  Harmonie Member Username: Harmonie Post Number: 674 Registered: 08-2004 |
I was at the game last night (Go Wings! Zetterberg Rules!) and during one of the intermissions they brought a Toyota truck out onto the ice. The booing that ensued might have been the loudest the crowd got all night, and it didn't stop until the truck had made its loop and left the ice. Does anyone know if this was the first time Toyota advertised at a game like that? And if so, shouldn't they have anticipated the crowd's response? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9198 Registered: 10-2003 |
Just another reason why Toyota or any other money making car manufacturer isn't locating to the Detroit area. I guess there is nothing like hanging on to a sinking ship. The same people who boo'ed would take a job at any of those (Japanese or otherwise) assembly plants should they ever had be placed in Detroit. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2003 |
Right, car manufacturers don't locate to Detroit because they get boo'd at hockey games. THAT'S why. Here I thought it was all these complex economic and political reasons. So much simpler than that! | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 263 Registered: 11-2006 |
Same thing at the last Wings game I was at. Hilarious i thought | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2003 |
From the Boston Globe, 9-24-2006: "Foreign-based manufacturers like Toyota can identify models like the Camry as ``domestic" cars because they meet the government yardstick of having 75 percent or more of their parts made in the United States or Canada. But the Automobile Trade Policy Council, a lobbying group funded by GM, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler AG, says the domestic content of all Toyota vehicles sold in the United States -- including imported models -- is 48 percent. Honda's is 59 percent and Nissan's 45 percent. For GM and Ford, the domestic parts content is 73 percent, and for DaimlerChrysler, it's 72. Dennis Cuneo, executive vice president of Toyota North America, says that argument ignores the fact that Japanese manufacturers built more than 3.7 million vehicles in North America last year." | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9200 Registered: 10-2003 |
RE-read the post Johnlodge. It is ANOTHER reason why these manufacturers are not locating here. They are not being welcomed in any way yet they are leading the industry in which they are in. Why is that? T.O. and the surrounding areas are huge purchasers of the Japanese vehicles and they have been getting new auto plants while those who shun them get nothing. Coincidence? Hardly! (Message edited by GOAT on February 08, 2007) | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 1119 Registered: 03-2006 |
Terrell Owens? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11220 Registered: 10-2003 |
I find it hilarious! I've often said that the truck market is one of the most grassroots groups there are. Generations of family members have shown brand loyalty to trucks. The trucks the big three build right now are the best trucks they have ever built. Why would you switch from a product in which you are completely satisfied with? What did you expect, them to cheer on Toyota? Just because people would be willing to work for Toyota doesn't mean they would buy their product, that is one pathetic argument if I ever heard one. You work to support your living. My parents build products for the auto industry, neither one took into account what those products go into when they recently bought a new car. Toyota has built their reputation on quality, a quality that has seriously slipped these past few years as they've ramped up production. Their engine sludge problem is just the latest among their huge quality cover up. Personally, had I been there, I'd have been booing them as well. Since when is it not ok to boo something you don't like? As far as I'm concerned, Toyota is "the other team" if you live in this region. I don't see them sponsoring much or donating anywhere near the money the big three donates to the community. I'm surprised people didn't throw shit on the ice at it....give it a few games. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 901 Registered: 03-2006 |
Hilarious. The 80's are back. Lets start burning Toyotas in the streets now. lol. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 594 Registered: 08-2006 |
I agree if they want to bolster their image in MI they better build a factory here. Other wise take the flack. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2434 Registered: 10-2003 |
Why shouldn't the people at the Joe boo? For everyone of those Toyotas being sold, more of the people in the stands are losing their jobs. Mr. Ilitch's hockey team wouldn't be what it is today without the money generated from the Domestic automakers profits. Wings tickets wouldn't be in such high demand without those huge profits. Without those automotive profit sharing checks the Wings ticket prices wouldn't be near the level they are now. The domestic auto industry brings huge amounts of money from the rest of the country and deposits it in our pockets. Why shouldn't people boo something they see as a threat to their lifestyle. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 970 Registered: 12-2005 |
perhaps Toyota should buy the Wixom plant after it is shuttered by Ford and run it thier way (no UAW). It might not be far enough out in the country for Toyota though. | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 683 Registered: 10-2003 |
Exactly Ndavies and SSport! Until ANY foreign auto company invests in Southeast Michigan as much as the big 2.5 has, they will always be the other team. Bring on the boos, I think its great. I used to give a dirty look and the thumbs down sign to any foreign car driver in metro Detroit, but have since grown up a little and don't waste my time as I'd be doing that more than I would be focusing on the road. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 595 Registered: 08-2006 |
Sure, it's not a given that any auto plant that sets up shop here will be Union. Maybe they could set an example as fair employers with happy employees that feel they don't need a union to get mgt to listen to them. A little known fact, some of Toyotas plants are actually Union, the Cammi (sp?) plant and the Hino heavy truck plant both in CA. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1713 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Shouldn't they then be booing the Big 3. Toyota is not costing them there jobs, consumers are. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 950 Registered: 04-2006 |
Toyota should have waited until they had more of a presence in the local area prior to doing something like that. So far all we have received are promises to build a tech center south of Ann Arbor. I see nothing wrong with people showing loyalty to those who give them a paycheck. Toyota has not played nice with Detroit for a long time now, and does not butter people's bread in the same manner that Ford, GM, Chrysler, VW/Audi, Mazda, and countless other automotive supplies that employ workers around here. Is it provincial thinking? Of course it is, but be realistic. With thousands being laid-off around here, Toyota wanting to beat GM as the largest auto maker, and them not having a presence here even though nearly all other major players are here you expect cheers? | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 708 Registered: 01-2006 |
