  Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 2156 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wow, this is a stunning move: the Karmanos Cancer Institute will buy Detroit Riverview hospital, currently a St. John's Hospital, and move its clinical operations there. I wonder what will happen to Riverview's traditional medical services. They have two medical office buildings in addition to the actual hospital. Will they be taking over the newly built medical building or taking over the hospital itself? If taking over the hospital where will folks in the area go for medical care? When my wife and I lived on the eastside we went to St. John's Riverview for our regular doctors as well as specialists and they were all very good, among the best we've ever had. They were also rated one of the top hospitals in the country for gerontology. It would be sad to loose that aspect of the hospital if Karmanos coming it means that will be lost. http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0423/REG/70423012/-1/newslette r05 | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 409 Registered: 11-2006 |
Isnt this also where MSU was looking to expand its medical school? | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 477 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hmmm, DMC gives Wayne State the shaft. Karmanos gives DMC the shaft. Looks like the chickens have come home to roost. (hopefully WSU doctors can continue to learn at Karmanos?) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4170 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well since St. John is adding a huge 8 story addition to their main medical center in Detroit on Moross on the far east side, I would tend to think that St. John Riverview patients will go there for services and care. Except of course for the indigent care, which will be more likely to go to the closer DMC. (Another shaft for DMC.) | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 240 Registered: 05-2006 |
Hospital shuffle rattles Detroit | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 836 Registered: 10-2006 |
All in all, much of this sounds like pretty good news. I believe that the word around town a few years ago was that the hospital was going to be closed down. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 837 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Dr. Jack Ruckdeschel, president and chief executive officer of Karmanos, called the plan 'wonderful for the city of Detroit. If you look at this, St. John has been struggling for years with investments in Riverview that have not borne fruit. One option was just to close it. What could have been a real problem has been averted. Our intent to invest and expand there is significant.'" | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 480 Registered: 10-2006 |
According to Karmanos, they are getting almost twice the hospital size at Riverview for half the cost of building at DMC. I guess this would pretty much be a no-brainer. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: From: http://www.karmanos.org/view_n ews.asp?id=312 I guess that long-term partnership may not pan out. It was discussed here that Karmanos Cancer Institute split off from the DMC for the ability to pursue alternative routes of funding for grants, etc. | ||
The_rock Member Username: The_rock Post Number: 1722 Registered: 11-2003 |
Mike Duggan is most unhappy. Look for litigation to follow. The hospital industry has become not only competitive, but borders on cutthroat. They advertise more than the 1-800 trial lawyers. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2718 Registered: 02-2005 |
St. John has wanted to dump riverview. I think there's no reason other than profitability. Very few insured patients there. It's great that Karmanos will step in, but this is really a blow to the hospital coverage on the east side. This was all there was between St. John and Bon Secours in GP and the DMC. | ||
Gargoyle Member Username: Gargoyle Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2006 |
Healthcare is now a business. There is little or no humanitarian motivation to serve poor people who cannot pay. Their needs do not enter into either Karmanos's or the DMC's decisions. It's about the money. Failure to make a profit is what has doomed Riverview to closing. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2560 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Healthcare has always been a business. Healthcare has been a business since the first witch-doctor figured out he could survive by providing herbs and roots to people in exchange for food and other services. If he couldn't have provided a better life for himself in this manner, he wouldn't have done it. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4179 Registered: 08-2004 |
The problem is that hospitals such as DMC, Henry Ford and St. John have had to carry a much larger burden of indigent health care than have Beaumont or Crittendon, et al. That's why the Detroit hospitals are clamouring to build suburban hospitals and large clinics (where the insured customers live). Of course this is at the cost of poor Detroiters. This is not so much a regional or state issue, it's a national issue that is playing itself out wherever large pockets of poor people live. Heck, I bet that the hospitals of New Orleans are "pleased as punch" that many of the poor have not moved back to that city after Katrina (at the expense of Houston, Memphis and elsewhere). | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 486 Registered: 10-2006 |
