  Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 717 Registered: 11-2004 |
Capitol Park targeted for revitalization Consultant firm hired for $50,000 March 21, 2007 BY JOHN GALLAGHER FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER Detroit’s Downtown Development Authority took the first step Wednesday toward a hoped-for revitalization of the city’s Capitol Park district. Located between Woodward Avenue and Washington Boulevard, the small enclave is named for being the site of Michigan’s first state capitol in the 19th Century. In recent years, seriously rundown and the site of many abandoned buildings, it has been best known as the location of the downtown bus terminus. But with bus operations moving in 2008 to the planned Rosa Parks Transit Center, the city hopes to revive Capitol Park. On Wednesday, the DDA agreed to hire the Detroit consulting firm Katherine Beebe and Associates to create a preliminary reinvestment strategy for the district. The contract with the firm will cost $50,000, paid for out of DDA planning funds. The work will take four months, after which the DDA and city planners expect to create specific development proposals. Contact JOHN GALLAGHER at gallagher@freepress.com. http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070321/BUSINES S04/70321038 | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 68 Registered: 05-2006 |
Once all is through and through, Capitol Park should become an extremely attractive location for retail and residential. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8596 Registered: 10-2003 |
How quickly will a consultant burn through $50K. Are there defined deliverables or is it just $50K of consulting hours and a we will get what we get situation. From years of working in consulting I can assure you that $50k is very little and will probably result in very little. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2882 Registered: 10-2004 |
$50K is also a suspiciously "neat" figure? What ever happened to sums like $48,491.43? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8599 Registered: 10-2003 |
That is why I suspect that it isn't for specific deliverables but purchasing someone's time. Always dangerous in the consultant game. This is when the "My plan is almost done but I have billed all my hours" type changes come into play. My guess is 250 hours at $200 per hour with no defined deliverables. I hope I am wrong and just being cynical. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2884 Registered: 10-2004 |
Any neat and clean figure could be the lowest bidden value. But even then, that's suspicious. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on March 21, 2007) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8603 Registered: 10-2003 |
That is were the question of deliverables comes into play. If it is just consulting it may not have gone to bid. How can you bid something in a reasonable manner that doesn't have defined deliverables. I suspect they are buying hours at a flat rate in which case there probably would not be a requirement for a bid. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8604 Registered: 10-2003 |
One side point - Through my cynicism I am happy that the DDA identified the areas potential and is willing to work on the area. | ||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3670 Registered: 10-2003 |
WTF is wrong with you people? Its amazing how conclusions that make no sense are pulled out of someone's conspiracy theory ass and then circle jerked into being truth. This is becoming a very common pattern on this board. Is there anything that resembles critical thinking here any more? Seriously, are ther The project had three bidders on a specific set of deliverables. Beebe's team had lowest bid and most responsive bid. They have to meet the deliverables and they bid what they think it will cost them to get to the deliverables plus a little plump for themselves. If any of you have ever been on either side of the table on any sort of bid consulting work you understand that. If you have consulted with out specific deliverables and on an hourly basis only, congrats on pulling the scam of the century. If any of you have hired a consultant on such a basis, congratulations on being the dumbfuck of the century. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 47 Registered: 03-2007 |
Jt1, I'll be optimistic for all of us, even LY.Just the thought of developement is good to here. I've been tossing around the idea of a opening a store in that area when I move back. I don't know what though. But I have a year to make more definitive plans. I couldn't think of doing anything until they move the bus stop. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8606 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I suspect that you don't know how often it happens. It's good to hear that there are clear deliverables. I am always cynical when it comes to consultants in this scenario as I used to do consulting work on still see the abuses of it to this day. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8607 Registered: 10-2003 |
lvn - I think we are all very optimistic for what that area will become when the bus terminal is built. I was just cynical of the process which Mr. Sunshine clarified.  One really good things appears to be that most of the buildings appear (key word since I don't really know) to be in good condition and renovations, etc could be quicker than some of the otehr messes that have been worked on elsewhere. There is also the huge benefit of the BC/Griswold being an anchor. his could be a great thing for bringing Woodward and Washington together and creating a pretty nice little district. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2163 Registered: 06-2004 |
