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New Red Wings Arena behind Fox Closer to Reality - 1Admin87 04-11-07  11:34 am
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, it does seem that the DDA has a tough time saying "no" to Mr. Ilitch, doesn't it?

Seems like all the projects you mention above involve existing buildings, Skulker. How much development have the empty lots "inspired"? Is there even landscaping and lighting at the Madison-Lenox lot, as Ilitch promised???
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Urbanize
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I actually agree with Danindc. Most of the development that has been in these areas aren't anything new. Now you can sort of defend it if the buildings were new. The Hotel Vermont is a 2-3 floor low-med density building which is out of it's place anyway in a high dense designated part of town.
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Skulker
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Seems like all the projects you mention above involve existing buildings,



Well it IS kind of hard to give a facade improvement grant to a lot with out a facade.

I thought your point was that the DDA does more demo than renovation, which I fairly well disproved.
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Matt_the_deuce
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not going to excuse Ilitch, but he's still trying to keep people from thinking he really wants to put the arena there.

Why would he announce that he is having Vermont building torn down so he can build his new arena?

- obviously to justify his motives to the people on this forum, and not worry about the millions at stake having to negotiate with other property owners in the area.

I don't like how Ilitch has maintained his buildings, but I don't think he's an idiot.
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I've stated here repeatedly, I cannot in good conscience, advocate demolition of a building without a plan for the site. If there's no plan, it's just speculation, and speculation = guessing.

The fact that taxpayer dollars are spent on the destruction of downtown with no plans for the future is appalling.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan:

even if there were no plan for development, which I doubt, the city has an interest in having more parking and one less disgusting eyesore in its entertainment district...
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Sharmaal
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

" I cannot in good conscience, advocate demolition of a building without a plan for the site."

I envy you my friend as

1. There must not be any empty buildings around you.

2. If there are empty buildings, they must not be safety hazards.


2. If there aren't safety hazards, there must not be any bums living in them.
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Skulker
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

As I've stated here repeatedly, I cannot in good conscience, advocate demolition of a building without a plan for the site. If there's no plan, it's just speculation, and speculation = guessing.

The fact that taxpayer dollars are spent on the destruction of downtown with no plans for the future is appalling.



I will agree that there should not have been tax dollars spent on this when the Ilitch family has enough money to buy two casinos. Its Olympia Holdings, there's more than enough cash.

But I cannot agree that holding on to a building until there is a 'plan for the site' is always a good idea. Often that is a counterproductive policy.

Old, especially vacant, buildings are not revenue neutral. Proper securing (and resecuring as folks break in) can be quite costly as can insurance for abandoned buildings. They can also harbor criminals and pose other safety risks to passersby. They can also act as a drag on redevelopment around them.

If there is no reasonably foreseeable redevelopment potential for a building, it is in the tax payer's interest to remove the building sooner rather than later to reduce the amount of money squandered on the securing and insuring of the property. For example, the Metropolitan building requires an annual expenditure of roughly $100,000 in insurance and continual resecuring. ADditional windows have been broken and at some point the DDA will need to spend another $300,000 boarding those newly broken windows like they did just before the All Star game. That building has potential. Notice it has NOT been willy nilly demolished. The sentiment that Detroit is on a demo spree in the CBD has been shown to be mere histrionics time and time again.

Simply throwing money at a building that will come down eventually makes no sense what so ever.
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Danindc
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^

1. You are not qualified to assess whether a building is a safety hazard. Being "old" is not a safety hazard, just as we don't automatically euthanize people of a certain age.

2. I would rather a bum live in an abandoned building than freeze to death on the street.

3. Property owners should abide by the law and maintain their property, not receive tax incentives to let it fall into disrepair and then demolish it.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see that the efforts of Mr. Ilitch are not living up to the expectations of many of you on this board. Perhaps he should take his money and go elsewhere as it seems he can't do anything right.

I am sure the area would be far better off without the Fox renovation, Comerica Park, the jobs from Little Caesars, and the many millions of dollars in other investments and charitable contributions he has made over the years. Money he could have spent elsewhere and received a greater return.

Maybe some of you armchair quarterbacks can pool all of your money, which would probably total about $200.00, and invest that in the city and show everyone how it is done.
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Skulker
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^

1. I never said old was a safety hazard by and of itself. Please note the use of the words "can" and "sometime". I am experienced enough in building restoration to know the danger signs of dilapidated buildings and when and how to get professional opinions in a cost effective manner.

2. I would rather a child not be raped inside an abandoned home on her way to school, I would rather not have more places for crack addicts to get their fix, I would rather have a stronger support policy for homeless folks than the rather cavalier (well, inhumane I think is the word I am looking for) policy of letting them live in abandoned buildings that become death traps when warming fires spread out of control.

3. Agreed.

4. I would rather remove the weed buildings quickly and instead use the money that would have been wasted on vain mothballing attempts on the restoration of other, viable buildings.
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Scs100
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^

2. The death trap was proven earlier with the fire near the Mid Med Lofts that started from a few homeless people (I believe that was the cause).

