  Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2006 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070218/BUS INESS04/702180679/1002 This article should generate some comment. Bottom line seemed to be that the news is that there is no (new) news. I guess the first 'shoe to drop' will be Ilitch's decision on where his team will play. Nothing seems anywhere close to anything on the other three. P.S. I really wish the Greektown owners could have built their casino at 375/Gratiot - what a site near the stadia. I think it would have looked beautiful and complimented Ford Field. A casino, not an office building, would have been the perfect building for that site. Opportunity missed. Now that 7 acres will just sit there for a long time as a parking lot. Think I've parked there myself - maybe for a World Series game. RIP Jeff. (Message edited by emu_steve on February 18, 2007) | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 230 Registered: 01-2004 |
I agree the first foot to fall is the arena...one can only hold out hope that this is part of a joint announcement with the Statler/Tuller site. Although, I just hope that this site is thoughtfully developed and that one of the parcels facing GCP is not used for a parking garage; that would be tacky. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 744 Registered: 10-2003 |
You don't want to get stuck in Coleman's old mode of waiting so long for the next big thing that none of the promising smaller opportunities are capitalized on. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 147 Registered: 11-2006 |
I understand that if one can't hit a homer then singles and doubles are pretty good options. With Detroit there is so much room for the 'singles and doubles' development that one shouldn't 'single-down' something like the Hudson site. The Foxtown site for hockey would be a homer and reduce the number of big sites to be developed by one. Maybe Gratiot/375 can be worked into some smaller parcels. I do, however, see it as a gateway into the CBD so whatever goes there should be appropriate and functional (whatever function it should be). (Message edited by emu_steve on February 18, 2007) | ||
Mountainman Member Username: Mountainman Post Number: 126 Registered: 02-2006 |
The thing with small developments is that they create the critical mass for the larger "homerun" developments. They shouldn't overlook the importance of the small guys. I would also be pretty pissed if they tossed up a parking garage on grand circus park. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2435 Registered: 02-2005 |
Monroe Block??? I want a major high-rise there so I don't mind waiting...but this should have been on the list (or do we fear losing that prime parking right in the city center?) | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 110 Registered: 08-2006 |
I think that an arena behind the fox would be a terrible idea. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 71 Registered: 02-2007 |
I somewhat agree with fareastsider. Foxtown already has it going on (that area doesn't need another arena). On the other hand the area where the current Joe Louis is needs the arena. If the current arena were vacated that part of town would be dead. If Illich didn't own all of the land behind the Fox we might see some more retail and residential development. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 268 Registered: 11-2005 |
A haiku, for you: Foxtown arena? C'mon, share the wealth, Ilitch! Stay on the river! | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 148 Registered: 11-2006 |
I forget from the other threads on the hockey arena, but what is wrong with the Gratiot / 375 site? It is 7 acres BUT Ilitch doesn't own the parcel. Was there comment that the size of the parcel wasn't adequate???? Or mostly, why should Ilitch buy land when he already owns land? Oops, I think I remember - too far from Hockeytown, etc. which is why it will probably be behind the Fox or maybe north of 75 (as some have recently suggested). (Message edited by emu_steve on February 18, 2007) | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 266 Registered: 07-2006 |
it wasn't the size of the parcel - i pasted the bell center (highest capacity arena in the NHL) in that space and it fit nicely. (that is, if i had the area in question correct) personally, i like that space as well, but most likely you are correct, it's just too far away from his other interests. then again, motor city isn't too close either. i guess that's not technically mike ilitch's, i suppose, but i'm still surprised it's not close by. (Message edited by scottr on February 18, 2007) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 523 Registered: 10-2006 |
JLA is still pretty far from the Hockeytown Cafe, so I don't know that a new closer proximity is necessary, leaving options open for JLA to be at the Gratiot site. Also, does Ilitch own the site where the JLA is at now? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3654 Registered: 08-2004 |
Um, if the Red Wings move out of JLA to another site, it will have NO IMPACT on the riverfront site. There are no restaurants or bars and no retail in that area.... only the River Walk, 3 Riverfront Condo towers and huge parking structures. What is there that could "die off"? Wayne County is thinking about building a new Justice Center. The 7 acre former Greektown site is perfect for such an undertaking. The site is surrounded on 2 sides by existing Justice buildings (Murphy Hall of Justice, Juvenile Justice center, City Jail, County Jail & Sheriffs Department). I would like to see the new Arena built between Cass & Grand River, north of the GAR. But if that would mean the demo of the Moose Lodge, then I would rather they build the arena east of Cass. Or they should do a Chuck Forbes... and move the Moose Lodge across the street in order to save it. It screams "entertainment potential". And owner Blair McGowan has plenty of experience in entertainment. And as often been stated before, the Statler/Tuller site would be ideal for Quicken. Maybe they would even like a "Quicken Center for the Performing Arts" (United Artists Theatre) incorporated into their HQ complex.  | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 231 Registered: 01-2004 |