quote: Good point _sj_ It's not Toyota's fault that their business model is better then the Big 3. It's not Toyota's fault the Big 3 sales are down. It's not Toyota's fault the American public does not want to buy from the Big 3. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 725 Registered: 02-2006 |
Good timing for this article: ( here is just an excerpt ) Toyota sweats U.S. labor costs quote: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070208/BUS INESS01/702080429 | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1324 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hmmm, what doesn't the Big 3 deliver to consumers? Reliability, better fuel economy, and resale value. Gee, I think I'll go and buy a car from Ford, GM, or DCX because I want mediocre fit and finish, recurring quality control problems, and inferior gas mileage. Then to top it all off, I'll get a ridiculously low trade-in quote on it when I go to purchase my next vehicle. Wow... sure sounds great to me. So many reasons to buy American! | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 122 Registered: 10-2006 |
quote: Agreed. And how many of them went home after booing wearing clothes made in China that has put US clothing companies out of business. Where are their TV's or components for their iPods made? For decades US companies have been put out of business for inferior or costly products. Folks on the right preach about free trade and an open market, but as soon as it threatens their livelihood, their tune changes. (Message edited by dds on February 08, 2007) | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11221 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Or you could buy a Toyota and wonder when the engine is gonna blow up and leave you stranded. | ||
Paulc Member Username: Paulc Post Number: 86 Registered: 03-2005 |
What surprises me is the blind-allegience held by some of those on this forum to Toyota... let the hockey fans "boo." I agree with the assertion that the business model of the Big 2.5 is "broken" and has been for some time... however, the Big 2.5 now realizes this as well - albeit rather late in the game. Is there anything wrong with giving the U.S. automakers a chance to turn things around? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 163 Registered: 12-2006 |
I understand the frame of mind that would cause hockey fans to boo Toyota, but Toyota didn't cause Detroit's problems. GM, Ford and Chrysler failed to compete, and continue to fail to compete, in the US and global marketplace. Drive to other states and see how many of your fellow Americans are driving American-branded cars. Even those who prefer to drive cars built in America can drive a Toyota that was partly built here and not feel too guilty about it. Toyota and the others will not build auto plants in Michigan because they do not perceive Michigan as a good place to build cars. This does not bode well for our future; Toyota is on the upswing and will create jobs, including in America, but not here. Ford is choking on its bureaucracy and may not survive at all; GM and DC certainly won't be adding jobs any time soon. The booing at the game just indicates the fans are misdirecting their displeasure. The person who knocks on your door to tell you your son was killed in the war probably wasn't the killer. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1672 Registered: 06-2004 |
Wow, none of you guys watched channel 7's roundtable discussion did you? Or did you miss the part about how the Japanese and Korean markets are not open to western imports like the US market is open to their manufacturers? Or the part about how GM outperforms Toyota in every market worldwide EXCEPT the US and Japan? the video is still available http://web.wxyz.com/automotive townhall/ | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 709 Registered: 01-2006 |
quote: It may be to late. I don't believe the BIG 2 can change their business models fast enough, at least not with the current management. It's not like any of these failures are a surprise, the US automotive industry has been failing for the last 20 years. | ||
Paulc Member Username: Paulc Post Number: 87 Registered: 03-2005 |
I agree with you Mthouston, as to these failures not existing in a vacuum (i.e. decades of bad practice). I guess I was speaking more to the market end from a consumer perspective. To Professorscott's point, our region is fairly blinded / prejudiced to the fact that American car buyers have little brand loyalty to the Big 2/2.5 outside of Michigan. As seen on many threads here - perception is a big issue. What I fail to understand though in terms of the big picture is the message consumers are making / have made by abandoning American autos. 98% of a vehicle can be produced here... but the profits are still going elsewhere (Japan, Europe, etc.). The unbalanced trade factor Lilpup refers to is also part of the bigger picture. What is the long-term value in purchasing foreign vehicles and what long-term impact does that have on America's economy? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2003 |
I keep hearing about the US automakers creating poor quality product, yet the facts don't seem to back that claim up.  | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1202 Registered: 12-2003 |
Johnlodge, don't clutter up their minds with facts, they've already made up their minds. Fury, I'm disappointed in you. I didn't realize you were such a reactionary. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 952 Registered: 04-2006 |
John Lodge, one more reason to love my Mercury Sable! | ||
Iseries840 Member Username: Iseries840 Post Number: 339 Registered: 08-2005 |
Can we see a 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study? A 2006 model car is generally no older than 15 months. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9202 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sport, has being off work for a time melted your brain? Yes Toyouta has had a problme with SOME of their engines but not all. That is like saying because GM made the 2.4l (a real piece of shit engine)all GM engines are going to fail. This little ditty in your first post makes no sense at all! "Just because people would be willing to work for Toyota doesn't mean they would buy their product, that is one pathetic argument if I ever heard one." If you work for the company wouldn't it make sense to buy the product you make? You need to really get back into the swing of things. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ask and ye shall receive. (sorry to those with bad eyesight)  | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 597 Registered: 08-2006 |
The old 2.5 Liters were bullet proof, you'd be remiss to buy a Buick Century and take the 3.1 liter as the iron duke would get you way more miles with a lot fewer troubles. Sad to hear the newer GM 4 bangers are not as good. | ||
Iseries840 Member Username: Iseries840 Post Number: 340 Registered: 08-2005 |
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/u sed-car-ratings | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote:I didn't realize that all these GM products I've bought are "failures". Thanks for letting me know. I can't believe I've been happy with them all this time. (crazy me) | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1715 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Actually both of your graphs prove otherwise, considering that the Big 3 hover near the industry average and Toyota and Lexus hover near the top. quote: Here is there message, "I want sky high wages and benefits, but cheap goods." | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 127 Registered: 02-2006 |
