  Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2719 Registered: 11-2003 |
Like father, like son. I wonder where he'll want to stick the first one and how to resolve the problem of motorists paying twice for the same thing? | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1387 Registered: 12-2004 |
Would you please provide a summary of the bill, so I don't have to trudge through those minutes? Thanks, 1953 | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 239 Registered: 11-2003 |
It's an amendment to the state's transportation bill to establish toll lanes. quote: I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 960 Registered: 07-2004 |
The underlying point is undeniable: Fuel taxes, highway funds, federal disbursements and municipal budgets can't pay for all the maintenance on all the roads. The bill will be coming due within the next 20 years. Maybe a nice first step would be getting rid of the 100-ton trucks that rip up our roads for us. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 85 Registered: 02-2007 |
I would prefer tolls on 94 from washtenaw through to the IN border to deter non-Michigan trucking from using it to avoid the border toll-road in OH and IN | ||
Beadgrl Member Username: Beadgrl Post Number: 140 Registered: 07-2006 |
Is this Coleman Young Jr aka Joel Loving? | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1462 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dumb. Set up tolls in congested urban areas? Is this like the London "no car zones"? What? They think Detroit or Grand Rapids have downtowns that are too congested and we should tax cars to enter? Or is this just sorta a HOV/toll lane idea added to freeways? Even that is absolutely stupid. More taxes is not the freakin answer. Just gonna put Michigan further in the hole compared with other states. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 859 Registered: 04-2006 |
Detroit may not be "congested" but it does have an unusually large number of trucks that pass through it for other destinations. The city and state benefit little to none from this... whereas other states have these things called toll roads. Maybe they could set the stage to implement toll roads with minimal fees on cars (like 25 cent?) and heavy fees for trucks? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 677 Registered: 01-2005 |
Anyone who is thinking of advocating toll roads should drive around Chicago first. Fifteen mile backups were common before they put in "Open Tolling" (at a cost of hundreds of millions of $$$'s) which requires people to buy a transponder (an "I-Pass") in order to avoid the booths. The tolls by using an I-Pass are 1/2 that of paying by cash at a booth. I have an I-Pass but my guess is that since Open Road Tolling went into effect revenues have decreased significantly because a large number of people just breeze along w/o an I-Pass. IL claims it takes a picture of every license plate and if you don't pay you're subject to a fine. However, w/ hundreds of thousands of cars going through the tol areas each day there's no way they can enforce the no-pay violation. I've talked to many folks ov er there and no one has ever heard of a violation enforcement action. I've forgotten to use my I-Pass a dozen times and have never been notified of a violation. Just another dumb idea from a hack politicion. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2547 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes, Michigan does everything correctly, which is why there isn't enough money to maintain--let alone expand--the state's infrastructure. Keep starving the state, and watch the people who actually give a crap continue to leave. It's *everyone else* who is wrong, isn't it? All I know is that if an extremely fiscally conservative state like Virginia is going to be tolling roads, you're an idiot to advocate otherwise. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 678 Registered: 01-2005 |
Am I surprised at your comments, Didc? Hell no. Not too long ago I was building condos in Manassas, VA. During the daily rush hours (6 till 10 and about 3 till 7) traffic between Manassas and D.C. was bumper-to-bumper, a 2 hour 35 mile commute each way. And the folks didn't think it was a big deal. Virginians may be fiscally conservative, but that doesn't mean they are not idiots. It's not "everyone else" that disagrees w/ your harebrained opinions who is wrong. It's you and anyone who commutes four hours a day in order to work in Washington, 30 to 35 miles away. (Virginia prohibits radar detectors as well, not that anyone can ever go fast enough that they'd be beneficial.) | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 967 Registered: 07-2004 |
3rdworld: I think the point is "induced demand." When you make something free, you are persuading people to use it. When they use it, it becomes congested. In the United States, the typical answer to congestion has been: All these cars need more space. Let's carve out more space and give it to them, free of charge. This induces more demand, which then creates more congestion. It's an endless loop. In Europe, typically, planners have said, we have too many cars here. Is there something we can do to migrate people to other, less resource-intensive, space-intensive ways of travel? And so they have car-free zones, trains, trams, attractive places to walk and bike, etc. | ||
Cliff19336 Member Username: Cliff19336 Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2007 |
