Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Dr. Jack - Welcome Back Previous Next
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Helpwanted
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Username: Helpwanted

Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 8:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so glad Dr. Kevorkian is out of prison. He looks good considering his health problems. I wish him peace and well being for the rest of his days.

Welcome Back Jack !!!
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Helpwanted
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Username: Helpwanted

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 9:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i am sorry, i should have posted this on the non-detroit board. i will try to be more careful next time.
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Club_boss
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Username: Club_boss

Post Number: 118
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 9:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dr. Kervorkian to be Released

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/103328.html?1181005774


Saw him the other night on CNN.

He was on the Today Show this morning.
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Smogboy
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Username: Smogboy

Post Number: 5350
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 9:30 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've actually had lunch with the man several times when he had his office in Royal Oak. Nicest man in the world.

I always admired his views (not that I always agreed with his methodology) and his determination to bring it to a logical discussion. I still think that Geoffrey Fieger turned Jack Kevorkian's ideal into more of a media circus than intelligent discussion.
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Eric_w
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Username: Eric_w

Post Number: 221
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 9:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad he's out-he should not have done what he did that got him convicted but I 100% support the right of people to end their lives on their terms in cases of terminal illness.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 9455
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doctors should cure, not kill.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and if there is no cure?
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Wally
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Username: Wally

Post Number: 274
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

and if there is no cure?


Then you die a slow painful agonizing death while the doctors do everything they can to prolong your slow and painful death with the authority that God apparently gave them over us.

(Message edited by wally on June 05, 2007)
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 9456
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 12:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Then that is the life you have. There is a lot of medications today to numb the pain (if there is any)and prolong life. Not everyone who wants to die will have a "slow and painful death" as Wally points out.
I guess some jews and gypsies might need to be put to death as well...remember how the holocaust started?
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Themax
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Username: Themax

Post Number: 684
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 12:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a lot of people cashing in on the dying: the drug industry, hospices, hospitals. And they all profit from people living as long as possible in comas. When hospice people are on television talking about all the ways to control pain, they all boil down to coma with a big final price tag.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 9459
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 12:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would rather a doctor work his entire life to try and improve or save someone's life than work his entire life to make sure someone can be killed "humanely".

Themax...universal healthcare : )

Now that we have chimed in withour POV's I will let others discuss this if they want to as I cannot change my mind on this matter. Believe me I tried. When my Father was dying of cancer in our living room, I would still rather him there than have him hooked up to a machine that would have killed him. Two months+ is better than not seeing him at all in that time.
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 1003
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 1:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would you feel the same, Goat, if YOU were sitting in a hospital bed with a terminal illness? You might call that "life" now, but you might feel differently if it was you.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 321
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 1:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goat that may not be the right path for you, but do you respect the rights of others to make that decision for ones self. I feel this is a very personal thing, like setting up your will. Each person deserves the right to choose, and if that is what they choose who are we to say they may not end their life to end the pain and suffering.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 9460
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 2:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now we want death clinics? We should ask the babies that were murdered in Northen Europe (Sweden perhaps?) if assisted suicide is the proper way to go. Many of the infants killed had mild problems (could have lived near normal lives) but were "disposed" of anyway.
As I stated, medicine is to find a cure not find ways to kill. If the person wants to die then they should either do it themselves if they are able to and if they can't then they should make sure that their family knows what they want and do not give them the medication to keep them living.

Burnsie, read my post post above yours. That is pretty close to being the one dying. At 17 years of age it is the hardest thing to watch your parent(s) die.
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Cheddar_bob
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Username: Cheddar_bob

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that Kevorkian supplied the means to end people's lives and they threw the switch themselves. If you are anti-suicide that is fine, but isn't telling someone they can't do it imposing your morals on them?
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 9461
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 2:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cheddar_bob, that stance can be made about every choice we make in society. Do you not agree that people have to make a choice that is best for the majority?
If an adult wants to have sex with a 14 year old girl and she thinks it is o.k. is that fine?
If a heroin addict needs to shoot up should we give him/her the junk to do it?
If a person doesn't see a garbage binshould they then be allowed to throw the trash on the ground?

It would be endless...sometimes stances need to be taken and I believe this is one of them.
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Cheddar_bob
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Username: Cheddar_bob

Post Number: 1024
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 3:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is denying the person the means for a dignified death at a time of their choosing best for the majority? I don't think it has anything to do with the majority and everything to do with a personal choice. Someone's choice to die has nothing to do with anybody outside them and their family let alone the "majority".

1. You cannot compare having sex with a minor to right to die, it's apples and oranges. Let alone it affects 2 people and it is not the choice of one person and one person alone.

2. We should not provided a junkie with the stuff, but if he wants to get high on his own so be it.

3. Throwing trash on the ground affects everyone that has to see it. Suicide only affects the person dying (and to some extent his family).

