  Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 200 Registered: 06-2005 |
With all the talk of mass tranist, I was wondering, Could the streetcars be put back in service and how much would that help and how much would that cost. Any feazibility studies done on this. Sorry if this thread has been posted before, but I did a search and didnt find anything. Nashville is utilizing the train tracks already in place for a "light rail" system. We already have 1 line running with others to follow. Just wondering if this would work in Detroit? Not sure how far out they ran or anything like that. What do you think? Bring back the street cars or hold out for a multibillion dollar actual subway? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 803 Registered: 07-2004 |
Other cities, notably Los Angeles, are putting transit lines back in where they once were, I think on the exact same right of way. I think that's the way to do it here, too. Call it "restoring streetcar service" -- as though it was as simple as turning a utility back on. Doesn't matter though. The red-faced, angry, mad-as-hell, tail-gating you-will-have-to-pry-my-car-ke ys-from-my-cold-dead-fingers crowd will still scream and choke and sob about the "largest tax hike in history" or something like that. Counting down to Ltorivia monorail rant in 3, 2, 1 ... | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 203 Registered: 06-2005 |
Well one thing for sure. They would need (even a subway in Detroit) to be safer than what I read the busses are. Detroit all the negativity comes from crime! I dont care if you put a Golden subway system in that city your not going to get people to ride it if its not safe. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2357 Registered: 10-2003 |
A lot of this has been posted already on numerous previous threads. I'll provide brief answers to your questions. 1. You could definitely put streetcars back in service. DC has one line under construction, and another line in the planning phase (tracks to be laid when the road is resurfaced). Estimated cost is, I believe, about $2 million per mile (far less than light rail). 2. Feasibility studies? Take your pick. They're out there collecting dust, waiting for someone to act. 3. Nashville's Music City Star is commuter rail, NOT light rail. Of course it would work in Detroit. If commuter rail can work in other car-clogged cities like Dallas, Los Angeles, and Miami, it can certainly work in Detroit. 4. A subway in Detroit? Not likely. The preponderance of single-family homes does not lead itself well to support such a high-capacity mode. If planning and development were altered to acommmodate more high-density areas, then perhaps. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 204 Registered: 06-2005 |
Sorry Nashville STar is commuter rail. what the heck is the difference? and I did do the search site option on this forum and found NOTHIHNG! Sorry. I figured this had been rehashed but didnt find it. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2360 Registered: 10-2003 |
What the heck is the difference? Pretty much everything. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 806 Registered: 07-2004 |
Of course, it's not like you'll just dig up the rails and put SPVs on them. It would be new construction down to at least the railbed. Plus the boarding/exiting areas probably wouldn't be in the center of the road anymore. Those old safety islands looked heavy-duty. Wonder if the concrete base is still under the road. I know they started digging in the street in Manhattan once and found the foundation for the Third Avenue elevated, left in the ground when they torched off the piers in 1938. Must have been fun to dig that out! | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2006 |
are there any exposed streetcar tracks around the city anywhere? I thought I remembered some down by cobo in the mid to early 90's but it could have just been a figment of my imagination. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 205 Registered: 06-2005 |
Danindc I wasnt trying to be a smart alleck, I really don't know the difference between commuter and light rail? The nashville star is only 2 cars, would that not be considered light rail? Really, help me out on this, I have no idea? Thanks | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2007 |
http://www.apta.com/links/tran sit_by_mode/ Definitions follow the link for each mode. If you're really interested, come to the TRU meeting tomorrow night: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/99504.html?1176395727 | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 807 Registered: 07-2004 |
If you look really diligently, you could still see rails as of my last visit to: Wayburn at Jefferson Jos. Campau beneath the CN/NS viaduct Woodrow Wilson in front of the Detroit Repertory Theatre Mack at Mt. Elliot Every once in a while they resurface and expose the old rails. I was surprised when they redid Trumbull at Forest. For a few days you could see the rail intersection and bricking, before it was blacktopped over. (Message edited by detroitnerd on April 16, 2007) | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2007 |
EXTEND THE DPM! The way it is now works well for tourists and during the auto show, but it could be used a lot better if they ran it to outlying areas. The train they use is meant to be a lot more use full than it is. Vancouver uses this train to go all over the city, Toronto too. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2361 Registered: 10-2003 |
