  Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 168 Registered: 10-2003 |
Saw this on Fox News this morning, but can't find a link to a story online. From what I caught, it seems the DPS spent 1 MILLION dollars on a painting, and now the facts are just coming out. If anybody can find a link to this story please post it here. Totally unbelievable. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 651 Registered: 06-2006 |
How much do you think they should be spending? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 169 Registered: 10-2003 |
On a painting? How about nothing? From what I heard this morning it was shady and unauthorized. But let's see if someone finds the story before debating it, K? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2463 Registered: 02-2005 |
I've always believed that art appreciation is key to a well-rounded education. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 151 Registered: 07-2006 |
http://www.clickondetroit.com/ education/11102412/detail.html | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 652 Registered: 06-2006 |
sorry...the way the title of your thread reads, I thought you meant they were spending that much on an art/painting program for the students... (Message edited by thejesus on February 26, 2007) | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 281 Registered: 08-2006 |
As an artist I strongly believe in teaching and exposing kids to the arts, but considering the financial situation of the city this was a poor decision. | ||
Valkyrias Member Username: Valkyrias Post Number: 439 Registered: 02-2005 |
i agree with you stecks. and do we even know they were planning to teach the children about these pieces (whatever they are)? there was a quote in the article that said, kids need to see the symbols...what good is that going to do unless someone helps them understand what the symbols mean? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 435 Registered: 04-2006 |
"I think kids need to see these symbols. ... You have to sometimes bring the museum to them." LOL. That's what the DIA is for... | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 170 Registered: 10-2003 |
Where are the paintings? I wonder if they are actually IN a school, or just hanging on some councilmember's wall. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4541 Registered: 11-2004 |
Why shouldn't students be exposed to art beyond just the DIA? Right about now it seems as though the only accepted way out of an inner city school is to play in sports but what are the odds of a student progressing to the level of the majors? Compared that to a lifetime of self discovery and art appreciation, I think art is probably one of the last things we should be criticizing our students having access to. There's art all around us but if this is one way for the students to see there is relevance in art every day, then let's have more. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2003 |
Smogboy, I do agree art is important. But the DIA is right there and probably has better art and more opportunities for learning than the paintings the school bought. The DPS is in a financial crisis. Loading the kids on a bus and taking them to a museum or two is a lot cheaper and more fiscally reasonable at this time. And in my opinion, they'd get more out of it. More bang for the buck, simple economic sense. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 214 Registered: 12-2006 |
If spending a million dollars on art work for schools is that important, why don't Michigan's excellent school districts do such things? | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4542 Registered: 11-2004 |
Johnlodge, I understand your approach in the economic sense but my stance is that the students should have accessiblity to the art as well. I think having the artwork in the buildings they attend everyday is very important. Just because the DIA houses some of the most important pieces of art in this town shouldn't mean that it's their only art either. Your argument for having a centralized art resource in the DIA could also hold true to the point that the city should eliminate all libraries and in-school libraries just because we have the Main Library in the Cultural Center. Again, fiscally responsible but not very accessible. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4543 Registered: 11-2004 |
Michigan's excellent school districts have viable art programs. As it is now, the DPS has decided to cut theirs back to the bare bones. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1315 Registered: 12-2004 |
I think the outrage over this is somewhat silly. Obviously, DPS should spend most of its money on teachers and facilities. However, it is a large district, with significant budgetary line items for things like art. Were they justified in their purchases? Not sure. Is $1.5 million a lot to spend on art? I don't think so - not when you run a district of 100,000. That's an average expenditure of $15 per student. Don't they get several thousand from the state per student per year? I would think $15 would be an appropriate art allocation... | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 710 Registered: 01-2005 |
I think this article was a sort of tip-off to those who would recognize it that the ties between Sherry Washington and the Kilpatrick family are being investigated a higher, federal level. It is unconscionable that the DPS is the only district among its peers that had to spend $1 million of non-student art and that with a close friend of the Mayor's Father, to boot. Didn't she make enough off the Cobo art that was paid for by renewing the tax bonds on Cobo? | ||
65memories Member Username: 65memories Post Number: 349 Registered: 10-2003 |
The one million dollars spent on artwork could have repaired a lot of drafty windows at Mumford...probably all of them. Then we wouldn't need to spend one million fixing rhe broken pipes that freeze and burst because of the drafty windows. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4545 Registered: 11-2004 |
Would there really be this "outrage" if the DPS spent this money on new football equipment? | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 448 Registered: 06-2005 |
Am I the only one here picturing DPS board members in their basements with finger paints? | ||
Wsugrad Member Username: Wsugrad Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2006 |
might as well say "DPS to flush $1 million down toilet" Why didn't this $1 million go to actually funding ART EDUCATION?? AS IN HANDS-ON TRAINING, guest speakers or field trips to the dozens of awesome galleries and art spaces in Detroit??? (DIA, Afro-Am museum, Heidelberg, MOCAD, CAID, DFC) It just doesn't add up and is simply another indication why those who have the opportunity to send their kids to school somewhere else do just that. (Message edited by wsugrad on February 26, 2007) (Message edited by wsugrad on February 26, 2007) | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 711 Registered: 01-2005 |
Football equipment would probably be worn by the students. This artwork does not highlight DPS student talent. Sort of reminds me of the famous line attributed to Marie Antoinette when told that the peasants had no bread: "Then let them eat cake." Dps has no bread, closing schools and no books, leaks, programs cut - isn't non-student artwork purchased in huge amounts from a single gallery a little like serving cake to a starving district? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 215 Registered: 12-2006 |
I am not suggesting money be cut from art programs. I am suggesting it is frivolous and wasteful, in a district that can't keep buildings in decent condition or afford ordinary school supplies, to be spending money in this way. I believe excellent school districts show their students fine art by bringing the students to where the art is, not by bringing the art to where the students are. This is akin to starting a DPS Symphony Orchestra, made up of professional musicians and costing a great deal of money, because excellent concert music should be in the schools; students should not have to travel to see a symphony. That is absurd yet people think a similar type of expense on art is not. Smogboy, I'd be outraged by a similar expense on football equipment, but your point is probably correct in general. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 172 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wouldn't change my opinion. I could care less about sports education. Personally I think way too much money is wasted nation-wide on that crap. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2464 Registered: 02-2005 |
$1.5 million may not seem like a ton in the scope of the huge DPS budget, but it is equivalent to a one-year salary about 18-20 tenured, union teachers, and that is a ton. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4549 Registered: 11-2004 |
