Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Kensington Park Previous Next
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Gibran
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Username: Gibran

Post Number: 240
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What has happened to Stoney Creek, Kensington and other county parks are they still a destination?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8925
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps but yes, Detroit taxpayers are still paying upwards of 4-5MM a year to support parks that 30% of them can't get to.

But at least the people that live around there will have their property values maintained by everyone in the region.

HCMA - The biggest scam (this side of insurance) in Metro Detroit.
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Spitcoff
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Username: Spitcoff

Post Number: 97
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the metro parks a great. I play disc golf and almost all the metro parks have a course
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Gibran
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Username: Gibran

Post Number: 242
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HCMA? what is the issues...I remember as a kid enjoying the parks....many great memories...
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 504
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure about Stoney Creek, but I live near Kensington MP and it seems to get more crowded every year. And contrary to what some might believe many of those people are making the trip from Detroit and the inner suburbs (especially on summer weekends). It's a great place to spend the afternoon.
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Eric_w
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Username: Eric_w

Post Number: 147
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 4:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like the Metro Parks. In my view a rare example of good government-a Quasi-public venture that has kept some beautiful land available for public access & use. I've been to others all over and enjoy the immensely.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 890
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 5:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was at Kensington last Sunday riding my bike on the trail around the lake. It appears they are adding a small water park with water slides at Martindale Beach. The park was pretty active, lost of people playing Disc Golf, Jogging and bike riding.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1027
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 5:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I used to bike the 6-mile path around the lake at Stoney Creek when I lived in Royal Oak, up until last year...was a bit of a drive but worth it...

There were always plenty of people there...

Now I'm within 5 minutes of Maybury...never been there but plan to check it out this spring
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1028
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 5:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JT1:

I'm unfamiliar with HMCA...can you educate those of us who don't know the details...I'm interested to learn

Also, it seems to me that anyone who doesn't have the financial means to get to these parks probably isn't paying much, if anything, in taxes to the city in the first place...
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 2024
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 5:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HCMA = Huron Clinton Metropolitan Authority
http://www.metroparks.com/

(Message edited by Jimaz on April 26, 2007)
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 1440
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Now I'm within 5 minutes of Maybury...never been there but plan to check it out this spring



Nice park. I like the living farm part but the trails are nice too. They also have horseback riding.
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Gibran
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Username: Gibran

Post Number: 250
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks Jimaz...how is the quality of the lake at Kensington? I remember observing the water quality decrease...have they cleaned it up?

Used to canoe on the lake and picnic on the isles.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1030
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"HCMA = Huron Clinton Metropolitan Authority"

yeah, that much I knew..I was more interested in the specifics of the funding, which JT1 seemed to ba familiar with
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Rockcity2windycity
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Username: Rockcity2windycity

Post Number: 143
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I Love Kensington Park its my favorite park around. Why can't people from Detroit get there? Just take 96. Oh yea, i hate metro beach!
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8926
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 7:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the fact that there is a metro wide tax that is required to support parks that all 20+ miles outside of Detroit is bs.


The fact that I have to pay a regional tax when we (Detroiters) have to subsidize things like the DIA, DHM, CHWAAM, etc is garbage.

I think it is ridiculous that Detroit gets $50K in 'programming' from HCMA for Belle Isle and the State Fair Grounds is garbage.

MY taxes are going to support property values in the region but HCMA is unwilling to invest a penny in Belle Isle or the Fair Grounds because they plead poverty is ridiculous. I have spoken to the director of HCMA and he as insisted that they can't help BI or the Fairgrounds because they are broke but they are continually spending millions on capital projects like a water slide.

I think that the city should push to get a portion of the amount we pay re-directed to BI. HCMA has 0 interest in the city and has said as much. Allow me to opt out of the millage or allow me to redirect it to my local parks and rec.

It is funny and sad that in a region that is so against paying for anything in the city, the city is required to pay for parks that are 20 miles away.

If you want to debate the topic I am happy to.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 893
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget there is an entrance fee and/or annual passes and boat trailering fees at the Metro Parks. This too pays for improvements.

Jt1, do you know (or anyone else) know the official story behind why Belle Isle is not part of HCMA? I know there was a big controversy, but what were the details.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8927
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The most recent thing is that the city asked for assistance at BI and HCMA stated they didn't have the money.

I love the fact that people get worked up over a hotel tax for Cobo that most of them do not contribute to but it is acceptable to take .2 Mills of Detroiters money for parks 20 miles away. I am all for regionalization and would support HCMA is there was any level of regionalization here. Unfortunately this is a case of regionalism of convenience when it benefits the suburbs.