The number of cars is irrelevant. Commuter rail operates on standard gauge railroad track, and is powered by a locomotive (either diesel, electric, or hybrid). Boarding is usually by means of high-level platform, and trains operate in railroad right-of-way. Commuter rail trains usually operate primarily during rush hour, and less frequently (1-2 hours apart) if at all during the day and on weekends. Stops are typically several miles apart, with lines terminating at a central hub. Trains may operate at speeds up to 79 mph (faster on the East Coast). Light rail can, but does not always, operate on standard gauge track. Per FRA rules, light rail may not operate on freight railroad tracks. Light rail is typically electrically powered by an overhead catenary. Boarding is by means of low-level platforms. Stops are usually 1/4 to 1/2-mile apart--it is rare to see distances between stations of 1 mile or more. Vehicles may run in trains up to 3 cars long, and my run in grade-separated right-of-way, longitudinally-separated right-of-way, or street-running right-of-way. Service is frequent--usually every few minutes during rush periods, and less frequently during the day, nights, and weekends. Examples: Commuter rail: Metra, Long Island Railroad, Music City Star, Metrolink, Sounder, VRE, MARC, Rail Runner Express, Metro North Railroad Light rail: Cleveland RTA (blue and green lines), SEPTA trolleys, Boston T Green Line, Minneapolis Hiawatha Line, Baltimore Light Rail, DART, San Diego Trolley | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 808 Registered: 07-2004 |
Using a train to go all over the city isn't the same as monorail being a one-mode solution for what the city needs. Beginning pointless monorail debate in 3, 2, 1 ... | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 809 Registered: 07-2004 |
Here's what the rail looked like last year at Wayburn and Jefferson. Not much to look at, as you can see. Leave metal outside for 50 years and it gets a little rusty.  | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 206 Registered: 06-2005 |
Thanks for the info guys. Now I know! Nashville is putting in more commuter lines, but not sure when thats actually going to happen. They are definitly commuter. They do not run with any street and are using the existing train tracks. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 276 Registered: 01-2004 |
I still say extend the people mover to the DTW airport somehow.....and fill the spoke roads will a trolley service. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 812 Registered: 07-2004 |
What's the top speed of the people mover? How far is DTW? I think you have your answer on whether we can expand DPM to DTW in those two questions somewhere. | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 507 Registered: 03-2005 |
You can see street car rails in several pot holes along westbound Mack Avenue before Connor. Bob Cosgrove | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8969 Registered: 12-2003 |
Don't tell the scrappers... | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 277 Registered: 01-2004 |
I have read the people mover is built to go at 65 mph and DTW is actually the same distance out of Detroit as O'Hare is out of Chicago. I am not sure the total milage, but is is clearly feasible to build transit to it. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 625 Registered: 04-2006 |
"I am not sure the total milage, but is is clearly feasible to build transit to it." I think his point is that extending the DPM to DTW is inefficient... (Message edited by iheartthed on April 17, 2007) | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1598 Registered: 05-2005 |
i want elevated concrete track as far as the eye can see!!!! | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1242 Registered: 02-2005 |
Dan, I don't know where you got your numbers, but Albuquerque considered street cars a year or two ago and rejected the idea as too expensive. The cost estimates they received were $25-30 million/mile. Light rail was also discussed, at a cost of $60-80 million/mile for new service. Those amounts do not include operating costs. Abq has a population of about 500K, with 650-700K in the metro area. The entire state is only about 1.8-1.9 million. The state recently financed train service from south of Albuquerque thru the city to Bernalillo (north of the city), and will extend that service to Santa Fe over the next couple of years. They are using existing RR tracks, except for a few miles that need to be added near Santa Fe. Cost to implement only is estimated at $500 million, but most folks expect it to be higher. The state managed to get about half from the Feds. This last piece is critical to transportation in the state because I-25 is the only route between Abq and Santa Fe (unless you want to nearly double the mileage for your trip). It cannot be substantially expanded, or even a frontage road added, because it runs thru several pueblos and the Native Americans are loathe to cede any more land to the government. If weather gets nasty or an accident closes the road, traffic is at a standstill because there is no where else to go. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2363 Registered: 10-2003 |
The light rail numbers for Albuquerque seem awfully expensive. I was trying to find the projected costs for the DC streetcars, but they disappeared somewhere. I do recall that streetcars were a lot cheaper than light rail, though. Perhaps this is because the streets on which they are slated to run are going to be resurfaced anyway, which would be applied toward road resurfacing costs, and not the rail costs. I'll see what I can find. | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1243 Registered: 02-2005 |
