  Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 87 Registered: 03-2007 |
Any hope that the completion of the Book, Shelby, and Casino Hotels would spark interest in City Airport. I think the timing would be ripe for a new discount carrier to enter the market. With the Economy in bad shape and ridership up, coupled with relatively no competition, even the inner-ring sub's would have a hard time discouraging such a deal. The resistance to lengthening a runway that killed the last deal with Southwestern would probably not come up this time. Also, the lack of housing in the Vandyke Corridor would make Acquiring land a lot less troublesome. And if the greedy speculators wan't to pull that crap they pulled before; Imminent Domain is also a viable option. Any chance of a deal coming to fruition? | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 598 Registered: 02-2007 |
Sorry, there was this carrier called Destination ONe that had flights from Cleveland and Cincinnati here that planned to open and start operation in City Airport, but the Airport folks grounded them due to lack of runway space again. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 599 Registered: 02-2007 |
the land around the airport is becoming rather valuable for commerce though. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2006 |
Legal commerce? I'm not aware of any Gratiot corridor boom. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 89 Registered: 03-2007 |
I was really disappointed when Southwest left the city over turf wars and runways. I still don't think it's a pipe-dream though. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 90 Registered: 03-2007 |
A new carrier out of City Airport would help to stimulate the Gratiot Corridor. With thousands of new travelers riding and being shuttled downtown, the city couldn't help but continue the improvements that started with the Super bowl. | ||
Dfd Member Username: Dfd Post Number: 231 Registered: 09-2004 |
Is 5000' long enough for a Regional Jet or an Embraer? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 745 Registered: 10-2006 |
City Airport can't be that much smaller than Chicago's Midway. Midway airport is about one square mile as I recall with the runways being two diagonals through the site creating an X. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2960 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm with you, Crawford. There's no boom in building in the urban prairie or using the vacant buildings near City Airport and probably won't be in the foreseeable middle-term picture. But, I am curious as to any plausible, credible source(s) of this real estate forecast from the poster who made that claim. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 91 Registered: 03-2007 |
Ly, It was just a thought. I grew up in the flight path on Vandyke and Nevada. I didn't say that there was a boom of commerce, I said just the opposite. My post was to pose the question. With most of the negative forces out of the way, could'nt a deal for a new runway extension make it through council. There aren't many houses or businesses in the area any more. This would make it more attractive to a possible suitor. And by the way Pro-Air used 138 seat DC-9 400's at the current length's. JUST A THOUGHT | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 600 Registered: 02-2007 |
There is a commercial boom along Gratiot. 7 Mile and Gratiot is one. 8 Mile and Gratiot, The corner around Conner and Gratiot. Now the VanDyke corridor is a different story. Besides, Gratiot has a commercial strip going good for it near City airport (furniture Warehouse store, Payless, numerous Fast Food Joints, Car Wash, Oil Change place, Better Made, Rite-Aid, CVS, City Airport Motel, LaSalle opened a fresh, brand new bank behind the strip mall and CVS, Video Stores, Auto Parts Store). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2961 Registered: 10-2004 |
Lvnthed, I was referring to some other poster's remarks. BTW, I'd like to see general aviation make it again--myself being both a private pilot and an FAA-rated A&P mechanic. But the tort attorneys ruined that industry with their product-liability lawsuits back during the 1970s. Many involved in that sector went out of business in response to the countless frivolous lawsuits and such. And that sector of the economy never recovered. I was fortunate back during 1986 as an A&P mechanic to visit Delta's facilities for several hours overnight at O'Hare. Back before the 9/11 days, the airlines would offer such opportunities. I was able to have a free run of the innards of two of their planes parked at that ramp--a Lockheed 1011 TriStar jumbo jet and an older DC-9. Back then I owned a 1966 Cessna 150F (only cost $3000 in 1970) and sitting in the pilot and copilot seats of a DC-9 was very comparable to flying a Cessna. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 05, 2007) | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2007 |
Sorry LY, Pro-Air used 146 seat Boeing 737-400's You think Jet Blue would like to have a presence in Detroit. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 606 Registered: 02-2007 |
Wasn't Pro-Air banned due to poor service overall? | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 93 Registered: 03-2007 |