WHile you may argue its a dumb idea the fact of the matter is, Michigan is losing its shirt to states that have toll roads. Toll roads generate lots of local matching dollars enabling the State to tap lots of Federal dollars. Its one of the key reasons roads in Ohio are better than here in Michigan; they can tap more Federal dollars. Right now, the State of Michigan is so strapped to match the tons of Federal dollars it has that it has to issue bonds (more debt) to be able to use the Federal money. Its a never ending spiral and the state needs a new source of income fast. That is why there is talk of the gas tax increase too. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1012 Registered: 02-2006 |
Detroitnerd, the fallacy is called the tragedy of the commons. Conservatives vehemently oppose toll roads, because they feel that the roads are for the people to use, for free, and the market should regulate demand, blah blah blah. Yet these same people will scream against public transit funding, insisting that riders should pay their own way. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2838 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm a conservative. I believe people should pay for what they use. I'm not a motorist but the cut out of my income that the state/feds takes goes to highways I don't use. Of course this is true to some extent for us all. You may use I-94 in Detroit but will never use I-96 in Western Michigan. But, the point is, some people like me get no return. You should pay for what you use. So I like the idea of a toll road. I think 94 west of 275 and 75 north of 8-mile should be toll roads. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 970 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thanks, Focus. I just took an interesting detour to the appropriate Wiki site. "That which is common to all gets the least care." | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 399 Registered: 12-2006 |
I'm from Noo Yawk originally. We have one long toll road, the Thruway from the PA line to NYC, and some shorter ones, plus many free express highways. The Thruway tolls pay for the maintenance of the Thruway, and it is always in excellent shape. The rest of the expressways are paid for out of the same kind of funding we use in MI, but it is a great help to have one long freeway taken off that budget. I have never got the feeling people stayed away from NY because of the toll road. It is a ticket toll system, so it does not create the Chicago style congestion. Commuters can choose to buy a pass, pay the toll, or take parallel local roads and avoid it. I have long felt it would be a useful concept in Michigan, but there are two concerns: First, it is a difficult sell politically to people who are unused to it. Second, I do not believe the Federal Highway Act allows a state to take a federally funded road which had heretofore been a freeway and convert it to a tollway. New toll roads are just that: new. | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2005 |
HB 4826 is not intended to allow general conversion of freeways to the kind of toll roads they have around Chicago. Although the bill doesn't really say so, it seems to enable the kind of toll express lanes now in use on I-394 west of Minneapolis and SR-91 in Orange County, California. On these roads, what used to be underutilized carpool lanes were opened up to any user willing to pay a toll. Tolls are collected electronically, and there are no toll booths. The toll rates are controlled by automated devices that detect traffic volume in the toll lanes, and the toll rises to ensure that travel in the toll lanes never slows down. In this way, speedy travel is always available to anyone, at a price. Or to buses, so that commuter bus schedules can be predictable and fast. The Minnesota and California express lanes have been very popular with users. On the Minneapolis road, tolls vary from $0.25 for a 11-mile trip up to a maximum of $8.00. During the afternoon peak hour, the toll typically hits a maximum of $2.75 or so for a brief period. Surveys of users disclose that typical commuters use the free lanes about 3 days a week, and pay to use the uncongested lanes 2 days a week. The beauty of this system is that the tolls are set by the users at what the time saving is worth to them, and the toll falls to close to nothing when not needed. This scheme does not generate more money for highway finance, but is intended only to keep traffic moving. For some reason, the Young bill allows free use of the toll lanes by cars with more than one person aboard, but there seems to be no need for that. Carpools automatically have at least two people to spread the cost of the toll to, so the toll provides a natural incentive to form carpools to buy their way into the fast lanes. This is a sound idea that deserves to be tried in Detroit. How much would you pay to travel at 70 m.p.h. on I-75 or I-94 or US-23 any time of the day? Would you commute to work on a bus that never gets stuck in traffic? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 679 Registered: 01-2005 |