It is sooooo nice to have Skulker back. I believe that Jt1 just threw that out there so eventually you would be so fed up with the rumours and little birdies that you would just have to resurface and feed the facts. Thanks Jt1 -- your little ploy worked. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 36 Registered: 03-2007 |
out wit the bums - goes the yuppies walkin fluffy white dogs.i live around the corner from capital park,its really the last area of downtown that needs help. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8609 Registered: 10-2003 |
My pleasure. It is nice to have Skulker back. I figured he would respond with some facts since it is DDA related. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3873 Registered: 08-2004 |
Yeah it is good to have his curt surly ass back on this forum! | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11427 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yay Skulker! Personally, I don't give two shits how, why, or what the process involves. I just am happy to hear that planning is underway for the park. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 37 Registered: 03-2007 |
fall 2008..Detroit will rise from the under world | ||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3672 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Congrats on pulling the scam of the century. Don't ever darken my desk with your proposals. I'll rip off your head and shove the proposal down your blood spurting esophagus. Have a great day! | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hey Remix, Is the fake ID shop still there. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 39 Registered: 03-2007 |
lol,no but a friend of mine is waiting to open a pet supply store in capital park once complete | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 49 Registered: 03-2007 |
Well that's my target area, I think it has great potential for a family oriented enclave with shops and cafe's, Mabe a wine and specialty cheese shop. A true neighborhood, with the park as it's central gathering place. You know, for the fluffy dog people. | ||
Blondy Member Username: Blondy Post Number: 1116 Registered: 10-2003 |
Tell me more about this pet supply store. Will they sell dog food? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11433 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Are you speaking of Bob's Photo I.D.? That was on Broadway, then moved close to Harmonie Park. I actually got my passport I.D. there for my concealed pistol license. Place closed up shortly there after. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2167 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: It was the guilt that got to them... | ||
Stromberg2 Member Username: Stromberg2 Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think Capitol Park has a Greenwich Village feel. Stromberg2 | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 187 Registered: 12-2006 |
let's DO SOMETHING!!! Yay Capitol Park!! | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2006 |
I would love to live in the Capitol Park area. It seems so perfect. I wish all of Detroit was like it. Well not as it is now but what it could be. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 188 Registered: 12-2006 |
I would love to be able to turn invisible sometimes...and fly as well. I also wish God hadn't invented mosquitos. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2172 Registered: 06-2004 |
You should be thankful he never got a hold of your yacht rock playlist...Lord only knows what he would've done to you for the Elvis Costello and Dire Straits inclusion... | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1984 Registered: 11-2004 |
Not to mention Rick Astley ... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8613 Registered: 10-2003 |
Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you go..... | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1985 Registered: 11-2004 |
Smarmy, not smooth! | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 44 Registered: 03-2007 |
SHe wants to sell pet food,dog clothes,lol,birds,pet toys,an pet nik nacks,like dog calenders,pictures,postcards,t rinkets | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1154 Registered: 02-2004 |
sounds kinky I thought we wanted to discourage those type of establishments in the CBD. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 60 Registered: 01-2007 |
Capitol Park will be fine when the RPTC,(Rosa Parks Transit Center,haha), gets up and running. Too much to type. Capitol Park could use some infill up to the end of Griswold. 5-15 story range. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2005 |
Can't wait. Get that bus stop b.s. OUTTA THERE. There that schitt down, so Capitol Park can prosper! | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 332 Registered: 02-2007 |
I would think a more sutible area for a temporary bus depot in Downtown Detroit would be... hmm, there's no where else for one. | ||
Yooper Member Username: Yooper Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2006 |
Anyone here into Motown music? Nothing beats it. | ||
Blort Member Username: Blort Post Number: 95 Registered: 02-2007 |
"You are incapable of understanding that you don't end a sentence with a proposition." You don't end a question with a question mark? | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3745 Registered: 10-2003 |