I guess my analogy of spending money on football equipment is to highlight where we place importance. Yes, a player can immediately wear the equipment but purchasing artwork can also inspire budding art students. Purchasing this artwork can also be argued that it is just as important to an arts instructor as it is for English teachers to have proper English books. How does one put a price on inspiration? What are we telling our youth when we condemn the purchase of art & culture? | ||
Valkyrias Member Username: Valkyrias Post Number: 440 Registered: 02-2005 |
i would be just as *outraged* if they spent the money on any kind of athletic equipment. any and every kind of school program is important when it comes to a child's education. yes, you want them exposed to art and sports and foreign language and so on. but the problems it that the dps has grossly misused funds for as long as i can remember, and things aren't getting better either. i am sure there are better options to obtaining art (or athletic equipment) than spending so much money on it. one obvious idea is the dia. but there are also many other non-profit organizations around the city who *teach art* to children, like arts and scraps, pawz (public art works...they are part of blight busters) and even the heidleberg project. i am sure there are plenty of local (and non local) artists who would be willing to donate their art to the schools. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4551 Registered: 11-2004 |
I'm more outraged at the 95 yard football field that was put in at Cass Tech. But obviously that story isn't as juicy as this one for the Freep to bite into. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2007 |
This reminds me of the story where Detroit Schools bought the metal sculpture "Delaquesance" (sp?) and put it outside a school back in the late 70's (Sort of like "Autometal" that was in the DIA at the same time). The city paid close to $200k for it if I remember correctly. I didn't see the art in it myself, Lots of sheet metal welded together. It was under the same circumstances, Schools broke, city in financial trouble. This sounds like a different deal this time. It's not that taxpayers wish to keep art away from anyone, it's their outrage to such lavish expenditures under the current financial circumstances. There are a lot of artists that would do more for a lot less. Seems a more economical and meaningful way to approach artistic displays would be have local artists/students submit three views of proposed sculptures to the city, then the city select one, put it out for quote and have it built by one of the many ailing fabshops in the area. It would be of and by Detroit. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 277 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think the more important questions to ask are where is the art work now and how are the students benefiting from it? My prediction is that this art work will be lost or stolen and will eventually disappear. The only people who will benefit are the artists and the gallery. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 174 Registered: 10-2003 |
When I went to CCS, we did not have actual artwork to discuss. We studied slides of actual artwork projected on a screen. And CCS has lots of money. Yes, I know the DIA is right next to CCS, but we wanted to look at more than just their collection, naturally. If an Art College doesn't need to spend $1.5 million on artwork, neither does the struggling DPS. When you study architecture, you don't buy buildings. When you study physics, you don't pay Sagan to come teach it to you. You use books and slides. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 347 Registered: 07-2005 |
It would be nice to have those things, but other things are more important, like teachers to teach the students, and materials to help the teachers teach, and decent buildings to teach in. I think those things have the priority. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 283 Registered: 08-2006 |
Quote I believe excellent school districts show their students fine art by bringing the students to where the art is, not by bringing the art to where the students are. I think there is something to be said for having students learn in an environment surrounded by art. Think about the potential. The meaning and content of the work can have a positive influence that is a constant reminder to the students on a daily basis, instead of just occurring on a one time basis with a trip to the museum which may not have as much of a long term impact. Also, If you just limit a students exposure to art at the museum your establishing a guideline, boundary, and definition of what art is and that it can only exist and reside in the space of a museum. While, in fact, art is everywhere around them from architecture to design, fashion, etc. Quote This artwork does not highlight DPS student talent. This may not be the case but doesn't it give the students something to aspire to and possibly identify with. I believe at the current moment this was probably not a wise decision by the DPS and I realize the money spent on the art could have been applied to building maintenance or whatever, but I'm afraid that some of you may have a shortsighted view of the power and potential of art to effect a students life and future not only in Detroit but anywhere. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4553 Registered: 11-2004 |
Johnlodge, I think what artwork you're referring to is also in respects to art history. Of course there's the practicality of not having every piece of artwork readily available to you but at CCS you did have access to actual pieces of art to discuss. And prior to last year's endowment gift from Josephine Ford of $50 million to the College, when was CCS deemed to have "lots of money"? Do you realize how much of that college functioned just on the basis of tuition alone from year to year? When Wally Ford passed away the school was on the verge of closing down because of the lack of funds. I think you'd better do a little bit more research into CCS funds before you can say it has lots of money. You also have to look at accessibility to art. At CCS and other viable art programs, you can get to an example of art to discuss. The DPS schools themselves are practically devoid of art and barely have any access to it in the form of actual pieces, slides or books. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2094 Registered: 06-2004 |
Southwestmap has raised the proper issue: Another city expenditure benefitting friends of the Kilpatricks. And another mis-allocation of your dollars that will go unpunished. But what do I know? I am a quitter... | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2003 |
Smogboy, don't tell me about research. No, we didn't have actual pieces of art to discuss. Don't tell me we did, because I went there. So YOU go do your research. And we also had LOTS of money. Maybe not BEFORE I was there, but while we were there we did. We had Herman-Miller aeron chairs at every computer in the senior studios. We had the best macs out there. Tuition had been rising at the same time as enrollment. If you don't like my opinions, fine, but don't try to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about when I experienced it firsthand and you didn't. Thanks. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 284 Registered: 08-2006 |
If an Art College doesn't need to spend $1.5 million on artwork, neither does the struggling DPS. An art college doesn't need to buy art because, like you said, they have dedicated classes and requirements to learn about it. That is why the students are there. DPS students don't have this opportunity. The funding for art based curriculum is being cut all the time and would likely cost much more on an annual basis then the $1.5M spent on art one year. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3069 Registered: 10-2003 |
The more things change, the more they remain the same. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4554 Registered: 11-2004 |
Johnlodge, what do you mean you had actual art pieces in front of you to discuss (the kids in the DPS don't). As far as CCS having LOTS of money- the Josephine Ford endowment money just came last year, so unless you're a baby faced freshman, I don't see how you could say that CCS was loaded. Every year prior to that CCS depended on its tuition to cover 70-80% of its operating expenses. Tuition HAD to go up in order to cover their operational budget beyond trying to expand the programs. Tuition has been going up at CCS as long as its been around and even back then, it wasn't enough to cover the school's bills. Enrollment has never peaked over 1250 students and it's been that way since the early 1980's. And before you make that asinine statement about me not having attended CCS, yes- I did attend and am still a part of that community. I, too experienced CCS firsthand, have seen the books, and still very affiliated with the place. So don't lob out these blanket elitist statements at people you really have no idea about. So thank you. Now back to the regularly scheduled thread. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4556 Registered: 11-2004 |
Well said Stecks77. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 216 Registered: 12-2006 |