3. Agreed again.

4. Skulker got that one perfect. Why waste the money?
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with skulker. Too much of this whining about dilapidated abandoned buildings being torn down. Some are worth the fight to save, some aren't. Don't keep it there just to keep it there. It's a blight on the area. That whole mentality seems ridiculous to me. I am all for preserving our history, but not at the expense of an area's ability to renew itself. I'd rather look at a mix of old and new in a thriving downtown than a bunch of old building that USED to look nice but have nothing in them and are falling apart.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well said JL
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Urbanize
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed again JohnLodge.
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Llyn
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Vermont is/was a small building in a sea of lots. On a scale of buildings worth saving, it has to be the bottom of the list.

I can drive around the neighborhoods and see a hundred much more spectacular buildings going to waste. Only because this one is downtown and the Ilitches are involved has this one become an issue on the forum - and however much I want to see the classic buildings saved and restored - making this one an issue is not worth the time. Other than the sheer joy of seeing posts from skulker, that is.

I will agree that state money for demo is frustrating, unless there is more going on behind the scenes than we know now.

If you want to be angry at the Ilitches about a building I suggest you search the threads under Madison-Lennox [or under "above the law"]. Or discuss any one of several buildings they've bought and let rot (see UA theatre thread). This one is a non-starter in my opinion.

Nothing more to see here. Move along.
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Eric
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I see that the efforts of Mr. Ilitch are not living up to the expectations of many of you on this board. Perhaps he should take his money and go elsewhere as it seems he can't do anything right.

I am sure the area would be far better off without the Fox renovation, Comerica Park, the jobs from Little Caesars, and the many millions of dollars in other investments and charitable contributions he has made over the years. Money he could have spent elsewhere and received a greater return



So because of all this he should be allowed break the law by allowing some of his properties to fall in disrepair? These laws shouldn't apply to someone who has invested millions in city? I see that for some that expecting people to follow the law is aiming too high.
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Eric
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

even if there were no plan for development, which I doubt, the city has an interest in having more parking and one less disgusting eyesore in its entertainment district...

In an area that area that was nothing, but eyesores five years ago. Again if your line of thinking had been followed there'd been no Kales Building renovation,Iodent/Centuar, Cliffs Bells or Park Bar. Every single one these buildings was a vacant eyesore five years ago.

(Message edited by eric on April 05, 2007)
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not a fan of the city betting a comeback by building stadiums. I feel a better bet would be to continue to renovate Park Avenue and to try and fill in those surface lots with townhomes or low rise condos. I really think for downtown to make a good comeback, they need to attract more people to live. People need to live downtown along with work downtown.

You are never going to have a successful downtown by tearing down old buildings and putting up stadiums. The stadiums bring people downtown for a couple hours not to live.

How are you going to attract a creative class of intellectuals and artists by flattening everything of any architectual value? You can see that same bullshit homogonized architecture in the suburbs. Why make the trip downtown to look at it?
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Urbanize
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, where will these developers be flocking from to develop over the least valuable land in downtown? No one has proposed to develop over these surface lots yet. True, Park ave is seeing hints of it, but nothing drastic is coming.
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"but nothing drastic is coming"

yet. There will be a demand soon enough. The land could easily become more valuable, the city just has to spice it up. Obviously they're too concerned with the stadium, so I don't see that happening.

Repave the streets, put in some trees, the old lights, it would look much better. Kales, the GAR, I know there's more. It could be a really cool old district in downtown Detroit. It's a bad idea to put the stadium there.
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"I'm not a fan of the city betting a comeback by building stadiums. I feel a better bet would be to continue to renovate Park Avenue and to try and fill in those surface lots with townhomes or low rise condos. I really think for downtown to make a good comeback, they need to attract more people to live. People need to live downtown along with work downtown.

You are never going to have a successful downtown by tearing down old buildings and putting up stadiums. The stadiums bring people downtown for a couple hours not to live."

Few thoughts:

1). Ilitch wouldn't be tearing down much to build a new hockey arena. (many have made this point).

2). Downtown Detroit has so much available land that it doesn't seem to be the case of athletic facilities squeezing out or preventing other commercial development.

3). As other have stated, if a hockey arena is not built behind the Fox, then that area while continue to be undeveloped for decades. I doubt housing would happen there.

4). The presence of a new hockey arena INCREASES (in my opinion) the probability of more new development adjacent to it.

5). As I've indicated with Wayne State's development (S. University and the planned new Bus Ad school). Any development which eats up an undeveloped block and puts up quality development is a BIG +. Nothing worse then blocks of nothingness.
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Urbanize
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ty Emu_Steve, except for the first point, I agree with you completely.
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see what you're saying Emu_Steve. You made some really good points. To my knowledge, there is really just parking lot for a number of square blocks.

I don't know how much land the actual stadium would take up, I assume it wouldn't be enormous though. My issue is that this will continue to prevent those lots from being developed. Maybe strcutures will be build around the stadium or underground parking. I am a fan of both of those, but I think its important to fill that area in.