This is great news. Capitol Park is such a gem and surrounded by beautiful architecture on all sides. It is unfortunate that it became a bus transit point all these year. Hopefully they will add more greenery in it. With the Griswold and Cadillac anchoring one corner, it is set to take off. It would be nice if something would happen on the lot behind the Cadillac. Any news on the Farwell? That building has a lot of potential. Its 8 story atrium with the wooden railings is a sight to behold. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2186 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Yeah, uhh, that was a statement. Not a question. If it was a question, I would've said "are you incapable..." instead of stating "you are incapable..." | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2007 |
I think the new Convention/Ballroom addition will be built on that lot. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 336 Registered: 02-2007 |
"You are incapable of understanding that you don't end a sentence with a proposition." "You don't end a question with a question mark?" That was basically the dumbest question about someone else's grammar that I have ever heard. | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2006 |
Wouldn`t that be prEposition? Or does somebody want to propose to someone? (if we are already nit-picking) | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1593 Registered: 04-2005 |
2183......0 148........1 | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8738 Registered: 12-2003 |
You don't have to turn in the badge, just be more careful before you pull and aim that weapon...it might backfire. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3896 Registered: 08-2004 |
Getting back on track.... wouldn't it be nice to move the Merrill Fountain from Palmer Park back downtown, but to Capitol Park? (Originally it was at Campus Martius.) That triangle shaped park is perfect for such a nice centerpiece. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1998 Registered: 11-2004 |
I would like the Merrill Fountain to be the foundation for a renewed and excellent Palmer Park! | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 731 Registered: 11-2004 |
Why move it? It's been in Palmer Park longer than it was ever downtown. Doesn't one of the city's premier neighborhood parks deserve a nice centerpiece too? I've seen pictures of a fountain in old Capitol Park pics does anyone info about it like the name or what happened to it? CP could use a fountain, but install new one or if the old is still around use that. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3925 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well for one thing it's neglected and not working. Since I haven't been there, I don't know where it's positioned. Is it in a prominent spot where it can be appreciated by a lot of people? Can it be seen from the roadway? | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 1046 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: If it never operated at it's current location, of which you are clueless how is it not working? Get out from behind the computer and get a firsthand clue. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 78 Registered: 03-2007 |
Move that damn fountain. Its only a big urinal right now in the park,literaly. Detroit is like a jig saw puzzle right now,we've lost some pieces,so were a smaller puzzle, but we have the oportunity to shuffle, shift and move our great assets around to position the city as it is now, not as it was in the 60s | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3927 Registered: 08-2004 |
Toolbox... WTF are you blathering about? A fountain is WORKING when it pours water from itself. A fountain is NOT WORKING when it doesn't function during warm months. Does that make sense to you? The 1982 version of W. Hawkins Ferry's BUILDINGS OF DETROIT BOOK shows the fountain situated in Palmer Park... there was no water running even back then, and the fountain looked deteriorated (discolored marble, etc.). So that was a 1982 book, a quarter of a century old. Now maybe that begs the question... has the fountain ever worked at the Palmer Park location? If you know the answer to this question, then please share that information. And the reason I ask where it is at, is so that I can go check it out myself. If it has never worked at Palmer Park, then hell yes move it back downtown. It's better as a wonderful working fountain downtown, than a lawn ornament in an outlying park. So Toolbox, save your flaming for the really clueless... (Message edited by Gistok on March 27, 2007) | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 82 Registered: 03-2007 |
if you take 2nd street north,,one block past 6 mileit ends right at the fountain. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3928 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks Downtown_remix, I will go check out the NON-WORKING fountain myself. And you are correct. Detroit does have some very awkwardly placed "great assets". That fence ornament called the Hurlburt Gate at the entrance to Waterworks Park is one. All you can do is view it speeding past on Jefferson, or just walk past it. Chauncey Hurlburt would be rolling over in his grave today if he knew that his 1894 legacy were not accessible by the public, what with Waterworks Park being closed for as long as I can remember (much of it since WWII). The gate has a wonderful double staircase on the inaccessible side. And then there's the Kusiousko Bicentennial Statue that has all the prominence of a billboard, along Michigan Ave. near 3rd Street. I'm sure the government of Poland was real pleased when they gave it to Detroit during the USA Bicentennial in 1976, as to where it was placed. That location is a failure as a "prominent location". Detroit seems to have a real knack for having beautiful monuments placed in out of the way locations (although I'm sure the Hurlburt Gate was nicely situated when Water Works Park was still a popular attraction and Jefferson a narrower thoroughfare). And I bet that Lizzie Merrill Palmer would be none too pleased with them moving the fountain that she commissioned downtown as a memorial to her late senatorial father. Its' prominent location in front of the former (razed) Detroit Opera House on Campus Martius was one of the centerpieces of Campus Martius in the early 20th century. Just MHO.... | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 84 Registered: 03-2007 |