If your family was struggling to pay its electric bill, and your roof leaked and needed repair, and one of the two adults living in the house had lost his or her job, is that the time when you'd decide to buy some new music CDs? Just curious. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 285 Registered: 08-2006 |
Professorscott: We get it already. Yes, yes, we know, your point has been made by many and well understood. I'm just debating the the value of having art within the walls of a learning institution rather then just in a museum where it may be since at most once a year by students. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 610 Registered: 06-2005 |
Exactly what Barnesfoto said, "The more things change, the more they remain the same." DPS needs to 'clean-house' completely, starting from the top of the stack. Just incredible how they spend money that they 'supposedly' do not have when it comes to keeping schools open and running. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 713 Registered: 01-2005 |
Stecks77: why do you want to debate about what is obviously an unaffordable luxury. I would like to own an impressionist painting. I can't afford it. It would be good for me, too, to have something so beautiful and challenging around me. No debate. In my circumstances, though, the ROI wouldn't be there. I used to teach in a City school with no art at all -just student art. I hope that I made beauty enter into my student's lives by insuring order, quiet, serenity, good books, gentle sounds, soft words, a clean classroom. Once, a class I taught in first grade was graduating. I woke up in the middle of the night to a crowd of big high school seniors singing softly on my front lawn "Button up your overcoat when the wind blows free, take good care of yourself, you belong to me.' It was a song I sang when I buttoned them up and helped them with their boots. Really, take it from me - gallery art on the walls is way down the list for helping students appreciate beauty. I wonder why they didn't just go to some of the prestigious artists who are DPS graduates and ask them for a donation to their former schools. That would have been inspiring to students. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 611 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote: Isn't it a moot point to debate about the 'value' of having physical art pieces on the walls - when there aren't even walls for some of these students facing school closures ?!? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 436 Registered: 04-2006 |
I remember being in DPS schools less than 10 years ago and having to wear coats in the winter because some classrooms were that cold. I remember taking the ACTs in a 100+ degree classroom because the air conditioner was malfunctioning in the DPS school I was scheduled to take it during the midst of a heat wave. I remember the marching bands not having uniforms but instead having to march in matching sweats and t-shirts that the kids purchased themselves. I remember the sports teams paying for uniforms and equipment through junk food sales. I've been there, I know all about it. I know that they do have serious budget issues and that makes this that much worse. The DIA is a world class institution, and if they don't go there Detroit has plenty of other cultural institutions to expose the kids to. As far as I'm concerned, there show be no "artwork" budget in DPS right now. Where are they going to put it? How are they gonna evenly distribute the "culture" among all of the 100K+ students? The school buildings are falling apart from the foundation up. When these pieces of artwork get ruined by the elements that they'll undoubtedly be exposed to, then what? | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2495 Registered: 10-2003 |
Great art is supposed to make one think. Imagine the thoughts generated in a student's mind when they think about the juxtaposition of an expensive piece of art hanging on a water damaged, crumbling wall in a cold, drafty classroom with 45 other students sardined together while they share one obsolete textbook for every three students. Will they ponder the beauty of the art, or will they question the system that thinks funneling $1.6 million of hard-earned taxpayer money to a favored art gallery is better than taking care of the educational basics first? Hmmm, perhaps they will learn a valuable lesson, just not about art. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2096 Registered: 06-2004 |
Thanks Track75. Pretty much nothing else to be said here. Please move along. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 286 Registered: 08-2006 |
Southwestmap: I believe I made it clear in my previous posts that in light of the DPS fiscal crisis I did not exactly support this spending choice. I simply disagreed with a few of the comments which suggested that simply seeing art in the museum "maybe" once a year was good enough for student education and inspiration. I find it sad that you claim art is an unaffordable luxury and I hope you did not pass this along to your students. This is not true. It is only an unaffordable luxury if you choose to limit the definition of art to Impressionist painting or gallery art. I choose to see what art is in very broad terms and it can be purchased and obtained at a variety of levels. Something can be called and appreciated as art even if it cost you only a dollar. This is what should be taught to students. Art is something that anyone can create, appreciate, and afford. You may have placed art way down on the list when helping students appreciate beauty, but by using art you could have illustrated to your students how some artists interpret beauty and help others to see aspects of the world around them that they may not have noticed, witnessed, valued, or even considered beautiful if it wasn't for what they created. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 653 Registered: 06-2006 |
I don't know...I agree with Smogboy's point about football equipment...certain people don't grasp the importance of learning the arts as much as they do sports... But at the same time, this does seem rather wasteful...students can lean about art just as easily by looking at pictures online on the computer...and if they don't have the computers, then they can buy them with the $1.5 million they spent instead of using it to buy some wall decorations | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 437 Registered: 04-2006 |
I think we should also take the word "taxpayer" out of this discussion. It really is irrelevant right now. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 287 Registered: 08-2006 |
"students can lean about art just as easily by looking at pictures online on the computer..." Your kidding right? Can I learn enough about football if I look at ESPN.com and never play or attend a game? FYI - I would have supported the purchase of computers instead. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3691 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well lets just hope that they put the artwork in climate controlled conditions that it requires.... (LOL at the absurdity of such a notion by a school district that can't even keep their schools heated or cooled via climate controls) Let's revisit this in 10 years to see just how well taken care of their artwork is... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 655 Registered: 06-2006 |
Stecks: That's a lousy comparison since artwork is measured by its aesthetic properties, which is something that can be observed by viewing a high-res image on a piece of paper or a PC...no, it's not exactly the same thing as viewing it in person, but it's an adequate substitute for a school district that has problems heating its classrooms | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2497 Registered: 10-2003 |
The artwork will probably be well taken care of (on the wall of some school board member's home in PW or IV.) | ||
Traxus Member Username: Traxus Post Number: 64 Registered: 02-2006 |
Art is a lie that tells the truth. I think track75 nailed that one on the head above. I'm sorry, but neither of the schools I attended in Detroit had any art on the walls beyond what the students had made. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2097 Registered: 06-2004 |
People -- The purchase of art is not the issue. That would be a choice of the school board, and we could debate it as a good or bad decision. The bigger issue is the purchase of it from 1 gallery - a gallery that has benefitted in the past from city funded purchases, and a gallery that is owned by a friend of the program. As long as such dollars are able to be directed and not properly vetted, the bad business justifications for them will continue. Root cause vs. Symptom. "Dr. I have major internal bleeding, I am coughing up blood, and the left side of my body is numb." "Hmmm....would you like an aspirin?" | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8391 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: $0 - this type of ignorance or arrogance (not sure which) needs to stop immediately. I hope the new Superintendent kicks some ass. | ||
