Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Urban center grocery stores Previous Next
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 10:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you ever shop for groceries in Manhattan? Here are the things I noticed after shopping on the upper west side a couple of times:
1. The stores are open and welcoming to the street and to foot traffic.
2. They have many more products on the shelves, but not as many units of each product as we see here. More variety on the shelves.
3. They deliver within 20 blocks. Free. This is important when you don't drive to the store. Stores over in Brooklyn are more likely to have small parking lots, even in very dense areas, although I can't vouch for that being universal.
4. Local owners instead of national chains. At least it appears that way on the surface.
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Innovator
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Username: Innovator

Post Number: 61
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 10:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you ever shop for groceries in the CBD? Here are the things I noticed after living in the CBD for a couple years:
1. The grocery stores are awful.
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 404
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 10:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

innovator, NOT true. ... well, maybe in the CBD specifically... but the big players for me are

Honey Bee Market - SW detroit, one of the best run super markets in the state, PERIOD

University Foods - very fine store... a little lacking on produce...

if you're in the CBD, what's wrong with harbor town market?
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Innovator
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Username: Innovator

Post Number: 62
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 10:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I mean, look, he was comparing Detroit to Manhattan. Those places you mentioned are all more suburban than urban. I've never visited Honey Bee Market, but u-foods and harbortown are basically both in strip malls. But the bottom line is that the CBD (freeway loop, which Harbortown is outside of by a mile or so) lacks a good option for groceries that is accessible by foot to prospective downtown residents.

I guess I don't really see the point of the original post beyond, hey, cool and convenient things happen when you have densities exceeding 100 persons/acre.
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Detroite
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Username: Detroite

Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 12:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think Harbor Town Market is in the CBD. It's just west of Belle Isle...
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Neilr
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Username: Neilr

Post Number: 501
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 12:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parkguy, I agree about NYC food stores. I can't imagine a food store that I'd rather shop in than Fairway Market on Broadway and 74th Street on the Upper West Side. The flowers and much of the produce are outside the building right on Broadway. The aisles are very tight and jammed with products. The bakery and deli counters are like nothing in Detroit. Every checkout line has two clerks and baggers and there in a line manager to keep things flowing. When in NYC, I almost (but not really) regret that I eat out every single night, so all I usually buy is diet coke, baked goods, flowers, fruit and cereal.

To me, the biggest difference between Fairway and our situation here in Detroit is not so much in the store itself; but the fact that there are countless thousands of middle and upper income people who live within walking distance of the store. We do not yet have that dense mass of such residents in Detroit.

I've started doing some of my shopping at Market Fresh, a small market at the corner of 13 Mile and Southfield. In a fashion, it reminds me of a very small version of Fairway Market.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 4:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Neilr--
Actually, I've been to Fairway, and it is a great store, at least from my limited exposure. To respond to Innovator, the original post was just an observation or two. I understand that the Detroit area has one of the slimmest profit margins of any area of the country for grocers. Maybe that is why A&P is selling off Farmer Jack. And I know that the monthly food stamp schedule creates a boom and bust cycle for grocers in high-poverty areas. But, with Farmer Jack on the way out, are we going to end up with Kroger, Meijer, and WalMart in the suburbs for the middle-income shopper, and a few high-end retailers scattered around? Where are the independent urban grocers you can find elsewhere?
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 745
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 4:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NYC has plenty of chain stores... Fine Fair, CTown, Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Food Emporium...
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Urbanoutdoors
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Username: Urbanoutdoors

Post Number: 294
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 4:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing I have liked about University is that they are always willing to work with you and take your suggestions on displays and on what products to get in. It just takes a little initiative but Norman, Eddie and Rodney all are willing to work with the community to meet customers needs. Also they do make a valiant effort to come to community meetings and show that they care about the community.

ParkGuy great point about the stamps schedule it does make it hard for any grocery store to survive and have a consistent employment to suit its client base.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1188
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 5:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Did you ever shop for groceries in the CBD? Here are the things I noticed after living in the CBD for a couple years:
1. The grocery stores are awful"

Same here. All the grocery stores outside of the main "growth zone" are god awful. Now the Honey Bee and what not are just isolated stores that aren't even actually IN the CBD. Another thing I've noticed is that stores around and outside the CBD has a very LIMITED selection. I'm sure half the time people downtown probably have to drive to the Farmer Jack on Jefferson or the nearest Mega box stores to get the variety of name brands they like.
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Mackcreative
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Username: Mackcreative

Post Number: 63
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 5:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

University Foods has made great strides in their produce recently and their expanding selection of organic and health foods, they really are trying to meet the needs of everyone who shops there.
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Nainrouge
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Username: Nainrouge

Post Number: 182
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 5:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parkguy said " I understand that the Detroit area has one of the slimmest profit margins of any area of the country for grocers."