I always hoped the permanent Motor City would have been built on the Statler/Tuller site and incorporate the UA; it seemed like a perfect place considering the entertainment district; but, oh well………..I guess the site was too small or it would violate the distance requirement for a new hockey arena…if there is one | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2006 |
If there is, it is likely from baseball, not hockey | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 233 Registered: 01-2004 |
Very true.....hockey seems to be more laxed with this type of situation; I make this claim in light of the Isle of Capri deal in Pittsburg, so baseball is probably the culprit if that was ever an option. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 303 Registered: 11-2006 |
Heh, I think that hockey probably WISHES fans would gamble on the sport. The NHL needs any kind of acknowledgement they can get | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 234 Registered: 01-2004 |
The NHL needs to end this southern US experiment that has gone horribly wrong and return teams to Canada where there is a natural fan base waiting for them.......Winnipeg? Hamilton? Québec City?.........and I will even throw Hartford in there….bring back the Whale | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 304 Registered: 11-2006 |
Yea, theyve talked about switching back to more Canadian cities. Bettman has said that no one is going anyhwere though, and that they basically expanded too fast and are catching up. They need ESPN though. Its a shame that a major sport has no presence on the majro network, while freaking NASCAR is on every day now. ...as I watch Pitt/Wash on the only National telecast...NBC | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 235 Registered: 01-2004 |
Yea, I am up to date on the Bettman saga.......although, his contract is up in 09 and there has been talk of not renewing it; that could drastically change things….so, I hold out hope; but this is a topic for the sports forum, so I will stop at that……..now, back to development issues. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 267 Registered: 07-2006 |
I agree completely about Motor City at the Statler/Tuller/UA site. With a restored United Artists theater, they'd have a concert venue that few other casinos could match. Possibly even including the Michigan theater building too, if there still wasn't enough space for hotel and gaming, which could give you a second fantastic theater (if ANYONE has the funds to restore that, it's the gaming industry!). With the Fox, Comerica, Hockeytown, and a new Foxtown arena, it would have consolidated their empire while filling out the Grand Circus area nicely. I agree Gistok, that is a great spot for a Justice Center, with what is already in the surrounding area. What I do fear, however, is if Quicken does take the Statler/Tuller/UA site, the UA will be demolished or we'll end up with a parking garage on GCP. But if they did restore it, i would be ecstatic. | ||
Korridorkid Member Username: Korridorkid Post Number: 44 Registered: 01-2005 |
I like Gistok's idea of a "Quicken Loans Center for the Performing Arts". Talk about adaptive reuse. City could always use more theatre. Personally, I could see the new JLA more appropriatly conjoining in the Gratiot context, in such that it would "thread" Eastern Market, Brewery Place, Fordfield/Comerica and Greektown and the rest of Gratiot, which is improving nicely. However, That JLA People Mover Station is a big help for games with it being right in the building. I know Greektown Station in only 4-5 blocks away depending. Maybe it would build upon some improved foot traffic through the greater Greektown Area. Certainly would help the Casino. However, I could see disadvantages to having the Juvenile Detention Center right next door. Sort of a NIMBY effect rather than crime related of course. Any thoughts? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2436 Registered: 02-2005 |
The problem with the JLA is that it is so cut off by Cobo and the expressway. Ilitch should definetly consider the 375/Gratiot site. What benefit is there if the arena is near the Fox? What do they have to do with each other? He should diversify and spread out across downtown. There's plenty of parking everywhere, so that shouldn't even be a concern, plus you'll have room to build on-site season ticket holder garages on that 7-acre parcel. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 72 Registered: 02-2007 |
What about the Motown site? I feel the Free Press left that out. This site has major potential and is in a prime location. One other note. from the media and this forum it looks like Joe Louis and Rock Financial are next BIG upcoming development for Detroit....time will only tell. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2006 |
Agree with Yelloweyes. The 375 / Gratiot and the Motown site are two very important sites. They may not be 'high profile' but they are very important (okay, not high [or highest] profile to the Freep writer). Agree Justice Center for the Gratiot site. From previous threads, I don't remember an consensus re: what to do with the Motown site. Some expected parking garage; others hoped for some quality housing developement. | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2007 |
The large site once planned for Greektown Casino may prove more difficult to develop. At an asking price of $34 million, the site is costly, and at more than 7 acres, it presents a lot of land to fill up. That price is FUNNY! Is that site owned a private company or the City? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1579 Registered: 12-2005 |