If toll roads are put in the Detroit Metro area, 1000's of driver will shift to surface streets rather than pay a toll. If so, the expressways will be less congested but surface streets will be very overburdened. The traffic burden will be shifted from one group of drivers to another. I frequently use surface streets from downtown to Bloomfield anyway, for all or part of the way. It's frequently faster than the expressways. It would be interesting to determine if Chicago's toll road scheme will ever generate enough money to pay for the system. My guess is that it will not. Just how many more taxes/fees/use charges do you think MI residents will tolerate? How many more delays (construiction/toll booths etc) will people tolerate? The area is becoming more expensive and less tolerable yearly. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 242 Registered: 11-2003 |
While I certainly agree with your sentiment, Dan, there are huge disadvantages for Michigan (especially MDOT) to currently adopt tolling on their road system. A good portion of MDOT's roads that meet the proposed criteria of being congested are interstates. (I'm operating under the assumption that a toll facility would be limited access). Instituting a toll facility on an interstate would require the state to payback any interstate funding paid out over the years. So, the only facilities that would meet the proposed requirements would be US and M routes--essentially the US-23, M-14, the Lodge (M-10) and Southfield (M-39) Freeways in the Detroit areas. It is a huge disadvantage that Michigan has a highly distributed formula for distributing our state gas tax (over 600 agencies). I'm not saying that Michigan will never have toll facilities--just that this legislation won't be the tipping point. Cliff, your reasoning isn't quite true. The feds have special requirements for toll facilities to receive federal funds. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/progra madmin/tollfac.cfm | ||
Awfavre Member Username: Awfavre Post Number: 122 Registered: 08-2005 |
I’d be happy to have toll roads if the state would guarantee the quality of the toll roads. The ones I’ve driven on in Indiana & Ohio were excellent. Somehow, however, I doubt this would happen. I think Detroitnerd is on the money – the extra-heavy trucks allowed on Michigan roads are what seem to cause the greatest damage. If you drive on roads in the U.P. & other areas where there is little to no heavy trucking, the roads seem to be in veritably pristine condition. I presume this allowance was done to accommodate the “Big Three” & their manufacturing abilities. Given the current state of things, how badly do the “Big Three” need this allowance anymore? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 400 Registered: 12-2006 |
If the Young bill allows free use by cars with more than one occupant, then any automated tolling system can't work. In addition to the other myriad issues already discussed. 3rdworld, you are oversimplifying a bit. Drivers will do what is in their best interest. In upstate New York, local drivers avoid the Thruway but if traffic on the parallel roads gets heavy they jump onto it. Each driver makes his own decision on the spot, and on the whole the thing works pretty well. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 971 Registered: 07-2004 |
Not to belittle anybody's frustration. Time tough. But, just for laughs, I have an alternative theory on why people leave the state. Perhaps the people who leave are well-adjusted people who don't mind paying taxes to get services or paying more money to get more quality. I'll bet most of them are going to places where taxes are higher, prices dearer, and opportunities more plentiful. What is this theory based on? The incessant, podium-pounding outrage I hear about taxes and the cost of living often makes me feel that only the people who haven't left Michigan are the ones complaining about taxes and prices. We should call them PeSTPoTS: People still too poor to split. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 680 Registered: 01-2005 |
My guess is that poor people don't/won't have the luxury of jumping on and off the surface streets as congestion my dictate. I don't know what area of upstate NY you (Professorscott) refer to, but even if Buffalo is included, there aren't any metropolitan areas such as SE MI in upstate NY so I'm not sure the comparison is valid. I do agree that drivers will do what's in their own best interests, money permitting. My views are colored by my experiences w/ toll roads, primarily but not exclusivly in the Chicago area. Open road tolling has reduced the backups somewhat (at, I'm sure, a significant reduction in revenue as a result of cheating, but the backups are still intolerable in many areas where a large segment of drivers do not have I-Passes. Anyone else have any experiences driving the Chi area toll roads? | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1013 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yes, I live in Chicago. Open road tolling is a god-send. The only plaza I use that has "intolerable" backups, is the plaza entering the Kennedy inbound at the 90/190/294 interchange. This is only because it is torn up and very much under construction, and 3 freeways are meeting here, all of which need to either merge, or pay the toll. The delay is only in the cash lanes...the IPASS lanes are slow due to mergers and confused motorists, but once that ends, it picks up again and you can pick up about a 1/2 mile on the cash payers. Others can be annoying, but even during rush hour, backups rarely reach even 1 mile, because all frequent travelers have I-PASS. It's been around plenty long enough for regular travelers to have them. Plus, it hasn't been mentioned yet, I-PASS tolls are half the cash price. Now, how this worked is about 3-4 years ago, they kept I-PASS tolls the same and doubled cash tolls, but I digress. I like it, because the toll roads, by and large are in the outer burbs. Being a city resident that works in the city, I RARELY use them, though I got an I-PASS just for the convenience. This way, hey, I don't pay for them because I don't use them! | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2548 Registered: 10-2003 |