If the stadium is built, I assume it would have to create redevlopment. I also assume that there would be more demand for restaurants and bars. I think if all of that is true, it would be good news for the GAR and Park Avenue.

I just want that area to get filled in and fast.

WSU is planning to build a business school in that area also?
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El_jimbo
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the stadium is built there, Ilitch would almost be forced to build parking structures nearby to replace all the potential lost parking revenue that those surface lots currently generate.

Although, since old Mike is an avid DYesser, I'm sure he will add first floor retail to all of them. :-)
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I assume the GAR is related to plans for a new hockey arena. Kind of like a package deal. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ilitch do a hockey arena AND do the GAR while he is at it.

This is my hunch.

The proposed WSU Bus Ad. building would be Woodward and Palmer.

My point with WSU is that they will develop two blocks on Woodward - the S. University block and the Bus Ad. school block.
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Either way, that business school sounds great for the city and the university.

I guess I can't really see how the demand for places to go before or after games wouldn't just spike in that area. Maybe this is good news in terms of this being a spark to start other projects in the area.
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Gistok
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No offense EMU, but putting low rise townhomes as infill on Park Ave. would suck big time. Try picturing the missing gaps along Park Ave. infilled with Crosswinds type of townhouses. That would look horrible.

Infill should be at least 4 stories tall, if not taller. The only exception I could see, is if someone did a move (Chuck Forbes style) of the Moose Lodge from Cass to Park. That would look OK, since it would match the architecture.
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Tkelly1986
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would anyone have an idea what the most likely footprint of the arena would be? Could they show us via google earth/paint.....I am curious if it will bound grand river and exactly how much space it will take up.....and if any streets will close.
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't blame EMU for that, he was quoting me.

I completely agree about Park Avenue, high quality buildings that fit right in with the others on the block. My idea was to build townhomes and stores over by the GAR and that more blown out side. You could have a square and it could be nice.

I would want high quality cool townhomes, brick, no siding. With filling in the area, you would also have to renovate the old buildings. Repave the streets and put in trees and old lights. That could be an awesome neighborhood in 10 years.

(Message edited by milwaukee on April 06, 2007)
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it would go up on Elizabeth, Cass, and Montcalm.

They would cover Columbia and probably create a new block between Park and Cass to better define the stadium.

I would guess that structures would go up at Cass and Adams and on Montcalm.
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Schulzte1
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was kind of surprised that the demolition is occurring right in the dead center of the plot of land I where my New Olympia Stadium proposal would go, even though that was the general area where there has been talk about a new arena anyway. Maybe Mr. Ilitch saw my web site!
Check it out at www.newolympia.blogspot.com and post some comments, I'm interested to know what people think of it.
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would he want a new freeway exit for the stadium at Cass or Michigan?
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Tkelly1986
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would prefer an olympia closer to grand river....in that oddly shaped parcel by the GAR....however, only if the ,moose lodge can be moved!
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Sharmaal
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I completely agree with Park Avenue."

I'll let Park Avenue know that you agree with her View Points.
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Urbanize
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, were talking about something else Sharmaal and you come in with some smart ass joke. Please keep it to yourself and speak on the current topic.

I also would prefer development along Grand River, but I'm not a bg fan of of a stadium. I'd rather have retail along Grand River before a stadium.
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Danindc
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I also would prefer development along Grand River, but I'm not a bg fan of of a stadium. I'd rather have retail along Grand River before a stadium.



Why not both?
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Urbanize
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It wouldn't structure right in my opinion.
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Danindc
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It wouldn't structure right in my opinion.



I don't understand. I'm interested in your POV, but I want to make sure I comprehend your concerns before I comment.
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:

"I was kind of surprised that the demolition is occurring right in the dead center of the plot of land I where my New Olympia Stadium proposal would go, even though that was the general area where there has been talk about a new arena anyway."

That thought was NOT lost on me.

I see it as a preparatory step for the arena.
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I completely agree about Park Avenue, high quality buildings that fit right in with the others on the block"

Better Sharmaal? :-)
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Schulzte1
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with John Lodge. Not all old buildings are created equal. You don't want to tear down grand old buildings with a great deal of mystique to create an empty lot. That isn't the case here. If Ilitch owns the property and wants to tear it down, that's his business. Preservationists should focus on buildings that mean something to a lot of people like the Michigan Central Station and old Hotels, maybe even the GAR building and Moose Lodge. But not some old non-descript building that is just sitting in the middle of an empty lot abandoned. That is just being obstructionist. Mr. Ilitch should have to show his hand before taking any action on abandoned properties; that isn't how I would want to run a business either. And what other businessman is going to pass up state money if offered?
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Milwaukee
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"maybe even the GAR building and Moose Lodge"

Definately the the GAR building and Moose Lodge! Those are two amazing buildings! They should not be demolished! They should be protected from this tacky jerk at all costs. Worst comes to worst, move the Moose Lodge to a new site.