Once again, a no brainer..... "Karmanos can move into a renovated Riverview in about 18 months, at a cost of $40 million. In contrast, he said, it would have taken six to seven years and more than $90 million to build a new facility on the DMC campus, which would have been a logistical nightmare because of space constraints." (p.s. Plus, I believe that poor people get cancer too, but let me go back and check my facts.) | ||
Gargoyle Member Username: Gargoyle Post Number: 66 Registered: 04-2006 |
Yes, poor people get cancer. But they often don't get access to the same type of treatment that paying customers get. Note that the Karmanos chief was looking forward to serving Indian Village residents. If you think that everyone gets the same care, you're deluded. And even if you're insured, once your DRG's run out, no hospital wants you on their hands. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4182 Registered: 08-2004 |
Interesting point Gargoyle about Indian Village... 3 streets of affluence surrounded by a sea of poverty... | ||
Gargoyle Member Username: Gargoyle Post Number: 67 Registered: 04-2006 |
This should be an interesting change for the DMC. About half of the patients served in my area are from Karmanos, and they are, with few exceptions, paying customers. The articles above suggest that some of the Riverview patients who will be displaced will now come to the DMC. I doubt that they will have the same stellar health insurance as the Karmanos patients. I'm sure this equation has Mr. Duggan schitting bricks. Of course, Karmanos should pursue the path of fiscal responsibility. More revenue taken in ultimately translates into better facilities and services for patients down the road. But the loss of revenue that Karmanos provided to the DMC will be keenly felt. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 798 Registered: 11-2003 |
Proximity to Indian Village has nothing to do with this deal. Rather, the profit motive of not for profit Ascension Health System ($800 million profit in 2006) has everything to do with it. Karmanos is giving Ascension cover as it bails on providing care in Detroit. While the Karmanos desire to slash construction costs on a new facility is somewhat understandable, Ascension, on the other hand, simply wants to catch up to the Beaumont and Oakwood systems whose patient populations possess private insurance at far higher percentages. Management salaries have to be paid for somehow. Executives at your typical auto supplier or small tech firm make pocket change compared to management at these "charitable organizations." Ascension will merely point to the ER at St. John's in Detroit and claim that the uncompensated care provided at this one particular facility satisfies the requirements for their tax exempt status. DMC and Henry Ford are left on their own to figure out how to pay for over 70% of the uncompensated care provided for in the entire state. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2006 |
DSH dollars will shift. Plus I am sure if the DMC's indigent burden increases significantly the state will be kind to them (again) and find a way to help. Their CEO did supposedly give the governor her first job in politics after all. The phraseology needed to qualify as not-for-profit at both the state and national level is liberal enough that it seems unlikely that St. John's status will be in jeopardy. Then again, stranger things have happened. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 338 Registered: 11-2006 |
HFH made 135million last year, StJohn/Ascension Health about 80million (I think)....they have learned the lesson that the DMC has not....diversification. Karmanos will save hundreds of millions with this move, and get away from the malignant DMC (it is a cancer hospital after all...pun intended). Duggan is surprised at being stabbed in the back while it was turned to stab WSU, so, it is Karma (I am kidding, but justice seems to be an element of this scenario). Honestly, Riverview was/is going to close anyway, so, the community is no worse off (in fact, to the contrary) than it would have been. Duggan has some powerful friends at the state, and he may be able to slow them down by obstructing the process of the CON transfers for the equipment that would be needed for the move (of course, no such obstacles would be in place if Karmanos wanted to move the same equipment within the DMC campus), he will certainly try. (Message edited by ccbatson on April 24, 2007) | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2006 |
This is getting interesting. The second reply is right on. I doubt it is over the lease. I am not really sure you can say Karmanos is nationally recognized though unless "listed with all cancer centers" is considered national recognition. Most published rankings do not regard it as such. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------- DMC will try to keep Karmanos Institute April 24, 2007 By PATRICIA ANSTETT FREE PRESS MEDICAL WRITER A day after threatening a lawsuit, the chief of the Detroit Medical Center Tuesday said he wants to resolve differences with the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute to keep the cancer program on the DMC's Midtown campus. "We'll sit down first and try to solve our problems," Mike Duggan, DMC's president and chief executive officer, said Tuesday. "We'll talk first and sue later." Dr. Jack Ruckdeschel, Karmanos chief, confirmed Tuesday that DMC and Karmanos leaders would meet early Thursday. "I'm very pleased," Ruckdeschel said. "I don't immediately see how they could make it work but obviously we'd like to hear how they'd address the issues. We look forward to it." The turnabout followed legal threats Duggan made Monday about news that Karmanos wanted to buy St. John Detroit Riverview Hospital and renovate it as a cancer hospital. The DMC and its predecessors have housed programs for Karmanos and its previous agencies for 100 years. Karmanos leaders said moving to Riverview would provide more space at half the cost or about $40 million to $45 million of the $90 million needed to build a cancer hospital on the DMC campus. Duggan offered to negotiate whatever issues Karmanos wishes to raise in hopes of keeping the nationally regarded cancer institute on his campus, including finding it more space. "I love Karmanos; they are a jewel on this campus," Duggan said. He declined to offer other ideas he has to resolve differences, saying he preferred not to negotiate in the media. The DMC board is equally committed to keeping Karmanos at the DMC, said Keith Crain, a DMC board member. The board "has a very strong commitment to cancer care on the downtown campus, and we'll do whatever possible to convince Karmanos that we'd like them to stay," Crain said. Karmanos faces numerous legal, regulatory, financial and civic hurdles before it can open a new cancer hospital by the fall of 2008, at the current St. John Detroit Riverview site, on East Jefferson, near Belle Isle. Tuesday, officials with Karmanos and the St. John Health System, which owns Riverview, met with civic, clergy and media leaders, employees and board members to align support for the move. Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick expressed concerns about closing Riverview, in remarks at a city park to launch a cleanup campaign. "I don't think it's as clean as it sounds," he said Tuesday. "Riverview closing would be a huge loss to the east side of the city of Detroit." Janice Hintz, 64, of Indian Village, opposes the closing of Riverview, where she has received care for nearly 50 years, she said. She likes the small size and family atmosphere of Riverview. "I've never had bad care there," said Hintz, one of the few Riverview patients with private insurance. More than 9 out of 10 have Medicare or Medicaid coverage, which doctors say pays for care at less than what it costs. She wonders who will pick up all the community programs Riverview supported at her church and senior citizen programs. Eliot Joseph, president and chief executive officer of St. John, said the health system is committed to seeing that the Karmanos deal goes through "as planned." St. John is investigating whether it can temporarily offer urgent and primary care services on the Riverview site, if the hospital closes, he said. It also is examining whether it can offer primary and urgent care services, at least temporarily, and is committed to supporting community health screenings and other activities, he said. Free Press Staff Writer Zachary Gorchow contributed to this report. Contact PATRICIA ANSTETT at 313-222-5021 or panstett@freepress.com. . StoryChat * Post a CommentPost a Comment * View all CommentsView All Comments 2dogshowling I am sure the DMC had to put a lot of expense out there to house the service. But, then again, it could be security. Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:18 pm 1970buick The article is missing something - what is there to sue over? The article did not say what basis there would be for a lawsuit. This means that either a. teh Freep didn't ask, or b. Duggan didn't tell. Tempest in a teapot? (Message edited by ortho313 on April 24, 2007) | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2006 |
I'm baaack. Give it to Duggan to play the poverty card as well as now trying to bargain with Karmanos. If this is typical Duggan negotiating, it means that he'll offer you something that only benefits him, has nothing for you and if you don't agree then he will simply go after you. Just look at what he said..."We'll talk first and sue later." Another case in point. When the previous ortho residents decided against being his labor force, he was reported to have said "f$#@ them." After that he continued to screw them by not releasing their CMS funding for their transfers. Those are great negotiating skills Mike. I'm sure McNamara and Granholm would be proud. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 339 Registered: 11-2006 |
If, or when Karmanos leaves, what will be left at the DMC main campus? Revenue positive operations are Childrens, and maybe RIM (probably not, or not for long), and.....that's it. The Harper building including Karmanos has an average census of what? 200? 250? Take away Karmanos and that might leave 150 or less there. Mind you that in the mid to late nineties, before the DMC fired all of their employed Physicians, Harper alone would see 600 patients as a census. The short sighted error there was for the DMC to assume that the patients would not follow the Doctors....they did. Likewise Sinai hospital in the late nineties, the remnants of that error is the current Sinai Grace with huge financial difficulties, plus debt from the buyout of Sinai and a growing uninsured population (although volumes have remained pretty decent...so far). Another similar error now in the works is to assume that without WSU, the DMC will retain residencies, and the revenue from them....wrong again. Now what? the DMC without Karmanos? There will be nothing left soon. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 487 Registered: 10-2006 |