If I want to die, you can't stop me and you certainly can't charge me with a crime after the fact. You can only prosecute the person that helped enable the act which is basically telling him "I don't believe in what you did and you shouldn't either. Therefore you should be punished".
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Eric_w
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Username: Eric_w

Post Number: 224
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 6:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To Goat
What I want is the right again THE RIGHT to live on my own terms and end my suffering if and when I want to. Not have my destiny decided by some doctor or someone outside my control.
If you or others want to prolong the lives as long as you want to fine I support your CHOICE 100%. If I don't want to fine but to the I want my choice supported too.
I strongly believe my life belongs to ME not the society,the government or any religious body. If I was terminally ill and my end was near with no hope of recovery-I want the option to go out peacefully and in control not linger on & on & on, hooked up with tubes & catheters or a morphine drip to keep my pain in check.
By the way-your analogy to the holocaust and killing babies is just plain silly. We are not talking about that.We're talking about a narrow issue concerning consenting adults making THEIR decision. Dr. Jack NEVER EVER killed any infant, or took anyone's life without their consent. Since he helped 130+ people don't you find it odd not one family member or friend of anyone he helped has any issue or complaint? Or are they in you opinion murderers too????
An elderly uncle of mine died of a self inflicted gunshot some time ago. He was ill with a number of medical problems that one by one weren't fatal but together were killing him. In my last conversation with him his greatest worry was losing his dignity and control over his life and lingering on to a slow painful death which WAS going to happen. Tell us all here how his sneaking out to his back yard on a cold night in October, putting a .38 to his temple and ending it is what he should've had to do so people like you can have the say so on their lives. Another uncle of mine found his body & it haunts him a great deal to this day. He surely did not want to end up in nursing home for months waiting to die while going blind and having his heart go on him-which was happening to him. I'd bet though he would have much rather prefered being at home telling his wife good bye, pulling a lever and drifting into a quiet sleep going quietly & peacefully.
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Kevgoblu
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Username: Kevgoblu

Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 6:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"When my Father was dying of cancer in our living room, I would still rather him there than have him hooked up to a machine that would have killed him. Two months+ is better than not seeing him at all in that time"

While I sympathize with the pain you were experiencing while your father was dying, I must question who you were looking out for. Often it is our own selfishness of not wanting to lose a loved one that overpowers our compassion for the person who is suffering. What if your father would have preferred not to be hooked to a machine to maintain his life?
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 9463
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 7:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He was asked and he said he wanted to die naturally.

If you people want the right to die then I don't believe that governments and especially doctors should be helping with that cause. There are many ways to die especially when someone is in the last throes of life. Choose one.

The reason I brought up the myraid of choices is because where do we draw the line?
Those babies who could have lived decent lives never had the chance because soem hospitals killed them because their parents did not want to bring them up with their minor conditions that they were born with. Euthanasia was supposed to be just for those who would not have a chance of living for much longer. Yet, many hospitals killed innocent babies anyway.

I will always believe that doctors should help a patient live not die. If someone wants to die such as Eric_w's uncle then he has the means and can do so with his own hand or that of a relative.
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Themax
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Username: Themax

Post Number: 686
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 7:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

" We should ask the babies that were murdered in Northen Europe (Sweden perhaps?) if assisted suicide is the proper way to go. Many of the infants killed had mild problems (could have lived near normal lives) but were "disposed" of anyway."
Goat, what does this have to do with assisted suicide that deals with people who are diagnosed with terminal diseases and who want to have some control over their deaths?

"If someone wants to die such as Eric_w's uncle then he has the means and can do so with his own hand or that of a relative."
Without assisted suicide laws, that relative would be put on trial for murder. I don't know anyone who would want that for a relative. People don't always have the means especially if their disease is paralyzing them. That's why the Oregon law is hardly used. You have to be able to swallow and keep down the prescription. Other people don't want to leave a big bloody mess for loved ones or have them witness their death throes. Most people's deaths are not dignified. And there 's not much dignity in being hooked up to a lot of ventilators and coma-inducing drugs.
Kevorkian's machine was a good idea. As long as you could push the button, others' involvement was minimal.
"What if your father would have preferred not to be hooked to a machine to maintain his life?"
That is the real question. What does the patient want? Not what does some church want. Not what do some medical people want.
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Eric_w
Member
Username: Eric_w

Post Number: 225
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 9:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Themax
Excellent points.
The night this happened it was chaotic. First my uncle was reported missing in the early evening and police were called to his home-the search went on for several hours around his home and neighborhood. It was not until the next morning about 7am he was found.He crawled under a pine tree behind his house. It's a rural area, pretty dark at night and he was concealed by the skirt of the tree.To me not a great way to go. My aunt was panic stricken the entire night worrying about him-then had to face the fact he killed himself.
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Concon
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Username: Concon

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 4:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All,

For me, the BIGGEST FACTOR is that M.D.'s are complying with the wishes of either the individual or their families to put people to death daily, as happened with my mother.

Dr. Kervorkian reiterated this well-known fact so that so much of the previous discussion is almost moot.

Either with or without the help of M.D.'s, most can choose to live or to die.

Recommend Jack Lessenberry's column in MetroDetroit Times that Kervorkian is a pioneer:

http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=10583
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 4:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If there is pain, treat the pain, if the treatment hastens the end, so be it. Treatment is directed towards quality of life as it's sole purpose. This is the philosophy of hospice and it works very well. Jack has it backwards, he is prescribing and administering death, not treatment. From what I understand his personal view of life in general is very bleak such that life is mostly suffering and when the suffering becomes overwhelming the treatment is death. He has a twisted view and approach, IMO.
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Unclefrank
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Username: Unclefrank

Post Number: 62
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 9:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now the Lions can have the right team doctor!

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