  E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1186 Registered: 11-2004 |
Looks like years of gentrification is turning Washington DC whiter. The story below says DC will lose its status as a majority-black city by 2020, becoming a metropolis without a clear-cut racial majority, a la New York and Los Angeles. You have to wonder, has such a transformation already started, or even possible, in Detroit? Could we end up seeing the equivalent of Coleman A Young and L Brooks Patterson going after each other from different sides of 8 Mile? D.C. May Be Losing Status As a Majority-Black City By N.C. Aizenman Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, May 17, 2007; Page A01 The District of Columbia's longtime status as a majority-black city appears to be diminishing, even as Maryland and Virginia continue to experience a dramatic rise in their minority populations, according to census estimates released today. The 14 percent increase in non-Hispanic white District residents and 6 percent decrease in blacks from 2000 to 2006 are probably the result of the gentrification of once-affordable city neighborhoods, demographers said. The impact on the city's racial makeup is noticeable. In 2000, blacks made up 60 percent of the District's population. By 2006, that figure was 55 percent. If the trends continue, the city will almost certainly cease to be majority black by 2020, said Robert E. Lang, director of the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech. "It will wind up more like a Los Angeles or a New York, with no clear majority." Nationally, minorities have far higher growth rates than non-Hispanic whites and make up more than a third of the U.S. population. Their numbers topped 100 million in 2006, with Hispanics accounting for 15 percent of the U.S. population, non-Hispanic blacks for 12 percent and Asians for 4 percent. From 2000 to 2006, the number of non-Hispanic black residents in the District declined to 322,000, the number of non-Hispanic whites rose to about 184,000 and the number of Asians increased to 18,000, a 20 percent gain. "What you see are whites moving into the city because they are able to afford the pricey housing in all these areas that are gentrifying and becoming much more middle and upper-middle class," said William H. Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution. "Meanwhile, the city is becoming more unaffordable to lower-income black families." Although the data are too general for definitive conclusions, Frey said it is likely that many black and Hispanic families are moving to Washington suburbs. Ironically, Lang said, many majority-white cities in the country will become more multiracial and multi-ethnic because of the higher rates of growth in their minority populations compared with those of whites. The trend is evident in Maryland: From 2000 to 2006, the state's Hispanic population grew by 48 percent, the Asian population by 28 percent and the non-Hispanic black population by 10 percent. The non-Hispanic white population declined by 1 percent. Similarly, in Virginia, the non-Hispanic white population increased by 4 percent, compared with 46 percent for Hispanics, 36 percent for Asians and 8 percent for non-Hispanic blacks. Because the white populations of both states were so large to begin with, whites remain a sizable majority. And only four states -- Hawaii, New Mexico, California and Texas -- are majority-minority. In theory, Lang said, the entire country could reach that status by 2040. But Lang questions whether the term "minority" will be defined the same way by then. Nearly 2 percent of the population is identified as multiracial, he noted. And that percentage is likely to rise with intermarriage among races and ethnic groups. The notion of what is "white" is also likely to shift as it has since the 1900s, when Southern and Eastern Europeans were not counted as white. "I don't think that officially there will ever be a moment where we're at majority-minority status, because long before you get to that point, the meaning of the term majority will be completely redefined," he said. The U.S. Census Bureau also released statistics on age: Two states, West Virginia and Pennsylvania, had the second-highest percentage of people 65 and older, each with 15 percent. Florida remained No. 1 with 17 percent. www.washingtonpost.com | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1234 Registered: 06-2006 |
yes, I think it's already started, and it's a very positive thing... but I don't understand the comment about Young and Patterson... | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1187 Registered: 11-2004 |
The story talks about how African-American and Latino families are moving to the suburbs. quote: I wonder if the roles would stay the same but the locations would change if Detroit followed this trend? | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1659 Registered: 10-2003 |
Considering that Detroit is about 50 years behind cities like NYC and DC, look for this to finally occur here about 2080. (Message edited by Fury13 on May 17, 2007) | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2006 |
Why would Detroit follow this trend? The dynamics are completely different. DC is extremely expensive and has a strong economy while Detroit is extremely affordable and has a weak economy. Who is being "pushed out" of Detroit? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 789 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Considering that Detroit is about 50 years behind cities like NYC and DC Maybe 30 years behind NYC and 10 years behind DC. I remember visiting a DC 10 years ago that looks nothing like it does when I was there a month ago... | ||
Swiburn Member Username: Swiburn Post Number: 136 Registered: 07-2006 |
The housing situation between Detroit & Washington is so different, i.e. very expensive Revolutionary War houses in Georgetown; a solid, permanent, ever growing employment base with the government; and people willing to pay expensive tuition for top notch private schools in the city. I don't see anything similar in Detroit vs. Washington here. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5874 Registered: 02-2004 |