You guys are making great points, but since when is it the responsibility of a hospital to bear the burden of paying for everyone's healthcare. It is the responsibility of the GOVERNMENT to fix our broken healthcare system. Let's make the politicians do their jobs, and stop blaming hospitals who are tired of being stuck with the tab. p.s. Welcome back 313_doc. I was wondering where you were..... | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2006 |
Its not. The government does pay for a large portion of healthcare. Medicare pays better, Medicaid worse. The DSH payments were composed to help make up the difference. The government made a stand already on paying for healthcare with the Balanced Budget Act and how it effected the academic medical centers, particularly in the cities. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2006 |
The hospital has the responsibility to survive (or not) as a business in competition with other hospitals. The payer base is not as much the issue as this is a level playing field (ie all hospitals have to compete for their patients and the payers that carry the patients' insurance. Argueing that the poor DMC is stuck in a geographic area where the payer mix is not good is not a good argument. Why? HFH is in the same area, St John main is not too far either...and they made 135M, and 80M last year. How? Diversification. OK...devils' advocate now...HFH has suburban hospitals and is building a new one, and St John is likewise situated, again, poor DMC....not so. The DMC has HVH, MIOSH, and SGH in Northwest Detroit which could have been made into big revenue centers (but were'nt). Also, HFH and St. John acquired, expanded, or built these satellite endeavors, partnered with the medical staff (meaning they didn't fire them all and piss them off), marketted, and focused on quality measures. Again, the DMC could have done likewise (but didn't). | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 987 Registered: 02-2007 |
Riverview is one of the worst Hospitals in Detroit. They're response is slow as hell compared to the Moross location. Holy Cross would be in a close second. CLOSE IT NOW! | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 988 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Well since St. John is adding a huge 8 story addition to their main medical center in Detroit on Moross on the far east side, I would tend to think that St. John Riverview patients will go there for services and care. Except of course for the indigent care, which will be more likely to go to the closer DMC. (Another shaft for DMC.)" Again, voted Top 100 hospital in th U.S. That's why those people (including me) choose that location. DMC or Henry Ford in the New Center are typically alternatives. What's happening at Riverview and Holy Cross sealed the Fate for poor Saratoga Hospital. | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 40 Registered: 09-2006 |
From all outward appearances I don't really see the "real" issues with the Karmanos-DMC problem. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Karmanos its own separate entity now and has been for some time. It really only rents space from the DMC...that and some certificates for operating certain hospital services, i.e. radiation, ORs etc. Basically Karmanos wants out of their lease. The property owner is objecting. I would love to hear some more elaboration from people who feel that they are in the know. I think that Duggan is more of a revisionist historian and would like to think that DMC-Karmanos-WSU still coexist, but that day has long since past. He only sees the loss of "his" cancer center and all of its prestige, but yet it is not his and hasn't been for some time. Mike, please realize that they simply rent space from you with Xray machines and ORs. When is everyone going to realize that Duggan's 15 minutes are up and if Detroit and Michigan are ever going to get better than they need to rid themselves of the McNamara legacy...er...debauchery. If the problems are arising because of a previous agreement between Karmanos and the DMC to build a new hospital then I guess that we should hold the Karmanos to their word. We should. We should hold them to their agreement just in the same way that we can believe the DMC as Tom Malone so eloquently promised the ortho residents... "The short answer is that we would like the residents to stay and will encourage them to do so with what we believe is a strong program. But if residents look at our plan and then decide it's in their best interest to transfer, DMC will not do anything to try to block them." Well...I guess if by not doing anything to block them you mean not releasing the funding then ...wait...hmmmm. We all know what happened after that and how much we can really trust the DMC and their word. Seems like they'll only hold up the contract if it benefits them. Peace. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 341 Registered: 11-2006 |
Double standards is what the DMC/Duggan are demanding...others should honor agreements and loyalties for moral reasons, but not us...typical left wing politician behavior. Part of me hopes they end up with the short end of the deal. The part that doesn't is concerned about the innocent bystanders (students, clinical faculty, the University, staff, etc). Well, maybe MSU will be able to use the space vacated by Karmanos...MSU, are you paying attention? This is another in an endless line of DMC treachery. Is it a good idea to strike a deal with this devil?? | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2006 |