Both of these should be renovated. Demoltion of these two is a sign of a city with no hope or class.
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Harsensis
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somebody was spending money on the Moose Building yesterday. When I drove by somebody was steam cleaning the stone work on the front of the building.
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry for repeating a ? which was already answered in another thread, but

In which block is the Moose Building?

I presume it is within the footprint of Park, Montcalm, Clifford, and Elizabeth.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've come to the conclusion that the demo of 138 W. Columbia may have something to do with future parking for a new arena, but tells us nothing about where the arena is going to be placed. It's too close to Park Ave., and too small of a piece of land when you consider other structures nearby, to allow me to think that an arena will be placed between Park and Clifford.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From earlier in the thread:
quote:

ust 50 feet from the Vermont is the historic Iodent Building. The DDA has given a $150,000 facade improvement grant to the Iodent, a $200,000 SBLT loan for the Cetaur bar / restaurant...


For the benefit of those of us who are idiots or otherwise uninformed, what does "SBLT" stand for?
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Thejesus
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SBLT = Small Business Loan Transactions

see here for more info...

http://www.degc.org/main.cfm?location=52&ParentID=2



(Message edited by thejesus on April 07, 2007)
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you.
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Psip
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Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

New arena, or new elevators?

Detroit Red Wings owner Mike Ilitch can be sphinx-like when asked whether Joe Louis Arena will be renovated or a new arena built near the Fox Theatre in downtown Detroit or another location.

This week, the Ilitches gave their standard "continuing to evaluate all options" response after news broke that they plan to raze a dilapidated empty building they own at 138 W. Columbia. The building is smack dab in the Foxtown area long-rumored to be a site for a new venue.

But with the lease for The Joe expiring in 2009, the Ilitches' noncommittal answers tend to fuel more speculation. Just ask Greg Gauthier, a longtime Wings season ticket holder, who shared an elevator ride with Mike Ilitch during a Wings home game Tuesday.

Gauthier said he had this brief exchange with Ilitch: "I asked Mike if there was any progress on the decision about a new arena," Gauthier said. "He replied 'I sure will miss the rides up in this elevator.' "

Gauthier is sure it means the Wings will have a new home. Then again, does it mean The Joe's makeover includes new elevators?

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070407/A UTO01/704070338/1148
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Apbest
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Post Number: 516
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fyi it's half way down the page....it can be misleading at first :-)
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 268
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Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would Mike ever consider building an arena "around" the lodent building? Keep the building up as one of the corders of the arena.....I would hate to see this one fall, however, I would think that something can be worked out or the building can be moved
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

someone could do us (at least me) a big favor if he or she could list the buildings within the 'proposed' footprint.

Are we talking the Hotel Vermont, Lodent, Moose, etc. plus a few more???
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Mdoyle
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Username: Mdoyle

Post Number: 54
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Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont think the Iodent is going anywhere,Centaur a very popular bar and the owner has worked hard on it and the town pump to just let it be torn down, Moose would probably have to go though.
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El_jimbo
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the Iodent is going for the reasons Mdoyle mentioned and one more. The Engine House (Engine 1 Squad 2?) right next to the Iodent is not going ANYWHERE. Ilitch saves THOUSANDS of dollars on property insurance because that Engine House is so close. He will probably build around both of those buildings.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4107
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Moose Lodge is on Cass (west side).

I doubt that any existing buildings along the west side of Park Ave. are in any danger of demolition for a new arena. The arena would likely be built just west of those properties, requiring the closing of Clifford, and going to Cass Ave.

If the arena were to be built on that triangular area between Cass & Grand River, then the Moose Lodge would be in danger.

However, there is no scenario whatsoever where the GAR would be in danger.

Also, no additional Fisher Freeway exits will be added for a new hockey arena. The Grand River exit and Woodward exit are enough.
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Mdoyle
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

based on nothing more than the speculation on this forum Im pretty excited about the new hockey arena that might be. The JLA is an eyesore inside and out. As much a I will miss the men's room trough's I think its time for a new arena. The JLA isnt that old but it was never a great world class arena.
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Emu_steve
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Post Number: 216
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok:

According to your scenario, would a new arena run east/west rather then north/south?

I always assumed it would run north/south (I assumed that layout would be fit better in the neighborhood) maybe not.

This brings back memories when I USED to be a hockey fan and was a season tix holder at the Olympia and remember trying to get on the blue line at the end where the Wings shot the first and third periods.
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Gistok
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emu_steve, to be honest I never really thought about that one... I always thought that if it were built behind the Fox, it would run which ever way Mike Ilitch could get the most land for the cheapest price. There's always gonna be someone who doesn't want to sell, except for some exorbitant price (like with the east riverfront casino land).

If it were built along Grand River it would probably run in a Northwest angle.

Rather than letting the landowners have all the cards to play for a new arena, I could picture Mike Ilitch playing his own trump cards... possibly playing the landowners against each other.

He could say... "I'll build it either east of Cass (behind Park Ave.), west of Cass (along Grand River), or north of I-75 (Motown site)"... "now give me your best price, so that I pick your area"... "otherwise your parcel may end up getting boxed in by huge parking structures."