E_hemingway, Good point, over the past 35 years Washington DC was segregated to the point that black-folks wouldn't even leave Georgetown unless they want to get beat up. By the 1970s DC's black population increased up to near 70% white flight to the suburbs has reduced DC's white population to 15% but now gentrification, rising violent crime, city corruption, scandals from Mayor Bailey and housing opportunities in Maryland's Prince Georges County cause more black folks from DC to migrate over there by the thousands and more white folks are slowing coming back to DC or move someplace else. Today DC white population has increased to over 30% a sure sign that reclaiming their nation's capital and protect their American's treasures from vandals and terrorists and more Hispanics in DC are on the population growth, too sneaking their way into black DC neighborhoods. A simular tread could happen to Detroit, not right now but within 20 to 50 years. With gentrification of DC neighborhoods comes rising property values in which more poor minorities can't afford and " NOUVEAU RICHE" middle class folks can buy. That could be the main reason the lots of DC black folks are heading the Maryland suburbs. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 790 Registered: 04-2006 |
"The housing situation between Detroit & Washington is so different, i.e. very expensive Revolutionary War houses in Georgetown; a solid, permanent, ever growing employment base with the government; and people willing to pay expensive tuition for top notch private schools in the city. I don't see anything similar in Detroit vs. Washington here." Well, for years DC was known as the Murder Capital.... and so was Detroit. So there is your similarity. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 335 Registered: 08-2006 |
Also,the price of homes and townhouses in nice neighborhoods is out of range for most young couples after getting married Since there are so many trashed areas east of the White house, many of those vandalized and vacant townhomes are a good investment. Also, as wealthier people move in, the thugs move out and take much of the crime out of the area. Hope it continues to happen, I remember where thugs were attacking tourists at the monuments so bad last year that they had to post security after getting so many complaints.....Sounds like a good plan to me | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2474 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: ??? Truth be told, housing values here have gone through the roof since 1999. A lot of the groundwork for this was laid over 30 years ago, when the Metro was constructed. Many of the folks "pushed out" bought their houses years ago when they were dirt cheap, and have cashed out with the increase in housing values. For example, on Capitol Hill, you could buy a 2000 sf rowhouse for $150,000 about five or six years ago. The same house now goes for upwards of $600,000. I don't feel too bad for someone who makes those kinds of capital gains that quickly. Houses here are no longer a good investment. Single family homes in Anacostia now start at $200,000, and the median home price in the city is $429,000. You can't possibly expect to cover your mortgage payment with the rent you would collect. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 813 Registered: 11-2003 |
There has been a slow but steady gentrification of many DC neighborhoods for the last 30 years. This followed a 1950's-1970's suburbanization and white flight scenario common to most Eastern U.S. cities. The recent DC experience illuminates the incredibly strong demand for an urban living experience among middle and upper middle class Americans. The strength of this demand occurs despite the condition of the DC public schools. With the exception of a handful of elementary schools in the upper NW part of the city, achievement levels in DC public schools fall in the bottom quartile nationally. There are not a lot of private school options with tuitions less than $15,000 annually. In most cities, gentrification on a small scale can be driven by childless households. Bad schools usually kind of caps the demand among households with children. But in DC, a very massive gentrification is being driven almost totally by childless households. It seems kind of unique to me. But, then again, the DC economy, dominated as it is by government and affiliated white collar industries, is unique. (Message edited by swingline on May 17, 2007) | ||
Queensfinest Member Username: Queensfinest Post Number: 105 Registered: 08-2006 |
Before we can begin to compare what's going on in Detroit to what's happened in cities like DC, NYC, and Chi, over the last few decades, the economy of the State of Michigan and southeastern MI will need to improve dramatically. A few areas near Downtown Detroit are currently undergoing gentrification surrounded by vast areas of decay in a stagnant or still declining economy. This situation in Detroit does not begin to compare with the housing markets in DC and NYC. In DC and NYC, former city residents are being displaced and moving to the suburbs mostly because they're being priced-out of the actual cities. The economies are thriving, the populations are increasing in these cities and in their Metro Areas. The price of everything, especially housing, has appreciated. These cities are what we call world cities, with diversified, adapting economies. The companies and educational institutions based in these places compete to attract the top minds in the world. Sadly, the above description does not apply to Detroit. Perhaps it never really has. Until Detroit satisfies the above description, and many other factors come together, I would not begin to discuss Detroit in comparison to a place like DC. Does anyone have any numbers that show the White population in Detroit increasing? If I had to guess, I would say Blacks and Whites are still leaving the city at an alarming rate, while perhaps the Hispanic population has grown somewhat? Am I close here? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2476 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Nationally, only about 25% of all households have school-age children. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7478 Registered: 09-2005 |
As Detroit African Americans continue to accelerate the extermination of their own population via the black holocaust (58% of all AA pregnancies aborted) and much higher than average murder rate, while whites venture downtown to new, more secure places like the revamped Book Cadillac, the possibility of such a changeover could happen more quickly than anyone anticipates. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 531 Registered: 10-2003 |
"As Detroit African Americans continue to accelerate the extermination of their own population via the black holocaust (58% of all AA pregnancies aborted) and much higher than average murder rate..." That's pretty depressing. Any way to lift up Detroit short of genocide? | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 299 Registered: 12-2003 |