Legendary reliability: http://www.oilgelsettlement.co m/ Even if there are three million Toyota engines out there that have problem they deny exists even though they are paying for it. And then there are the working conditions in their plants, they don't worry about retirement, their workers will just get killed on the job. Their safety records are best described as horrible. | ||
Blort Member Username: Blort Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2007 |
I would be too lazy and drunk to pay attention to a truck on the ice. It would have been funny if people started throwing things at the truck, and a brawl broke out. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 434 Registered: 12-2006 |
Comparing the Sequoia to the Yukon: Sequoia gets 15/18 MPG (City/Highway) Yukon gets 15/20 MPG Who says the Japanese have better fuel economy in everything (even though this isn't the greatest of comparisons). Good for the fans at the Joe. At least they show loyalty to our products. (That's my take on all of this.) | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2003 |
I hardly think you can expect a Wings fan with a couple beers in him hanging out with a few thousand Detroiters watching our best sports team to think to themselves "Well golly, maybe we shouldn't boo the Toyota. Maybe if we cheer it they'll build a factory near our city." | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 965 Registered: 10-2005 |
everything the boos, the booers, and many here represent and stand for is an unequivocal reason why this city is what it is. Let us go back to our "couple of beers", our fat bellies, our trucks (Made in S.E. Michigan and they better not build them elsewhere in the Union!!!!), and ....sorry, gotta go find out what really happened to Anna Nicole Smith. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes, we are the only ones in the country who drink beer, have bellies, drive trucks, and try to have some pride in the region we are from. And yeah, THAT'S the problem with the city. Please. I'm not some right-wing hillbilly, I'm probably more liberal than most people here. But if you go to Germany and drive your Ford Truck onto a soccer field, don't expect to get a roaring round of applause from the crowd. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 481 Registered: 09-2006 |
All I know is I am happy with my GM car made right here in Lansing and my parents have always been happy with their GM cars made mostly in the USA. So all of this "domestics cant compete with the Japs" nonsense holds no weight with me since I dont get caught up in the hype. There is no difference between a boring (current) Malibu and a boring Camry. At least you can get the former cheaper and you can take pride in knowing that what you bought was built right here in the US. "everything the boos, the booers, and many here represent and stand for is an unequivocal reason why this city is what it is." This city is a proud city with proud people who are loyal and I see no problem with that. The big 2.5 are improving slowly but surely just like the city they were born in is. So damn right Red Wings fans boo them and boo them good. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11226 Registered: 10-2003 |
Perhaps the people weren't booing Toyota themselves, but there recent poor quality product they have been building. Maybe the people booing had to fork over thousands of dollars for engine replacement in their "quality" Toyota. For those still trying to brush their quality issues under there rug, even Toyota admits their quality has fallen. http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070209/BUSINES S01/702090427 | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11227 Registered: 10-2003 |
Isn't this the kind of stuff Fury13 said is only a problem with domestic cars? quote: Wow, can't even blame these quality problems on the American assembly plants, as most were built and sold in Japan, where the quality standard is supposedly even higher. I wonder when our foreign competition will start losing their free pass when it comes to taking the heat for quality issues? How much longer can people like Fury13 continue to be brainwashed into buying their cars? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2117 Registered: 07-2004 |
How much longer can people like Fury13 continue to be brainwashed into buying their cars? Looks like their brains are gonna be sparkly shining clean.Have you checked Toyota and Honda sales figures lately? Whole lotta cleaning going on | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11229 Registered: 10-2003 |
Engine sludge-atcha! LMAO | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote:They weren't saying "boo"...they were saying "boo-urns" ;) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4007 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have NEVER seen a car company be defended by its buyers the way Toyota is. Especially in Detroit when it is almost sacrilege to buy one. Whenever you ask a local Toyota owner about their purchase they immediately go into some kind of bitter childish rant about how Detroit makes crap and yadda yadda yadda. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 605 Registered: 08-2006 |
How true, you ever go to a classic car show and see a 1972 Mitsubishi? Of course not! They make throw away cars. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1716 Registered: 12-2003 |
Maybe with an employee discount but a quick search on the internet does not show a cheaper Malibu brand to the Camry. quote: Perfect we are the throw away people.  (Message edited by _sj_ on February 09, 2007) | ||
Paulc Member Username: Paulc Post Number: 89 Registered: 03-2005 |
I am with you guys - I have never understood the draw, nor can fathom the sales power Toyota has with such fugly vehicles. Must be a "smug" thing - like the South Park episode which poked fun at the hybrids. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1717 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Price & perception always play a role. Now add into the fact that the price in the paper is also always the starting price. Unlike the Big three who promote low ass discount+employee+loyalty+mili tary+day of the week discount. | ||
Paulc Member Username: Paulc Post Number: 90 Registered: 03-2005 |
Price - perhaps, I never have priced a foreign vehicle. I am going through the motions of the "advertised" vs. "actual" sign-and-drive price for my upcoming domestic lease - so I see your point. But the perception is what I don't understand (e.g. Toyota / foreign vehicles are better quality - domestics suck, etc.). I just perceive them as plain and ugly - but I guess America disagrees with me. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2118 Registered: 07-2004 |