(Message edited by Gistok on April 09, 2007)
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Schulzte1
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Post Number: 72
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would be pretty cool to see a new arena not only look like the old Olympia, but have its main entrance run along Grand River, just like the old Olympia too. I was really surprised when I saw some overhead pictures of the old rink and noticed how the whole building had a crook in it so it would use the frontage along Grand River Avenue. It had six different sides with three different angles along the long North side of the building. Very unique.
www.newolympia.blogspot.com

(Message edited by schulzte1 on April 09, 2007)

(Message edited by schulzte1 on April 09, 2007)
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2328
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Schulzte, I've skimmed the site--not a bad job at all. My only suggestion is that I would rather remove the mechanical and other ancillary rooms from the perimeter of the building, and replace that space with street-front retail, at least on Grand River. The leaseable space would generate more revenue for the building, as well as create activity on the street.
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Royce
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Post Number: 2173
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the Hotel Vermont thread there are pictures that show the three possible locations for an arena. Thank Dnvn522 for the pictures.

(Message edited by royce on April 09, 2007)

(Message edited by royce on April 09, 2007)
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Schulzte1
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Post Number: 73
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DaninDc,
Thanks for checking out the plan. All the mechanical rooms in the lower level are actually below grade if you check out the arena cross section, and those spaces are necessary for the function of the arena. The hockeytown store, Red Wings Hall of Fame, and restaurant would be accessed by escalators from the main level, because there is more room in the lower level. The main level is at street grade, and I didn't want to pack too much in the main level because the concourse has to be wide enough for people to flow through (20-40 ft wide). The site I used for this arena is pretty compact compared to other NHL arenas, so if a larger building was built, then more retail could be added on. But in my plan, there isn't a heck of a lot of wasted space. If Mr. Ilitch owns much of the land surrounding the arena, that street level retail will develop around the arena without question.

BTW, the old Olympia did have a pharmacy in the West corner of it at street level. That might work in this plan, but if a bunch of stores are added, then it wouldn't look like the old Olympia, which is what I was going for.
www.newolympia.blogspot.com
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2329
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 5:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you could find some way of being architecturally sympathetic to the original. I suppose that I'm interested in keeping the building frontage from being several hundred feet of dead space on non-game days. Verizon Center uses its street frontage very well, and is on a similarly (or even more so) constricted site.
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Queensfinest
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Username: Queensfinest

Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A throwback hockey arena in Detroit would be truly magnificent. Something built in a red brick Colonial Revival style reminiscent of the old Olympia could set a standard and help the sport of Hockey in numerous ways.

I visited Joe Louis a few years ago for a league championship game between Detroit and Dallas. Detroit won. It was great inside, but the arena is so poorly integrated into its surroundings and badly designed that once you were outside you were basically left little choice but to walk to your car and then sit in traffic with a beer.

The demolition od Cobo arena and Joe Louis can help to expand the convention center while perhaps integrating it with its surroundings and the riverfront. I know that ideally the riverfront would be better suited for something other than Cobo Hall, but it's there and it might as well be redesigned and expanded in a more contextual manner. It could be a premier convention space. Added retail or whatever else. These aren't pipe dreams like I sometimes see on this site, but actual plans that should be easily realized...
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 217
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great thread, guys.

I'll go through the Hotel Vermont thread and then update this post.

I believe my assumption about an north/south building was because of two things:

1). Looking at Schultze's map/drawings one sees how nice the north/south placement of Ford Field and CoPa are. Another north/south facility would seem to blend nicely, at least from the sky.

2). Schultze's drawing has an north/south building. Matter of fact, it is the only building which would fit within his Park/Clifford/Elizabeth/Montca lm parcel.

*********

(Message edited by emu_steve on April 09, 2007)
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 270
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would Mike make the announcement before renderings are complete? Or do you think he is waiting to get the entire package ready to go?
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Emu_steve
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Post Number: 218
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just reviewed the Hotel Vermont photos.

I struck by the Cass/Park/Elizabeth/Montcalm one.

There seems to be a key building at the corner of Columbia and Cass. It doesn't look like much.

Then there is the Hotel Vermont but that one will be demo soon.

The remaining buildings are on the eastern part of that parcel and don't even seem necessary for the arena. I believe someone has already made this point.

And build a parking garage on Clifford at Montcalm.
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Scs100
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Username: Scs100

Post Number: 749
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My best guess is that the announcement will come after the playoffs end for the Wings.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 741
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"And build a parking garage on Clifford at Montcalm."