Without a subway/efficient mass transit Detroit will never see the housing appreciation DC or NYC has enjoyed. Part of what lures young adults to Chinatown/Logan/Prospect Park/Harlem is the critical mass of other young single/educated professionals. I'd venture that the majority of residents in the "gentrifying" neighborhoods of Chinatown/USt/Logan/Penn Quarter or Hamilton Heights/Williamsburg don't have children so the focus isn't on schools. It's on quality of life, low crime and all the city has to offer at your fingerprints, sans having to drive to get there. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7484 Registered: 09-2005 |
English, if you can figure that one out and how to get elected mayor at the same time, Detroit may well rise out of the ashes. Bill Cosby has the answer for Detroit, but Detroit isn't yet ready to listen. Good luck. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 235 Registered: 04-2007 |
this has been an interesting thread, keep it up | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 533 Registered: 10-2003 |
"English, if you can figure that one out and how to get elected mayor at the same time, Detroit may well rise out of the ashes. Bill Cosby has the answer for Detroit, but Detroit isn't yet ready to listen." Honestly, I blame hip-hop and black Generation Xers (my generation). Gen-X's nihilism and "Whatever" attitude just isn't a good look for black folks. But hip-hop is on the way out. Soon, it'll be the music and culture of the old folks. Everything cycles back around, I think... soon, it'll be cool to go to school, graduate, hold down a job, take care of home, marry, have children, and live productive lives. The only worry I have is that by the time black Detroit comes around, it'll be too late. Lord knows there aren't enough jobs for everyone in the region already... what happens when the large percentage of city residents who have dropped out of the workforce drop back in, so to speak? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 793 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Belleislerunner Also, what seems to get lost on your point about mass transit is the synergy and vibrancy that is lost as a result of being chained to your cars for everything. That is what is really attractive about places like NYC, SF, etc. There are very few places in s/e Michigan that can offer that type of environment. The city proper is one of the very few places in the region that is even designed to offer that. It's only missing the key component of an efficient transit system. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2479 Registered: 10-2003 |
^Well, that and half the land doesn't have to be parking lots just to accommodate the building occupants on the other half of the land. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7486 Registered: 09-2005 |
Uh, the "lack of mass transit" is not what's causing Detroit's problems. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 815 Registered: 11-2003 |
English, may your comments be taken at face value, or are you humoring the tsk-tsking white folks who are critical of perceived missteps being taken by the black community? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2480 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Well, when about a third of your workforce can't get to a job, I'd say that's a problem. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 794 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Uh, the "lack of mass transit" is not what's causing Detroit's problems. Are we talking about what's wrong with Detroit or the African American community? Either way, you've been way off the target in your diagnosis. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 241 Registered: 04-2007 |
Saying that the lack of mass transit is the problem with Detroit is putting the cart before the horse. Detroit used to have mass transit, did it not? It didn't stop nor stem the cities decline. The city has lots and lots of problems. Lack of mass transit is WAY down on the line of what needs to be fixed there. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7492 Registered: 09-2005 |
Michigan, I must respectfully disagree. From "Field of Dreams" - "Only if you build mass transit to the ballpark, people will come." | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 243 Registered: 04-2007 |
yes, but will those people live inside or outside the city of Detroit, Grasshopper | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 304 Registered: 11-2006 |
I was thinking of starting this thread about 5:00 a.m., but wondered if it would generate 1). little interest and 2). be considered another DC post even though the urban theory principles are relevant in some degree to Detroit. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 206 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Well, when about a third of your workforce can't get to a job, I'd say that's a problem." That is of course assuming that the 1/3 you mention is willing and able to work. | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 300 Registered: 12-2003 |
Karl is right. Mass transit needs to be in place for the people/jobs to come. Without a subway the city would be nothing more than skyscrapers w/ attached parking garages. What then is the difference between having your office building in Troy or on W. Grand in terms of creating urban density. You're never going to leave it or venture more than one or two blocks away. Subways allow people to live in one section of town, commute to another, eat lunch in a third - all within an hours time. This spurs economic development at each Metro stop in turn providing jobs for the residents thereof. Even the trickle down effect is rewarding. Most subways have free newspapers for riders (e.g. Express or AM New York). Thousands of kids ride the subway to school every day and while many may not read the papers - thousands do. Think of the positive impact on the reading comprehension, world view and general awareness. The children become exposed to successful people in the print and one day can achieve to be like them. They see businesspeople on the train in suits/ties/laptops heading to work who become role models for the young to emulate. How many urban youth in Detroit have the opportunity to read a newspaper on the way to school each morning and be exposed to thousand of "working adults" aka positive role models that reinforce the value of an education? That's why you tend to see cities with subways having a "higher educated" workforce. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 795 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Detroit used to have mass transit, did it not? It didn't stop nor stem the cities decline. Seems to me that the decline of the city actually coincides with the dismantling of the transit system and the implementation of the urban renewal projects (freeways). | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1189 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: A lot more will live inside than you think. The market for big city urban living options, i.e. lofts and high-rise condos, has been drastically under served in Michigan for a long time. The people demanding it have been here for a while too, at least until they move the NYCs, Chicagos or San Frans of America. This explains why the loft and condo projects in city centers, especially in Detroit, are the only bright spots in Metro Detroit's dismal real-estate market. Imagine the demand if the economy weren't hurting so much right now? And the school district isn't as key as most people would think, although it's still important. People who prefer this lifestyle stereotypically don't have kids. If they have already raised their families or don't plan on having one, the schools don't matter as much. Remember families with school-age children only make up 25 percent of the families in America. If they do plan on raising a family later on why not buy, or rent, a place for a few years in a city center and then sell it for the suburban home when they're ready to have kids? Mass transit is essential to creating a dense, vibrant city center. Creating a rail-based mass transit system, say along the Woodward corridor, is one of the best things Detroit can do to encourage gentrification. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 246 Registered: 04-2007 |
interesting ideas from all. but i am not yet comvinced | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2482 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Of what are you not convinced? | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 248 Registered: 04-2007 |
that building a large mass transit system is a prerequisite to reviving Detroit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2483 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ask yourself this: how much density (or "critical mass") can you hope to achieve if two-thirds of the land downtown must be dedicated to automobile usage? | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 249 Registered: 04-2007 |
I understand. But LA does it. San Diego does it. Atlanta does it. Miami does it. New orleans did it. I am not saying it is a bad idea or that it should never happen. But given limited resources I think other factors should be addressed first. | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 301 Registered: 12-2003 |
LA has an efficient subway. I've taken it from LAX to Downtown to Burbank. Miami also has an subway that runs throughout downtown (a la People Mover) and an extended route that goes past Key Biscane/Corral Gables. Atlanta has the Marta system. Have you ridden any of the mass transit in any of these cities or do you just assume because it's not NYC, DC or Chicago it doesn't have a subway? | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 537 Registered: 05-2005 |
Make no mistake, CarHeads were not only instrumental in killing Detroit, they have been instrumental in keeping it down. They successfully shut down and dismantled a great street rail system and have successfully kept out all transit in the region for more than 50 years. They are truly evil. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2484 Registered: 10-2003 |
San Diego has the Trolley, that opened in 1981, paving the way for cities like Baltimore, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Houston, and Phoenix, to build light rail. Even Los Angeles is making attempts to densify its downtown, although if you ask me, most of the LAs and Atlantas of the world are barely urban. Most of these cities, though, were built around the car. Detroit was wholesale gutted and retrofitted to accommodate cars. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7496 Registered: 09-2005 |
"CarHeads were not only instrumental in killing Detroit, they have been instrumental in keeping it down....They are truly evil" I can assure you that when folks around the world think about/look at Detroit and consider whether to visit/live there, public transit is, um, around #17 on the list. This, after twice in our nation's history, Detroit was the wealthiest city on the planet. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 251 Registered: 04-2007 |
You are joking about the trolley being a major mass transit system in San Diego, aren't you? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2485 Registered: 10-2003 |
Is the San Diego Trolley a major system? Well, it does carry over 107,000 people per day (4th largest light rail system in U.S.). That's more than the much-ballyhooed Portland MAX. Karl, perhaps you care to explain the significance of the surface parking lot in downtown Detroit, if transit is #17 on your list. Or why young people aren't exactly flocking to Phoenix, Detroit, Kansas City, and other transit-poor cities. Perhaps it's because they don't want to live in places that consist mostly of parking??? If you must know, I personally made a deliberate decision to relocate to a city that had good public transit, just so I wouldn't have to drive everywhere. There are many others in my generation who think similarly. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 538 Registered: 05-2005 |
Karl - Public transit itself may be down the list, but proper public transit sets important groundwork for other things that make a city vital and attractive - it leads to higher living densities that spur things like walkable streets and active storefronts - two critical things in making your city an attractive place to be and visit. | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 302 Registered: 12-2003 |
Think about SE Michigan. When you have friends come to visit do you tend to take them to Ann Arbor, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Downtown, Mt Clemens or Pontiac or do you take them to hang out in Sterling Heights, Warren, Lincoln Park or Livonia? What's the difference between the first set and the second. While not embracing mass transit, the first set all have a critical mass/density associated with make it an attractive place to visit. One can walk from an art gallery, to a coffee shop, to dinner to an ice cream store without having to drive. That's hard to do on Big Beaver or Hall Rd. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4132 Registered: 10-2003 |