What I wonder is why is it all you guys are so ready to show your bigotry and ugliness toward the japanese car makers? Why is all this venom and anger not directed at the people buying the cars? People right here in Detroit for example are obviously buying japanese.............why ain't y'all making your remarks about them folks? Sport ya come off looking silly.Surely someone of your knowledge and experience can come up wtih something more intelligent than what you have so far. Honestly, do you think this approach would work if you were standing outside a toyota or honda showroom trying to convince someone to buy american you would persuade them based on the crap you post on this forum? People buy what they have good experiences with.The sales figures show that. Wear your sunglasses, there are some shiny as washed brains out there. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 184 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: I just did a quick Edmunds comparison, for an entry level V6.  | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1326 Registered: 10-2003 |
Fury, I'm disappointed in you. I didn't realize you were such a reactionary. How much longer can people like Fury13 continue to be brainwashed into buying their cars? I have never understood the draw, nor can fathom the sales power Toyota has with such fugly vehicles. Pffft and SS, I have never bought a Japanese (or any other foreign) make until now. But I am SICK and TIRED of putting up with crap. Door handles falling off, plastic trim cracking or warping, locks failing, rattling, squeaking, water pump failures with overheating engines, transmission failures, idiot lights going on for no reason, gauge malfunctions, mysterious electrical shorts, trim cover panels falling off, bolts and metal pieces coming loose and falling off, etc. etc. etc... I could go on and on. Keep in mind that I have been driving and buying cars for 30+ years. I have owned models made from 1948 to 2001. ALL were American-made and ALL had stupid, annoying, maddening little (and not so little) problems. Most of these cars had well under 100,000 miles on them (and yes, if a car can't run/drive well past 150,000 miles with normal maintenance, it's a POS). I'll say it again: I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH SUCH B.S. JUST TO SAY "I BOUGHT AMERICAN." I won't. No more. The definition of insanity is when you do something over and over again, even though the outcome is repeatedly unsuccessful. I'm ready to stop being insane. So I'm trying something different. It logically follows that I have gravitated to a brand that has consistently delivered good quality ratings and high consumer satisfaction, like Toyota. And... PaulC, styling is pretty irrelevant (although I will admit a preference for two-door vehicles). The main things that matter in this brave new world of $3-per-gallon gas are MPG and reliability/quality. When you get down to brass tacks, it doesn't matter much how a car is styled and/or how many seconds it takes to get from 0-60 mph. In the 21st century, a car should average at least close to 30 mpg and last well over 150,000 miles with mechanical and structural integrity. Folks, a car's primary purpose is to get you safely, economically, and reliably from Point A to Point B. A car's primary purpose is not to look good standing still or to chirp the tires while shifting into second gear. (By the way, automobiles that accomplish those types of things are called TOYS.) Frivolity aside, a car's main raison d'etre is to provide transportation within one's budget, and that's all. Quality and MPG are the key issues. And those are things that, in my experience, the US automakers have not done very well. (Message edited by Fury13 on February 09, 2007) | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 435 Registered: 12-2006 |
See my Sequoia vs Yukon post for MPG on US beating Japan. About your 150,000 miles, maybe you aren't buying correctly. My dad's 1997 Saturn (SL) got around 50 MPG in its heyday and has roughly 150,000 miles on it. That good enough for you? *Edited for model and year (Message edited by SCS100 on February 09, 2007) | ||
Awfavre Member Username: Awfavre Post Number: 98 Registered: 08-2005 |
My mama once told me you’re going to be paying an awful lot of money on a car for (usually) a long period of time. So get what you like, or making that monthly payment will be a bitter pill to swallow. If that means you’re tied to domestics, so be it. If you’re in love with a foreign badge. So be it. If you want a grocery-getter, get one. If you want something more stylish, get it. The point is, get a vehicle you like, that suits your needs, & that won’t cause you to gag each month when you write the loan check. For me, that was an ’04 Pontiac Vibe with a 5-speed manual. It’s a NUMMI product (joint GM & Toyota) that received rave reviews & got the gas mileage I wanted. I researched this vehicle exhaustively for a couple years before deciding to take the plunge. I looked at the Honda Civics, but my fat arse wouldn’t fit comfortably in the seats. Next on the list was a Scion tC for its looks, comfort, & value for the buck, but I found my used Vibe in excellent condition & for the right price, so that trumped the tC. In my heart of hearts, I wanted a Mini Cooper, but the price range I could afford (used) yielded not-so reliable model years. Bottom line, I used to be a domestics-only gal, but no longer. Now, considering vehicles cost so darn much, I will get the best car for my needs, & I refuse to be tied to one badge, maker, or vehicle. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 606 Registered: 08-2006 |
My old GF's 2003 Sentra with only 45k miles had a knack for not starting, would crank and crank, never catch. Dealer always acted like could never find the issue. In high school my buddy accidentally backed into his sister's Datsun 210 with his Pontiac at low speed and cracked the Datsun's transmission case. I suspect Fury will find out after few models the grass is not greener. He'll probably be like most japanese car owners are though that get amnesia about their own car's problems, or get blind and deaf when recalls of the japanese car makers are publicized. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11230 Registered: 10-2003 |
Fury, I hear what you are saying, but it makes little sense to me. Did you not see the fact that Honda had a recall for nearly 75,000 vehicles because of sliding DOOR LOCK failures? Did you read they recall of 45,000 Honda's due to an ELECTRICAL problem in which the engine could die? Did you not read about the settlement Toyota has due to engine sludge in which only now will they reimburse buyers for the replacement engines they paid for out of their pockets? How about the Toyota Tundra recall from last year in which there was a possibility that you could lose all control of steering while traveling down the road? How about the multiple recalls on the Prius shortly after launch? Your argument you make doesn't hold water, as proof shows that the foreign competitors are facing the same goddamn quality issues that you claim are only true to domestic cars. CL, As for you calling us American car maker supporters bigots, I feel the need to ask, why do you hate America so much? I have shown proof that the foreign competition has an apparent problem in recent years in which quality is declining. Why is it you seem to have nothing to say about Toyota covering up KNOWN problems with their vehicles for years? Problems that could have put lives at risk, simply because they were afraid of the bad press they would receive. Problems in which even AFTER they come to light people like you and Fury seem to ignore, as he points out a few of the exact same problems with domestics, but makes no mention of the same damn recalls by the foreign auto makers. Personally, I think the big 3 should pool up some money, buy a Civic or Camry, and let the fans beat it with a sledgehammer out on the ice. If for no other reason, just to piss you off. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1328 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'll tell you what, Cambrian: for years, I was "blind and deaf" to my own American-made cars' problems... I was in constant denial. I was a big booster of the US auto industry for decades. I said many times over the years that I would never, ever buy Japanese. But I finally got fed up. The killer was my last car, the Jeep. While it wasn't a bad car per se, it had just enough quality-control glitches to permanently piss me off. The unwavering 15 mpg was the kicker, as gas prices topped $3 per gallon (and I expect to see $4 per gallon in a year or two). (15 mpg! In the 21 century! Unbelievable! How many decades have American engineers had to work on fuel efficiency?) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1329 Registered: 10-2003 |