Peter Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2007 |
In it's present state DPS has no right or reason to spend that much money on a painting. They must first focus on the core and straighten that out before they start investing in luxuries. Spending that money on something like computers or building improvements would have a direct and positive effect on the students and faculty of DPS. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 288 Registered: 08-2006 |
Thejesus: I don't think its a lousy comparison at all. The final score may be the measure of who won the football game but don't sportscasters also talk about and describe the game in an aesthetic manner? Going to a football game isn't an aesthetic experience? Are there no beautiful, ugly , or sublime moments that occur during the course of a football game that communicate the underlying principles and emotions of the game? Football is a very beautiful game and in order to truly appreciate it you must experience it first hand just like an art object which also has physical characteristics such as size, material, scale, and texture that must be observed in person in order to gain a full apreciation of its value and importance. I don't think a high resolution photo of a sculpture is adequate. Its a three dimensional form. Can you truly appreciate sculpture and understand it by looking at a 8x11 photo? What about the scale of a sculpture? The Washington monument is considered a sculpture and in order to fully appreciate it you must see it in person. You can learn about what it is in a photo but you'll never truly understand the power of its presence unless you see it first hand. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 89 Registered: 02-2007 |
I did not have time to read every post but..... In 2001 Detroit opened some new "show piece" schools. These are the schools they purchased the artwork for. I used to work in one of these schools. The art looked nice hung in the hallways...the school had a very large art room with big tables...the school had no art teacher. When confronting the principal about why not he surly would respond that art is not on the MEAP test. Another teacher at D.P.S. stated "Just pretend you're in a cartoon everyday and go home at 3:30." Thus meaning that not much that D.P.S does makes sense in the real world. | ||
Traxus Member Username: Traxus Post Number: 66 Registered: 02-2006 |
Dabirch, good point, so what your saying is, we really need to focus on how to get OUR art into that gallery? Blackmail anyone? | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2099 Registered: 06-2004 |
Traxus - F.O.P. status can move a lot of art. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8398 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I disagee. I think the fact that they are willing to spend money on art when books need to be supplied is more important than the single gallery purchase. Take away the misuse of the money and there is no debate about where it came from. For districts in financial shape then I may be able to support art if it is an asset. In the case of DPS if the money is not going to books, resources, computers, maintenance, additional programs, etc it is wasted. Same goes with the city of Detroit. I love art but I think paying my mortgage is more important. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4559 Registered: 11-2004 |
For clarity's sake, the money was not spent on ONE painting as stated in the title of this thread, instead there were a multitude of pieces- some were commissions to do art in certain DPS buildings as reported by the Freep days ago. So before people blow a gasket thinking that the DPS bought just one lone piece- they didn't. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8399 Registered: 10-2003 |
Tru ebut it is still $1 MM spent on art, not students or resources, | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2100 Registered: 06-2004 |
Jt1 -- My point was that as long as there are deep seated process issues in the way our government runs itself -- gaping exploitative holes -- money will continue to be mis-spent and mis-allocated. Correct the process, then each purchase will have to be business justified, through some sort of subjective and objective criteria, and responsibility and accountability will mean something. Post-facto bitching about how the money is spent will not solve the problems any more than giving somebody dying of a gunshot wound to the head a band-aid would. The issue IS the root cause. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 4561 Registered: 11-2004 |
It depends on how you classify the art's usage Jt1. Like I had mentioned earlier, to the school art teacher having a physical piece of artwork there for their students to relate to could be argued as being as valid as an English teacher having the proper textbooks. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 935 Registered: 06-2006 |
The artwork was for Cass and another school. DPS has MANY talented kids who could have produced artwork if they just wanted to hang art in the halls. If kids need exposure to art, field trips to DIA and other "artsy" places could be arranged. Spending that much on artwork is depressing considering my kids don't have desks and books. Original artwork is not needed for kids to have an appreciation for art. A copy could have sufficed. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 658 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Original artwork is not needed for kids to have an appreciation for art." Exactly...and it's especially true when it replaces desks and books...you nailed it DT | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 91 Registered: 02-2007 |
I agree...show off student artwork. The money was wasted. 1.5 million could pay about 12 teachers for a year...books....etc..etc... | ||
Leoqueen Member Username: Leoqueen Post Number: 1489 Registered: 07-2004 |
I came late to this discussion, and, admittedly, have not read all of the posts. My daughter attends the new Cass Technical High School, one of the new structures that has original art hanging in the halls and offices. I have been in the building for parent meetings and conferences, and enjoy seeing the work hanging there. I also like the fact that my daughter and her peers can be influenced positively by the art. I have been involved with the concept of arts-inclusive education, and have participated in curriculum meetings at Golightly Middle school, where this type of rubric is utilized. Art is folded into the study of math, science, english, social studies, languages. The desired outcome is to have creative efforts seen as an integral part of one's life. So I am all for it. And the fact that I am one of the artists with art hanging in Cass Tech makes me even more for it. I wanted to make this statement to clarify my position but I will not get involved in any circular argument about art vs bread or art vs leaky roofs. I dont know all of the particulars, but I DO know that I wont learn anything from either of the daily fish wraps. The 'investigative reporter' who wrote the article interviewed me at length last week, but decided not to use any of my quotes. I wonder why. | ||
Leoqueen Member Username: Leoqueen Post Number: 1490 Registered: 07-2004 |
Just a few words about CCS, though......we think it is so important that our students see REAL art, up close and personal, that we take them to New York, Chicago, Pittsburgh, etc, to experience first hand what the contemporary art they are studying looks like. Slides or projected digital images flashed on a screen in a dark room is a mere introduction to the "look" of the work, but doesnt communicate the passion. Squinting at Pollock's NUMBER ONE on a computer screen doesnt compare to the thrill of standing in front of it for the first time. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 120 Registered: 11-2006 |
One word....Obscene. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 438 Registered: 04-2006 |
Pittsburgh? | ||
Leoqueen Member Username: Leoqueen Post Number: 1491 Registered: 07-2004 |
Yes, Pittsburgh. The Andy Warhol Museum, the Mattress Factory Contemporary Art Museum, Carnegie Museum of Art, Carnegie Museum of Natural History, Frick Art & Historical Center, to name just a few. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 220 Registered: 03-2006 |
Damn right Pittsburgh, a city much like Detroit, blue collar and a lot of coal and steel money. Thats kind of like a Pittsburgh guy saying, "Detroit?" | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 439 Registered: 04-2006 |
Well first, Pittsburgh has never been in the same class as Detroit. Second, Pittsburgh REALLY isn't in the same class as New York and Chicago. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be snobbish. I think Pittsburgh is a nice smaller city. But let's have a little more respect for the D than that. | ||
Thames Member Username: Thames Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2007 |