No Karl is right, it's becuase of all the boogey men that live in the city and i hope English is just not really trying to entertain Karl (granted alot of what she says may be true but it is more so a symptom and not the cause). Word of advice English, you know his mindset don't encourage him... (Message edited by Detroit_stylin on May 17, 2007) | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 186 Registered: 03-2007 |
Greater downtown Detroit is taking baby steps this trend. Brush park-midtown -once single family victorian homes and apartment mid and high-rises and ALL WHITE, Sat abandonded for decades, Now being converted to multiple unit condos. New condo units filling empty spots from I-75 east to I-94, All this plus re-developed storefronts along Woodward, formal grand ballrooms turning into lofts, thriving restaurants, art museums, and a growing college campus and medical campus. Corktown: white people are returning, pouring tons of dollars in cute, brightly colored cookie cutter victorian homes, prices are through the roof. Woodbridge: Housing projects are falling down, making room for Woodbridge estates. single family houses in the $200,000 range. The hood is being outpriced. Mexican town: Mexican population glowing like wild. retail and international welcome center. more brand new single family homes then anywhere else. Laffeyette park: A stable downtown adjacent neighborhood, slowly growing north toward gratiot. Riverfront East: Breaking ground on over $160 million worth of high end condos and a state park. CBD. BOOk Cadillac--67 CONDOS,$300,000 TO 1.4 MILLION, plus moe condos atop 10 story parking structure. Pick Fort Shelby-- 73 not cheap apts, plus 375 hotel rooms. 1001 Woodward-- entire high rise converting to condos. Roger Penski is the new freakin head white man in charge along wit Olympia entertainment owner. Sound like we are headed to a whiter city as these trends continue. Black folks dont wanna pay the high price to heat these houses, plus they seem fed up with feeling neglected for the new frontier moving into downtown. Blacks are moving down south and sterling heights, canton, warren, dearborn, Bloomfield, Royal oak, Farmington, troy. while the white population in Detroit is acually growing | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7498 Registered: 09-2005 |
And how many murders did "boogey men" commit in the COD last year - and so far this year? Murders are indeed a symptom. The cause comes from the homes of Detroit. Not the schools. Not the streets. Not the churches. Not the mayor, or city council. But the homes. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2486 Registered: 10-2003 |
Murder can happen anywhere. What's your point? | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4135 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Let's see so many omisions and distortions of real world facts, so little time... According to Karls twisted logic (yet again), then that means that even I am a murder and a criminal since I came up in a single parent home, became a Graduate of DPS, and spent every day of my life in the City of Detroit... Now that being said then why have I not murdered anybody yet? Hmmmmmm...could it be that Karl does not see individual Black men and Women...all he sees are Black Folks that all engage in groupthink! But dammit I keep forgetting that crimes like murder and others do not happen north of 8 mile nor west of Telegraph... What was I thinking? Let me show the products of two gentlemen who came up in a two parent home, in a very exclusive suburb and see how they turned out. Did this begin "in the homes of Detroit"? Or is it still a ghetto thing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E ric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold (Message edited by Detroit_stylin on May 17, 2007) | ||
Mbr Member Username: Mbr Post Number: 150 Registered: 03-2005 |
Detroit_Stylin, unfortunately your previous post is ridiculous and doesn't come close to responding to Karl. He's not indicting all detroiters, nor is he saying crime only happens in Detroit. And your genius idea to throw in the Columbine murderers helps your point how? | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4138 Registered: 10-2003 |
MBR if you dont know the history please censor yourself.... | ||
Mbr Member Username: Mbr Post Number: 151 Registered: 03-2005 |
I'm not defending Karl, he's ridiculous as well, you should just do a better job of responding to his argument and bringing up the Columbine tragedy as somehow helping your point is absurd. Let's get back to the real issues of this thread. Does anyone know what year the CoD became a majority black city? | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 187 Registered: 03-2007 |
the real point here is we must look at the trends,, the greater downtown area is rapidly turning young, white, and finacially stable. So how does that compair to wat happened to D.C 15 YEARS AGO? | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4141 Registered: 10-2003 |
No MBR the point I made with that is that Karl always talks abut how growing up in a single parent home will always result in a criminal/murderer/robber growing up... So I cancel his bullshit with the fact that these two peons grew up relatively well off with BOTH parents in the home and killed a dozen people in one shot !(no pun intended). If it all starts in the home with two parents since Detroit has a high percentage of single parent homes then what happened there? THAT was my point | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 7506 Registered: 09-2005 |
".... Karl always talks abut how growing up in a single parent home will always result....." Not true. It all starts in the home - good and/or bad. Single parents & 2-parent homes have all turned out good and bad. Detroit has both a high % of single parent homes and African American homes. accompanying a high crime rate. Bill Cosby addresses those issues well. Odd how certain Detroiters are reactionary to the messenger - regardless of race - if there is any suggestion of upsetting the status quo. Sometimes it seems that the only "solution" certain Detroiters see as viable is "outside money" | ||
Queensfinest Member Username: Queensfinest Post Number: 106 Registered: 08-2006 |
Downtown_remix said "...the white population in Detroit is actually growing" Can you or anyone else here provide the statistics? Is this just something you feel might be happening? Please provide a link. Thanks. | ||
Queensfinest Member Username: Queensfinest Post Number: 107 Registered: 08-2006 |
By the way, by "growing" population, I assume you mean an increase in numbers, for the white population. Seems like after the trends over the last 50 years or so, an increase in Detroit's white population would be big news. Haven't seen anything on this so far so it's intriguing. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 138 Registered: 03-2007 |