Virginia is about to convert portions of I-95 and the Capital Beltway, as well as all of I-395, to High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes. Cars with 3 or more passengers, and buses, during rush hour would still be free. Evolve or die. | ||
Arc312 Member Username: Arc312 Post Number: 39 Registered: 01-2006 |
The only way toll roads would pay off (specifically the ones you pay to use, as opposed to the HOV lanes that the act suggests in part) is to make sure that some other entity does not build roads that bypass the ones that one pays for AND provide people with car alternatives in tandem. If the goal of this is to increase revenue/promote auto-alternatives/increase density then It might be a good idea to toll highways that are in busy suburban locales as a way to curb/revert growth. As home and lot sizes are reaching the top of the curve and are ready to come down, people will realize that the city and inner ring suburbs have all the infrastructure and with investment can become as attractive as the green and leafy as the exurbs are. Don't forget that the inner-ring suburbs were once the promised land, and still have the potential to be. | ||
Arc312 Member Username: Arc312 Post Number: 40 Registered: 01-2006 |
also, of you read the bottom of the proposal, it defines toll roads as if not only would one have to pay, but in order to even use it one would have to have 2 people in the auto. am I reading this correctly? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2721 Registered: 11-2003 |
I get a laugh after hearing comments about these "100-ton trucks" tooling about on the local roads. Being a local driver, I have one question for those repeatedly reporting these sightings: Where the hell are you driving, in a gravel quarry?!?! Aside from lumbering around in a hole in the ground, those trucks won't even fit on the road, to say nothing about the bridges they'd take out on any expressway around town. So much for that argument. I am also amused at those people who feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong for people to pay two, three, four times for the same thing. Just like the schenagins in Lansing over the recent budget debacle, the problem here isn't a lack of money per se (of course, it would be nice to get back $1.00 in every $1.00 in fuel taxes that the feds suck away from us every year), but how and where the money is spent. OABTW Beadgrl, the answer to your question is yes. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 974 Registered: 07-2004 |
OK, I have no idea the actual weight of those trucks. 100-ton truck is like saying 800-pound gorilla to me. They're big, heavy trucks. You know. Two trailer, heavy-duty, ribbed steel trucks. If other states won't let them ruin their roads, why should we? I see them all the time, banging along the road, freeway, etc. I guess I wonder where you DON'T see them, as I see them daily driving around Detroit, unless I'm just seeing things. As for paying once, twice, etc., that's not a very persuasive argument. It SOUNDS good, though. Who wants to pay twice for the same thing? But a better question is: What do we get for our money? How many times must we rip up our roads and lay them down again? How many times must we constantly expand our roads, draw more use to them, invite heavy trucks to rip them up, and then do it all over again within a few years? To me, that's paying for the same thing over and over again, except the payments get bigger each time. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2552 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And more reasonable still: How much does it cost to maintain the road network, and how does that compare to the dollar amount of fuel taxes collected? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2729 Registered: 11-2003 |
Believe it or not, trucking is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country (including vehicle weights). I should be aware of large trucks driving around town because I'm one of them. And a better question to ask here: Just who's paying attention to how our roads are built? I-75 was rebuilt just south of the Rouge several years ago. It had to be fixed several months after is was completed. Ditto for I-696 around the same time. M-14 was shut down for nearly a year for a major rebuilt. Now they're fixing was was supposedly just "fixed/rebuilt" only months ago. So to say that we're getting our money's worth...sorry, that dog won't hunt. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 689 Registered: 01-2005 |
Right on, Mcp001, re: quality of road construction. As I've said before, I think the concrete they use is made primarily of corn meal mush and Crazy Glue. Toronto as the same weather as we do and higher traffic volumes, including trucks, and there are far fewer road construction projects than in MI based on my frequent trips there.) On a Sat morning I was on I-94 a month ago at 6 AM heading for Metro for an early flight and traffic was stopped at Telegraph. DOT was tearing up 5 miles of pavement all the way to Metro and traffic was reduced to 1 lane. I was in a big 4 WD and simply went down the ditch, up the other side to the WB Telegraph access lane and on the shoulder most of the rest of the way. I barely made my flight and I sure 100's didn't. The point is that the roadway they were replacing was less than 2 years old, having been built right before the Super Bowl. This is one disgraceful State. | ||