yep | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2962 Registered: 10-2004 |
No matter what they flew. Both the Boeing 737 and the DC-9 (MD-80) were two of the most common mid-sized aircraft. Today, almost everything built in the US is Boeing, and they aren't doing so hot either. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 611 Registered: 02-2007 |
A bit off-topic, but does anyone remember the defunct Airline "Braniff". I read they were actually a cheap airline that went bankrupt. Today, you can see on of their old fleets flying on the "Braniff Productions" bumper after South Park today. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2963 Registered: 10-2004 |
Keep reading... Braniff, out of Dallas, was not a cheap airline. It failed due to financial over-expansion (and mismanagement) just when airline deregulation and high fuel prices took hold simultaneously during the Carter administration. Several airlines flying back during the Braniff era are either in bankruptcy now or have vanished altogether | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2649 Registered: 02-2005 |
I believe that Detroit can become much closer to having world class status if a) you get a rapid transit link between metro airport and downtown and/or b) City airport is used commercially again. As someone from the east-side, i would love the luxury of having city airport carriers. Metro is closer to Ann Arbor than the east side. The most important thing, though, is linking metro to downtown with transit, preferably something rapid, so that you can get downtown within 20 minutes. | ||
Caquail Member Username: Caquail Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2003 |
The orignal Braniff was a full service carrier until about a year before the end. The company replaced CEO John Casey with Howard Putnam who at the time was President of Southwest. He tried to remake Braniff in Southwest's image going to an all economy cabin (called Texas Class) on domestic flights, retaining First only on flights to South America, London, and Hawaii. Obviously Braniff was too far gone and filed Bankruptcy in May of 82, they resumed flying as discount carrier owned by Hyatt in 84 and hubbed out of Kansas City. The company filed for Bankruptcy again in September of 1989. There was one more revival of Braniff in the early 90s lasted less then a year I believe. As for service out of city airport, the Embraer E170 or Avro RJ85 could use DET without any restrictions. As for JetBlue I would be shocked if they picked DET over DTW, the majority of their fleet could not use DET without payload restrictions or reduced range. I would also not hold my breath on them starting service to DTW anytime soon either, there are already four airlines (Northwest, Spirit, and American, and Delta) flying Detroit-New York. There is a lot of other low hanging fruit for them to pick before they go up against Northwest who has a reputation in the industry for coming down hard on anyone who enters one of its hub markets. Regards C.A.Quail | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 615 Registered: 02-2007 |
Wow, didn't know Metro had American, but only United. Thanks for the info Caquaill. (Oh, I read the info on Braniff from the same source LY got his info from. Let's just say it was a real good detailed reference on it for that particular site). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2965 Registered: 10-2004 |
BTW, I knew of Braniff w/o having to study up on it. It was a commonly flown major airline. After all, you're just a youngster with scant knowledge of the recent past. Otherwise, you would have heard/known something about Braniff w/o having read something not very accurate about it from some dubious somewhere. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2171 Registered: 07-2004 |
If someone lives at I-94 and Hall Road(20 mile) and above, do they still drive to Metro to catch a flight? | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 624 Registered: 02-2007 |
Either there or Pontiac/Oakland as they still make domestic flights if I recall. | ||
Crash_nyc Member Username: Crash_nyc Post Number: 829 Registered: 08-2004 |
I miss being able to fly in/out of City Airport. My family lives on the East Side, and before Pro Air went under, I could walk out of the house and be in the air in less than an hour. Damn I miss those days! Caquail: As for JetBlue I would be shocked if they picked DET over DTW, the majority of their fleet could not use DET without payload restrictions or reduced range. I've flown JetBlue a number of times out of JFK, and I have to say that it's an awesome airline (despite the Valentines Day ice storm debacle). I'd love to see JetBlue come to Detroit, but I highly doubt that we'll see them at City Airport -- unless they lengthen the runway. The vast majority of JetBlue's fleet consists of Airbus A320-232s. These are the FAA's runway length requirements for the A320: 80% weight: 4300 ft 90% weight: 5400 ft 100% weight: 6600 ft City Airport: 5090 ft The numbers just don't crunch. | ||
Redvetred Member Username: Redvetred Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2007 |
Living north of M-59, flying out of Flint is the way to go. Ten gates, easy and cheap parking, very friendly and courteous personnel, quick security checks and convenient departure times add to the easy access. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 859 Registered: 10-2003 |