washington blvd has positioned itself for future greatness.now caddilac square ,officially opening in april,has done the same thing,re positioning another statue to boot | ||
Archy Member Username: Archy Post Number: 34 Registered: 07-2004 |
I nicely landscape park would do wonder's for this area. Is the park still know as capitol square, or just capitol park?  | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3931 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks for the pic Archy! It is known as Capitol Park. In 1828 a courthouse was built on the site. That wooden building with a columned front and a tower became the Territorial Capitol soon thereafter. In 1837 it became the Michigan State Capitol building, which it remained until 1847, when Lansing became the state capital. Sometime thereafter the old building then became Central High School. It was refaced in brick/stone and had Victorian style additions added to it, so that it no longer looked at all like the 1828 structure. Then circa 1893, there was a fire, and the building was a total loss. It was replaced by the landscaping that you see in this early 20th century postcard. Sometime in the mid 20th century much of the greenery was removed for bus shelters and bus lanes. The fountain was taken out (likely it was scrapped), but the statue of Steven T. Mason, Michigan's first governor, remains. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 948 Registered: 03-2006 |
Capitol Park would look AMAZING if the city restored the greenery in that postcard. Wow! Thanks Archy! | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1779 Registered: 06-2004 |
What is the status of the buildings around the park? The last time I looked they were cleaning exteriors and doing some other work on a couple buildings around the park, and there were signs up on one or two more. Can anyone give us a rundown on the status of these and/or other buildings? Was it only my imagination, or did I see posts from Skulker?! They sure looked authentic. Nice to see that name again. At least that's where I'm coming from. <----sentence invented to close with a preposition. Discuss. Not. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1119 Registered: 11-2004 |
Boydell Development is "working" on the red building near the point of the park in the picture. There is a little hope because the building across the street, not in the picture, has been worked on by Boydell and floors of it are now occupied. Boydell is also working on another building right behind the Book Cadillac not in this picture. http://modeldmedia.com/develop mentnews/boydel84.aspx Boydell also owns a couple of other downtown buildings, including the empty building at State and Woodward and another at Broadway and Gratiot. I think the people who control Boydell are also the people who own Nikki's Pizza and Coaches Corner. I can't remember for sure though. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1494 Registered: 10-2003 |
Here is the first Detroit Central (or Capitol) High School with the 1875-1893 front addition and facade. It took up most of Capitol Park. The building was a total loss in a fire in January 1893 and was replaced by the second Central HS (now Wayne State's Old Main) in 1896: The architecture was Second Empire Victorian. Impressive now, but considered "monstrous" by the early 20th century. It's hard to believe, but the original State Capitol is attached to the back of this building. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3932 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks for the pic Fury13. It's sad, but true that so few Second Empire structures remain in Detroit. There were some real beauties. This pic (IIRC) was taken from the middle of Griswold looking north towards the park. "THE GRISWOLD" parking/condos will be located just to the left (just out of view) of this pic. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1495 Registered: 10-2003 |
The pic was originally posted by Hornwrecker in an old thread, so props to him. Yeah, we have so little Second Empire left in Detroit. Brush Park and Charlotte/Peterboro are the main two areas where some of those structures can be found. There isn't much Romanesque, either. | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1781 Registered: 06-2004 |
Thanks E_hemingway. I kind of knew about the three buildings on Capitol Park, but not all the detail. I can't picture the building at State and Woodward. I'll have to look next time I'm downtown. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 213 Registered: 11-2004 |
What about the building on the left hand side of the postcard? And info about it? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3948 Registered: 08-2004 |