From what is being reported, the purchase was made from bond money that was approved by voters to build or repair decaying schools. If that is the case, then the money was misspent. The purchase is indefensible. If they want to purchase art, then a separate bond issue should be approved by voters. I wonder if such a bond would ever pass? | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 715 Registered: 01-2005 |
Another issue: obviously this purchase was a cynical one. The gallery owner is a good friend of the Mayor's father. Thought to be a "very good" friend. How did the Mayor have such influence over the DPS as to make this deal happen? Isn't the DPS independent of the Mayor and isolated from such political pressure as he may apply? This incident makes it clear that there are close ties between the DPS and the Executive office. Recently the two candidates for the super's job were put into an interview situation with the Mayor - although he is not their employer and should not have any say in who gets hired. Cynics believe that the interviews were so that the Mayor could establish his real authority over the candidates- two women from small towns with no real preparation for what will befall them here when they get thrown into the political mud pit. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3072 Registered: 10-2003 |
While I am an advocate of Art-Centered education, and an advocate of placing art in schools (I attended DPS schools decorated with Pewabic Tile and I believe that the elegance of these old buildings made me appreciate historical architecture) I would wonder why money could not be spent sending actual artists into the schools to work with students...It is one thing to admire a painting on the wall, but having the painter in the school showing the students how to paint is a much more meaningful experience. If the DPS wanted to buy artwork to hang in schools, they could easily have announced a competition, had artists submit entries, and had a jury of local artists (or even dps students!) make the selections... But that would have, of course, cut out the commission from the gallery owner/friend of the Kilpatrick family. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 164 Registered: 03-2006 |
Clearly the paintings should be returned and a refund issued by the seller. It is an obvious scam. It is also not the job of the schools to turn the hallways into art galleries. They aren't even succeeding in teaching kids the fundamentals much less "art appreciation." This is a great example of why government sucks at everything it does, yet liberals constantly want to give even more power and responsibility to these corrupt, sloppy, incompetent bureaucrats who rip us off and only make things worse. It is time that government get out of the education business and allow for competition and accountability in the system. Their failure is complete. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2107 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Put the pipe down and open your eyes. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 332 Registered: 11-2005 |
I agree with what many have said: Novi schools can afford to do this; Detroit schools cannot. At least $1.6 million. For art. And while what qualifies for good art is in the eye of the beholder, I think most people would say that this does not: http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/p bcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C4&Date=20 070227&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=7 02270330&Ref=AR&Profile=1003 That one is hanging in Cass Tech. And the fact that this was taxpayer-funded bond money for renovations to crumbling schools... ARGH!!! | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3075 Registered: 10-2003 |
wow! outsider art! | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 441 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2107 Registered: 06-2004" Who are you? | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2108 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Somebody who has spent enough time in Pittsburgh to understand that it has a great art scene, a thriving cultural scene, numerous universities, great neighborhoods, a great educational system, a very good and diverse economy, steeped in as much history as Detroit, an unbelievable collection of pre-deco architecture, and know that you are probably right Pittsburgh is not in the same class as Detroit. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 165 Registered: 03-2006 |
I am sure the students could have done a better painting than the one in the photo. Even though the school doesn't have the funds to offer art classes because they blew their money on shitty art bought from one of Kwame's cronies. This is a disgrace. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on February 27, 2007) | ||
Spitty Member Username: Spitty Post Number: 533 Registered: 07-2004 |
That guys glasses don't even match each other in the painting and that football helmet looks like a space helmet. And what, he couldn't paint Joe Louis so he drew the Arena? What a shitty painting. I could do a better painting than that with my butt and I'm not even an artist. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3705 Registered: 10-2003 |
$1.5 million for art may sound like a lot but in the scope of an entire budget it is neither a lot of or out of line what might go down if, say, a Compuware was acquiring work for it new HQ. If you are willing to omit the acquisition of art for the interior of a building, then you should really be screaming your heads off about any architectural ornamentation and demanding that only bland unpainted windowless boxes be designed for schools because that would be least expensive and most energy efficient solution. Does anyone have details of what the DPS got for its money and where it is? From what I gather from above it went to decorate the new schools. As I gather, unconfirmed, from above Sherry Washington had the contract for the acquisitions. If so, friend of Kilpatrick or not, she definitely has the credentials, status and long term presence in the city with her gallery on Library Street to more that qualify her for a contract of that size and specialization. Then the questions that should be asked are, was this contract put up for bid, was the percentage SW took in line with what any interior decorator would take, was the artwork acquired that of recognized artists [such as Leoqueen], was the price she acquired the work from the artists the current price the artists are selling their work for? Who can answer those questions? For your memory SW also did the contract for Cobo Hall that caused L Brooks to blow a gasket last year. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 442 Registered: 04-2006 |
Pittsburgh with as much history as Detroit? Pipe dreaming! I'm not gonna go tit for tat over this. I don't think Pittsburgh is a bad place at all. But let's be real here... New York it is not. Chicago it has never been. Detroit, it could only dream of the name recognition. When it comes down to it, on a global scale there are really only a handful of American cities where the name is recognized worldwide. Say what you want about the current situation, but Detroit is one of those cities. Pittsburgh is not. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2109 Registered: 06-2004 |
Iheartthed: I really should not have gotten into this. When I stop responding, you will walk away with some sort of glib sense of self-satisfaction. When the actual reason was because, well, I just don't feel like wasting my time with somebody who has no clue about which he speaks. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 776 Registered: 07-2004 |
A few questions: If art is so important for kids, why are they taking art classes where they have to draw on the back of Kroger bags? If the art from Sherry Washington Gallery is worth $1 million, has an insurance agent and an art appraiser looked the work over? | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 723 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't think that the art purchase is out of line at all. Over a dozen new schools were built and dozens more were renovated with the same bond money that paid for the art purchase. $1 million was a tiny fraction of the total budget. If you assume there only 100 teachers and administrators in the entire DPS that are useless and incompetent and need to be replaced, the district is wasting an amount every semester that far exceeds that paltry art budget. There is nothing wrong with putting art in school buildings. Was it absolutely essential to do so? Perhaps not. But maybe it wasn't essential to landscape the buildings either. Why do kids need shrubs around their schools. I wonder how much was spent on shrubs. Did the new hallways really need to be painted in order for the kids to learn? The cement blocks used for partition walls in all schools nowadays don't have to be painted. I wonder how many millions were paid to painting contractors. Completely unnecessary, right? There is not such a bright line between an essential expenditure and a waste as some might suggest. Placing art in schools shows the students that the adults consider these places and what goes on in them important. From what I understand, none of the individual pieces constituted that extravagant of a purchase. When the adults create visually pleasing and well maintained places for kids to learn, the kids will be more apt to do so. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 443 Registered: 04-2006 |