The DMC is crying poverty (and has been for nearly 15 years now), and they are very likely operating in the red, the degree of the losses is anyone's guess (book cooking is so rampant that you just can't refer to their numbers with any confidence). If their numbers were accurate, the well would have run dry years ago. Compounding the stated yearly losses would give close to a Billion dollars of red ink over the last 15 years...the DMC does not have pockets that deep, even after selling off their assets as they have been doing. Also, if HFH can post a 135million dollar profit this year, the DMC can not argue that they are oppressed and unable to make ends meet. After all, HFH and St Johns revenue and volume growth is only equal to the DMCs losses over time...in other words, patients use the DMC less, and replaced the DMC with competing systems. In simple business terms, the DMC is failing to compete. Solutions? Truly, starting over completely is the only way for something positive to come out of the DMC. Not just a few changes, but everything at the top needs to go...Duggan, the board, the department heads, and the name. Start over from scratch using WSU as the seed (before that relationship is killed off by the current powers that be) and they might have a fighting chance. If not? What happens to businesses that fail to compete? They go out of business and the competition picks up the pieces (those that are worth picking up). | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 41 Registered: 09-2006 |
I wouldn't consider touching the pieces of either the DMC or WSU if their ashes were salted and the ground upon which they occupied was exorcised and left dormant for a thousand years. The DMC is evil and WSU is utterly incompetent. Why do we perpetuate these two institutions when both leaderships are intent on running them into the ground and have little concern for anything but their image and perceived "role" in society. Both of them are justifying their positions based mostly on their history in local healthcare, however they need to wake up and realize that times have changed. Let nature take its course. Please drop the mantra about the care for the under and uninsured. There are better ways to deliver healthcare for this group and both of these parties are not the answer. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1233 Registered: 02-2004 |
Why in the world would WSU want to own any of the DMC hospitals? DRH will never make money without a regional health authority to provide tax dollars. I do agree though that the DMC will not exist in its present form long term. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 345 Registered: 11-2006 |
Who suggested WSU owning hospitals? Not me. This is a public university, they should not be in the business of owning hospitals, rather in the business of educating students. Of the current DMC facilities, MiOSH, HVH, the Novi outpatient facilities, and Rose imaging center are decent assets as is...excellent ones if managed and owned by someone competent. The dead wood? DRH, Harper, RIM downtown, and Harper. Consolidating that mess might yield a small worthwhile facility...probably not worth the effort though. SGH?? probably too far gone to be viable as well. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2006 |
The list in the paper this week said MiOSH is actually losing. I thought that was a bit surprising. They were actively seeking physician investors. RIM shouldn't be losing. It is so easy to deny people in patient rehab, plus they are a huge outpt ancillary facility there is too much opportunity to cherry pick for them to lose money. Some argue that the university's credo that they do not treat patients is at the heart of this whole issue. They always have to have a clinical partner - a hospital system. As funding tightens, the university's mission to teach and treat all comers will even more frequently conflict with the system's eye on the bottom line. Technically, the university physicians only teach through the university. Their clinical responsibilities are really through the physician's group - not the university proper. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2006 |
http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070427/FEATURE S08/70427049 | ||
Soleil9 Member Username: Soleil9 Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2006 |
Riverview is closing. Regardless of what Karmanos does. St. Johns has been trying to dump it for a while. If Karmanos doesn't move, there will be another empty building on Jefferson. It's best that Karmanos just move. To those that are intersested: All of the Residents and Fellowship programs are moving to St. John's Macomb, which currently doesn't have any medical education. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1282 Registered: 01-2005 |
I thought Riverview just opened an expanded clinic facility at Riverview? They've also been buying up property to expand buildings and parking lots, closing streets in the process. I thought business was good. | ||
Gargoyle Member Username: Gargoyle Post Number: 72 Registered: 04-2006 |