Sticks Member Username: Sticks Post Number: 321 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote: Their gross vehicle weight is supposed to be limited to 80,000 pounds (40 tons) but trucks run over that limit sometimes. Why do you think they care about the chicken coups? And in case anyone was wondering about the affect of trucks on our roads, take a drive on I-75, between Detroit and Toledo. Coming back north you'll notice that the right two lanes are torn to shit while the hammer lane isn't half as bad. Gee, wonder why that is.. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2730 Registered: 11-2003 |
Those that do, do so at their own peril. There's a scale house on I-75 near exit 8 or 9. Telegraph Road has one about the same distance from the Ohio border. I've also been told that DOT runs in the area with portable scales, so don't think that you can get "creative" by taking 223 or 50 to get around them. And if you don't feel like getting a permit for anything overweight, overheight or oversized, get ready to cough up some $$$ to the good people mentioned above. And again, why is it always the "big" trucks that get the blame for the condition of the roads? Just how do you think that everything that you depend on got into your possession in the first place? Here's a hint, they didn't run a stretch of RR track nor did they dig a big ditch so a boat can sail up the Detroit River to your front door. During some point in its delivery, a truck brought it. Now, why aren't people asking the right questions like why aren't our roads being built correctly for the vehicles that regularly travel on them in the first place? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 992 Registered: 07-2004 |
Why don't people arrive at your "right" questions? Perhaps it's because of Occam's Razor. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 410 Registered: 12-2006 |
Elaborate, 'nerd; not everyone is familiar of the wonderful philosophy of Sir William of Ockham. I am, but I'm not sure what the "simplest explanation" is at this point of that conversation. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 993 Registered: 07-2004 |
The right two lanes of the road are ripped up. Trucks drive most on the right two lanes. Explanation 1: The trucking industry is overregulated, and vital to receiving goods in a timely manner. Explanation 2: It is the poor quality of concrete that leads to the destruction of our roads. Explanation 3: Heavy trucks are ripping up our roads. Please select the simplest (and according to Occam, likeliest to be true) of these, admittedly few, explanations. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 411 Registered: 12-2006 |
Ah, but heavy trucks use the right lanes in every state, yet our roads are ripped up more than most. (Even more than most other northern states, to eliminate that side argument). So I have two choices, and I'm not sure which the razor prefers: 1. Michigan allows heavier trucks than other states, which do more damage; 2. Michigan builds roads more cheaply or maintains them less well than other states. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 994 Registered: 07-2004 |
Yeah, that's the idea. Now, is that INduction or DEduction? (Can never remember which is which!) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 412 Registered: 12-2006 |
That's deduction. Induction is almost entirely a mathematics thing. Induction is where you have a list, finite or not, that can be put in some order {thing1, thing2, thing3, ...} and you demonstrate: 1. Some fact is true about thing1 2. If that fact is true about thing(k), it must be true about thing(k+1) Therefore it's true for all things in the list. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 995 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thanks, Professorscott! | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 306 Registered: 11-2006 |
Everyone realized that this doesn't make the entire highway a toll road right? Thats what I got anyway, it just makes one or two lanes toll for people with more than one passenger (carpoolers) and busses so they are on time. This is a good thing and could be a great tool for proving to the federal government that metro Detroit is ready for the task of putting together a transit system that doesn't blow. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 413 Registered: 12-2006 |
6nois, Where exists the technology to (a) detect the number of people in a vehicle and (b) then charge a toll? I haven't seen such a beast anywhere, myself. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2743 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'll go with choice #2, Professorscott. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 962 Registered: 09-2006 |
Is there any evidence that would suggest that tolling roads in these areas could possibly slow down the advancement of exurban sprawl? Or promote transit development? If so, then lets get to tolling. And I don't see how this is a stupid idea from CYJr. (Message edited by mayor_sekou on June 04, 2007) | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2744 Registered: 11-2003 |
Double taxation for the same item. |