A study by Social Compact found:

Grocery stores in the study area exceeded the ICSC national sales average of $355 per sq. ft.; grocery stores in Greater Downtown average sales of $855 per sq. ft.

There was a $55.7 million demand and 136,000 sq. ft. potential for grocery stores
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 9:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nainrouge said: Grocery stores in the study area exceeded the ICSC national sales average of $355 per sq. ft.; grocery stores in Greater Downtown average sales of $855 per sq. ft.

That is amazing-- it makes it even more of a mystery as to why it is so difficult to attract grocers! I'm glad to see that Social Compact's alternative research is being made more visible.
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Urbanoutdoors
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Username: Urbanoutdoors

Post Number: 295
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 11:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The biggest issues that inner city stores have is theft. Of goods and of grocery carts. University has put the invisible fence system in place so that they will not have to put up a visible barrier. Yes it can be annoying but much more aesthetically pleasing than a barrier. they have also put up a lot of security precautions so that they can prevent night time theft. If more stores took a look at those methods there could be a lot more successful grocery stores in detroit. Most just don't want to put up the investment.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 961
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 12:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Jewel store here in Chicago has a system where the cart's wheels lock if you take them outside the parking lot. Every now and then, you see carts blocking the exits because someone tried to steal them, they locked up, and then they just left them there because they're immovable.
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Why
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Username: Why

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urbanoutdoors is right on the money. I've seen, first hand, the late night "urban" shoppers in Dearborn walking through with 3/4 length down coats on (way out of season I might add) demanding a special cut of meat from a butcher that isn't there at 3:00 a.m. and throwing a typical Detroit hissy fit because they can't get what they want when they want it. There is no reason any level headed major grocer would try to set foot in the city of Detroit and I'm sure many now have second thoughts about the suburbs.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1201
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 2:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"My Jewel store here in Chicago has a system where the cart's wheels lock if you take them outside the parking lot. Every now and then, you see carts blocking the exits because someone tried to steal them, they locked up, and then they just left them there because they're immovable."

Kroger had the same system. Funny thing is, once they left their 7 Mile and Gratiot location, they solg/gave some of their carts to Saveway over on 7 Mile.
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Nainrouge
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Username: Nainrouge

Post Number: 183
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 8:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aldi stores use a system where you have to put a quarter in to get the cart. This solves the problem of theft and makes people not leave the carts in the parking lot. Of course the carts are worth more than a quarter, put it seems to be enough of a deterrent that people won't steal the carts.
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Urbanoutdoors
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Username: Urbanoutdoors

Post Number: 299
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 10:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Other methods used by University are non breakable glass and roll down automatic doors so that it is almost impossible to break in at night. One complaint though is that there security harasses customers because they are so concerned about someone stealing a 10 dollar steak. Unfortunately that is the one down side to university, but they will do what ever it takes to keep there customers. They do have the cleanest grocery store floors in the city though...
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 343
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 12:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some questions I have, from the point of view of anyone who might consider opening a grocery in downtown Detroit.

1. What are the locations appropriately zoned for this; in other words, where could someone put a grocery if they wanted to?

2. How would people get to and from the grocery? If they are walking for the most part, then my question is how many people live within 1/4 mile of my store? If they are driving, then do I have to spend my own money and use up my own real estate on a nonproductive parking lot? They are not using transit, which is a big difference between Detroiters and New Yorkers.

3. If I were to offer local delivery (a great idea), where can I park while making my deliveries? In New York, it is an accepted practice for delivery vehicles to park illegally and nobody bothers them about it; would the City of Detroit give delivery trucks the same benefit?

I think the problem lies within the answers to these questions. All big cities have got more or less of a crime problem. Somebody will open a grocery if they think it's economically feasible; obviously nobody thinks it is.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 748
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 12:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"In New York, it is an accepted practice for delivery vehicles to park illegally and nobody bothers them about it;"

That is not true at all.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 344
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm going from personal experience. In downtown Chicago you have the lower-level streets so in those areas the delivery vehicles tend to stay underground. But in New York I've been in Manhattan several times and have seen delivery trucks double and triple parked while the parking enforcement vehicles cruise right past.

It was exaggeration to say nobody bothers them, but in my experience that is how the delivery truck system more or less works there. If somebody has been there more often or more recently, and can tell us how businesses in New York get things delivered if it's not how I said, please do.
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Gotdetroit
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Username: Gotdetroit

Post Number: 40
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know about all that, but I'm thinking a great spot would be the short two story building on the west side of the Fyfe. As for shoppers, you'd have the Fyfe, Kales, Trolley, Brush Park, Book Caddy, Merchants Row residents within walking distance. Millender and many other spaces I don't know about downtown with People Mover access.
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Neilr
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Username: Neilr

Post Number: 502
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Professorscott, I believe that most food delivery in NYC is done by hand pushcarts, at least on the Upper West Side and Upper East Side. The delivery men, and they all seem to be men, usually are newly arrived immigrants from Africa or Mexico or Central or South America. I believe that a good part of their income comes from tips.