Rumors abound at the DMC about construction of a cardiovascular institute. This will apparently include a new building located behind RIM which will house all of cardiology, cardiac cath, and vascular surgery. Where will they get the funding for this? It seems that this specialty is already well covered in the Detroit area. This is allegedly slated for completion within the next 2 years. Anyone else out there able to confirm or deny this rumor? | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 346 Registered: 11-2006 |
Rehab in general is getting squeezed by very harsh Medicare rules (the 75 rule) being rolled out fully over the next 2 years. Yes, a rehab unit or hospital can deny patients easily as was suggested, however, when such a large percentage of a diminishing pool of patient is under insured what is left to occupy the inpatient rehab beds? Volumes are declining everywhere, and faster than elsewhere at RIM for the reasons mentioned above. Where do the patients go? Nursing home rehabs (subacute rehabs), remaining acute rehab units (in smaller numbers), or home. MiOSH is losing.....why? Guess....Duggan and the DMC...the reverse King Midas of the healthcare world...everything that is gold turns to garbage when they touch it. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 352 Registered: 08-2006 |
Crain's has unaudited 2006 numbers for DMC hospitals at the end of this article: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0423/SUB/70420063 | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 354 Registered: 11-2006 |
I don't get those numbers at all as they don't jibe with the reported numbers from the systems themselves. Taken at face value, all of these hospitals appear to be making a fortune, including the DMC!!?? | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2006 |
My calculation is +24.2M actual, +12.4M predicted. I thought they were bragging a +33M year. Not that far off considering the quantities. The DMC got a huge advance in their DSH payments this year though, rumored 30M - money that won't be there next year. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2007704300348 I missed the part of the proposed sale that included St. John's saying the poor people deserve to lose their hospital because they are "irresponsible and unwilling to do what is necessary to improve their lives and become contributing members of society". What about the millions the DMC took away from improving care for the poor to buy billboard rites for the professional teams in the area. The role of the African American ministers in the whole WSU/DMC "resolution" is also rumored to be much larger than reported. Without sounding like a conspiracy theorist, this editorial sounds as much like a "DMC News" e-mail as anything else. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 380 Registered: 11-2006 |
I still don't get it. These numbers would have been front page news if the DMC went from break even by creative accounting a year ago, to 32 million profit. Volumes are still down, it just does not make any sense to me. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 354 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote:Perhaps the +33 comes from the "downtown campus," i.e., excluding losses from MiOSH, Sinai-Grace, and clinics. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 383 Registered: 11-2006 |
Maybe it is the "unaudited" descriptor that explains it all. I don't believe that anything dramatically positive has happened for the DMC financially in ther last year to account for 33 million in profit...actually, I believe their ability to break even over the last couple of years was due to accounting practices and selling off assets. Excluding these "adjustments" would reveal ongoing losses over those same years. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2006 |
If they did get a $30M advance in DSH payments, that would be enough to keep them out of the minus column. I do not know how/if this can be confirmed. They have spent a ton to replace ortho and buy marketing rights to the teams around town. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 388 Registered: 11-2006 |
And what about revenue? Volumes aren't up, payer mixes aren't better, so..... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 401 Registered: 11-2006 |
Rumor has it that the Karmanos is reconsidering the St John deal. I shudder to think what the DMC had to do to sway them and who is going to pay for it in the long run if they (the DMC) prevail. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 360 Registered: 08-2006 |
Riverview is closing. Doesn't matter whether Karmanos takes over that space or not: Riverview is closing. What puzzles me is how a DMC re-negotiation could overcome the operating room CoN deadlines that Karmanos was facing. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2006 |
Being that CON's are distributed at a state level, it is probably little more than a phone call away for the DMC CEO or his friend the governor. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2006 |
Agreed, the rules don't usually apply to those favored by Granholm, and the public would never hear about such machinations and manipulations as the press is loyal to the left. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1258 Registered: 02-2004 |
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0508/REG/70508006/1043 As promised, Duggan's got his lawyers going after Karmanos. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 467 Registered: 11-2006 |