OK, SS... so what you're telling me is that ALL cars are f***ed up? Because I'd get the same kinds of problems in ANY car I'd buy? Hmmm... maybe I should stay away from cars altogether, then. Hey, I know... I'll just buy a new motorcycle and ride it during the summers, while taking the bus in the winter. (Message edited by Fury13 on February 09, 2007) | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11231 Registered: 10-2003 |
Fury, Yeah, if I were you, I'd simply stick to mass transit in this region. ps...PEOPLE WHO LOVE CARS LOVE CHEVY. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =Z_vnJaYHgAM | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 128 Registered: 02-2006 |
How do you feel about paying a subsidy to a manufacturer? You're doing it. Toyota and Nissan demanded (extorted is a better word) millions from southern states to build their truck plants. Now if they had paid billions in taxes and wanted relief that's one thing but via revenue sharing, they get a tax break courtesy those that built this place. Yes the GM and Ford workers get to pay taxes that are being used to put them out of work. Is it any wonder that some people have had enough of the fraud that imported cars and thier executives represent? Consider the head of Kia / Hyundai, he's been convicted of bribery yet he's going to run the business from prison. Georgia is building him a plant now. Yes when you buy something it carries baggage, scream about bigotry but make no mistake about it, the auto unions in this area gave more support to civil rights issues than any other political organization. If anything, there are many people that refuse to buy American vehicles because they are bigoted against who they perceive to be assembling them. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11233 Registered: 10-2003 |
Make no mistake, CL hates Americans, though not as much as he hates Detroiters. | ||
Lt_tom Member Username: Lt_tom Post Number: 133 Registered: 06-2004 |
Check out this: this guy owns America's largest Toyota dealership AND Lexus dealership out here in California. On top of that he sells Hondas and Mercedes at the same place! Could be a big-time Detroit hater. http://www.penskeautomotive.co m/en_US/ | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4015 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mopar lives! | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2120 Registered: 07-2004 |
Love it Lt. Tom! Of course he is a Detroit hater.........how could he not be? An analogy: I recently watched a documentary on the great Ali-Foreman fight in Zaire circa 1975. Foreman was commenting in the documentary about Ali saying to him ..."is that all you got George? is that it? you can't hit no harder ?".... and Foreman in the documentary said he thought to himself at the time ....yep, that is about all I got..... I asked sport if this is the best he can come up with in regards to his intractable bashing of japanese cars.........I think I have my answer ; this is his best. As for my not commenting on problems of Japanese cars why do I need to? No one including me is saying they are faultless.What you boneheads refuse to do is acknowledge Fury and his practical, concrete reason for buying foreign.........that is the sentiment of millions.The sales figures show that. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6168 Registered: 09-2005 |
Very interesting thread. The most interesting class in my university years was an advertising/marketing class that I took in the evening at UM. It was taught by the head of advertising for Chevrolet (by day) He was a dead ringer for Lon Chaney (sp?) in looks, demeanor and voice. He mesmerized the class with tales of past and present failures & successes in the auto industry. Somehow I see someone like him telling a class in the future one of 2 stories: 1. "Toyota decided to take Detroit's temperature in a very public place by doing a little commercial for one of our trucks at a Detroit hockey game. It was a simple enough effort, but we were stunned by the reaction - sort of a 'natives with pitchforks & torches'. We always reflected on that reaction whenever the thought of locating anything significant in the Detroit area arose in discussion, and it ended up being a rather glaring reason, reasonable or not, that we retrenched in other more welcoming places." Or 2. "At a time when we couldn't build cars fast enough, we came to the conclusion that, as uncomfortable as it would be, we needed to have a more significant presence in Michigan. Knowlege of the auto industry, access to great universities, plenty of human & natural resources. As a precursor to our announcement, we did a little diddy thing, driving a Toyota around on the ice at a Detroit hockey game. While the boos were not totally unexpected, the next day we all rec'd a 'mandatory meeting' notice from Griswold Turkeyneck, chief poobah of Toyota's North American Operations. Even though all systems were 'go' to roll out in Michigan, Turkeyneck was so incensed at the reaction (we'd hired him from GM in the 90's and he had worked/lived in the region for the first 1/2 of his career) that, at great cost Toyota - who cared? Toyota was awash in billions to spend on such whims - and in a matter of weeks, the entire Michigan project was scrapped. Michigan never fully realized what had slipped through their fingers that fateful night." While consumers love looks, the posts above about wanting a car/truck that is widely recognized as being able to go 150,000 miles without any problems - and then be worth more than scrap - are becoming part of the car-buying public's checklist when they go shopping. The Big 3 should have swatted the Japanese auto industry when it was a buzzing few flies. Now they're killer bees and they're everywhere. Re dealers who "hate Detroit" ya better wise up: Car dealers have a strange way of doing (more quickly than the Big 3) things that make even more money. There are more than a few dealers who play both sides of the street and a few other streets also, using their management skills to sell both foreign and domestic makes - and some have even delved into ancillary markets - add-on, RV's, ATV's, boats, whatever Americans are spending their money on. Until the Big 3 can respond more quickly than Toyota, car dealers and the American public to trends in their industry, they will continue to lose market share. And if Detroiters want new manufacturing/jobs in or near Detroit for any particular product, it is probably best not to "boo" them when they show up. "If you keep on doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you've got." | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2003 |