The Free Press says it's currently owned by Greektown Casino. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3658 Registered: 08-2004 |
Mackinaw... if the new arena were to be located AT Grand River it would help make the Grand River Ave. corridor a bigger part of Detroit's entertainment district. What with the massive MGM Detroit Casino going up a block west of Grand River, and MotorCity Casino going up up the road. It would encourage both MGM and MotorCity to bring big acts to the nearby arena. That would play nicely into Mike Ilitch's vision of having his venue outperform the Palace. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2438 Registered: 02-2005 |
Good point. I certainly don't have a preference as to where a new arena goes. Shouldn't there have been an announcement by now? | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 225 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lets get the arena in foxtown. Maybe with life around there, MGM will build residential towers like they did in Las Vegas. Get some residential/commercial infill, and we have ourselves another booming area. We need to realize that with that area booming, we make almost double our downtown. With this area doing well, downtown can then branch out high density projects in the Cass Park area. Here is my plan for that area. Blue- Brownstones Yellow- Housing Infill Light Blue- Parking Garage Red- 20 Story or taller residential tower Maroon- 10-20 Story Residential tower Green- Greenspace Purple- Renovation Black Star- Main Hotspot http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a301/rbdetsport/E.jpg (Message edited by Rbdetsport on February 18, 2007) (Message edited by Rbdetsport on February 18, 2007) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5133 Registered: 10-2003 |
What a creative way to paraphrase the actual title of the article and what it laid out. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2006 |
I've re-read these posts and the Freep article, and maybe patience is the order of the day. Ilitch most likely decide something this year and I'd bet the Fox site. One down three to go. The SH site might be next (as someone here suggested) and what maybe 2 or 3 years? As the Freep article and posters indicate, that Gratiot/375 at 34M won't be grabbed too soon. Maybe they are WAITING for a Justice Center? The Hudson site will be difficult. My guess is that the Motown site (not in the Freep article) would get serious looks AFTER an arena is complete (if it is built behind the Fox). By 12/31/10 I could see three of the Freep's four sites having shovels in the ground. Motown site might need to wait until an arena is complete. What a blown opportunity for the Greektown H-C at 375 / Gratiot. It would be at a gateway site and a big building would have looked great opposite Ford Field. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 192 Registered: 03-2006 |
The talk of the UA theater being incorporated with a new development is intriguing. Im curious to see if the theater is actually salvageable or not. Does anybody have any info on the condition of the theater. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 193 Registered: 03-2006 |
I would hate to see the Moose torn down, would it be feasible to move it like Gistok suggested. What a great building, it needs to be saved.  | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1155 Registered: 01-2005 |
Quicken Loans/Rock Financial has an upcoming mandatory employee meeting at the Opera House. It would be a great place to say, "Isn't this Opera House fantastic? In fact, it's part of Grand Circus Park, and represents the exact opposite piece of the pie wedge that our new headquarters will occupy, just on the other side of Woodward." | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1012 Registered: 12-2005 |
Detroit has had this habit of relying on the big people (businessmen, developers, auto heirs etc) of building BIG projects that will be the fix-all of all the social ills that have beset city for the last 40+ years, all the while the individual departments of the city that could be helping the little guy who wants to operate that one storefront (of which there are thousands between all of the "big projects") as a restaurant, bar, store or service--are instead practicing disjointed "random acts of regulation" in a uneven manner. Worry about the little "slots" between the big guy's pet projects, help them too. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1065 Registered: 11-2004 |
^So true. | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 226 Registered: 11-2005 |
What do you all think about my E.Cass Park Plan? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1115 Registered: 02-2004 |
Rbdetsport, I like your use of yellow but your drawing could use more balance. How about adding some purple and make the green a darker shade. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 155 Registered: 11-2006 |
Quinn, Are you suggesting that there is a chance that something big might happen? When might this meeting happen? | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1373 Registered: 11-2003 |
It is still interesting that Quicken/Rock has all their large meetings downtown, as opposed to someplace like Rock Financial Showplace in Novi, or the Palace of which Rock is a huge sponser (Pistons that is). But they choose the Fox and the Opera House for parties and events. Interesting. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 108 Registered: 08-2006 |
I really would love to see Quicken take the Statler/Tuller sites. It would be nice if they incorporated the UA in some way. IMO it would have to be the office portion because the theater appears to be beyond repair. Im no expert but you be the judge. http://www.flickr.com/photos/s outhen/sets/72157594448748685/ My only hope is that the office tower is incorporated into whatever goes there. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3662 Registered: 08-2004 |
