  Caldogven Member Username: Caldogven Post Number: 52 Registered: 05-2006 |
Were all of the floors and offices in that building used solely for railroad related business's? | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1506 Registered: 01-2004 |
Several top floors were never used | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5598 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not sure, but it was never fully filled, and the top two floors, or so, weren't even fully finished. | ||
Waz Member Username: Waz Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2006 |
Form Arcadia Book's Images of America Series, I reprise these notes from "Detroit's Michigan Central Station" by Kelli B. Kavanaugh (kbkav): “…early depot employees believed that the railroad company proclaimed the tower to be office space when they actually planned its future use as a hotel” “(the MCS was)…constructed with 13 floors of office space, five of which were never wholly completed” “The Auditor of Expenditures Department occupied the entire eighth floor…” | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5599 Registered: 10-2003 |
Cool, thanks, Waz. Though, if even you don't count the bottom floors (train station), the tower is 15 stories in height. (Message edited by lmichigan on June 05, 2007) | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 293 Registered: 06-2005 |
Did the Train station have a copper roof? I remember seeing guys up there in the late 80's early 90's stripping something. My best friend lived right behind it on 18th. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1008 Registered: 11-2003 |
At least part of the waiting room and concourse roofs may be copper. The tower roof definitely never was (though it may have had copper vents or flashing). | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 420 Registered: 04-2006 |
there was copper over the waiting room. all gone now. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1011 Registered: 11-2003 |
It's really all gone? Last I checked it was at least mostly there-- really dirty, but there. What does it look like now? | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 421 Registered: 04-2006 |
i was referring to the drop ceiling area. haven't been there recently. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1012 Registered: 11-2003 |
The waiting room's ceiling was of Gustavino tile, not copper. There wasn't a drop ceiling in it. There was a drop ceiling in the restaurant, but the ceiling above it wasn't copper either. Maybe there was copper in the concourse ceiling? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5606 Registered: 10-2003 |
They were talking the roof being copper, not a copper ceiling. At least, that's how I took it since it makes more sense. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1013 Registered: 11-2003 |
I know that, Lmichigan-- see what I wrote about six posts above. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rare color pics confirm a roof of copper over the main hall. It is gone and what we are seeing now is the rusted steel understructure, which appears not be weatherproof without its copper sheathing. The ceiling below is made up of domes of thin tile hung from a network of steel supports, so I suppose it could be described as a drop ceiling. A friend of mine and I climbed up into the "attic", the space over the tiles. They really are thin and the whole structure flexed as we moved about. Unsure of that being the original design or the effects of age we didn't stay up there for long. We did steal glimpses through the hole of at the center of the eastern-most dome where the chandelier hung from- simply wow! I heard from an ex-station master that worked in the building during the '70s that the top floor was used for storage of correspondence between the management of the station and the Vanderbilt family who owned the railroad early in the century. You know- paper, envelopes and letters, etc. He said he would sit up there on his breaks and read some of it. Eventually all the contents got moved to a railroad museum somewhere on the west side of the state just after the building was closed. As for other areas of copper the concourse's skylights were framed in copper as seen from below, when the scrappers took that all the frosted glass that was up there came down within a few years. If you visited the station in the early '90s you were walking on a layer several inches thick of the fallen glass in that area. That all got swept up by frontloaders when the then owner was pitching the building to casino developers during the big casino hype back then. That's when the wild-ass trees growing in front of the building were cut down. In my opinion, though I dislike casinos generally, that would have been the only and most proper modern-day use for that structure (considering our non-existant public rail network, for which the MCS could have been the hub!) | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 535 Registered: 03-2005 |