This is one article that I found. The city was considering only 8 miles (2 4-mile runs) which may have made the per mile cost a little high, but not that much. Wednesday, September 20, 2006 Streetcar's Price Tag May Be Big Roadblock Albuquerque buses carried a record 848,000 passengers last month. Rail Runner Express is packing 'em on its commuter trains. Now Mayor Martin Chávez wants to take the city's transportation to the next level— a streetcar system. Plans call for rail cars along Central Avenue from Nob Hill to the Biopark with a loop to the Sunport. Streetcars conjure up nostalgia for olden days when horse-drawn, and later electric, streetcars operated on Central. But Chávez's plans call for sleek, modern, electric cars whisking passengers along in air-conditioned comfort. And they come with a sleek, modern price tag: $28 million a mile. The two, 4-mile streetcar routes will cost taxpayers $224 million and could induce nostalgia for things less costly, like walking. The city hopes to get $80 million from the Legislature next year. If— and it's a big if— the state delivers, Transit Director Greg Payne says the remaining $144 million will come from the transportation tax. Either way, taxpayers will be footing the bill. And it's likely they'll need more than nostalgia from City Hall to buy in. An explainer on who the streetcar will serve (clearly not Metro-area commuters, who travel across the river and/or take a north-south route) and why it's necessary (buses already serve the proposed routes) are essential to closing the deal. Payne claims streetcars attract riders in a way that buses don't and are a step in building a larger transportation system for all of Albuquerque. There's little doubt they would also be a step in spurring urban redevelopment along the route. At 6:30 tonight, the city hosts the first of three public meetings on the plan at Alvardo Transportation Center. Albuquerqueans can speak up on whether the streetcar is worth the cost— or a case of putting the streetcar before the horse. | ||
Swede1934 Member Username: Swede1934 Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2007 |
The idea of putting streetcars back on Woodward brings back a lot of memories. After WW2, during the late 40's the tracks in Woodward were completely rebuilt from McNichols all the way down to below Clairmount. New "u" shaped tracks were used, and embedded in concrete. This new track system was only used for about 8 years when they were covered up with asphalt. With the exception of the Davison and Ford Expressway bridges, which have been rebuilt, and the Jeffries bridge, which was built after streetcar service ended, these tracks should need little other than digging them up, to be put back in service. Installation of the electric power would probably be the greatest expense. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1811 Registered: 04-2005 |
From the Old Car Factory thread, a video of the Ford Highland Park Plant power house demolition, This film is a compilation of many Detroit scenes. At the end of the film, there are shots of what I think are the last run of the Woodward line. Also I think we see the State Fair terminal. http://www.archive.org/details /highland_park_ford_plant | ||
Gtat44 Member Username: Gtat44 Post Number: 113 Registered: 02-2007 |
The man on crutches looks like William Clay Ford eh? | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 232 Registered: 11-2004 |
The road work on Woodward near the I-75 overpass will reveal the old rail in the median...temporarily. | ||
Swede1934 Member Username: Swede1934 Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2007 |
Psip,that definately was the end-of-line state fair loop. It had a storage track as well as the through loop. Prior to it's demise in the late forty's, the Royal Oak streetcar would pass through the loop to pick up passengers during the fair. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5231 Registered: 11-2003 |
jjaba has yrs. of history with the DSR streetcars. He rode the Oakman, Trumbull, Grand River, the Michigan Ave. and the Woodward PCC cars. jjaba went to high school in the 1950s on the Grand River electric feeder buses. Oakman Blvd. to Cass Tech. Henry Street stop. There are great street car lines in N. America. Some are for play as tourist attractions, some are serious. Tucson, Toronto, Portland (Ore.), Kennebunkport(Maine), Kenosha, San Jose, Salt Lake City, Sacremento, Mexico City, Houston, Dallas, San Francicso, LA., Boston, Philadelphia, Newark. Light rail system are all over the place. Miami, LA, Portland, St. Louis, Montreal, Skokie, Ill., Minneapolis, Chicago, Boston, Detroit People Mover? jjaba, loves the rails. | ||
Swede1934 Member Username: Swede1934 Post Number: 7 Registered: 04-2007 |
Jjaba, did you ever ride out to the Zoo on a Woodward peter-witt streetcar? The stop was at Ten Mile Road and it was a short walk to the zoo. | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 32 Registered: 08-2006 |
How about running streetcars or light rail along the Warren Ave. Crosstown Route and making it free? Businesses and real estate become more valuable along free transit routes. This increases property taxes to offset the loss of transit revenue. Hasselt, Belgium, made its bus system free. The mayor rejected plans for a third ring highway, converted one existing ring highway into a pedestrian and bicycle street, and made the buses free. Since then, bus ridership has increased by 800%. This initiative has been so successful in attracting new business to Hasselt that taxes have been cut and the city's debt is down. One of the reasons the measure was adopted was a shortage of funds - the city did not have enough money to expand its roads. Free buses were a cheaper alternative, and it worked. The city had been slowly losing population, but since the new measures were adopted, population has been rising 25 times faster than it had been shrinking. http://www.progress.org/sprawl 05.htm Chapel Hill NC also has two free bus routes. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 797 Registered: 11-2003 |