Dnvn522, whatever that building was in the past, it appears to be gone...  It would have been right behind the future site of The Griswold (from the KDG Group diagram) along Griswold Ave... (side view in the shadows). It looks like a tall 8 or so story building is there today. | ||
Messykitty Member Username: Messykitty Post Number: 202 Registered: 03-2006 |
I think that building is/was the Statler. Right? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2505 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: uh no, wrong park. The Statler was on Grand Circus park not Capitol park. | ||
Cushkid Member Username: Cushkid Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2005 |
The Staler was on Grand Circus Park, it is visible on the postcard above being that it was only one street over on Washington | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 3224 Registered: 10-2003 |
If Dnvn is asking about the orange-colored, 6-story building in the postcard, that is still there. Possibly the Malcomson Building? | ||
Messykitty Member Username: Messykitty Post Number: 203 Registered: 03-2006 |
Exactly, Cushkid. The Statler is the tallest building on that postcard. Not on Capitol Park, but definitely visible. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3952 Registered: 08-2004 |
My bad, I was thinking of the pic of the Central High School, not the postcard. Mikem, you are indeed correct. That postcard pic was taken late 1910's or early 1920's. After 1925 the Book Tower would be visible in the left background. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 401 Registered: 08-2004 |
What do you guys think about shutting down vehicular traffic on Griswold from Grand River down to Michigan? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1163 Registered: 02-2004 |
Why? | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1497 Registered: 10-2003 |
What do you guys think about shutting down vehicular traffic on Griswold from Grand River down to Michigan? If you want to kill off all business in the area, sure, why not? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3955 Registered: 08-2004 |
... like they did with the red "tinker toys" along Washington Blvd.... | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 403 Registered: 08-2004 |
You can't park there now (for the most part) anyway, so I don't know how this would be killing off business in the area. Plenty of parking on Washington Blvd. and adjacent streets, plus the parking structures. Crew, I was asking the question just to see what people's ideas were on the subject, that's all. I think it would be a great idea. Other than it being the bus terminus right now, plus a shortcut for others, I don't see how closing this street off would be detrimental to any new business there. How many places downtown do you get to park directly by anyhow, unless they have valet, etc? | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1500 Registered: 10-2003 |
Getting rid of vehicular traffic in an area almost always creates a perception that the area is isolated and hard to get to. It would kill the businesses there, believe me. Chicago's State Street mall (closed to all traffic except buses for years; recently reopened and now thriving again) is a textbook example of what happens in the "pedestrian mall" scenario. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 405 Registered: 08-2004 |
Ah, gotcha Fury13. Would be nice though. I remember a portion of State Street used to be closed off between Griswold and Woodward in the 80's. We used to cut through there to catch the Dexter or Imperial Express bus on Woodward. That's after a quick stop for some chocolate covered peanuts from Morrow's Nut House on State. It was Morrow's, right? Mind is a bit hazy today. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 216 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote:That's the one. Two buildings south of the Farwell (on the postcard...I believe there is a parking lot between them now). Is there anything in this Malcomson Building now? It's a cool little building. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 2013 Registered: 11-2004 |
Closing any of the streets off to vehicular traffic might make that area go downhill ... I think you will start to see the homeless congregating and loitering in the area, public drug use, and other shady dealings. It certainly won't make a *more* appealing area to walk through. Oh wait ... | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 838 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lowell, Nice photo tour of the park! | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 218 Registered: 11-2004 |
This one here:  And I see there is a parking lot between them now. | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 720 Registered: 10-2003 |
Pedestrian malls work in Europe, but they also believe in and use mass transit. I certain amount of pedestrian traffic is needed for these malls to make sense, and Detroit is a long way off from achieving that density. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8733 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: So do spaces like Piazas. I suspect that as beautiful as they are they would fail in this fat region. | ||
Russell Member Username: Russell Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2003 |
Skulker! Remember me from that day at Russell St? How's Velma? I'm still in the Penobscot Bldg. The Book Cadillac is looking good..... | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 618 Registered: 10-2006 |
Any news? | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 115 Registered: 03-2007 |
What's the status of the Capitol Park efforts? |