Can someone "HONESTLY" tell me who consumes the drugs that fuel the wars that raise the crime rates that drive the negative sentiments about my city. PLEASE | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5517 Registered: 10-2003 |
Haven't read through this except the first post, but Detroit is not getting more 'white'. In fact, the 2005 American Community Survey show it slowly getting more 'black' up to 85% or so, and that a measurable amount of those classfied as 'white' are actually Middle Easterners and hispanics. Detroit is slowly gaining back its 'foreign born' population, though. So, no, the demographics aren't trending towards Detroit losing its black majority, or becoming more 'white', for decades barring some major back to the city movement by whites. The movement back downtown seems to have many people fooled. It's a tiny trickle, and its not an all-white movement, either. (Message edited by lmichigan on May 17, 2007) | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 542 Registered: 03-2006 |
according to DetroitRising.com's neighborhood profiles Corktown is one of the only communities with a noticable white population and a non-black majority (of the 50% white population 25% is latino). http://detroitrising.com/corkt own.htm from what I can tell according to this website the only neighborhoods with a sizable non-latino white population are Indian village at around 32%, East Riverfront (25%), and more nominal %s of ~20 at Midtown, Woodbridge, Downtown I dont know how accurate those statistics are (Message edited by apbest on May 17, 2007) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5519 Registered: 10-2003 |
A quick look-up on American FactFinder finds that there are only 9 Census tracts in the entire city where non-hispanic whites makes up a majority, including in the far southwest (2 tracts), far northeast bordering the pointes (3 tracts), New Center (1 tract), and the far west in the Warrendale area (3 tracts). They make up 30 to 45% of the population in a few areas around those areas mentioned. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 247 Registered: 09-2006 |
I dont think the City of Detroit will lose its status as a majority black city. Pockets of Downtown and Midtown are certainly becoming more evenly balanced between races, which is interesting because most people in my neighborhood for example ( Lafayette Park) want that, many who have moved here from the burbs recently see the color balance as a major plus, I agree. Diversity is a major asset in the life experience. Downtown,Midtown and its neighborhoods I feel will be a very well blended area by 2010 at the latest. I do not believe the city neighborhoods will follow the same trend however. Until the Public school system becomes stable and respected you will not see white families moving in and black families are leaving for the same good reason, they want their kids to have a good education. Now there are certainly some very good teachers and a few well respected schools in the DPS but the overall system is not perceived in that manner at all. The neighborhood safety issue is another big problem. Downtown however, while not perfect by any means, seems to hold its own fairly well lately on that count. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 796 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'm just speculating, but I would guess that Detroit is bleeding lower class white residents faster than it is gaining upperclass white residents, which is why the stats say the city is getting blacker? If the development boom is successful, this will change quickly, IMO. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5877 Registered: 02-2004 |
Detroitbill You quoted that I dont think the City of Detroit will lose its status as a majority black city. YES IT WILL! Give it about 50 years and Detroit will turn itself from a majority black city to a ethnically diverse cool cities like Seattle, Virgina Beach and Austin with more lofts and condos and higher property rates. Iheartthed, You quoted that I'm just speculating, but I would guess that Detroit is bleeding lower class white residents faster than it is gaining upperclass white residents, which is why the stats say the city is getting blacker? I say that the city is already been blacker since 1975 and its going to continue to blacker until after 2050 when mosty middle class black families continue to follow the white folks to the suburbs or any other U.S. cities. Then the po'blacks will follow them, too. Once they tried to come back to Detroit to stay. It's going to be hard to find a house, condo or apts. for the property values are too high. The same effect is happening right now in Washington DC. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 191 Registered: 03-2007 |
In 2009, we would have added: 500 new condos in CBD, Book, Griswold, 1001 Woodward, Pick Fort $300,000-1.4 million 800 Riverfront East condos, $300.000-1 million 150 new residents in Brush Park 200 new residents to Woodbridge estates 11 350 new residents on Woodward cooridor(midtown) the majority of the new residents moving to the greater downtown area is young, white, indian, middle eastern, asian and black. mid to high income, hightly educated individuals. They will have world class hotels and entertainment venues at there disposal. this also includes great restaurants and bars all in walking distance. By 2009 we would have added many restaurants, clubs, and bars. More small businesses will fill in the gaps throught downtown to meet the needs of area residents; furniture stores, convienent stores, pet suppliy stores and coffee shops. This in itself will change the fabric of the greater downtown population. You say the white population is the city of detroit is not increasing, but guess what? The very small percentage of white people in Detroit is not decreasing. They live in corktown, Woodbridge, Indian village, Boston edison, riverfront and other neighborhoods that are on a rebound. they ain't leaving these areas and when these 100's of high-end condos and lofts officially open, this population will increase in numbers. Black middle class is still moving out, looking for "new housing",jobs and Walmarts in far off suburbs; canton, Sterling Heights, Brownstown, Royal Oak, Clinton township, Farmington Hills, Taylor. Creative artsy fartsy types with multy colored hair and tight bell bottoms from the 70's are finding lofts and condos around greater downtown. This had to have happened in other cities that have currently rebounded some 15, 20 years ago. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5880 Registered: 02-2004 |