In the past several years, several internet grocery stores have started up in NYC. They do deliver by trucks. Freshdirect, I believe is the biggest. The food comes to your apartment in brown boxes usually. And you are right about the operation of delivery trucks in NYC. There are virtually no alleys (except in Strivers' Row) so all deliveries, trash pick-up, moving vans, etc. double park on the side streets. It's a way of life there.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the density of these neighborhoods allows stores to operate in ways that may not work here.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 749
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, double parking in New York is not illegal under certain circumstances.

Delivery trucks do get tickets and I see it fairly often. In midtown and lower Manhattan, almost all available street parking is strictly for commercial vehicles (until after midnight I believe). These areas are also almost always metered and very closely monitored.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 345
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Other than the parking discussion, does anyone have any of the answers to the questions I posed?

I realize density in the Detroit CBD is not as high as Manhattan, but that's true of every Detroit suburb that does have grocery stores as well. And I don't just mean your big-box grocery which requires a great deal of land and massive parking; there are plenty of nice indies in the 'burbs. So the reason there isn't such an animal in the CBD must come down to something else.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 750
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"So the reason there isn't such an animal in the CBD must come down to something else."

My money is on tradition. People are just starting to awaken to the idea of the CBD being a thriving area again.
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 203
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 2:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would venture to say that it is because they don't make money.
It might be due to theft.
It might be due to low volume sales.
It might be local consumers tend to purchase low margin products.
It might be difficult to get reliable help.
It might be difficult to get fire insurance.
it might be difficult to get deliveries.

I just don't know. But, the bottom line is this- If they could make money then stores would open.
A survey of metro-Detroit area grocery store owners and managers would might shed some light.
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Nainrouge
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Username: Nainrouge

Post Number: 184
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 8:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the "if they could make money, they would open a store" or "since they don't open a store here, they must not be able to make money" arguments are valid. Businessmen are also human beings and have biases and prejudices just like anyone else. I think part of the problem is that there is a focus on trying to bring in big national chains and not trying to grow and support some of the local entrepreneurs. The national stores can go anywhere in the United States. Why would they go to the downtown Detroit area? Ask someone from out of town about Detroit and they will say "Oh yeah, the murder capital". This is an attitude that will take years (and years of decreasing crime) to live down. In the meantime, we should be supporting local businessmen who understand the city, know the people and aren't afraid of big bad Detroit. I think that we should offer any incentive possible to get a large grocery store opened downtown. Offer to build the store for them if need be! In my opinion, this would be a cost effective way to revitalize the city and to continue the boom in condo sales. If we can offer big tax incentives to large business to move downtown, we should be able to convince a grocer to do so too! The city just needs to see it as a priority.
Oh, and please offer the incentives to a local business person with a track record of running a successful market elsewhere in Detroit.
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Nainrouge
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Username: Nainrouge

Post Number: 185
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 9:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This may have been posted here before, but I thought it was appropriate....

Group Maps City Access to Healthy Foods
by Dan Charles
http://www.npr.org/templates/s tory/story.php?storyId=7097476


A group in Philadelphia is using high-tech mapping technologies to show that people in poor neighborhoods need more places to shop for healthy food.

In the late 1890s, the civil-rights pioneer W.E.B. Du Bois created a map of houses in a narrow strip of central Philadelphia. The map showed houses where African-Americans lived, highlighted and color-coded to indicate their class. For Amy Hillier, professor at the University of Pennsylvania School of Design, Du Bois' map is a professional inspiration.

Hiller is trying to walk in the footsteps of Du Bois. Using a technique called Geographic Information Systems (GIS), Hillier draws maps of urban landscapes built from mounds of data statistics on wealth in particular neighborhoods, traffic patterns, crime anything that has a location.

Hillier's maps are turning out to be very useful for neighborhood activists such as Duane Perry, who founded an organization in Philadelphia called the Food Trust, dedicated to helping city residents gain access to nutritious, affordable, food.

In many urban neighborhoods, particularly low-income ones, well-stocked grocery stores are hard to find. Perry says grocery stores abandoned these neighborhoods in recent decades in favor of suburban areas, where there was more space for big supermarkets and parking lots.

Hillier computed a map that produced a splotch of red across the face of Philadelphia a broad swath of low-income neighborhoods that lacked places to buy good food. In many of them, people were dying in greater numbers from diet-related diseases.

Duane Perry says when he put that map in front of local leaders, the information hit home in a way he'd never seen before.

Dwight Evans, who chairs the appropriations committee of Pennsylvania state legislature, pushed through a new, $30 million fund that provides subsidies to build supermarkets in neighborhoods that most need them.