Contrary to that oft-reportedd modern Detroit urban legend, all the floors of the Michigan Central Depot were used. The upper floors which through which you can see light from the other side of the building were open bull pens (desks on row after row) for various billing, accounting, engineering, traffic and other New York Central subsidiary Michigan Central Railroad departments. The lower floors had not only Michigan Central offices, but those of other railroads and freight forwarding companies such as Southern Pacific, Fruit Growers Express and many others. Opened officially in 1914, MC Depot was designed by the consortium of Warren & Wetmore of New York City and Reed & Stem of St. Paul. These architects a few years earlier had designed New York City's Grand Central Terminal ("Grand Central Station" is the Post Office within GCT and the name of a popular radio show in the 1940's). The MC was merged the NYC in 1930, but the name Michigan Central continued in popular use long after that. In 1969 the NYC and the Pennsylvania Railroad, the two largest U.S. railroads, merged to form the Penn Central Transportation Company. P-C went bankrupt about 1970. It was resurrected in 1976 as the government corporation Consolidated Rail Corporation better known as Conrail. Through economies in reduction of the work force and elmination of unprofitable lines, Conrail became a profitable private company within about 10 years. It was merged into and divided between CSX Tansportation and the Norfolk Southern in the late 1990's. Conrail still exists in three places in the U.S. as a shared asset of CSX and N-S. Detroit is one of these places and the other two are in New Jersey. Bob Cosgrove | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5614 Registered: 10-2003 |
Bob, pictures show the interior of the top few floors not to have been finished, regardless of whether they were used or not. Was the interior later deconstructed? I'm not talking about scrapping, I mean they look as if they were never finished. (Message edited by lmichigan on June 07, 2007) | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 536 Registered: 03-2005 |
One of the floors did not have desks, but was used for record storage. All the others were used. Bob Cosgrove | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5615 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm not talking about not having been furnished, I mean unfinished walls, floors, ect.. | ||
Krawlspace Member Username: Krawlspace Post Number: 315 Registered: 04-2004 |
The top two floors were not finished. The interior walls consisted of 1 ft. x 1 ft. blocks of hollow brick and gypsum. There were light fixtures and service elevator service to both floors. Phone line banks and water service were also run to these floors via pipe chases in the central support columns. There were no rest rooms or related fixtures on these floors. I saw no evidence of waste lines for these fixtures either, only supply. The rest rooms on the office floors were located on the outside sections of the tower on the east and west sides, however I saw no evidence of walls separating these areas on the top two floors, as I had on lower floors. Access to the east elevator penthouse was via a block enclosed stairwell on the top floor, near where the outside "T" section meet the central, narrower portion of the upper office floors. The west penthouse was accessible from the main stairwell. On the 3rd floor from the top, the stairwell was enclosed with fence and a locked gate. The lower floors, as Bob mentioned, consisted of offices off a central corridor lined 6 feet up with marble panels. The upper floors were open, with some areas having had frame walls added over the years for various configurations. The interior walls, however, were finished with plaster, and the windows were framed out, unlike the top two floors, with the exposed block and window casings. My research indicated that the top floors were not finished due to the need to quickly relocate offices from the old station, which burned in 1913. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1524 Registered: 01-2004 |
"I suppose it could be described as a drop ceiling" By definition, no - it is vaulted. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5616 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks, Krawl. For a minute I was second-guessing, myself. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 331 Registered: 04-2004 |
Ventura, I don't understand: "The ceiling below is made up of domes of thin tile hung from a network of steel supports, so I suppose it could be described as a drop ceiling. A friend of mine and I climbed up into the "attic", the space over the tiles. They really are thin and the whole structure flexed as we moved about. Unsure of that being the original design or the effects of age we didn't stay up there for long. We did steal glimpses through the hole of at the center of the eastern-most dome where the chandelier hung from- simply wow!" I have no clue what you are talking about anything flexing. The domes are made of reinforced concrete, terra-cotta block, with a tiled underside. They are nearly 2 feet thick, and supported by massive steel trusses How can they flex? If anything was flexing you were walking above the suspended plaster ceiling above the side storage rooms. Solid reinforced concrete and block: - link removed - (Message edited by wolverine on June 07, 2007) | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 332 Registered: 04-2004 |
Bad link ^ http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.g ne?id=30523473&context=set-507 036&size=l Fixed | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1535 Registered: 01-2005 |
Wow...that photo is amazing! | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1016 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob Cosgrove-- The MC actually wasn't legally merged out of existence until 1995, when it (with no or almost no physical assets at that point) was merged into American Premier Underwriters, PC's successor company. The NYC formally *leased* the MC in 1930, but had a controlling interest for many years before that. See http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bc s_corp/dt_corp.asp?id_nbr=1048 55&name_entity=MICHIGAN%20CENT RAL%20RAILROAD%20CO. | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 537 Registered: 03-2005 |