Good points about the Fox and Opera House meeting. What a great way of Gilbert to show off Detroit to his employees... and hopefully get an announcement! (Although I won't hold my breath!) Kenp, I am sure that the Moose Building could be moved, just as the Gem/Century Building was by Chuck Forbes. However the Moose does present an extra challenge in that its' basement footprint is larger than the rest of the building. The reason for the fence around the building is to keep people off of the sidewalk, which has glass blocks inset so that the basement underneath can get light. As for the United Artists Theatre.... I don't think it is too far gone YET. But it is getting close. Depends on the condition of the structural steel, more so than the condition of the ornate plasterwork. When the Detroit Opera House was restored, 90% of that theatres ornate plaster was replaced. As long as there are remnants and historic photographs, anything is possible. However, that said, the likelihood of a restoration is still remote. Restoring the auditorium and lobbies of the Opera House cost over $20 million (plus the additional cost of building a new stage house for opera productions, and the restoration of the DOH office block brought the total to $42 million). Although the (2,072 seat) UA Theatre is smaller than the (original) 3,384 seat DOH, it has a huge office building attached to it, that further complicates the situation. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2067 Registered: 07-2004 |
I want to put the new Red Wings Arena behind the Fox because it would be the quickest way to rid that area of all the surface parking lots and create foot traffic to an otherwise dead area. Without an arena, it would take decades to infill those parking lots with buildings. Also, regarding where exactly to put an arena behind the Fox. I fail to understand some of you who want to squeeze the arena between Grand River and Cass. There is clearly more room for an arena to the east of Cass, and fewer buildings would have to be demolished, especially the Moose Lodge Building. I firmly believe that every attempt should be made to save this building. Now, regarding the UA Building, I think the office building could be saved. Then, tear down the theater and replace it with a parking garage(of equal height) that wraps around the rest of that block. Have retail on the ground floor facing Adams, Bagley, and Park streets respectively, and you have an attractive site for a business like Quicken Loan. Regarding the Statler site, as long as the dilapidated AAA Building remains standing, not much is going to happen to the Statler site. This little building is in the way of any major development on the Statler site. I believe the best use of the Statler/AAA site would be to build a residential highrise similar to the Trolley plaza with ground floor retail, parking in the middle, a pool, tennis court, and track in the back, and residential units on the remaining floors. A "skyloft" or something like what they are building in Royal Oak on the east side of Main Street just north of Eleven Mile would be sweet. BTW, with all of the residential units going up at the corner of Main Street and Eleven Mile, are they still planning on tearing down the Main Art Theatre? Seems like a good spot for all of those new residents to walk to and see a movie. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 280 Registered: 07-2006 |
I believe i've heard on past threads that Tony Pieroni (owner of AAA building) has said he wouldn't stop a development of that block, so I don't think that would be an issue. I see a restoration of the theater (Gilbert seems to like doing things in restored downtown theaters, why not his own?) as a definite possibility. While in very poor shape, I see nothing that won't stop it. It's mostly a matter of ambition, vision, and of course money. If parking can't be feasibly put underground, I would hope, if anywhere, it would end up on the west part of the statler block. There should NOT be a parking garage directly facing GCP, with or without ground floor retail and condos on top. This would leave you with the remaining Statler and Tuller blocks for new buildings, whether for quicken or someone else. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2006 |
"I want to put the new Red Wings Arena behind the Fox because it would be the quickest way to rid that area of all the surface parking lots and create foot traffic to an otherwise dead area. Without an arena, it would take decades to infill those parking lots with buildings." Amen, Royce. I'm not an urban planner or developer, etc. but in a large downtown like Detroit eating up empty blocks with appropriate development is critical. Too many empty blocks would seem to cause an inertia to act. A new hockey arena works well behind the Fox. Then maybe the GAR building. And then the hitting singles and doubles can pick up steam. Nothing like a good 'bandwagon effect' to take hold. | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2007 |
if the gratiot/375 lot is owned by a private entity (greektown) then the county will actually have to pay for it and there is no way in hell that cash strapped wayne county is going to shell out 34 million for a parcel of land. the new jla will be north of hockeytown on woodward. That whole area is basically deserted. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 76 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "the new jla will be north of hockeytown on woodward. That whole area is basically deserted" This is the Motown site. Doesn't Berry Gordy own all of this land. As everyone has pointed out it would make more sense for "Little Ceasers" arena to go where the owner already owns property... behind the Fox. | ||
Croweblack Member Username: Croweblack Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2007 |