"I already knew that there was a problem," Evans says. "The map just made it real. It put a face on it. It was like an exhibit in a courtroom."

More than 20 supermarkets have since opened in Philadelphia and other Pennsylvania cities, with the aid of state funds.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 347
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 12:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nainrouge,

Your arguments don't hold water with me for a simple reason: there are a lot of businesses in the Detroit CBD, so there are plenty of businesspeople checking their prejudices. And independent grocers, let's forget chains for now, tend to be people from the area, not out-of-towners.

So again: why are grocers not choosing to open stores in the Detroit CBD, while other businesses do choose to locate there? (OK, not as many as we might like, but not zero.)

I'm not a CBD dweller, so let me ask y'all who are: is Eastern Market too far away to be a viable food-purchase location, or are the hours wrong, or is the selection not quite adequate, or does the lack of transit make it not quite viable?

Also: since liquor stores obviously don't need subsidies to operate in poor neighborhoods, why do groceries? Poor people need vodka but not fresh meat? I'm having a difficult time grasping such a concept.
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Nainrouge
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Username: Nainrouge

Post Number: 186
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 1:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Before you say that arguments don't hold water you should check your research - "Professor".

"A lot" of businesses? Relative to demand, there are not enough.

Here is just a taste:

389,000 sq.ft. of unmet demand for clothing and clothing accessories; furniture and home furnishings; electronics and appliances; building materials and garden equipment

Eastern market is 1.6 miles away from the CBD.

Why do grocers need subsidies and not liquor stores? Because you provide incentives to stores that you want and not to those that you don't want. We don't give money to strip clubs, head shops, liquor stores or check cashing places - we do want to give money to stores that provide fresh fruits and vegetables. Do you understand the difference?
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Gotdetroit
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Username: Gotdetroit

Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 1:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As to the Eastern Market question, no it's not too far. Complaining about 1.6 miles is crying. But, something in the CBD would be nice. Something walkable.

Also, I happen to agree with the big chain fixation. Sure, having a Best Buy down here isn't going to hurt anyone, but a focus on simpler, local fair wouldn't be a bad idea either. When I say that, I guess I'm speaking to the stretch of Woodward from Grand Circus to Campus Martius. Or say, Grand Circus up Washington. There are a lot of empty storefronts. Those places don't need fancy clothiers, or high end anything, or stuff that is so specialized that 1 in 100 people walking past will find it mildly interesting. I think, for right now, that is the wrong direction. Saying that, I'm also not talking about $1 stores either. Locally owned, impendent coffee shops, or a tavern, or a simple sandwich joint, or pizza shop, or simple, loosely themed specialty grocers would be ideal. Maybe some house wares shop, with a bent towards originally designed stuff. Not high priced, but original, unique, but still useful, functional.

Again, national chains aren't going to hurt anything, or anyone, but in a way, I agree with Nainrouge here. That shouldn't be the focus. Bring in businesses that people can use, one way or the other on a fairly regular basis. As the area grows, and as people see they have, at the very least, access to useful things, there will be turnaround on these locations. Whether they trend towards high end, big end stuff as time goes on, who knows. But at least there is something there.

As an example, when Shields goes in, Im going to find it rather convenient to get a pizza. A simple walk. Not every day, but once or twice a week, sure. Just like I find it convenient to go grab a beer at the Park Bar, or to grab a pack of gum, or simple toiletries at the CVS. Each new store will add something. But if we spend our time sitting around waiting for the day a big box comes down here, and not working on getting the little things here, youre running a self defeating process.
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 204
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 3:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nain, I should have been clearer because I think you have in fact agreed with me. Grocers will open if they can make enough money to overcome their fears and or prejudices, legitimate or not. That is how the market works.
THe incentives that you describe have one intention- make it profitable enough that grocers will WANT to open in the CBD. These incentives will create a false condition of profitability in the hopes that the actual marketplace will in fact change enough in the future that it will retain grocers after the incentives are gone.

the question remains then, what is it about the CBD that makes these incentives neccesary? Is there some hidden cost? Again, local grocers would be best able to answer that.

(Message edited by michigan on May 12, 2007)
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Taj920
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Username: Taj920

Post Number: 213
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 1:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only way the market works is if you have ROOFTOPS. That is the only incentive that matters to retailers. The CBD still lacks adequate density to support a grocery store. And one won't ever open unless it has a sea of free parking.

Until CVS opened, downtown went without a drug store for at least five years.
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Granmontrules
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Username: Granmontrules

Post Number: 71
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 2:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HONEYBEE. One word says it all EXCELLENT! Nothing better even in the burbs.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1207
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Until CVS opened, downtown went without a drug store for at least five years."

Well have to give some props to Rite-Aid/Perry's. They hung in through the worst of times down there before closing. Once Downtown started to come around, they closed their location down there.

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