I went to school with Griswold Turkeyneck. That dog could shoot some hoops, yo. Even back then he dreamed of being chief poobah. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 607 Registered: 08-2006 |
Interesting perspective Karl, but we all know corps make decisions based on money, not on sentiment. I'm sure those communities down south would have preferred American companies building factories in thier counties, but once smoothed over they embraced them with open arms. | ||
Lt_tom Member Username: Lt_tom Post Number: 134 Registered: 06-2004 |
Booing or no booing, Toyota is here to stay. They are going to expand their operations at the Toyota Technical Center whether Red Wing fans like it or not. However, when it comes to a manufacturing facility in the Detroit area, I wouldnt hold my breath. Such a move into Detroit would probably be given a negative spin as a symbol of the big 3's decline, and possibly create a negative backlash in the public against Toyota. This is what the Toyota chiefs in Japan and Torrance are trying to avoid at all costs. They are posting billions in profit and are slowly gaining market share every year. Their market cap is $233B. Why rock the boat now? | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 643 Registered: 08-2005 |
This shit goes both ways folks. While everyone here is giving the finger to Honda and Toyota, the rest of the country is giving the finger to Ford and GM. Toyota's market share continues to grow, they actually MAKE A PROFIT as opposed to Ford which is billions in the red. So I hope Ford and GM can keep themselves afloat on the loyal SE Michigan market, because they aren't doing so hot in most others. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 844 Registered: 06-2004 |
I drive a ford and would never buy a foreign car. You have to be nuts to live in Detroit and not grasp the economic necessity of buying Chrysler, Ford or GM. That said, the people at the Hockey game should be strung up by their balls. This region desperately needs investment by Toyota and (soon) China. They should be cheering wildly for Toyota. Of course the Japanese shy away from Michigan because of the perceived antipathy. Don't you guys remember the Vincent Chin case? These bastards at the Wings game will be unemployed in five years and wondering what the hell hit them. Idiots. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5507 Registered: 02-2004 |
YAY!!!! That's showing your American spirit. Foreign cars shouldn't be on the ice in all NHL Hockey areas especially Toyota. American made cars should be promoted in every American sports to show that " MADE IN THE U.S.A." pride to the masses. | ||
Gene Member Username: Gene Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 |
Why do they boo Toyota and not all the foreign players on the Red Wings? Lets start a draft American kids campaign in the NHL. How about a boycott? Saw Stevie a few years ago at Oakland Hills getting out of a silver Porsche.(Not American) (Message edited by gene on February 11, 2007) | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11237 Registered: 10-2003 |
Unbelievable that he same people who think it's stupid to boo Toyota feel it's ok to slam the American auto makers time after time. I enjoyed two nights of Winter Blast this year, didn't see a single sign the showed Toyota sponsorship of the event. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 1129 Registered: 03-2006 |
I hope none of those fans shop at Wal-Mart or they are all hypocrites (Message edited by chi-taku on February 11, 2007) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6178 Registered: 09-2005 |
It would appear that the overused word "hypocrite" would fit everyone at some time, especially in the ever-judgmental eyes of certain others. However, giving Chitaku the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure every single item in his/her home is "Made in the USA" Uh huh. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 1132 Registered: 03-2006 |
i have foreign made things, i also didn't boo toyota good job trying to start an argument, must be a boring morning out in the desert (Message edited by chi-taku on February 11, 2007) | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 958 Registered: 11-2003 |
Latest Consumer Reports puts the Ford Fusion ahead of the Toyotal Camry and Honda Accord. And the Ford Edge just got highest marks for safety. The "quality" comments belong in the last century. I agree with Supersport... I dont want to drive a Toyota (who recalled more vehicles in 2006 than they built) and risk having the engine blow up randomly. | ||
Gene Member Username: Gene Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2006 |
If you dont like foreign cars dont buy them. Remember the days when UAW workers took a sledge hammer to a foreign car for the local media? I miss the good old days. | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 395 Registered: 03-2005 |
I say let em boo. If I was there I'd be booing my lungs out as well. To me Toyota represents more than a Japanese company doing very well, it represents the mindsets of the people who think their import's shit doesn't stink. Many who could care less if the big 2.5 and Detroit were to buy the farm altogether. I'm mainly talking about those smug people out west who think anyone living outside of California is a lesser form of life. Believe me I used to be one before I ended up making Michigan my adoptive home 12 years ago. It's not that I hate Toyota or Honda, I guess I don't like the kind of people who solely laud them. Simply my perception and opinion. D | ||
Gene Member Username: Gene Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2006 |
Detroit's past,streets and web sites are littered with auto companys (history?) that didnt make it. See all the nostalgic posts elsewhere on this site. Is history repeating its self with whats left of the big 2.5? Produce a product the people want and they will flock to the showrooms. Todays paper had a good example of how the big 2.5 have abandoned Detroit, with all of the styling studios on the left coast. (Message edited by gene on February 11, 2007) | ||
Blort Member Username: Blort Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2007 |
I use a car to get places. As long as it gets me there, I could care less what brand it is. Right now I happen to drive a Ford. It was the best car at the best price available at the time. If a better car was available and happened to be a Toyota, I would have bought that car instead. I agree that those fans should have also been booing the foreign players on the Red Wings. After all, those are jobs that could be going to American born players instead...... | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 626 Registered: 08-2006 |
Japan will not allow our companies to build plants in their country, another reason they deserve the booing. | ||
Blort Member Username: Blort Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2007 |
Why do they deserve the booing? They are simply building plants where they are allowed (not to mention creating jobs). If anything, the United States should be booed for allowing Japan to build factories in our country. Also maybe the big 3 should also be booed for building plants anywhere else in the world that's NOT the United Stated. Why are their GM plants in Mexico? Mexico isn't the United States. Why aren't those plants here instead? It could go either way. Lets just boo everyone (including the Red Wings for getting blown out by the worst NHL team the other night!). | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 184 Registered: 08-2006 |