Well, there goes any hope the DMC would have for a negotiated agreement with Karmanos...poof. WHat does Duggan envision happeneing even in a best case scenario after this lawsuit? it is not as if Karmanos will forget this ever happened and proceed with good faith business as usual. Duggan, being the lawyer he is, fails to realize that the presence of litigation is highly destructive and to be avoided at all costs. Are you paying attention MSU? How could MSU agree to work with the DMC? Everything they get near turns to junk. Are there any relationships with the DMC that have not ended disastrously? | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 51 Registered: 09-2006 |
The Tigers? | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 41 Registered: 09-2006 |
LOL^^^ | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 478 Registered: 11-2006 |
Excellent reply, very clever. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 374 Registered: 08-2006 |
QUICK QUIZ: where did Joel Zumaya get his finger repaired? | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 52 Registered: 09-2006 |
New Yawk...The DMC probably has the worst relationships with hand surgeons, more so than any other ortho sub-specialty... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 482 Registered: 11-2006 |
Considering the former Chief was a hand surgeon and we all know how badly that relationship ended, it is no surprise. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4285 Registered: 08-2004 |
Geeze, you folks make it so easy... ... yeah they couldn't even get a hand job out of the DMC...  | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 483 Registered: 11-2006 |
clever, if a bit too off color for my taste. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2006 |
What about M. Schneider? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9124 Registered: 10-2003 |
Eliot Joseph certainly comes off as an uncaring, condescending prick in today's free press: quote: So the burden of caring for these people is to big and costs too much for St. John but will be a financial boom for the DMC. That seems to be as contradictory as possible. quote: If you are going to run strictly as a business that contradicts your mission and tax exempt status have the balls to come out and say it. Granted I don't know the guy but he certainly made himself sound like a piece of garbage with these quotes. It may be a few quotes that were selectively chosen but it may show reality. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1672 Registered: 11-2003 |
Agreed, Jt1. Either way, it looks like Riverview Hospital will close: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070510/BUS INESS06/705100484 quote: | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1673 Registered: 11-2003 |
An article today on the Riverview closing and St. John's "non-profit" status: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2007705110415 quote: | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 498 Registered: 11-2006 |
Not going to happen...a huge waste of taxpayer money to pursue this frivolous lawsuit for Duggans' political ends. As if the federal government is going to revoke the tax exempt status of all, or part, of a large multistate catholic organizations' hospitals. I can assure you they fulfill the criteria for tax exemption as well as any hospital (WBH, HFH, an...the DMC). | ||
313_doc Member Username: 313_doc Post Number: 53 Registered: 09-2006 |
These last two days especially are proof positive that the DMC spin machine is in high gear. If you really look at the nuts and bolts of the issue it is a lot easier to digest and comprehend without the emotional propaganda being put forth to sway the masses. I will agree that it is terrible that many of the Riverview employees are going to lose their jobs. However, when you take a step back, this seems like just another day in this Michigan economy. As for the "charitable" issue I honestly find this the most troubling. Duggan has stirred up the masses and gotten the support of the unions and the church leaders to support his platform by convincing them that a business should just lose money. Yes, I said business, because when it comes down to it, a hospital and medicine for that matter is a business. I know some people are going to disagree and talk about a duty or a calling of a hospital to serve, but the honest truth is that somewhere, someone has to pay the bills. The company that makes the IV fluid or the dressings or that does the laundry is not going to do that for free. The people that work in the hospital aren't going to work for free, so somehow, the hospital has to come up with the money to pay for these goods and services. There comes a time in every business that you have to say enough is enough. The real problem with St. John is that they don't have a close friend in Lansing to give them money to stay afloat. If they did, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's sad that so many people can't see the facts but are instead swept up in a sea of emotion. The reason that the DMC can stay afloat is probably a combination of creative bookkeeping, the surplus of CMS funds from GME education and don't forget about Jenny. This is like talking about apples and oranges with St. John and the DMC. I am not going to deny that Detroit has many un/underinsured people and widespread poverty and urban blight. However, these issues are not going to be solved at the local level and it is wrong to blame a local entity for something that is well beyond their means to fix. The latest rumor is that Duggan has offered Hutzel to Karmanos to stay. Who knows what that means for the MSU proposal. Just wait for Karmanos to try and keep moving out and for their CON to suddenly run into issues...If only this was a soap opera. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 504 Registered: 11-2006 |