WE already have one that certainly needs renovation
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Mdoyle
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Username: Mdoyle

Post Number: 56
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps we'll see the revival of the chin tiki with an arena so close. Last i heard on this forum the owner was waiting for the "right time" to reopen. Anyone have any updates on the intirior of the Chin?
Im thinking (dreaming?) that this arena would do what CoPa and FF failed to do and really spur growth. I know these two did help brush park a great deal but with both stacked right next to one another and being bound by an expressway it left little room for a ring of development. I would hope that a new arena would really revitalize the park avenue area even more. We have the Iodent, and the Kales, Detroit Life building being rehabbed in the area, a shields pizza going in at the Kales, Cliff Bells, Park Bar, Town Pump and Centaur. Whats next with an arena in such close proximity? Would it really explode? Lower rent prices in these building might make it perfect for retail. The Woodward merchants row seems to pricey and risky for most businesses that would have to invest on sheer speculation.
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Schulzte1
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Username: Schulzte1

Post Number: 74
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've got a couple questions about the area behind the Fox Theatre where my Arena proposal is at.

Is Clifford a really busy road? A couple people complained that the plot of land I thought the arena should go would require the displacement of the Centaur Bar and a fire engine house. It seems like for the right price those two establishments could be rebuilt somewhere else in the immediate area. If not however, would it cause traffic flow problems if a new block was created bound by Montcalm N, Cass W, Elizabeth S, and Park E? The arena would move over about 120 feet and Clifford would be removed from the new block. This would free up a little more room for the Arena development and spare the Centaur and the engine station. If not, then I don't think there is any way to build an arena in that area without demolishing at least a couple buildings. My plan calls for about 450 feet by 330 feet plot of land, and I don't think that will really fit anywhere else well.
www.newolympia.blogspot.com
This is a good site that describes the buildings in that area.
http://www.detroit2005.com/map o/main_area.html

(Message edited by schulzte1 on April 09, 2007)
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Scs100
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Post Number: 753
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Clifford wouldn't be much of a loss considering Cass is right next to it. Easy to get over I-75.
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Mdoyle
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Schulzte1, as Ive said before I dont believe that a new arena will require the moving of centaur bar/Iodent building nor do i think it should or will be demolished under any circumstances. With the town pump being a more beer bar sort of place and centuar being a cocktail lounge the owner Sean seems to have a really good monopoly back there and if I were him I wouldnt be easily swayed to give it up. I am curious to know how well you know the area and the establishments downtown. I would think that people familiar with the area definitely would NOT be suggesting any sort of buyout or movement of centaur.
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Schulzte1
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uh, I have no idea about those two establishments. If he's got a great bar and doesn't want to move, good for him. I've seen reviews and it sounds like a cool place. Some developer wants to tear down our old fraternity house in East Lansing and replace it with mixed use commercial/residential, and we alums are fighting like the dickens to keep our place or at least get a decent buyout. But money talks, and Mr. Ilitch's money can scream.


(Message edited by schulzte1 on April 09, 2007)

(Message edited by schulzte1 on April 09, 2007)
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Fury13
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Post Number: 1518
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let Ilitch build AROUND the Iodent Building (Centaur) and the fire house if he wants his hockey arena there.

He doesn't always have to get his way, and he doesn't need ENTIRE city blocks to build his project anyway.
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Schulzte1
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Post Number: 78
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury13,
Well, I think if Clifford is taken out, a hockey arena might fit. But don't underestimate the size of a hockey arena. A 20,000 seat rink would take a big chunk of land to build. Just check out the footprint of Joe Louis Arena at www.newolympia.blogspot.com, its over 500 feet long and about 330 feet wide.
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Rjlj
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Post Number: 309
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Iodent Building and the fire house are not going anywhere.
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Mdoyle
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Username: Mdoyle

Post Number: 58
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok heres what I did..(although I am admittedly getting sick of this thread) I went online and looked at some of the newest NHL arenas. I eventually settled on the Columbus Blue Jackets Nationwide Arena. Seating is 18,500 w/o suites. It fits nicely in the footprint also.

arena3

http://www.nationwidearena.com/
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=97404207&size=l
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2331
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Ok heres what I did..(although I am admittedly getting sick of this thread) I went online and looked at some of the newest NHL arenas. I eventually settled on the Columbus Blue Jackets Nationwide Arena. Seating is 18,500 w/o suites. It fits nicely in the footprint also.



You forgot to bulldoze several city blocks for surface parking lots.
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Mdoyle
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Post Number: 59
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No I didnt. I even managed to save the mooselodge.
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Rsa
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Post Number: 1091
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thank you dan. everybody seems to think that ilitch will try and fit this arena within the existing buildings as best as he can. not going to happen. look for everything possible to get levelled, for arena or surface lot.

when copa was going to go in this area, his plan called for that. everything along park avenue that wasn't occupied (including the kales, cliff bells, blenheim, detroit life, and iodent buildings) was to be cleared. he also used this opportunity to propose demolition of the ua for an "entrance" to the park (read, landscaped parking lot) even though it was three block from where the stadium was to go.

and, where copa is today; the ywca got torn down when it was in useable shape and outside of the footprint of the stadium. he got the city on board with condemning the gem, even though that was an operating business outside of the footprint of the stadium. same story with the elwood. [luckily, chuck forbes perservered and moved both structures.]

if it doesn't serve the future stadium and the owner of that structure does not have any sway with the city, look for it to be gone, slash and burn style.

mdoyle; marvin chin died in the middle of last year. chin tiki was bequeathed to his children (son, i think). i believe that he sold it to the ilitches, but am not sure. there is a thread in the archives about him passing and what happened to the building...
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2332
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, RSA. I know I have a habit of cynicism, but it makes me feel not-so-crazy to have a fellow design professional in agreement with me.