An arena is huge. He does not at this time own enough property to build behind the Fox. also... Doesn't Berry gordy only own the parcel where that 6 story building was? (could have been a 4 story or 10 story I can't remember right now) Look from that parcel North on Wooodward, it is basically vacant land. big enough for a stadium if ya ask me. | ||
Schulzte1 Member Username: Schulzte1 Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2007 |
I agree that spacing out the Stadiums a bit more would be nice, but Mr. Illich has so much invested around the Fox, it only makes sense for him to build there. I've got an overhead view of the area surrounding the Fox Theater and a plan I created for a new Red Wings Arena at www.newolympia.blogspot.com | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3666 Registered: 08-2004 |
Royce, it wouldn't matter to me if the new arena were east or west of Cass behind the Fox. But I do agree with you about saving the Moose Lodge. And if he did build it east of Cass, it would be a bigger boost for the entertainment spots along Park Ave. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 37 Registered: 01-2007 |
I believe I read somewhere that a new hockey arena most likely won't be built behind the Fox. The parking lot owners with land there got wind of Ilitch using shell companies to buy up land there, and jacked up the price to get in on the profit taking. I believe the best place for a hockey arena would be the motown site. | ||
Corktownmark Member Username: Corktownmark Post Number: 258 Registered: 12-2004 |
Wow these are four great sites for development. Wonder how much of this prime real-estate will be developed by local money and how much by out of state folks who can look past our parochial feuding. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2006 |
what these posts indicate (or question raised): How much of the land behind the Fox would Ilitch need for a new arena does he NOW control? How expensive to gain the rest? The corollary is: If parcel assembly is to difficult (and includes things like moving a building) then what are the parcel assembly issues for the Motown site? A few months ago here, thought I read that the city controls the "Motown" block. Who controls the rest that Ilitch would need? IS parcel assembly the only thing hold Ilitch back??????? | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 159 Registered: 11-2006 |
one other thought. There was an article Monday in the Washington paper about their Convention Center. It did nothing for the neighborhood and actually probably hurt. The center is huge and dwarfs residents and small shops adjacent to it. It is actually on the edge of downtown. Verizon Center, built in the old downtown spurred redevelopment. A hockey arena ISN'T anywhere as large as a convention center, but placing it on the Motown site would might be bad for doing housing near it. Do others concur that it would cause issues in that area which is 'residential' (in quotes) as it lies barren now? Folks west of the arena would be blocked from seeing the sun. | ||
Corktownmark Member Username: Corktownmark Post Number: 259 Registered: 12-2004 |
Another factor on the Motown site is that an arena here would extend the entertaimment district to include Masonic temple which is truly a gem that is not used to it's capacity | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 461 Registered: 01-2005 |
I am not a "preservationist." However, I am curious as to why people think the Moose Lodge (or any other building) is so special that one would seriously consider spending several million dollars to move it (or take any other steps to preserve it.) Criteria? Would this be a building that all preservationists would consider "preserving?" What would justify someone trying to prevent an owner of a so-called "historic building" from demolishing it in view of the fact that historical private property rights would permit one to do so? | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1018 Registered: 12-2005 |
It dosen't matter what anyone says re: not demolishing a historical structure. Detroit has seen many instances where the demolition went ahead in disregard of court-ordered stays. No one was called up on charges, business went on as usual. I like to think of it as "3rd shift demo" | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 268 Registered: 11-2003 |
The Moose Lodge does not need to be moved to build a new stadium behind the FOX. Also, the Moose Lodge will be torn down before it would be ever considered being moved. It is not feasible and not economical. | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 228 Registered: 11-2005 |
If the new hockey arena is built back there, there is no doubt about it that the state needs to cap I-75 around there, thusly connecting the Cass Park area even more and giving this area, the potential for Downtown to extend north. Inching closer too New Center. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8369 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I'm sure that the state would give a fuck about connecting areas separated by the freeway. I can hear Craig DeRoche's sorry ass whining "We can't afford to cap freeways in Detroit. We need to build more roads and subdividisions on 40 mile road." | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2006 |
"Another factor on the Motown site is that an arena here would extend the entertaimment district to include Masonic temple which is truly a gem that is not used to it's capacity" Corktownmark. I guess one big ? is do folks here think it is better to solidify the CBD (behind the Fox) including eating up some surface parking lots OR go north of 75 and try to jump start development between 75 and the Masonic? Either way a new arena would jump start development in either area both which really need it. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1160 Registered: 01-2005 |