"When I stop responding, you will walk away with some sort of glib sense of self-satisfaction." Ahh, thank you. Now my life is validated. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 473 Registered: 01-2005 |
I was initially appalled at the idea. However, there have been some valid arguments here for justifying the purchases, if not the method of acquiring the art. If they had to do it, they should have bought Lowell's stuff and commissioned him to do more. Why not blow up pictures of Detroit's Ruins and display them w/ appropriate comments? There's a lot of stuff that qualifies as really good art on this site and it relates to Detroit. The kids could learn a lot from urban art, their everyday lives seen from a different perspective. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 327 Registered: 02-2006 |
That painting in the Free Press this morning sucked. There are probably over 100 students at Cass Tech that could have done a way better job. If they want arty in the schools why not have the schools art program do the job? Oh, too easy and cheap. | ||
Thames Member Username: Thames Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2007 |
Interior decorating=building repairs? WTF??? The money used to purchase this art was bond money that was approved by the voters to REPAIR BUILDINGS! WTF is so hard to grasp? Have another damn bond issue for 1.6 million to purchase art. See if it passes. It's bullshit and of course Kwame's name or one of his cronies names is once again attached to a shady money grab. If you gave a contractor money to do structural repairs on your home and he spent some of it on artwork for you to hang in your living room, wouldn't you be pissed off? Wouldn't you say, that's not what I gave you the money for? Wouldn't you demand that he take it back and use the money to do what you allocated it for? Explain it away all you want. IT WAS WRONG. If everyone wants this art in the school, then fine. Approve another bond for art. This is not OK. Everything about this is wrong, the money WAS NOT given to the district to purchase art, it was given to the district for structural repairs. Why dismiss the facts? Why condone these actions? I just don't get it. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 166 Registered: 03-2006 |
Well said Thames, I cannot believe that people are trying to justify this total waste. I am positive there would have been more than a few local artists who would have been happy to donate some pieces, or some well-off folks who would have kicked in some of their art or money to buy some. Whether the art dealer has "credentials" or not is a matter of opinion but it doesn't matter. The whole thing is very suspect given her connection to the Kilpatrick family. They should have known that but their arrogance and greed must have clouded their judgement. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 936 Registered: 06-2006 |
At Cooley we have wonderful murals done by our art students on whole walls of the school. They are in the halls (and the kids will deface everything but those murals). Our art students do any and all artwork hanging in the office and the halls. From the photos I've seen of the "art" hanging in Cass, Cooley art students could have produced much better looking art. I think the art that was purchased will soon be defaced or stolen from those hallways especially when kids read how much it's worth (ok, adults too for that matter). Gee, come to think of it, we have an "art" centered school that could have been commissioned to produce work for hallways. | ||
Romanized Member Username: Romanized Post Number: 217 Registered: 02-2005 |
All that's left to be said is, "No wonder." The country looks on and says, "No wonder why this city is so screwed." | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 10 Registered: 08-2006 |
I went to Cass and was involved in the Art Program. I would have rather had money for supplies than the art. Like others have said, the DIA and other venues is where we went to see orignal pieces. I smell a RAT. Sherry Washington should have donated the work to the Schools. She has enough money. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 167 Registered: 03-2006 |
Detroitteacher - "At Cooley we have wonderful murals done by our art students on whole walls of the school." Totally agree - I thought about that myself after I posted my entry. That would have been the best approach and the fact the students made them would instill pride. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 291 Registered: 02-2006 |
Is there anyone on this forum that has a child in the DPS? If so, ask them if they have seen the art yet. No other large school system in nation spends money on art work like Detroit. This makes me sick to my stomach. 313 | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 677 Registered: 06-2006 |
Detroit313: Excellent question to ask...I'm also wondering how they plan to keep expensive art like this on display and also keep it safe from thieves at the same time...it seems to me that spending large amounts of money on art defeats the intended purpose of benefiting the students since it's not something you can simply hang on the wall in the artroom or in the hallway | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2006 |
This needs to be investigated. I smell a RAT. Someone is making money off this deal. I feel so sorry the students of the DPS. Improve the enviroment for the students first. Then decorate the schools. I would like to know what was Sherry Washington's commission on the sale. Could it be 40% which is what a gallery charges. | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2006 |
You're right Pg313. This is Detroit's version of Chicago style politics. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2006 |
Use the Million for the lunch program, books, after school programs, things that the students really need. I love art and I agree that art does enrich the soul and it is needed. But there are other uses that the money could have and should have been used for. If your house had a leaky roof and broke windows and no furniture would you buy art for your walls? No, you would fix your place first. This is Bull-shit | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 682 Registered: 06-2006 |
anyone have any ideas as to why the media hasn't reported any more on this? | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2006 |
This is taxpayer money not private funds. What and how do we bring more attention to this. I can't belive my money went to something like this. This is utter Bull-shit. I wish I could put my tax money in some sort of escrow account to show my displeasure. I read the article in the Free Press. It said Sherry Washington got up to 50% comm. on some of the pieces. Again the students are the ones who suffer. Know wonder this city is a shit hole. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2655 Registered: 10-2004 |
This caper wasn't done for art's sake. It's obvious that it's another sweetheart deal with cronies at DPS. The commissions paid for this scam (20% to 50%) amount to something like $300,000 to $800,000 if that part of the story in the paper is correct. Let's just see who in DPS or the city government greased the way and see how closely some might be related (through business or by blood or marriage) to the common council members, DPS, or the mayor's office. It's bound to be in at least one of these areas. This shouldn't be that hard to trace. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2006 |
Well said Livernoisyard. I always enjoy your posts. Do we call the media? And if so what do we tell them? All Detroit taxpayers should be up in arms over this. I know there our bigger matters, but let us start somewhere. We need to hold these people accountable. Do the leaders think that we are just stupid and will not say anything? Come on folks. Everyone was screaming about the Red Navigator. That is beans compared to the million that was just blown on art. How many new roofs would a million $$ cover. How many kids could get a lunch for a million $$. How many new comfortable desks could you get for a million $$? I am just outraged......... | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2006 |
The School Board is Criminal in this matter. The Mayors Office is Criminal in this matter. And Sherry Washington Gallery is Criminal in this matter. And if we don't expose these criminals we to are criminals. (Message edited by pussygirl313 on February 28, 2007) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2657 Registered: 10-2004 |