Ilitch is the worst type of owner out there: slash-and-burn, scorched earth, exploiting every loophole (and then some) to his advantage. Of course, he has won tons of favor by restoring the Fox Theater. I believe his long-term record of development speaks much louder.

Granted, it would help if the City and State actually closed loopholes, didn't subsidize demolition, and actually enforced an urban zoning regulation, but I digress.
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Rsa
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no, you're not crazy dan. i've been following development and volunteering for history and/or preservation groups in detroit for the past 10+ years and i'm basing my opinion on personal experiences.

it is easy to detest ilitch's methods, but i think your latter point is the best: it's the politics that let people get away with (or facilitate) these types of things are the primary source of blame.
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56packman
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Build the new arena in one of the god-forsaken urban prairies. Make the new place bring up an area that has no place to go but up. Ilitch can have all of the surface lots he wants on the east side, the suburban ideal of a building plopped on a huge asphalt parking lot.
It won't happen, Mike will get what he wants.
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Dialh4hipster
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Post Number: 2028
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Perhaps we'll see the revival of the chin tiki with an arena so close. Last i heard on this forum the owner was waiting for the "right time" to reopen. Anyone have any updates on the intirior of the Chin?



Yes, the building was sold to the Ilitches. On a Saturday about two months ago I saw people (presumably Chin family members) moving the furniture and fixtures out, so I would have to put the chances of that building reopening as a tiki bar at about 0%.
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Fury13
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would love it if the owner of that little bar building at the corner of Cass and Columbia refused to sell out to Ilitch (assuming the property's not already owned by Ilitch).
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Gistok
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Dan and Rsa, one thing musta slipped your mind.....

The EMINENT DOMAIN that was used to condemn and buy the large swath of land for Comerica Park and Ford Field... is history. Last falls midterm election had that proposition on the ballot to STOP all Eminent Domain for any private purposes, and it PASSED.

So what was done to do a wholesale clearance of land on the east of Woodward site CANNOT be repeated (in the same manner) for the west of Woodward site.

2 laywers on this forum (The_rock and 3rdworldcity) both confirmed that a new arena in the future cannot be built in the same way as the Stadia.

So, I am pretty confident that Mike Ilitch will not be doing the wholesale clearance that he did before.... unless he can persuade all the building and land owners to sell. And that is hardly likely.

Moose Lodge building owner Blair McGowan is a preservationist. I doubt he'll give up the Moose Lodge building if an arena is going up nearby. Ditto for a lot of other nearby building owners.
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Rsa
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if there's a will, there's a way gistok. besides the fact that ilitch owns most of the property back there, it's a bit of a moot point (see blenheim, film exchange building, united artists theatre and building, etc.). also, it was more a discussion of ilitch's past track record and intentions than of iminent domain...
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm still baffled by many of this forum.

I think there is a lot of 'straw man' going on here.

Quote:

"So, I am pretty confident that Mike Ilitch will not be doing the wholesale clearance that he did before.... unless he can persuade all the building and land owners to sell. And that is hardly likely."

This sounds like Ilitch will demo 10 or 15 buildings to get a huge parcel of barren land.

In fact in the JPEG I saw in the Vermont Hotel thread, two blocks had a grand total of ONE building.

The other two blocks have five buildings, one of which is slated for demo by Ilitch.

One or two more needs to go.

The others probably can stay.

I fail to see this as a 'scorched earth' policy.

I see the 'historic preservation' aspects of THIS parcel assembly as grossly overblown.

Are posters fighting "the last (historic preservation) war"?
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Gistok
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EMU, you certainly have me confused??? I agree that all that Mike Ilitch needs to raze is that one structure? What's your beef with that??

My point is that building owners can no longer be forced to sell for an arena or stadium. So Mike Ilitch will NOT be able to clear the land again. Can I make that any clearer???

And the "where there's a will, there's a way"... well that was also knocked down in court over the Women's Exchange Building (Chelios Chili). Mike Ilitch wanted it razed so that he could put a "decorative sidewalk" there when Comerica Park was going up. But the courts ruled that since it wasn't part of the stadium footprint, it could stay.

Eminent Domain WAS the reason for the wholesale destruction of buildings for the Stadia. And the death of Eminent Domain for private uses, means that the wholesale destruction of buildings likely WILL NOT happen for a new Arena.
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Rsa
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

steve, i'm having a little trouble understanding your point, so excuse me if i don't address it correctly.

what we're talking about is, based on ilitch's past track record with developing parcels of land for something, he tends to not only demolish the buildings within the footprint of the proposed structures but those within several blocks of the proposed structure. this is what we're talking about "slash and burn" mentality; needless demolition of structures for more open space (in this case surface parking).

this is irresponsible for several reasons. one, the history (the preservation aspect). two, aesthetics: cities are an amalgamation of many different styles of architecture. three, economics: many of these buildings are salvageable and could be turned around much quicker than new structures. four, the environment: all the building material demolished would go into landfills when it could be reused.

i realize that each of these points could be argued to death and some people will probably require in depth analysis and studies to believe them, but i'm just trying to briefly outline the main tenets for advocation of saving the remaining buildings within the area.