I have no insider information, just friends that work at Quicken. I know that sometime in mid-march is a mandatory employee meeting there...not the big annual one that is in the fall. They usually have the big annual on at the Fox, and like I said, in the Fall. My friend doesn't remember them even having a meeting at the opera house...and I thought that maybe that means something. Would be too, too perfect because that is, in fact, the mirror opposite of the supposed preferred Statler lot. Having said all that, I hate myself for falling into the same old trap of "oh my are they going to move?" Ugh...enough already. Piss or get off the pot, QL/RF! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3675 Registered: 08-2004 |
If the Gem/Century can be moved, why can't the Moose? They're similar in size. What made one feasible and the other not? | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2003 |
There could be a book written on the whole Comerica Park deal and how that came about and how Chuck Forbes made deals to give up his land in exchange for buildings being moved. The move of the GEM placed the GEM in the Guinness Book of World Records, as the heaviest building ever moved on wheels, at about five million pounds. Do you think the moose lodge would be moved without it having any historic significance? If it is so valuable it would not be sitting vacant today. I don’t have the specs on size comparison but I think the Moose might be bigger. Anything is possible with the right amount of money. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3679 Registered: 08-2004 |
Rjlj, the Moose is owned by Blair McGowan, the owner (and former owner) of several establishments in downtown and in Pontiac. His son posts here, and IIRC has stated that no bank will put up money to develop the property with the possibility of an arena going there. Also, that spot is desolate at the moment, with no activity nearby. Banks are leary about lending out money under those type of conditions as well. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2084 Registered: 07-2004 |
Here's another reason to build the new hockey arena behind the Fox: free parking. Just park in the MGM Grand Casino parking structure and walk over. If you need validated parking just go into the casino after the game. Now if Ilitch finds out about this then there probably won't be an arena behind the Fox. Oh well, that's life. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2006 |
Here is my two cents. I prefer a new hockey arena to be built behind the Fox. I believe it works best there for several reasons. 1. It eats up a lot of those empty parking lots 2. It will fill the gap between the last day of the NFL season and Opening Day for the Tigers and make that area a fully year-round sports/entertainment destination. 3. It will provide density to that area. If Illitch decides to build there, you know he won't want to lose all the revenue he pulls in from parking. With all those acres of Olympia owned parking going away, look for many of the existing parking lots to be developed into parking structures (perhaps even with ground floor retail :P). Plus I think it will attract more smaller entertainment investments like bars and clubs. Here is why I think other locations don't work. 1. The current site of JLA does NOTHING for the city. It is totally isolated and is much better suited as an expansion of Cobo Hall. 2. I would be concerned that the size of the motown site (and the comparative thinness of development around it) would perhaps lean towards a more suburban design to the arena. Plus I think it would have a negative effect on residential development in that area. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 335 Registered: 07-2006 |
i gotta agree with most of what El jimbo says, with a slight addition - since the football season is, on average, a home game every other Sunday, and is only 8 games, having the wings in the immediate area will help during the football season as well. I would add to his last statement, that the Motown site, with residential right across Woodward, is more conducive to residential development itself. Putting an arena there would eliminate that possible use for the site, and as El jimbo says, could possibly hurt the surrounding area. I don't think the foxtown site is nearly as likely to see that sort of development, and it would help the existing establishments already in Foxtown. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 162 Registered: 11-2006 |
I agree with both El jimbo and Scottr. A new arena makes it possible for establishments in the area which depend on athletic crowds to have a steady base of customer 12 months a year. Very underrated factor in placing an arena. I know I posted this early on when I joined this forum, but I'd think that the NW corner of 75 / Woodward has got to be a GREAT block for multifamily housing (as is across the street). Put a new arena in the CBD with all the other tall or massive buildings and put housing outside it with the lower rise buildings. | ||
Schulzte1 Member Username: Schulzte1 Post Number: 43 Registered: 01-2007 |
The Joe has to go. It was built to get people in and out of town as fast as possible and thats it. There is nothing wrong with the arena itself, but it suffers the same affliction the RenCen once did. I've never seen a sports arena in a downtown so isolated from the rest of the business district. What do you all think a new arena should look like? Hope you all have seen my ideas at the homepage. (shameless plug, www.newolympia.blogspot.com) | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 579 Registered: 08-2004 |