What I don't get is everyone was swearing this truck was the deathnail for the big 2.5. It's not that competitive at all. The base price is being raised a couple thousand because of cost overuns at the assmbly plant. The styling is not that great. As far as performance it only beats the domestics by a margin and they only offer a 1/2 ton for now. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4034 Registered: 10-2003 |
With the Dems on power Toyota will be afraid in many ways. They have LOTS of Repub influence but when Bush leaves, their DC power will diminish quite a bit. http://manufacturing.net/artic le/CA6416030.html “A Democratic Congress, particularly those members with districts hit by Big 3 and supplier plant closings, may call for further oversight of the industry and Japanese companies in particular,” | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1720 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great more illegal oversight and tariffs. Didn't they learn the first time around. In all reality I wonder who is really the trade bully, looking to the rest of the World I would say it is the US who have finally removed an illegal amendment. Complain about that, a lot of the so-called hate for Japan's strategy is a judgement against the US for the Byrd Amendment. quote: You make this claim in every car thread but have yet to show proof when this is constantly rebuffed and only customer opinion not a Consumer Report backed score. quote: While they continue to price their cars out of the market and then bitch that no one wants to buy them. Eliminate the employee subsidies and watch how many UAW & Union employees purchase non Big 3 cars because they can not afford it. No more Jeeps and Rams for $70 a month. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 130 Registered: 02-2006 |
Who cares what Consumers Reports writes, they can't test kid car seats without screwing that up. They have no credibilty, problem is this country no longer has any desire to think for itself or about anybody else. BTW, the imports cost more and then they extort huge tax breaks out of non union states to subsidize assembly plants there. | ||
Auspower Member Username: Auspower Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2007 |
It's funny how countries around the world welcome foreign investment as part of the global economy. It seems to be the way those economies are striving forward. If we want to keep pretending that free trade and the pressures of the foreign markets will go away then we are in for a rude shock. We need to welcome any and all investment in our economy. Jobs are jobs. Taxes are taxes. The fact that some of the profits may leave the country is just a small amount of what is generated when a person is hired and makes a living. The taxes they pay the money they spend at the supermarket, the ballparks, the restaurants all feeds back on itself. If an employee working for VW or Toyota or for Qantas airlines has a job they just might be able to afford to spend more and who knows maybe that will save GM and the others. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2007 |
I say let them boo also. It's good to see a group of folks that care about the country, the economy and their way of life. This "compete globally" phrase being replayed by the corporate spin doctors translates to "Allow us to keep inundating the american markets with cheap asian goods". We can't compete globally. They can't afford our products and much less afford their own over there. Anyone who thinks we can "compete globally" had better be prepared to live like the competition as well. It's high time our government start imposing tariffs on these goods just as we did with Japan. It's the only way of preserving our economy. China is 13 times as big of a problem as Japan was. People outside the Detroit area who feel the big 3 is Detroit's problem are very near-sighted and ill-informed. The automotive industry is woven all through North America. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1339 Registered: 10-2003 |
Folks, if the Big 3's PRODUCTS were better, their sales would go up. It's that simple. For instance (as I have stated before), I'm in the market for a fuel-efficient hatchback (and by that I mean that it must get at least 30 mpg in city driving... that's not too much to ask for a modern, 21st-century car) with good build quality. Now, I see that GM is going to start offering the Opel Astra as a Saturn in the US in 2008. That announcement interested me very much -- I mean, I was getting excited about possibly buying that car four or five years down the road -- until I read that it's expected to only return 27 mpg in the city and 34 mpg highway. That's pretty close to pathetic for that class of automobile, in this day and age. The Big 3 need to wise up. To paraphrase a tired saying, "build the right cars, and the customers will come." Toyota's sales simply reflect the demand of the marketplace, and makers like Toyota and Honda have anticipated market shifts better than the Big Three. That's smart business. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 845 Registered: 11-2003 |
as a american buyer i avoid toyota because of three things: 1. profits do not effect US causes 2. Unfair advantage of profits (yen vs. dollar) 3. Do not support Americans in the scope that US auto companies do (also, unfair bais that is not true, their preception is better than reality) I avoid Toyota as an auto junkie for many reasons, 1. Bland styling 2. Mother nagging features that hinder performance 3. Overated interior quality 4. Poor dealer service and support 5. Ungratful corportate ladder (sludge issue) | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 243 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have owned two cars and both were bought new and American made from the Big 3. I was working part time in the service industry making very little money. I can't afford to buy a car every few years. I spent a fortune on repairs. Everything you can imagine went wrong. All this while living in some tiny studio apartment broke even before the car repairs which I had put on a credit card. This was going on for me while American auto workers were raking it in in pay and benefits compared to what I had made and my friends that had used Hondas with a billion miles on them ran perfectly. I have read on and on about the plight of auto workers. What about the plight of millions of poor Americans who got stuck buying your crap. So while many in Detroit and saying this and that today about Americans who don't buy your cars. Too bad, you blew it. You have caused us a lot of hardship. There is a difference between Initial Quality Surveys and Long Term Quality Surveys. All surveys I see posted touting American made quality are of initial quality only. Still today Japanese cars are of superior quality. Just look at who is buying what, look at the ratings of LONG TERM quality, notice the feel of driving an import and the superior fit and finish. I will buy anything but American. I have wasted tens of thousands of dollars buying American and American auto companies are not getting one more cent from me. American cars cost me dearly and this while I was working poor. I don't own a car anymore anyway but someday I imagine I will again. You have screwed us over for decades on end and during this time the defense of American auto companies is the same. "We are of better quality." I bought this line twice. But it always turns out to be not true and no matter how vocal you are this is the same thing again. While many here go on what it is doing to the big 3, look at what the big 3 have done to me and tens of millions of other Americans. It is not like I blew a few hundred bucks on a bad computer. (Message edited by Philbert on February 13, 2007) (Message edited by Philbert on February 13, 2007) | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 452 Registered: 12-2006 |