The answer for City airport could be Air Taxis which some believe will be the wave of the future. 8 -10 seaters that go from small airport to small airport allowing business folk like myself to fly at the same fair as Northwest but avoid the lines and traffic. Smaller planes using less fuel don't require as many seats filled to cover the costs. They are not subject to the air traffic problems that so many of the larger planes encounter. You call and say you want to go to Pittsburgh and be there by 10:00 AM. They tell you they have a flight bound for Cleveland at 8:30. You are booked in as the second stop. Instead of Pittsburgh Int'l, you might land at Allegheny airport and grab a rental car from there. You return to City and, if you live on the fashionable East Side, you have a 10 minute ride home from the airport. That's the argument that I have heard. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 633 Registered: 02-2007 |
Yep. There's ample parking too. Stop an a restaurant of your choice going down Gratiot and go home. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 593 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'm not really a fan of urban airports. I hate flying into LaGuardia with it's last minute u-turn and Midway's no-room-for-error runways. Maybe if City Airport weren't so landlocked... | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 778 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote:Questions: Who are the "airport folks?" What does lack of runway space mean? Wasn't this carrier proposing to utilize commuter size aircraft? | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 635 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Questions: Who are the "airport folks?" What does lack of runway space mean? Wasn't this carrier proposing to utilize commuter size aircraft?" -FAA. -Runways still aren't the correct size for the FAA Standards. -Not Sure. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2007 |
I still think the past runway problems do not exist in the current climate. Michigan and Detroit are hurting and anything that bring's more visitors to the state would be welcomed. The problems we had with the sub's over increased air traffic would also disappear. We have got to make our city more accessable to the masses. | ||
Dtwflyer Member Username: Dtwflyer Post Number: 49 Registered: 01-2005 |
The runways at DET have two major issues: 1) Length: At 5,000 ft it is too short for most commerical flights to operate at maximum takeoff weight. JetBlue can't operate their A320's into DET, along with Southwest's 737's without weight restrictions, even if there was sufficient demand. 5,000 ft. is even short for regional jets. 2) Width: The runway at DET is only 100 ft wide, where most commerical runways are 150 ft wide. This limits weights and performance during crosswind situations. Actually, the width is often more of an issue than length. Oakland/Pontiac doesn't have any commercial service. Its all general aviation, and one of the top 10 busiest GA airports in the country. Also DCX operates a near-daily shuttle between Oakland Pontiac - Stuggart, Germany with their special configured corporate Airbus A319, with only 48 seats. A lot of Oakland county folks fly out of Flint, it they can get a nonstop flight to their desired destination, but you can really only get to Chicago, Atlanta, Minneapolis, and a few Florida destinations, (and the 12 minute flight to Detroit). Don't expect DET to get new service anytime soon. Between the operational issues, the city's negligence, and the powerhouse of DTW its not going to happen. With the new North terminal being built at DTW, there will be ample space for new carriers. Plus just about everyone already operates there and in this day and age they aren't about to go and start dual operations at DTW & DET. Low fare carriers such as Spirit, Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, and USA3000 are entrenched at DTW. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 96 Registered: 03-2007 |
Dtwflyer, So you think that if the runways were lengthened and widened, the city still couldn't attract an established carrier. I find that hard to believe. Southwest was killed by politics, not economics. Today, politics is less of a factor with the economy in such bad shape. All of the inner-ring sub's want as many tourists as possible to visit the REGION. And if they are visiting the CBD they want to be as close to downtown as possible. Detroit is becoming more of a destination spot, and the airport would be a reflection of that. | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 105 Registered: 01-2005 |
The airport staff failed or neglected to comply with FAA Federal air carrier operation certification requirements CFR Part 121 and or Part 139. This certification was not renewed and thus expired. | ||
Dtwflyer Member Username: Dtwflyer Post Number: 50 Registered: 01-2005 |