One problem I see with Renovating UA Theatre is that there is not alot of theatre shows coming around these days.. Many are cancelling dates.. Problem that I saw on the theatre tour was it appears that Detroit is having a problem getting big shows to these venues.. The Fisher Theatre seems to have a attracted the most shows this year by far.. What we need is more established theatre companies.. like a second broadway in Detroit to attract permanent or semi-perm shows that attract folks.. Sort of how Phantom of the Opera was in Toronto for years.. We need those sort of big draw shows to take residence then bookings in the other theatres will prop up... Does anyone have the numbers of shows booked and empty theatre space? I suspect the empty far exceeds the booked.. this is a major problem.. I realize that during the tour it was a very low time in theatre.. but for example talking and listening to the folks over at the Music Hall they really didn't have alot of upcoming shows.. and it appears the theatre is sitting empty for most of the year.. Even though the Opera house has a huge stage.. Largest in Michigan from what I understand.. It still isn't full most the year.. hmmm... I am off in left field here? Or others noticed the same trend? | ||
Schulzte1 Member Username: Schulzte1 Post Number: 45 Registered: 01-2007 |
Does anyone think there might be an opportunity to open an old movie house like a UA as an actual movie house? Are there any even like that in Downtown? Many people say they wish the old movie palaces were still open, but could something like that fly in Downtown Detroit? Up near my home town in Bay City, they are managing to keep the old State Theatre afloat with a recent renovation and some special film festivals and such. www.statetheatrebaycity.com That place is big for a city of 40,000, holds 600. | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 585 Registered: 08-2004 |
Probably not.. the big movie houses would kill it quick.. Unfortunately people are not going to pay anymore money to see a show at a big movie house like that... Just not economical.. And unfortunately the area does not warrant another movie house.. How is Ren Cen Theatre's doing? That would be the gauge I would use.. To see if It could be a success.. | ||
B24liberator Member Username: B24liberator Post Number: 31 Registered: 01-2007 |
Digitaldom's got it right-- Even the older superplex movie joints (10-12 screens)can't compete with the newer mega-superplexes (20 screens + )But I'm with you Schultz1-- Even against the odds, it would be cool for one of Detroit's remaining gems to be renovated and lit up again! (sigh!) | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 336 Registered: 07-2006 |
I agree, it would be an amazing thing to see the UA as a movie house again, however it is highly unlikely without a philanthropist multibillionaire throwing a bunch of money at it without a care if he makes a dime off the place. To me it seems that the atmosphere of the old palaces was as much a part of the movie experience as the movie itself. The awe, the grandeur, even the courtesies extended to patrons have disappeared entirely, probably never to return. When I look at the multiplexes built recently, I find them bland and uninspired, nothing more than a plain concrete box, with cheesy ads and trivia questions on the screen as you wait for the previews to begin. It doesn't matter where you go, it's essentially the same concrete box. A newer one may have an art deco light sconce on the wall, but it's a far cry from the Fox or any other movie palace. I shouldn't be looking at crap on the screen during that time, I should be looking at the intricacies of the theater itself - make me want to come back to THIS theater and spend my money here again. I can see an ad at home. It doesn't help with rising ticket prices, home theaters, and poor movie selections, but we've really lost the excitement that a movie had back in the day, and I really think the move towards superdupermegamultiplexes over the years has been a huge part of it. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1037 Registered: 12-2005 |
The movie palace came about due to the lack of entertainment options available to people in the teens and twenties. Radio had yet to really take off, there were broadcasters, but they really didn't have a full day and night's worth of programming (this was before they figured out how to spin records on the radio) so you could go to a movie, or sit at home and read or play cards or board games. Every man, woman and child in the United states went to the movies 2.6 times a week (not literally, but numerically speaking) and saw a live show before the movie that consisted of vaudeville acts (singers, jugglers, acrobats, comedians, magicians, dance acts), the pipe organ would be featured in solos and if the theatre was big enough (=downtown in a large city) an orchestra that would play solo selections and accompany the live acts and the movie(s). Hollywood cranked out product during this period (and not all of it was memorable), most theatres changed the bill twice a week (which is what drove the above attendance numbers). A lot of younger people ask "why did they make theaters so GAUDY?" -- Simple answer, it sold tickets. It was everyman's palace; the common man could see what it was like to sink his feet into deep carpeting. It was a two-hour escape from the harsh real world. The mega-plex has become the way to profitability for the new cinema. Many predicted the death of the movie theatre when TV came (TV blossomed just as congress passed anti-trust legislation that prohibited motion picture companies from owning their own theatres, placing the ownership in the hands of family businesses, some good, many bad. Large corporations bought up those regional family chains in the late 70's and 80's), when Cable came, and when the home theatre craze started. As long as there are teenagers and young adults that want to go out on dates, there will be movie theatres. Scottr-you are right, the courtesies extended to patrons have disappeared, but then, the decorum of the average movie patron isn't what it used to be either. I've said it before, here goes again: if you want to save the UA you have to USE it. There needs to be a commercial demand for what can be presented there. The CBD has the Opera house and Music Hall as two non-profit houses, and it's hard enough to keep them busy. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 56 Registered: 12-2006 |