Ok. Buy Toyota and the engine sludge then. | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2003 |
The height of arrogance. I should continue to buy your junk. Well unfortunetly for you the rest of America feels differently. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4040 Registered: 10-2003 |
Philbert, were you laid off or fired from one of the Big 3? | ||
Auspower Member Username: Auspower Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Sstashmoo" you and those like you are the reason Toyota may not invest in Michigan. They ARE going to build cars in this country whether you like it or not. Why not have them build them here where you live. Hold on, maybe you are not actually a Detroiter. Maybe you are from one of the other states competing for their business. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 959 Registered: 11-2003 |
SJ: The Zephyr's platform mates, the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan, also new for 2006, scored slightly better than V6 versions of the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry. http://autos.msn.com/advice/CR Art.aspx?contentid=4023544 This should be GOOD news for Detroiters, not something to attack, but to each his own. | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2003 |
Patrick, no. Nor I have ever been to Michigan or Detroit. Though I would love to visit Detroit. In case you are wondering why I am here. This is my first forum I signed up for. I do have a feeling I signed up way before 2003, though, but my join date says differently. I came across DetroitYes somehow while googling and have stuck with it. | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 398 Registered: 03-2005 |
Philbert, That is too bad about your American car issues. Many people, including myself, have not had the problems associated with our domestics that you have had. "You have screwed us over for decades on end and during this time the defense of American auto companies is the same. "We are of better quality." I bought this line twice. But it always turns out to be not true and no matter how vocal you are this is the same thing again. " Enough with the finger pointing. You're placing blame on the lively- hood of millions of people, many, like myself who have no connection with anyone who works for a US auto company. Your tone implies you, like the rest of America, are salivating for the demise of Michigan. The minute Toyota/Honda and Co. feel the car buying public in America is at it's limit, you can bet your ass that they will drop us faster than a pair of panties at a Tom Jones concert. It's people like you that will keep me buying only Ford, DCX or GM products. All that coming from a family that would only keep Honda or Toyota in their garage. Keep your import, I'm rooting for the home team. | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2003 |
I would love to root for the Big 3. But my experience suggests that they didn't care for me. Would you go back continually to a restuarant that has lousy food and poor service? I think not. WHy should I behave differently? The big difference is that a bad meal is quite a bit cheaper es[ecially while working poor than a 5 year loan and thousands on repairs after the warranty is over. I ask what about the tens of millions of working poor Americans who bought GM/Ford products. We were ripped off. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6220 Registered: 09-2005 |
Many seem to forget that prior to the late '70's (please correct me if I'm wrong on the years) the Japanese cars were far junkier than American cars, bad as ya'll think we were. Further, as technology improved and Americans demanded luxuries like air conditioning on cars, Americans were at least a decade ahead. I recall one particular issue of Consumers Reports that said Mercedes Benz should consider replacing their lousy AC compressor with the "far superior" GM product (same recommendation for Ford) Lo and behold, for the next few years both Mercedes and Ford used the familiar old black GM cylindrical compressor, minus the "Frigidaire" label, on a number of higher-end vehicles. Granted, they've leapfrogged us - hopefully just for now. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2007 |
Philbert, I'm not sure when you bought your last car, but if it was 15-20+ years ago, then yes I hear you. The cars american makers are putting out now will compete with any other offering on the market. And often surpass them for safety and quality. Years ago I tried a few foreign cars. The VW was almost a joke. The toyota was much better, but severely lacked in many areas. One being the interior, The plastic parts like most of what they produce couldn't have had over a hundred dollars worth of testing and development invested. The interior parts would bleach out from the sun and become brittle. Or just break for no apparent reason. It was just cheesy inside. One time I was making a right turn and my finger caught the turn signal lever and it popped off right at the column. It was made like a kids toy. All polycarbonate? like plastics. Brittle and just junk. My girlfriend had a Camry and the visors literally fell off in the floor. I tried to repair them, but there was nothing left to repair. This car was only three years old. Incidently, later on she was involved in what I thought was not too serious of a fender bender, the car was totalled, because of the cost of the parts to repair it. And when I drive a car, i want it to feel like a vehicle, not a go-kart with a body. Seriously, I drive quite a bit and I'm not noticing all these alleged breakdown prone american cars on the side of the road. I drive a Ford and I abuse it, rarely ever change the oil. 7 years I've been driving it, it's never left me stranded, other than brakes once in 90k, havent had the first problem with it. Also haven't heard a "we bought a xxxx and we're having nothing but trouble with it" story in 20 years. There is no valid reason to avoid american cars in this day and age. | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 401 Registered: 03-2005 |
You think Toyota really cares about you? Please, enlighten me. When the wind doesn't fill their sails so fully what do you think will honestly happen? I ask this because when Toyota falls, which rising Chinese company will take their place? No good thing lasts forever and if we lose our auto industry more than millions of hard working Americans will be "ripped off." We are two different schools of thought. You buy for your own personal interests, I buy for the place I call home. | ||
Admin Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 594 Registered: 09-2003 |
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