Even if they were to widen and lengthen the runway today I don't think it would be possible to attract a reputable, scheduled airline into DET. (The entire process to widen/lengthen a runway can take well over 10 years for land acquistion, environmental studies, noise studies, FAA approvals, constructions plans/bids, and the actual construction). When Southwest was killed by politics, that was during a different era in the airline industry. Southwest back then was a much smaller, less-than-national airline that only flew in to smaller secondary airports on short hops. Now Southwest is a near national airline, flying nonstops all over the domestic US and flying into some of the busiest airports now (Denver, Philly, LA, San Fran, etc). The issue now is that everyone has already set up shop out at DTW, and they are not going to start a second station in the same city. Detroit is not a two-airport town like Chicago or New York is. While the proximity to the CBD is very good, there just isn't the draw there to warrent multiply daily flights into DET. At best, with proper runways, DET could support semi-scheduled/charter service from airlines like Allegant to LAS (Las Vegas), Hooters Air to MYR (Myrtle Beach), and some charter stuff to sunny destinations that currently go out of DTW like Apple Vacations. Airlines like Northwest, Delta, American, Southwest, Spirit, AirTran, or JetBlue are not going to go to DET, since their operating model requires multiple daily frequencies to hub airports and sustained traffic. The CBD would need to come a long way still to where business travelers would prefer DET over DTW. There was a proposal out there a few years ago where Delta Connection was going to offer DET-CVG (Cinncinati) flights since they filed for a SCASD (small community air service development) grant, but they were asking for something like $3 million which was completely outragous, and the fact that grants were designed for smaller/rural communities, not airports in major metro areas. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4105 Registered: 08-2004 |
Urbanize, I highly doubt you're gonna see a "Gratiot Renaissance" if air carriers were to start flying out of City Airport. Most suburbanites will high-tail it down to Conner & I-94, and use I-94 to go home. Some folks may opt to go north on Conner to get to Van Dyke, but I doubt you will see much traffic going out Gratiot, except for folks who live in that area, and perhaps some folks from Easpointe. But some of the worst (crime wise) zip codes in Detroit are in areas around City Airport. And I doubt that many non-Detroiters will be stopping to get a snack around the airport. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11472 Registered: 10-2003 |
City Airport should be turned into a dragstrip if ya ask me. 5,000 ft is more than sufficient for a 1/4 mile strip with more than enough shutdown area for even Top Fuel Dragsters. I suppose then the noise could be seen as an issue. Though since planes already fly in and out of the airport, you'd think maybe people could look the other way considering the dragstrip would only be open a few hours during the week, shutting down by nightfall, then bracket racing on weekends, also done by early evening. Would be nice to have a strip in the Motor City. Penske could make it happen, perhaps teaming up with the Connie Kalitta, as I'm sure he'd have an interest as well as the financial means. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2990 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Back some four years ago when a string of murders happened near the same time on the East side, the news media pegged the 7 Mile and Gratiot area as ground-zero for violent crime. | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 107 Registered: 01-2005 |
A Motor City drag strip is already located just west of the runway. Check out the French Road, drag racing on most nights and weekends. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 736 Registered: 02-2007 |
I disagree. Not only is it a gateway into downtown, it's the second busiest avenue in the city with all the commercial stuff that Suburbanites and tourists look for. People from Mt. Clemens use Gratiot over I-94 due to better traffic ease. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 737 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Back some four years ago when a string of murders happened near the same time on the East side, the news media pegged the 7 Mile and Gratiot area as ground-zero for violent crime." Not anymore. It's just a Traffic Nightmare alone. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2991 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Is that why Kroger and Walgreens closed? Too much traffic??? Or was it too many nightmares? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4108 Registered: 08-2004 |
I agree that Gratiot is one of the main corridors for avoiding the I-94 gridlock during rush hour. But you will find that most suburbanites don't stop along the way, unless they run out of gas. But City Airport traffic during non-rush hour generally won't be taking Gratiot. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 738 Registered: 02-2007 |
It's the same reasons stores in Brightmoor and what not are closing also, because of Traffic Nightmares. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 209 Registered: 12-2006 |