In the mean time I will pay my .2 Mills (because I don't have a choice) and also have my taxes support regional institutions in the city since the metro area voted against supporting those.

The hypocrisy is what pisses me off.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 547
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I constantly here about the residents in the City of Detroit "subsidizing" the suburbs. Can someone please provide data on this? I would also like someone with the knowledge to show what the sources of revenue are that fund the Detroit city budget.

I cannot seem to find anything on this. I am not saying it is not happening, I would just like to see the supporting data.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8928
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not think that the city subsidizes existing suburbs but the entire State subsidizes sprawl and the metro region including Detroit subsidize HCMA.

I think your post would be a different subject all together since this is only about HCMA.
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Rjk
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Username: Rjk

Post Number: 691
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As an Oakland County resident I'm 15 miles away from the closest Metro Park (Stoney Creek). Obviously you're not going to have large parks in urban areas. They're going to have to be on the outskirts of the metro area. Jt1, you may live 20 miles away from the parks, but that's not the case with all Detroiters. A good number of Detroiters live closer to a MP than many suburbanites do.

I don't for a second believe that Detroit ever wanted BI to be part of the Metro Parks. There's not the political will to allow that to happen. Any politician who pushed that idea through would get voted out of office for giving up a city jewel to outsiders. Not to mention that the $4 admission fee that the Metro Parks charge would never fly in Detroit.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8929
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

A good number of Detroiters live closer to a MP than many suburbanites do.



I think 'a good number' is an exaggeration. How about those with no transportation?

quote:

I don't for a second believe that Detroit ever wanted BI to be part of the Metro Parks.



When the city approached HCMA for assistance with BI and the State Fairgrounds HCMA politely said fuck off, just give us your money. They have actually cut the funding that they had for activities at the Fairgrounds and greatly reduced the few dollars they used for programming at BI.

Explain to me how the money Detroiters send to HCMA is better for Detroiters at HCMA than going to city parks and rec? We live in a region that is against regionalism unless it is to their benefit like HCMA.

Now before you throw out the 'they can manage the money better' argument I have to say that I requested a copy of the budget which is a very, very large bound budget. I received it, then another, then another. Yep, one request for one copy and I end up with three.

I suggest that you request their budget and do some research.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8930
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is one project by HCMA that was pleading poverty when approached by the city:

quote:

Construction Starts for Turtle Cove
A groundbreaking ceremony on August 31 officially began the construction of Turtle Cove Family Aquatic Center at Lower Huron Metropark.

Once completed, this $9.4-million facility will feature two waters slides, an activity pool, a lazy river and a waterspray area. The shallow section of the pool will have a zero-depth entry and water play features, such as ground sprays for children; the deeper end will have a lap swimming area. Slides, sprays and a dumping bucket of water will be the focal point of the waterspray area. Covering more than five acres, Turtle Cove will accommodate up to 1,400 people.

The largest redevelopment project undertaken by the Metroparks, Turtle Cove will replace the swimming pool at Lower Huron, which opened in 1958. The existing pool will stay open for the 2007 summer season until the new facility is completed, which is projected for 2008.

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Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 894
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 8:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found something from a while back, both for and against.

quote:

In the early 1970s Detroiters voted to let the Huron-Clinton Metropark Authority run Belle Isle's facilities and maintain its grounds. The plan was torpedoed in 1972 when voters in the Metropark counties turned down a tax increase that would have allowed the acquisition and others.

"Privatization is an ugly word in this city," said Tom Wilson Jr., a board member with Friends of Belle Isle. He said transferring the island's ownership would be political suicide for elected officials, but it still ought to be explored. "By any means necessary, as Malcolm X said. If Huron-Clinton could take it over and run it more efficiently than the city has, maybe we should let them do so."

A Metroparks spokeswoman said Monday that no such proposal has been presented to the authority.

"We're not turning over one of our major facilities to Huron Valley," Deputy Mayor Anthony Adams said. "If anything, Huron Valley needs to invest more money in our facilities."




The above are all quotes from
here
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Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk

Post Number: 692
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 9:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, since when can cities simply ask the HMCA for funds to help run their parks? If they are allowed to do that this is something that isn't right to me. I don't care whether it's Detroit, Royal Oak, Woodhaven, or any other city in the 5 county area. The regional tax money should be spent by the regional authority.

You mentioned that you have the budget that you requested. Doesn't the city of Detroit also have access to the HMCA budget? You mean to tell me that the city of Detroit was told by the HMCA that they didn't have any money when they actually did? If I'm paying a regional tax I would hope that the politicians that I vote for are clued in a lot more than what you are suggesting took place in Detroit. It just doesn't make sense to me.