This might be totally out in left field, but I have a brainstorm that could possibly make an old movie palace such as UA a "destination" spot worth traveling to see. What if the UA was remade into an IMAX theater that operated only during evening hours? Think about it, mix the excellent acoustics of an old movie palace with the modern surround sound technology and large screen that IMAX provides. On weekends, first-run movies could be screened (Night at the Museum and Happy Feet for example), but on weeknights, older classics that would dually benefit from the movie palace look and the IMAX technology (Star Wars, Ben-Hur, Gone with the Wind, etc) coud be shown. Also, on some nights, they could do the themed "sing-a-long" things that some theaters have done for movies such as Rocky Horror Picture Show and The Wizard of Oz. It would truly be a unique entertainment destination that would combine the best of glamour of the old movie palace days with the best of modern sound and video innovation. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1038 Registered: 12-2005 |
El_Jimbo--don't mean to dump on your idea (which I like, you are trying to find a commercial use for the UA aud) but the modern thinking in movie theatre acoustics is to have a perfectly "dead" room--zero "hang time" for sound. This is why the cine-plexes have the pleated drapes on the walls, or now they use textured panels. Houses like the UA have lots of reflective surfaces, which is about ideal for "natural" music, meaning unamplified "acoustic" (hate that term) music, orchestral music--where a little natural fade is desireable. Movie sound engineers want to control the parameters of the soundtrack at all times. If they want ambience, they add ambience, but once it is there, you can't take it away. Imagine the Spanish Baroque interior of the UA covered with yards of fabric. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 57 Registered: 12-2006 |
oh...bummer. Well I tried didn't I? | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 69 Registered: 03-2007 |
There has to be something we can do to get a comprehensive plan for both the united artist an Michigan theaters,,the Michigan has more of a chance based on the fact that the office building is fully funtional with tenents. The theater,even though transformed into a parking structure,has been at least maintained consistantly to keep the cars in a inclosed space and keeping up the building for the businesses that still exist.Right? | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 395 Registered: 02-2007 |
The area behind the fox IS bad for a Hockey Arena, but it has so much Commercial and Residential potential being wasted (closed to all expressways, Woodward, Casinos, Ent. district. I wonder why nothing has stepped up to develop something in that area besides a Hockey Arena. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 507 Registered: 03-2006 |
Downtown_remix forum etiquette: generally dont revive month old threads without new news,pictures,inside info, or other unique info to contribute (Message edited by apbest on March 26, 2007) | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 396 Registered: 02-2007 |
Also, it may aid the rehab of Park Ave. Maye it will become the high class avenue it once was projected to be one day. The Hotel Park Ave. Look like it was trying to go for a hotel only for the upscale folks just looking at the outside of the building. I wish someone develop in that part of DD. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 397 Registered: 02-2007 |
Wow, didn't know this was a month old. I just saw it at the top. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 70 Registered: 03-2007 |
I just think its an important topic. The BC is starting the re-developement engine for WEST DOWNTOWN, but tell me,who has been to the new park bar,cliff bells? kales is next with cool apartments,along with shields pizza comming to the ground level. We are waiting for funding to totally revamp trolley plaza apts,basically racing to be ready for the arrival of BC. if you cant afford a condo at BC, why not live a block away. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 400 Registered: 02-2007 |
MGM prety much took care of WEST DOWNTOWN. B-C will basically just help out the Michigan/Cass Corridor, Capital Park and Washington BLVD corridor. Some of what's left may try to spread into GCP, but that will likely be as far as it goes. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3923 Registered: 08-2004 |
The Michigan Theatre would cost about $60-$75 million to recreate the theatre space. They would have to rebuild the missing 2/3 of the balcony, the grand stair case, the mezzanine, the mezzanine and balcony foyers, replace the plasterwork (missing and weathered), and regrade the main floor. Then there's the marble, the chandeliers, the railings, and all the mechanical that would have to be reinstalled. Very pricey. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 74 Registered: 03-2007 |
Lets not forget the Pick-Fort SHELBY, 75 apts an a Double Tree hotel.So wat do u think will happen to these 2 theaters,Michigan an UA? Ill chain myself to the Michigan Theater,Lets call Oprah,Donald Trump,Micheal Jackson. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 79 Registered: 03-2007 |
as development(capital park,MGM, motor city,BC,pick fort shelby,Park ave,Washington blvd)continue to transform west side of downtown,this trend will eventually have big money developers eyeing these theaters | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 872 Registered: 06-2006 |
I'm not sure what, if anything, to make of this, but the renderings of the Quicken Loans building that were posted in the thread below have been removed from Rossetti's website... I find this especially odd since they don't seem to remove very much from their site and still have some renderings up from as many as five years ago... https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/91697/93046.html |