whaaa??? If Gratiot is the "Gateway to downtown," then we're in trouble. Moreover, I am not sure that it has all of the "commercial stuff" that tourists and suburbanites "look for"...unless you are referring to a different type of commerce. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 760 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think that even if you look at the area around Metro airport, you will see that as big as it is, it hasn't really contributed much to the surrounding areas, esp. in regard to increased commercial businesses. City airport certainly would be much smaller; I would guess that the most new businesses that you would get would be like a hotel and a car rental place. People don't stop and shop on their way to or from airports. On your way there you are in a hurry to get through security and what not and on your way back in, you just kind of want to get home. the area around Metro has plans for it to be an 'aerotropolis' but it seems as though that has hardly gotten off the ground. Therefore, I don't forsee any economic impact to Gratiot should commercial air service resume at City airport. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2007 |
You mean no night cap for passengers at Sportmen's, Happy Landings, Hec's, or Snow Owl ? Sorry, had to get in there. If any planes want to land on the block of Whithorn between Gunston and Conner feel free. Its just an urban prairie. De La Sale is long gone so no danger of the QB throwing a ball in the air and trying to hit the airplanes for kicks. What in the terminal replaced Sonny Eliot's place ? | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 109 Registered: 01-2005 |
"What in the terminal replaced Sonny Eliot's place" Nothing, Nada, Nope. Detroit's Eastside Jewel.  | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 863 Registered: 02-2007 |
Hey, we have more jewels on the eastside also, some within seconds from City Airport (Better Made). | ||
Dfd Member Username: Dfd Post Number: 238 Registered: 09-2004 |
Would increased air travel have a BIG impact on businesses that would supply fuel, food and other supplies for the airplanes? | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 112 Registered: 09-2006 |
Are they gonna expand that joint or relocate the airport or what? Does anyone remember (in late '89-early '90) that the Detroit News (this was on a Sunday I might add) featured a blueprint on the front page that resembled an expanded City Airport. Here's how the layout looked: Harper was shut off between Van Dyke and Gratiot 6 Mile was reopened between Van Dyke and Conner/Outer Drive and Van Dyke curved around 6 Mile (for [I'm ASSuming] easier access to the Mt. Olivet Cemetery) And sadly, there's no French Rd. on this layout. And whether they expand it or not, I'd like to see at least ONE major airline operate @ City again. My only bitch about City is that it's literally surrounded by cemeteries (this is why they closed 6 Mile in '87-or was it '86?-because of some bad landings that crashed in the cemeter(ies) and the families of the deceased cried about it) either way, if any major airlines do come back 2 City Airport, only then will I call City 'Coleman A. Young Int'l Airport' -WHICH I THINK WAS A @#$%IN' JOKE!!!!! What I mentioned may be somewhat off-topic, but I just wanted 2 throw in my 2 cents on this issue seeing that I stay 5 minutes from City Airport. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 56 Registered: 03-2007 |
"And whether they expand it or not, I'd like to see at least ONE major airline operate @ City again. My only bitch about City is that it's literally surrounded by cemeteries (this is why they closed 6 Mile in '87-or was it '86?" The cemeteries were there before the airport. If offered money I think some people would gladly move our relatives out of Mt. Olivet and Forest Lawn to Resurrection and Cadillac Memorial Gardens in Clinton Twp. We had "white flight" with living people in the 1970's and 1980's around there, so I guess we can have it with dead white people in this decade. The trouble with expanding across Conner is that their are still decent houses from Findlay up to 6 Mile. With the exception of Sanford, from Whithorn down to Charlemagne is more frame houses in bad shape. P.S. Shame on me for misspelling De La Salle as "De La Sale" in a previous post. (Message edited by Whithorn11446 on April 16, 2007) (Message edited by Whithorn11446 on April 16, 2007) | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 113 Registered: 09-2006 |
Point well made. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1193 Registered: 04-2006 |
"What in the terminal replaced Sonny Eliot's place" Nothing, Nada, Nope. Sorry Don, I'm pretty sure there was a Little Caeser's Pizza Station there during the SWA days. I was always jelous of the folks on Rita Bell's Prize movie, Bowling for Dollars, or Bill Kennedy that would win a gift certificate to that place. I figured "how cool would it be to eat at Sonny Elliot's restraunt at the Airport, now thats class!" | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 905 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Sorry Don, I'm pretty sure there was a Little Caeser's Pizza Station there during the SWA days. I was always jelous of the folks on Rita Bell's Prize movie, Bowling for Dollars, or Bill Kennedy that would win a gift certificate to that place. I figured "how cool would it be to eat at Sonny Elliot's restraunt at the Airport, now thats class!"' There still is a Little Caesars with a drive-thru down the street. |