By the way do you have a link that can back up this claim that the city asked for money and was told that there was no money by the HMCA?
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8933
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 9:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You mentioned that you have the budget that you requested. Doesn't the city of Detroit also have access to the HMCA budget? You mean to tell me that the city of Detroit was told by the HMCA that they didn't have any money when they actually did? If I'm paying a regional tax I would hope that the politicians that I vote for are clued in a lot more than what you are suggesting took place in Detroit. It just doesn't make sense to me.



Where did I say it made sense. HCMA insisted they did not have the funds when approached but are investing millions in capital projects. It isn't a matter that the city officials don't know it is a matter that HCMA pretty much says fuck off and that is that. Knowing the money is there doesn't make a bit of difference if they have no access to it or control of it.


quote:

By the way do you have a link that can back up this claim that the city asked for money and was told that there was no money by the HMCA?



It was in conversations so there is no link. You are more than welcome to call HCMA and speak with them yourself as well as city officials.

The point is that cities should not be forced to pay into HCMA when they don't have sufficient parks and rec funds of their own. As a taxpayer in the city of Detroit I find it ridiculous that HCMA collects money from the city but will not help with the exception of very nominal dollars. The point is that it is another case of regionalism when it is beneficial for the suburbs.

Name any other regional projects. The problem is one of pure hypocrisy. HCMA which benefits the suburbs much more is supported regionally. Arts and cultural institutions in the city are supported only by the city. Why did that get killed so badly by the voters?

HCMA is the epitome of hypocrisy in this region.

Instead of just questioning everything I ask that you speak with people at HCMA and see their stance on anything Detroit (except our money). They have cut what was at one point hundreds of thousands of dollars at BI and the Fair grounds to I believe 50K while investing millions upon millions in other projects.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 554
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 9:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the folks in Detroit don't like subsidizing the Metro Parks, then make the case to your representatives in city government and stop it.

Once again, this thread is full of speculation and very little factual data. How many Detroiters DO visit Metro Parks? Seems like that could be relevant yet nobody really knows. The BS about funding parks "they can't get to" is utter nonsense, Kensington and others are within 30 minutes of Detroit.

Where is the proof that the people of Detroit kick in 4-5 million dollars per year?

By the way Jt1, the topic of this thread is "Kensington Park" NOT THE HCMA and all of the funding BS you are talkiing about so don't tell me to start another thread just because I question your assertions.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8934
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PG - Kensington is part of HCMA. Your question was a general question that had nothing to do with Kensington or HCMA.

I did not suggest starting a new thread because you questioned me. I suggested it because it was completely out of left field.

As for within 30 minutes that is great if you have a car. The last info I saw showed that over 30% of residents of the city did not have a car. They must run really quick if they can get there within 30 minutes.

quote:

Where is the proof that the people of Detroit kick in 4-5 million dollars per year?



It is in reading the budget and determining the amount levied on city residents.

The tone of your post certainly isn't very gentleman like. Heck, I even answered your question in what I thought was a decent manner.

It really doesn't matter what I post here since you won't believe any of it in the first place. Instead of ignoring the numbers that I have researched why not do it yourself then get back to me if I'm wrong since you aren't willing to accept what I say.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8935
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As for the numbers I may be off a bit since I don't have them in front of me. It may be 3-4, not 4-3. Significant amount og taxpayer dollars either way.
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Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 895
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If 30% can't, than 70% can. That's pretty good.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8936
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So those that support HCMA. I pose a question:

What did you vote on the arts tax and what do you think about the hotel tax for Cobo.
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Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 556
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is not a question of whether I believe you or not, it is that you rant about funding something that you say people can't use and that is not the case, then you admit you don't have the numbers and can't remember what they were.

By your logic all persons who do not own cars should not pay taxes for anything they cannot "get to." Hmmm...

And sorry, your tangent had nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8937
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My point is about the hypocrisy of this being a regional tax when seemingly every other regional tax gets killed immediately.

I don't have the numbers because I am still at the office and they are at home. They were in the millions annually. Is that sufficient.

quote:

By your logic all persons who do not own cars should not pay taxes for anything they cannot "get to." Hmmm...



No, my point is that we have a regional tax that is supported because the primary benefactors live in the suburbs but anything that benefits the city such as the arts proposal or even mention of maintaining a hotel tax for Cobo gets people in an uproar about how Detroit is looking for a handout.

The point is the hypocrisy of our region. Do you disagree?
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Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 897
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

So those that support HCMA. I pose a question:

What did you vote on the arts tax and what do you think about the hotel tax for Cobo.



I voted yes on the Arts Tax, and I support the Hotel Tax for COBO.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8938
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Appreciate the answer. In that regard then it is fair that you support the HCMA tax as well.

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