[and i'm not talking about the hotel vermont in particular. i'm talking about the more significant, both architecturally and historically, buildings in the area behind the fox. ie. film exchange building, blenheim building, moose lodge, chin tiki, united artist theatre and building, etc.]
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Danindc
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

So, I am pretty confident that Mike Ilitch will not be doing the wholesale clearance that he did before.... unless he can persuade all the building and land owners to sell. And that is hardly likely.



In case anyone hasn't noticed, Ilitch isn't revealing his arena plans because he doesn't want to pull a Dennis Archer. He knows damn well that if he announces his plans before getting ALL of the parcels he wants, the sellers will start asking ridiculous prices.

That being said, Ilitch has enough money to make offers people can't refuse. And while eminent domain for private benefit is illegal, throwing more subsidies at the Macedonian Parking Cartel certainly is not.
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Gistok
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On that I completely agree Dan... he is not tipping his hand (besides purchasing land). In fact he has been sorta doing the opposite.

He has NOT developed any of his properties in the west Foxtown area at all. He has (as we all agree) just been letting them stagnate. And his reasoning probably has been... why make the land I want to buy (but don't yet own) even more valuable (expensive) by helping fix up the neighborhood first. He's no dummy in that regard.
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Emu_steve
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Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All I was trying to say is that based on the four- block parcel I saw, there won't be any need to raze many building or widespread usage of eminent domain, if it had still existed.

I'm talking FUTURE here (hockey arena); others are talking what has happened in the PAST (CoPa).

I'm out for the night.

Go Tigers, beat the birds.

(Message edited by emu_steve on April 10, 2007)
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Thejesus
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"all that Mike Ilitch needs to raze is that one structure"

well, if he builds the arena on all the space that people currently use to park their cars for tigers/lions/fox theater/etc, considering he's adding another attraction to the area, what would you propose they do about the parking situation?
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Upinottawa
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding parking, a "Red Wings Train" anyone?
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Danindc
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Regarding parking, a "Red Wings Train" anyone?



No. That amounts to public transportation, and we all know that people in the Motor City won't ride public transportation. It just makes too much sense.

/sarcasm
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Ndavies
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:


Regarding parking, a "Red Wings Train" anyone?



Isn't that what the people mover is?
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Scs100
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He means for people farther out than where the people mover ends/starts.
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Ndavies
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some people have no sense of humor.
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Scs100
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey! It's hard to tell sarcasm on the internet. Sorry.

How about a Red Wings Streetcar? (That was terrible)
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Thejesus
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

how about one of those cable ride things that takes you from one end of Cedar Pointe to the other....

it could start at those enormous casino parking structures
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Scs100
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chairlifts?

Yeah, people would love riding in those in the winter!

First one to freeze wins $400!
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Msartlit
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OMG ! It's not just the simple parking situation - the whole traffic situation is outrageous. I've had to weave and wait in traffic to get to Orchestra Hall. When there are events at Comerica Park and the Fox it is insane, it is just as crazy getting to the Opera House or Greektown when there are events at Comerica and Ford Field.
Unless the roads are improved and there is more reasonable access in and out of that area we hardly need more cars being funneled in.
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Southen
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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try approaching from the south then. Go down to Jefferson then north towards your destination. Thats what i do whenever there is an event and i never have a problem.

I like the sound of chair lifts.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

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Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or Woodward and take a side street that will get you to your destination. Or Gratiot and take a side street that will get you there. Or Grand River. I see people taking Elizabeth from Grand River to get over to Ford Field and CoPa and it seems to be a decent route.
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

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Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 6:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know what this means, or how to analyze this in terms of the new arena. A statue of Gordie Howe at the Joe???? Would this be moved to the new arena or is this a signal that the Joe is staying.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/ news/story?id=2832953
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Tkelly1986
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Post Number: 273
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Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bump
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Gumby
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Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its not hard to move a statue.
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Rjlj
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Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, it is true. llitch has purchased million's of dollars worth of property behind the Fox over 20+ years but now can't build a new arena because of a 1500 lbs. Gordie Howe statue.

As for the slash and burn methods of llitch, RSA mentioned that "when copa was going to go in this area, his plan called for that. everything along park avenue that wasn't occupied (including the kales, cliff bells, blenheim, detroit life, and iodent buildings) was to be cleared." Makes total sense if you have future plans to put up an arena and want control over a large area of land. Why pay for it yourself when you can have it for free?
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Toog05
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Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Statue has nothing to do whether a new arena will be built or not. There will be plenty of things that would be moved from the Joe into a new arena if built. You guys are trying to hard to analyze whether a new arena will be built or not.

This thread needs to die until there is a announcement made.

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