One might see how the criminal minds work on this one: Who's ever going to notice 1/10 of 1% of the school bond issue being monitored that closely for those art purchases with the intent of collecting the commissions? Especially if those purchases were spread over such a relatively long time span. But they did get caught. It would appear that Washington wouldn't be able to cover for herself, let alone for others, if unrelenting pressure were put upon her. (Message edited by livernoisyard on February 28, 2007) | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 1190 Registered: 06-2005 |
The board should have invested that money for purchasing materials and supplies that would allow for the students to create their own artwork. I am sure that the students would have benefit from participating/creating over than observing. My children's school doesn't even have art as a subject. This is just another example of outsiders squeezing milk out the DPS cash cow...at taxpayers expense. Sheeeesh | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 938 Registered: 06-2006 |
I just heard that some of the artwork is already unaccounted for...did we see THIS coming? | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2007 |
Heck, they should of sent that 1 MILLION dollars on teaching the students to make paintings for them | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 186 Registered: 10-2003 |
Bump. Let's not forget about this one, even though the media has. I found this link at DetroitNow, where of course they were also all outraged about this. It's an old article, but relevant, Look at the date and read. http://www.bridges4kids.org/ar ticles/12-02/DetroitNews12-5-0 2b.html | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 187 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sherry Washington is founder of Sherry Washington Gallery. Ms. Washington, the youngest of 15 children born to the late William Taft Washington and Virginia Hall Washington, was born and raised in Detroit and matriculated through the Detroit Public School system. At the age of 16, she began her freshman year at the University of Michigan from which was graduated in 1977 with honors and a degree in General Studies. Ms. Washington for several years served the City of Detroit as an administrator in the Office of Contract Compliance. During this same period she discovered her love of and appreciation for fine art and an uncanny acumen for understanding both art and the world of art. With panache, a committed devotion and a seriousness that would serve her well, Ms. Washington ventured into the world of art as a business. In its fledging days, when Ms. Washington still worked her "day job," was still raising her son and was attempting to establish a Gallery of which Detroit could be proud, the Gallery drew some of the world's most celebrated artists, including artists whose works were frequently commissioned or procured by the world's finest museums. Many of these artists were drawn to the owner's dedication to art, to her professionalism, and to her commitment to the artists whom the eponymous gallery represented. Ms. Washington is community-minded and believes in being where needed and when. She gives countless hours to returning Detroit to its status as a world class city. She has returned to her alma mater in Detroit to encourage the many high school students, generations behind her. Ms. Washington has often expressed her love for the City, and mostly by her actions. She sits on the boards of several Detroit-based institutions including: Board Memberships and Community Service: • Detroit Public Schools - Detroit School of the Arts • Downtown Development Authority • Detroit Public Library Commission • Black Women Contracting Association, Inc. • Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. • The Detroit Athletic Club (DAC) • The Detroit Institute of Arts, Friends of African and African American Art • Music Hall Center for the Performing Arts • Detroit International Jazz Festival From her website. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 940 Registered: 06-2006 |
I don't care WHO this woman is or what she does. It isn't HER fault for DPS mismanaging their precious resources on horrible art. I was discussing this with my students and they are outraged (as a few sat on my desk because there weren't enough desks). Here is what my kids proposed: DPS should have held an art contest where students winning the competition would have had their art hanging in hallways across the district. The winning students would receive scholarship funds for school as a "prize" and maybe be featured in a magazine or news article. Everyone would come out on top in that situation. Leave it to the kids to be logical about the whole thing and come up with the best plan. Perhaps we SHOULD start listening to the kids...a million dollars could have gone a LONG way and would have been better spent on investing in DPS kids. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 17 Registered: 08-2006 |
She sits on the board of the Detroit School of the Arts. And she sells the DPS art and receives a commission. Thats a problem. She is to blame. And so is the School Board. Does she sit on the board to help the students or to enrich herself? Are school board members paid? And if so how much? Are those jobs full-time? Someone else posted that some of the art can not be located. Is this true? The art should be returned. And the money gave back to the schools. Who does the school board anwser to? | ||
Leoqueen Member Username: Leoqueen Post Number: 1494 Registered: 07-2004 |
"..........horrible art" I need to say something here in defense of myself and the other artists. The example that was given in the newspaper of the art purchased was NOT representative of the true caliber of the total collection. I saw many of the works in progress, and I know the reputations of the artists. They are great works, and many of them are museum caliber. The people who chose the imagery for the article knew that their argument would be better served if they chose a weaker piece. This is propaganda at its worst. I am not going enter into the discussion about roofs, or supplies, or teachers salaries, or any of that. The politics of this situation is disturbing, and it is long after the fact, and separate from, the creation of the works. I WILL tell you all that, to a person, the artists who were engaged in these commissions were thrilled that their works would be seen, LIVED WITH, young people. As a teacher myself it was a double thrill. I have been following this thread with interest, and decided that after my first entry that I would lurk for the remainder. But I couldnt let that "horrible art" comment go by. The beauty of art may be in the eye of the beholder, but in this case the eye is clouded by misinformation. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2006 |
I agree with Leoqueen. The quality or type of the art is not the issue. The issue is the money. And how it was wasted on something that it should not have been. The money was for renovation. Pockets were lined at the expense of the kids. This was not for the kids. If it was, the kids would have been involved. I agree with the other posts that the kids should have created the art. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2662 Registered: 10-2004 |
DT, can't you see the real problem--the $300,000 to $800,000 paid to art dealers (20% to 50% commission rate * $1.6 million)??? That's a rather large chunk of change for such a dysfunctional school district to pay. Reputable art dealers would have donated their commissions to schools instead of feeding themselves at the public trough at the taxpayers' expense. It must appear to outsiders as being incredible how so many Detroiters don't grasp the obvious. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2006 |
Amen Livernois. Amen. | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 27 Registered: 03-2005 |
Did I miss something? From what I saw in the article, nobody knows 1. where the art is on display, 2. how much was actually bought, and 3. who authorized the purchases. This smells like a scandal, indeed. Somebody's political buddy has made a bunch of money from the taxpayers, and there is absolutely no accountability. I'd bet the pieces are hanging in some board member/politician's home, if they exist at all. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 942 Registered: 06-2006 |
LY: I do understand the issue of commission, etc. I am just outraged at the whole situation and that outrage is showing in my posts. Leo: Yes, I was hasty in saying the horrible art comment. I apologize, didn't mean to offend. I haven't seen much of the artwork but from what I did see, it's not that great and I've seen better work from DPS kids. | ||
Leoqueen Member Username: Leoqueen Post Number: 1495 Registered: 07-2004 |
Detroitteacher:Thank you for understanding. I considered sharing with the Forum the names of some of the artists, because their works and reputation in the community are stellar, but I didnt want to open them up to the kind of subtle harassment that I have gotten because of my visibility. Suffice it to say I understand the anger. But all I ask is that people understand that the Arts have always been very convenient and historically used "whipping boy" whenever the powers-that-be want to make a point, or have a deeper target. Its just not "sexy" enough to talk about the monies that may have been spent on other, more mundane and less visible items. Whom or what these targets are, I dont want to speculate publicly. But the "art story" has done its job, and will gradually dropped by the media as a flash point. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 20 Registered: 08-2006 |
