camrys' and Priuses'.
TUNDRA MISSES TOP GRADE IN CRASH TESTS.
Toyota Motor Corp.’s revamped Tundra fullsize pickup truck earned four stars in head-on collision tests by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration—one star short of the
top rating earned by its Big Three rivals.
Analysts say the Tundra’s lower safety rating is an embarrassment to Toyota, which declared the truck its most important U.S. launch ever. Competitors are sure to highlight the Tundra’s weakness as they battle to defend their truck share. NHTSA’s latest crash tests also awarded four stars in frontal crashes to Nissan Motor Co.’s Frontier compact pickup and Isuzu Motors Ltd.’s I-290 compact pickup. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 2:15 pm: | |
Whoa that's a lot of rice eaters that'll be stopping short on the expressway. Remind me not to tailgate any Accords or Odysseys... |
Cushkid
Member
Username: Cushkid
Post Number: 72
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 2:18 pm: | |
Thought you might want to know this.
Explaining the Tundra ads. I would guess all of you have seen the stupid ad where the Tundra pulls a trailer up a steep grade (a 'see-saw'), and then barrels down hill and locks the brakes up just before the end of the ramp. Seen it? Yeah you have.
Couple things to keep in mind. The voice at the beginning of the spot says...."It's tough pushing 10,000 lbs up a steep grade". Myth: Toyota would like the audience to believe the trailer is 10,000 lbs. Fact: It's a 5,000 lb truck pulling a 5,000 lb trailer. A little slight of hand? You bet.
Then, on the way down the grade, the camera zooms in on the brakes as the vehicles comes to a screeching halt just prior to the end of ramp. Next time you see the ad....look for the 'mice type' (small print). It indicates the trailer is equipped with electric brakes. Fact....the electric brakes stop the trailer -- not the truck. A little slight of hand? You bet.
And why does Toyota have bigger brake pads? They need them....their truck is heavy (5200lbs).
And don't forget....their big V8 has one axle ratio -- a 4.1. Suck fuel much? |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 834
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 2:53 pm: | |
I like the guy's voice on the ad, sounds like the Marlboro man speaking. Yeah right! paint the stars and stripes on the hood, and I'm sure you'll see the numbers of Ford, Chevy and Dodge Pick M Up Trucks parked outside the Honky Tonk being replaced by Toyota's and Nissans. Rednecks, the ones that actually use trucks as intended, know better! |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1248
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
Whoa, the L.A. Times slams the new Toyota Yaris:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070331/A UTO03/703310363 |
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