The DMC lawsuit against Karmanos will almost ceainly guarantee that they will pursue leaving/not stay. In typical Duggan style, he will play as many dirty tactics as are available (or more) to make it painful for Karmanos. Mind you, He has nothing to gain by this, but that is his MO, vindication (in his own mind). Medicine is, and always has been, a business. As you point out, poor business practices means an inability to provide the valuable services. In other words, patients benefit when hospitals utilize successful business practices. How the DMC stays afloat is a question I have been wondering about for the last 10 years. It only makes sense if they have literally billions in capital. Book cooking aside, they have, on balance, been losing about 60Million a year for the last 12 or so years. That is 3/4 of a billion dollars!! How long can they sustain this? If Karmanos leaves, WSU splits off and the DMC can't restart residencies on its' own, and the MSU deal falls through...they are toast. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 524 Registered: 11-2006 |
Things are heating up again in the soap opera that is the DMC-WSU-MSU-Karmanos. Per the Free Press today, it appears that Duggan has some opponents on the left (his side) again, and they are getting some press which is a sign that they have influence. It should be interesting to see what shakes out in the next couple of weeks on the MSU COM, and Karmanos fronts. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2006 |
Daily articles in the Free Press...this is getting interesting. | ||
Jk_one Member Username: Jk_one Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2007 |
Well it appears that MSU is coming per the comments from the MSU Trustees in the News today. Do you guys really think that 50 students, mostly classroom based, is even going to be noticable across a campus that is like 2 billion square feet? It is amazing Irv Reid and Dean Mentzer are going to everyone they can to issue warnings (The Detroit News/Free Press, Detroit City Council, MSU Board via 2 MSU field trips, former state Senators) and getting our WSU SOM students whipped-up as if these 50 MSU Oesteopathic students are going to storm the WSU School of Medicine like Chuck Norris in his best action flicks. Come on...it's 50 students at Huron Valley. And they're DO's to boot. Commerce township - moving on up! This reaction is still quite surprising. If WSU wanted to protect its turf, then our good Dean Mentzer shouldn't (back in October) made all those statements about how good our UPG diversification plan was etc, etc. Makes him look like Chicken Little now. I still can't wait to get our practice up and running in the new Troy building. I think the last development plans had site to start up in 2012 or somewhere around then. Drive by the place everyday....still looks dark inside. Also, I heard on Dean Mentzer's blog that to save cost MSU is not even going to order their own lab coats. Their just going steal ours and cut out the "W", flip it around, glue it back on to make an "M". Those sinister Spartans. | ||
Ortho313 Member Username: Ortho313 Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2006 |
Tough to get behind the complaints about MSU COM moving in. Pre-clinical space is of no issue. Clinical spaces can be spread between SGH, HV, plus there will be DMC sole-sponsorred residencies including peds at CHM, there is no WSU ortho, ENT, or derm presence at DMC. Peds chose to be a DMC, not WSU/DMC program/dept. Can't expect them not to support and teach the MSU students renting a lot of valuable space in a vacant part of their employer's property. When the Troy building was purchased I did not recall hearing it would be "up and running" in spring '07. That is not what the ACGME was told during their site visit. Apparently the expectations moved up drastically and have subsequently lapsed by the above observations. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 563 Registered: 11-2006 |
I don't get how MSU can turn a blind eye to the unending treachery of the DMC against its' own Doctors, medical school, students, resident physicians, and patients. Do they (MSU) think they will be any different? Do they have a secret weapon that will protect them from the DMC when (not if) their interests conflict? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1264 Registered: 02-2004 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070516/BUS INESS06/70516022 I guess this is no surprise since it was rumored for weeks. I still kind of thought Henry Ford would end up with Bon Secours though. Good move for Beaumont. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1023 Registered: 12-2006 |
I'll miss Bon Secours on the sole basis that that's where I was born. Hopefully Beaumont will be as good. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 577 Registered: 11-2006 |
Positive moves for both of the new owners, and the patients. The hospitals were floundering under the former owner, and the new owners are trying to break into new markets with the purchase. To do so, they wi need to come out swinging and impress their customers. |