Headline: Rail Line Drives Utah Development. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04 /22/realestate/22nati.html What is this? Smart growth and transit oriented development that pursues urban densities in the wide open West? Yeah, but it can't happen here though. Detroit knows something that the rest of the country doesn't. That's why we need to spend about $2-$3 billion to expand I-94 and I-75 rather than pursue rail transit. Now, what is it again that we're being so smart about? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5261 Registered: 11-2003 |
Portland, Oregon. There is one long streetcar line in Portland, Oregon. A good portion of it runs in the Fareless Square, the free zone in downtown. Most runs are loaded with people and some bus lines have been eliminated because of the street car. Each car is run by one operator, with nobody checking for fares. Portland's 3 MAX lightrail lines serve hundreds of thousands daily. All trains run without conductors, although there is a cadre of "Fare Checkers", seldom seen. It also runs through a large fareless zone on both sides of the Willamette River. The Yellow line on Interstate Avenue has been quite successful in the re-development of an old highway, supplanted 50 yrs. ago by I-5. All lines run past the Rose Garden, home of the Trailblazers, and several other pro sports teams. The lines run to PGE Park, home of Triple A Portland Beavers. The lines run through downtown entertainment areas and the Red line services the PDX Airport Terminal. Yes, right inside the station. Although the Salt LAke City TRAX system is admirable as is Denver, what differs from Portland, Oregon is the Oregon Urban Growth Boundary, which compacts the urban populations like nowhere else in USA. Constant invasion of farmlands is legally prohibited. jjaba, Westsider. | ||
Goblue Member Username: Goblue Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2007 |
I remember my mother and grandmother talking about riding the "inter-urban" line. I have no idea where it ran. They were likely referring to sometime around 1900-1920. Phoenix is in the process of installing light rail leading into the downtown core but I have no idea what the numbers are. I had always heard that Detroit would have a hard time building a subway system due to the nature of the soils under the city. True/False? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2388 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: False. Detroit would have a difficult time *supporting* a subway line, because the city largely consists of single-family homes. Subway is not to be confused with light rail, though. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 843 Registered: 07-2004 |
It's all cut-and-cover work these days. Hardly any real "tunneling" is done anymore, in the sense that the London tunnels were bored deep under the surface. Perhaps in the old days, Detroit could have supported surface rail that dove underground at a point where the urban fabric was dense enough to support it, perhaps as far out as Grand Boulevard. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2006 |
I dont mean to thread jack in anyway but Ive looked all over online and on the numerous DSR threads and I cant seem to find a decent map of the city with streetcar lines listed on it. Or even a very comprehensive list of routs that ran during the beginning of the PCC era. Can anyone please help me out. Thanks in advance. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 295 Registered: 12-2006 |
Mdoyle, try this: www.detroittransithistory.info / Professor Scott | ||
Tigers2005 Member Username: Tigers2005 Post Number: 126 Registered: 02-2005 |
My grandmother has told me stories about jumping on the interurban up here in St. Clair County and riding all the way downtown. It blows my mind that they could do that then, but we can't even run individual lines out the spoke roads. I've heard rumors of $4 gas, maybe that will get people more interested. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5265 Registered: 11-2003 |
Tigers 2005, jjaba got gas yesterday for less than $2.00. jjaba on the Westside. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1216 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here is the problem with $4 gas. People will use less gas, meaning less money to put into public transportation (which funds capital projects primarilly through the flat per gallon federal and state gas tax). Sure the sales tax rises, but that goes to the general fund, and since folks buy less gas that means less sales tax too. | ||
Waxx Member Username: Waxx Post Number: 134 Registered: 09-2006 |
I'm very late on this thread, but I thought I'd express my being exposed to streetcar lines/tracks over the years. I grew up on Cadillac between Warren and Gratiot (huge stretch, I know). But unless they patched it up, on the southeast side of Cadillac and Warren, there were streetcar tracks-with red bricks- exposed a good 5 to 6 inches beneath the worn-out coal at that intersection. I've been meaning to take pictures of it and never got to it. Just last week the city put a left-turn lane on Cadillac and Warren. And in recent years I've drove behind the Shoemaker Terminal on Lillibridge and I noticed and old streetcar in one of the old garges with the strings attached, you can barely see it because it's at a distance, but it's there! If I come across any more old streetcar tracks exposed in our old intersection(s), I'll be sure to let y'all know AND if i don't forget, I take some pix of it as well. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 296 Registered: 12-2006 |