Great comment Downtown_remix, All of those requirements for a better cool Detroit takes ethnic people power and not by one majority race alone. Detroit is developing and the rest of the Coleman Young generation have to join Archer/King Kwame's bandwagon or be lost in the shadows. Coleman Young's legacy is long gone so don't wait for his return. Get over it and move on with your lives. We Detroiters don't need to be in his stronghold or anybody else. Break away from the racial bickering and race cards and lets make Detroit an ambassador to the world. (Message edited by danny on May 18, 2007) | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 193 Registered: 03-2007 |
Oh your the famous Danny. They say on the forum that we must be related, i guess because we know the difference between Detroit 1990 and Detroit 2009. I couldnt have said it better myself | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5522 Registered: 10-2003 |
Who doesn't know the differences between the Detroit of the 1990s and today? I suspect most of us are old enough, so you two don't have a monopoly on that. The small percentage of whites is getting smaller, again, if you take the time to look at the Census and 2005 American Community survey. The 'white' population went from 12.3% in 2000 to 11.1% in 2005. This shows that whites are still moving away faster than blacks. The white population loss has slowed greatly for the sole fact that there isn't much left, but please do try looking at the numbers. The other interesting phenomenon is that Detroit's foreign born population (the lowest of any of the top 15 or so major cities, I believe) is finally starting to creep back up, and the hispanic and Asian populations are also starting to inch back up. There are A LOT of interesting demographic dynamics happening in the city, at the current time, but none that will yield anything near a majority, or even plurarlity, of whites for the forseeable future, at least, not with the development that is occurring, now. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5887 Registered: 02-2004 |
Yes Lmichigan, But what white folks are leaving Detroit? The older families or the younger families? Mostly the older white families that been around since the 1930s are moving out but the younger white empty nesters are quickly moving in. The percentage of whites in Detroit is decreasing but not very quickly. It would rebound about 25 to 50 years. White folks must have a key role in Detroit's business or they could LOSE the reputation or their image. They are the ones who founded, settle and developed Detroit before black-folks, Mexicans, Arabs and East Indians come and make it topsy turby, upsy daisy and around about inside out. So Detroit needs people power, soul power and love power and not black power, white power, Arab power, Mexican power, racial power or hate power. It's action NOT TALK and its needs solutions and empty promises. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5526 Registered: 10-2003 |
That's what I'm saying, though. In fact, you went and repeated some of what I said (i.e. the white population still decreasing but much more slowly). Barring some huge change (and one could happen) it will be 25 years or more, that we'll even have to ask ourselves the question demographic question about Detroit. I know you make nothing but moral judgements about demographic changes (i.e. it being 'good' or 'bad'). I'm not, at the moment; I'm simply following the numbers. I tend to agree with your judgement (Detroit needs more people that care about it, period), but you don't need to try and talk over me like I'm disagreeing with you. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 195 Registered: 03-2007 |
As soon as word gets out that D E T R O I T is a hot, safe and strikingly beautiful place to live, as soon as our Book Cadillac, Fort Shelby, and a built from scratch riverfront housing and shopping district graces the covers of city living magazines, and featured on episodes of HGTV, as soon as the North End along with the other 6 neighborhoods getting fixed up and those amazing homes around Boston/Edison gets fill-in housing and nice retail, the perception of living in Detroit, (specifically 12-15 neighborhoods throughout the city) will change very rapidly. We are literally in the planning stage of the city changing hands. As the diversity of races left the city some 40 years ago, they declared they would once return and reclaim a city once known to be the most beautiful city in America. The white population thats still leaving the city have been here through the "war" that changed our fabric from a melting pot to a separatist region. There fed up, dont see any progress and will never return, but the population of different races moving in the city are from a passionate group of generation NEXTers. They weren't here through the "war". 2012 will be a huge time for the city. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5890 Registered: 02-2004 |
Lmichigan, If you believe that every last white-folks are moving out of Detroit until their population reaches 0% you have to be kidding. Older white families from the European immigrant era are almost long gone. But the younger white empty nesters are slowly coming back to Detroit to live somewhere in Downtown and midtown areas. The white population of Detroit will rebound by 2050 just the white population of Washington DC. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 196 Registered: 03-2007 |
the population of different races in my apartment building (Trolley plaza), Kales, Woodward lofts, Merchant row, and various Harmony park lofts greektown lofts,capital park lofts has already made the shift. Middle Eastern couples, white girls, college jocks, trendy blacks, gay people are lookin for high-rise and loft living, art, entertainment and colleges. When more high end living spaces start to mix in with our existing crop of downtown housing, a breakthrough will begin | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 856 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Indeed, Detroit used to have a very good mass transit system, and the elimination of that transit system perfectly correlates with the decline of the city: 1890- Detroit has a population of 205,876 1892- The first electric streetcars in Detroit begin running. 1900- Detroit has a population of 285,704 1910- Detroit has a population of 465,766 1920- Detroit has a population of 993,678 1930- Detroit has a population of 1,568,662 1940- Detroit has a population of 1,623,452 1950- Detroit has a population of 1,849,568 1956- Streetcar service in Detroit is completely shut down. 1960- Detroit has a population of 1,670,144 1970- Detroit has a population of 1,511,482 | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5529 Registered: 10-2003 |