Whether it was a lease or merger, beginning in 1930 the "MCRR" in small 3-inch or so highletters disappeared from the upper cab-ends of the steam tenders and everywhee else began to disappear on timetables, sigage, letterhead, forms, etc. Are you sure it was the MCRR whose corporate existence ended in 1995? That's some 65 years after the MC operations were merged into the NYC, 34 years after Penn Central, and 7 years - 1988 -after the station had it last tenant, Amtrak. Conrail had pulled out long before that. Could it have been the "Old Road" - the originally the Erie & Kalamazoo and much later the NYC's Lake & Michigan Southern. This was Michigan's first operating running from Toledo to Adrian, which opened in 1836-7. Part of its mainline alignment survives today as the Adrian & Blissfield and on the west side of Toledo. Another myth is that this was the "First Railroad West of the Alleghenies," which it wasn't despite what the State of Michgian Historic Marker in Adrian says. The Marker would have been correct if it had said the "First Railroad in the Old Northwest Territory." This error has been perpetuated since the 1880's. As a corporate entity the E&K survived the NYC, P-C, and Conrail. A possible reason for the MCRR's corporate existence until 1995, if it existed that long, is the ownership of real estate. For example, the reorganized Penn Central Transportation Corporation still exists under another corporte name, I forget which, and owns the hotels next to Grand Central Terminal in New York City. Bob Cosgrove | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1019 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes, it was the MC RR which was merged out of existence in 1995. See the link I provided, which has images of documents from several decades. Through the New York Central and Penn Central years, it was the MC that still legally owned the tracks and property. After the conveyance of much stuff to Conrail, MC (still doing business as Penn Central) presumably only owned abandoned rights of way, which were gradually liquidated. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hey Wolverine, Trust me, they flexed. I'm not talking swinging around wildly but there was movement. And seeing how well built it was while still flexing like that is what gave us the warning to get off! Considering the water damage it has taken it is not surprising and we were on it over ten years ago, it's gotta be worse now if its an effect of water damage. It's still possible they were designed with some flex, maybe an architect could chime in here. If you were up there to get the photo you might have climbed over the domes yourself. We only climbed up the eastern-most dome so I don't know if each one was the same. As I remember there was graffiti at the ladder going up warning of the tenuous state of the domes with one tagger even suggesting you were risking your life. Obviously these guys weren't structural engineers but we are all familiar with gravity! I don't know if a single person on that dome would have noted the flex; it may have been because there was two of us and you notice the flex caused by the other's movements where you wouldn't feel it caused by yourself. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1024 Registered: 11-2003 |
I first thought that "dome" isn't the correct term for these ceilings and that only "vault" could be used, but the "Illustrated Dictionary of Historic Architecture" allows for it: dome 1. A curved roof structure spanning an area; often hemispherical in shape. 2. A vault substantially hemispherical in shape, but sometimes slightly pointed or bulbous; a ceiling of similar form. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 333 Registered: 04-2004 |
Well Ventura, if that's what you experienced, I guess I can't argue with that. I was focusing more on your comment that they are "very thin" which is certainly not the case. The domes are 4 times thicker than the pavement in parking structures! I do know that some of the terra cotta block is coming loose, but I don't think there is any major structural failure in any parts of the domes at the moment. The points at the top are almost 2 feet thick, which I would assume it would be thicker near the base. At one point, a massive steel angle and gusset plate becomes imbedded within the mass, which tells me that these are hardly thin, otherwise we would see the exposed steel below. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 133 Registered: 12-2003 |
I guess I mean thin in relation to what I may have expected. It was still marvelous engineering for its time. Just more proof that the people directly responsible for the building's downfall did the people of Detroit; former, present and future, a huge dis-service. Any of you railroad buffs know when the building changed hands from the railroad (was it NYC or Conrail?) to a non-railroad private party? I know that it was first offered for sale in the mid sixties but there were no takers. When did it finally get sold, to whom, from whom and for how much? I don't think Amtrak ever owned it, did they lease it from Conrail or some other private party? | ||
Caquail Member Username: Caquail Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2003 |
To be really technical the station was owned from the time of construction until 1985 by the Detroit River Tunnel Company, a subsidiary of the Canada Southern Railway. From the 1880s until 1975 Canada Southern was a subsidiary of the Michigan Central Railroad Company. In 1975 Canada Southern was conveyed from Michigan Central to Conrail. In 1985 Conrail sold Canada Southern to Canadian Pacific and Canadian National. Conrail retained MC Depot. They then sold the depot to a company called Kaybee Corporation run by William Spencer. This would have been in 85 or 86. Conrail moved out in 87 and Amtrak in 88 Regards C.A.Quail |