Tigers2005, We in St. Clair County are particularly isolated. If you don't have a car, you can't get from St. Clair County to Detroit, period. Is anyone else in the region that disconnected? I mean, no way at all. No local bus, no Greyhound, no Amtrak, no anything. SEMTA had a Port Huron to Detroit bus many years ago, but it's been quite a long time. Now, if you're a pile of auto parts, you can take a train, but if you're a person, nothing. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2006 |
Professorscott, Thank you. I wasnt able to find any actual transit maps though. Mikem posted scans of routes that referred to numbers on a map in DSR memories 2 I believe. Is he still around or does anyone know how i might get ahold of him. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 3273 Registered: 10-2003 |
MDoyle, I don't have the map that the route numbers refer to. It was missing from a 1921 city directory I have. However, I do have several older city maps which highlight the streets which had streetcar service. The oldest is from 1918 and the most recent I have is from 1943. Most do not identify the routes on the map, they just highlight the streets with service - you have to refer to the route listing to get the exact route. Post your email address if you are interested. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2006 |
hey mikem, Thanks,email m.doyle (at) mac.com Right now Im using the routs from the clippings and tracing them on a larger map of Detroit. Tedious considering those routes predate the expressway and several street name changes. Email me whatever you have. I was actually more interested in streets with service anyway. (Message edited by mdoyle on April 24, 2007) | ||
Harsensis Member Username: Harsensis Post Number: 268 Registered: 07-2005 |
The old interurban lines use to run all over the state. You could get anywhere until GM wrecked it and gave a big push for their busses and cars. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 299 Registered: 12-2006 |
I'm not sure we can blame GM and friends. If the streetcars and interurbans had disappeared in Detroit but remained popular everywhere else, then maybe; but they all disappeared nearly everywhere, and GM had no particular pull in the dozens of other cities that dropped streetcars from the 1930s through the 1950s. I think a more likely culprit was the U. S. government's huge push to build more and better roads. In the 1920s the U. S. Highway system became a very large part of the national landscape, which spelled the beginning of the end for regional train service. In the 1950s, when the freeway system became a massive federal plan, intercity passenger rail service was pile-driven into near-oblivion, where it remains. As the fed gave people more and more reason to own cars and use them all the time, the various levels of public transportation became less and less relevant. Now, in all big cities in the U. S. and Canada, since the 1980s, some level of rail passenger service has been restored, whether that is streetcars, light rail or commuter rail. Detroit is the only real exception to that. Again, though, that is not GM's fault; in this case, as Walt Kelly had his creation Pogo famously say, we have met the enemy and it is us. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 12 Registered: 09-2006 |
Hey MDoyle, I was in the process of putting together another web-page for my web-site on the PCC streetcar era in Detroit when I read your request. I then realized that the type of information you requested should have already been included on my site, but it wasn't. So yesterday I got busy and posted a little something that might help a little bit. The following web-page lists all of the DSR streetcars lines from 1937 thru 1956, and the dates in the order that they were converted over to buses. http://detroittransithistory.i nfo/DSR/DSRrailconversion.html There's also a map of the DSR streetcar lines in operation in December 1941 -- a few years prior to the PCC streetcars arriving into town. It might not be the best quality map, but I hope it helps some. http://detroittransithistory.i nfo/DSR-map_railservice-1941.g if (unfortunately, windows wants to make the map small, but clicking on it will display the large version) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2404 Registered: 10-2003 |
Professorscott, while you're not incorrect in your assessment, I wonder if you're knowledgeable of National City Lines. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 303 Registered: 12-2006 |
Yes, but remember, it was federal legislation that compelled electric utilities to divest themselves of streetcar lines; without that, National City Lines would have had no way of doing what it then did. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5280 Registered: 11-2003 |
Montreal, Boston, Toronto, New York City, Newark, Elizabeth, NJ, Cleveland, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia and others in N. America didn't abandon their city and suburban lines. These lines have anchored the neighborhoods they serve. Los Angeles, Detroit, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Columbus, Ohio, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc. are the ones we are talking about. When people traded in their horse and buggies for a car which fit in the garage, people abandoned the rails. The huge post-war push for improved roads cemented the deal. Detroit's ranch style houses and older homes with new garages was all the rage in the 1950s. jjaba. | ||
Harsensis Member Username: Harsensis Post Number: 270 Registered: 07-2005 |
I'm just going off what Bill Hennings always would say in his talks about trolleys. He always said GM was the one who made the big push for busses in the big cities. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 7 Registered: 04-2007 |
Here is a youtube video showing the way the Portland streetcar system operates. Wouldn't it be nice... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL7QEQuRqq0 (Message edited by parkguy on April 28, 2007) |