Danny, you do nothing but twists words. I never once implied that the white population would totally disappear. The only thing I've said time and time, again, that you can't seem to get through your head (possibly a learning disability for all I know, if nothing something more than that) is that all things considered, and barring some dynamic change (which could happen), that Detroit doesn't even have to ask itself about losing a black majority and then plurality for at least another decade or two. (Message edited by lmichigan on May 20, 2007) | ||
Eastsidedame Member Username: Eastsidedame Post Number: 140 Registered: 12-2006 |
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel offended by the term "non-Hispanic whites"? Why are pidgeon-holers denying Caucasians their cultural heritage? Shouldn't the terms be "Caucasians of (European or Middle Eastern) descent"? And what about, say, Mexicans of Spanish heritage (a.k.a. Criollos)? What are they called? Is the US going to a government-sanctioned caste system, now? Well, let's not discriminate; let's pidgeon-hole everybody. How about "non-African blacks" or "non-Asian Filipinos"? It's just getting much too crazy. Does anyone else feel likewise? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5530 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hispanic is a purely cultural term to recognize a sizeable and growing semi-cohesive minority group. It makes sense to me. Eventually, it will be changed just like all racial and ethnic categories have, over time. Until then, it makes sense to me. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 305 Registered: 11-2006 |
I tried to surf through a lot of these posts and have a comment or two. Re: Whites. When one disaggregates population change in Detroit a single demographic, race, is too narrow to accurately portray what is happening. As many posts here and other threads indicate, to speak of "ALL" whites is to miss the truth. One probably should speak of population age groups, e.g. 19 - 24, 25 - 29,... 65-74, etc. etc. I suspect there will be increases in the white population in CERTAIN age groups (e.g., 19 - 24, 25 - 29, and maybe a few more). There will be population decreases for certain other age groups. Of course, we won't know that for certain until 2011 or 2012 when detailed 2010 Census data is available. For those patient enough to wait, there could be some fascinating data for census tracks in say 2012. That will really show what is happening along the river front, CBD, Brush Park, around WSU, Corktown, etc. as Downtown Remix indicates. I suspect census tracks for those areas will show big population gains, increase in household income, higher educational attainment, etc. As noted, this 'back to the city' phenomenon is real and is happening in many cities such as D.C. and Detroit. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 283 Registered: 04-2007 |
erikd- Those statistics illustrate an interesting correlation. Now, we need to demonstrate the causality, if any. Is there any research that discusses the relationship? I think WSU or EMU or someone must have done some analysis of this and proposed a causal relationship for this. It seems like the type of thing an urban planner would love to research and explain. If you find anything please share it. Again, that was good data, thanks. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 306 Registered: 11-2006 |
I want to make a comment about Erikd's data which he presents. My guess is that closing the streetcar system in '56 (I had an uncle who drove one and retired from it) is probably a spurious correlation to the decline in Detroit's population. My guess is that 'white flight' was happening and that the streetcar closing just happened at the same point in time. As suburbanization and 'white flight' was happening all over the country I'd guess the population shift would have happened anyway. Hell, I could make a spurious correlation between the Iraqi war and sharp rises in stock valuations as the two happened at the same point in time. (Message edited by emu_steve on May 20, 2007) | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 286 Registered: 04-2007 |
My gut reaction is to agree with you Emu_s. There is often a correlation with no causality. That is why it would be interesting to see if any research has been done to demonstrate that there is or is not a causal relationship here. Perhaps a relationship has been demonstrated. Or, Perhaps there was a tremendous decline in street car use that drove the city to cease the service. Perhaps it was done to preserve neighborhood segregation. I don't know. But someone must have researched this. I know that when St. Louis began building their light rail system, it was intended to loop and link the entire metro area with the airport. Staunch resistance from the wealthy white neighborhoods that did not want the "element" that might arrive on that light rail system have effectively killed that system. It now runs airport to down town and back. A financial disaster and service failure. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 308 Registered: 11-2006 |
I agree with you Michigan. D.C.'s subway system had several interesting aspects which relate to your points. There were 'issues' as a few areas (e.g., College Park) didn't want the subway fearing that crime would follow it. Georgetown didn't want all the increased folks overwhelming the neighborhood. The 2nd is that the subway makes it possible for suburnanites to work in the city (as intended) and also makes it possible for those in the city to take the subway to the 'burbs where the jobs are. Many of these service workers do not have cars to get to their suburban jobs and there are few jobs in their neighborhoods. | ||
Paintnprint Member Username: Paintnprint Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2007 |
Good Lord, I lived in Motown for the first seventeen years of my life, so I'm checkingin/out. I'm glad the passion for the city is still here, the civil tone, and the amazing facts brought to my attention. I like to hang out with smart, passionate people. Regards, Koko | ||
Bertz Member Username: Bertz Post Number: 551 Registered: 11-2003 |
Excuse the thread jack, but where is Rasputin? In the past he would have defiantly put his two cents in on this one. I don’t follow the forum like I used to so please excuse me if has already been explained in past threads. |