Leoqueen: This has nothing to do with The Arts being the "whipping boy" It is about money being use for something it was not intended to be use for. Do you not feel guilty for getting some of that misused money? Anyone who received funds connected with this is guilty. I hope this issue is not dropped. Folks need to go to jail for this. utter bull-shit is what it is. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 696 Registered: 06-2006 |
That's it...I'm calling my contact at Channel 4 to see why this story died so early...seems like there would be a ton of public interest in getting to the bottom of this... and I would suggest everyone in this thread send an email to request that they report further on this story...link to the story in your message so they know what you're talking about http://www.clickondetroit.com/ contact/index.html Here's the one for Fox 2 as well... http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/my fox/pages/InsideFox/ContactUs? pageId=5.11 | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 192 Registered: 10-2003 |
I just fired off e-mails to both stations. Thanks for the links. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3103 Registered: 10-2003 |
Leoqueen makes a good point about art being the whipping boy; and it is routine for new buildings to be decorated (usually with cheap prints), BUT when there are so few art classes available for DPS students, it is pretty maddening to think about the money lining some gallery owner's pocket. What's the lesson here for the kids? Art is something that other people do. I hope that we will one day be rid of this kind of "passive learning" mentality. Fortunately, DT uses all this as a real-life (i.e. valuable) lesson for her students. I also wonder how much money was put into renovating buildings that are now facing shutdown, and, in a worst case-scenario, eventual looting by "miners". I'd guess that a lot more money will be down the toilet in this fashion, as well as in the usual "contractors who are friends of the deciders method"...Remember how a state takeover was supposed to solve all the problems? | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 307 Registered: 07-2005 |
I did not want to start a new thread for this question: Where in Detroit was Immaculata High School located? Thanks. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 21 Registered: 08-2006 |
This has nothing to do with The Arts being the "whipping boy" It is about money being use for something it was not intended to be use for. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 465 Registered: 06-2005 |
Quozi, Immaculata HS was directly behind Marygrove on the corner of Greenlawn and Marygrove. The building now houses the Bates Academy. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 466 Registered: 06-2005 |
Certainly, a case can be made for not spending any of the bond money on quality design, landscaping, tile work, or art. However, when I stand outside Cheney School (now Cath. Ferguson) and and look at the windows and the brick and tile work, I'm elated that 90 or so years ago, the Detroit Public Schools withstood the short term criticism and spent the money to build and decorate such a school. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 308 Registered: 07-2005 |
Thanks Neilr | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 28 Registered: 03-2005 |
Here's a Detroit News editorial on the topic. Rather scathing, it is. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2666 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: What you should have been discussing with your English lit students are the various predictable results of routine instances of this graft and corruption over the decades. But you have to be able to understand the problem yourself first. Your post implies that you were more concerned about the value of objects purchased instead of the graft involved in this scam... This sale had little to do with art but with the opportunity to stick the taxpayers with overly generous commissions and probably inflated costs thus generating even higher commission costs. There are most certainly other Washington types selling whatever to DPS and getting their cuts. It could just as well have been a million-dollar purchase of copier paper. Get your eyes and mind off the art angle. That's a different matter, and your going off in that direction is what the involved criminals want. Burnley--who bears much of the fault for this fiasco because it originated under his watch--stated that DPS's new goal was to educate their students and not be a source of adult employment. Apparently, there was an oversight under his watch...or he looked the other way and allowed it to happen. Washington's selling art to Cobo Hall should also come under investigation as it's bound to show some parallels with the DPS scandal. Is she the culprit or are other scammers using her gallery and splitting the proceeds? The latter seems most likely as she couldn't pull off this caper by herself. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on March 02, 2007) | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2123 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: 90 years ago Detroit was a city generating cash hand over fist. There was not outcry from spending on the arts -- to the contrary,t he citizens wanted to do everything in their power to make the back water town into a major metropolis. How did they do it? Spend, spend spend. Grand structures, parks, public facilities, parades. Everything to fill the citizens with pride. And it worked for 50 years. The situation then and now is entirely different. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 943 Registered: 06-2006 |
LY: Yes, I understand the whole concept you are trying to get me to understand. What you seem to NOT be understanding is that MY view is a bit different than many on here. I am in the trenches and that money could have been put to better use elsewhere. THAT is MY perspective and if that money could have been used more productively, then that is my focus. It's not that I don't have to "learn it first myself", that topic wasn't what I was trying to get my students to comment on. I wanted their views on this. We have already discussed to corruption of DPS. I was looking for what their views on ALTERNATIVES to the issue of putting the art from professionals into DPS buildings. Did I make myself clear this time on what my intent was with my students? Stop chastising me for "not understanding what the real issue is". I know what it is. I was simply discussing the issue with my students and posted their alternative solution here. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2672 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: DT, your quote implies that Washington was apparently acting as a blameless art dealer instead of allegedly scamming DPS out of hundreds of thousands of dollars in commissions, and quite possibly, the "art works" themselves. Even if I accept your statements in the previous post on their face value as to your motives, it just doesn't agree with your quote above. If I were a DPS teacher, I most certainly would care to know who she was and what she and obviously dozens or hundreds of political cronies before her were up to... | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 944 Registered: 06-2006 |
I place the blame on DPS. It wasn't the art dealer who spent money she didn't have. I don't know the full story on who approached who so I can't place blame on the dealer. An addict usually goes to the source for their drugs, the dealers usually don't go to the addicts. Addicts will steal if they have to (even from their children)...same as DPS. DPS mismanaged, plain and simple. The art dealer could care less where she gets her money. I am not comparing the art dealer to a drug dealer. There is a world of difference. I am comparing DPS (meaning the people who aren't in this for the KIDS) to an addict who will rob from their family to benefit themselves. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 621 Registered: 06-2005 |
I have done my part in requesting further investigations into this matter via Channel 4 WDIV and Channel 7 WXYZ. I urge more forumers to press this issue by contacting the media. Enough is enough, DPS is hurting the future of thousands of children and ripping off thousands of taxpayers. Detroitteacher: "I am comparing DPS (meaning the people who aren't in this for the KIDS) to an addict who will rob from their family to benefit themselves." - Indeed. | ||
Pussygirl313 Member Username: Pussygirl313 Post Number: 22 Registered: 08-2006 |
I also sent emails to the 3 stations. Lets hope they follow up on this. Come everyone let your voices be heard. |
